Thanks Brain, I read it a long time ago but it seems like helpful information has been added.

Do you always dismiss his complaints?

It is pretty disrespectful to get put off a day and then not get called on-time.

Your husband may be using this as an excuse. Or he may genuinely be put off by what happened.

Don't DJ him by suggesting you know your husband's motives. After all, do you want your husband to assume he knows your motives? Probably not.

I'd approach this another way. Take what your husband says at face value. Ask him what would make him enthusiastic about working with Steve again.

Would he consider Jennifer instead of Steve?

If the call was rescheduled and then was late by two hours, I think your husband has a serious complaint that Steve needs to work to address to their mutual satisfaction.

I wouldn't discount what your husband is saying. As you said, your husband seemed to enjoy his work with Steve at first.

I would be seriously put off if someone did that to me, FWIW.

Good comments, thanks EE. Thanks for the observation that I was dismissing him, I need to be called out on that stuff, I do it without noticing.

I agree, it was frustrating and a valid complaint. My frustration is that I would really like to do MB style counseling but after that experience my H has written off everything MB. I have asked him what is needed to make him enthusiastic about it and he won't negotiate, he just says it's not happening but that he would go to a non-MB counselor face-to-face.

Are you enthusiastic about that?

No, and that's where we are stuck. He wants anything but MB and I want MB. I have not figured out a way to get us past that.

Honestly, I think if I found a face-to-face person who uses MB but didn't ask my husband to read a book or POJA right away, he'd be okay with it. But, it feels a little weird to start calling counselors and saying, "Do you use MB? Are you good at it?"

Weird? If it helps save your marriage isn't worth it?

Also this.

Your H has a long history of engaging in behaviors that are destructive to M, to the point that Dr Harley has told you not to have children with this man unless these problems are resolved.

You didn't ruin this by DJing him about MB. He has maitained a SSL as long as you have posted here and has flat-out rejected POJA (through his words & actions). This is the type of person who is not going to want to implement MB. We see this on the boards over and over and over again with waywards who do not want to change...

I know that you posted back in March that he "agreed POJA was a good idea" but in that same post you said that he was viewing porn and that he changed all of his passwords when you confronted him about it. This is a good example of ignoring what a person says and looking at their actions. His actions do not back up his words that he thinks "POJA is a good idea".

I don't think this is as complicated as you DJ'ing your H to do some of these things or that he has electric fence personality, etc. It is pretty simple, he is a manipulator, a deceiver and a gaslighter (ex, telling you that you are needy when you tell him you need your ENs met or calling you paranoid or jealous etc).

Counseling with this type of person is going to be a complete disaster so I wouldn't go down that route unless the counselor is 100% on board with MB principals but my guess is if they are, that he will find a reason to reject that counselor anyway.

Sorry to be harsh but you have been posting here for quite a while without any improvement and your posts are full of red flags of someone who has been gaslighted.

You should listen to what Susie has been telling you consistently in this thread about your H's SSL, and you should dismiss the post about his "valid complaint" about Steve being late with the call. If he thought that what Steve said was that good, he would not use the lateness of a call as an excuse never again to have anything more to do with MB. He is using Steve's lateness as an excuse not to do MB, not to use POJA and not to change his behaviour and consider your feelings. He is hoping that you can find a non-MB counsellor who will validate his feelings and help you to communicate your desires to each other as a couple, right to the point where you learn to accept that you are the one with the problem and that you need to be respectful of your H's destructive behaviour.

Remember that you also wrote about his consulting Steve:

The part of himself that he does not want to give up is his SSL. Susie is right; he is gaslighting you, big time.

Okay, so is it gas lighting if he seems to sort of flip back and forth between wanting his SSL and wanting to fix our marriage? It feels like I get glimmers of hope and then they fade away, is that all part of gas lighting?

I had a break down this morning. A million things have piled up over the past two weeks and this was the straw that broke the camel's back. I was doing bills before he left for work and saw that in the past 5 days he has spent $160 on lunches and asked him about it. He said it was because the lunch area is being renovated so he has had to eat out, which is fine, but I there are plenty of places near his work that wouldn't cost that much for lunch. Instead he chooses the nicest restaurant in the area and has a beer with lunch (I have the receipts so he isn't buying other people lunch). We aren't broke but we aren't rolling in the dough either.

I said, "is there a way that you could spend less on lunches while this is happening? Can I get you things you could eat at your desk, could you take a cooler, could you go to Subway, or some other option?"

He went into this sarcastic tangent saying, "Oh we're sooo broke we can't afford for me to spend $30 on lunch for two weeks or else the world will end."

Tears started running down my face because I am at the end of my fuse and I said, "I am so tired of having to argue with you to get you to even consider another option. I am not trying to ruin your life. Why can't we just have a discussion? I'm so over this." Something flipped in him and he immediately felt bad and started saying, "I'm sorry, I know I have a lot to work on, I know you are the most important thing in my life and I need to treat you like that, I'm sorry." I said, "I don't want to have to cry to get you to change your approach." He was like, "I know, I know, I really need to change this."

If only I could turn that into him giving MB another shot.

I feel for you Penni - your desire to have him want to be a better man is palpable...and tragic.

You can't place too much store by these isolated incidents, though, and they do not counteract the prevailing narrative presented on your thread.

He says he needs to change things, but is unwilling to actually commit to a plan to help him do so.

You cannot force him to be a better husband to you, or bring it about by sheer will.

Him apologizing immediately is his way to continue to gaslig

This article might help you make a decision: When to Call It Quits - Part 1
In addition to this excellent article here are some excellent radio clips on this.

Please listen to these radio clips on what are the reasons for divorce.

Radio clip at 5:45 When to call it quits
Segment #2

Brain, yes, people have posted the when to call it quits article to me a lot. Steve Harley told me that he thought if my H continued down his same path, I'd eventually want a divorce, but I am not there yet. Although there are many issues, our UA time is often great. When we go away together or have a day of fun planned, it's pure bliss. It's the day to day life decisions that are really frustrating. I think I am blessed/cursed with the ability to not hold a grudge so even if Monday was terrible, I can enjoy Tuesday with my hubby. Sometimes I wish I could stay mad for long enough to really get his attention. It's just not in my nature.

Early on, I used to threaten to end things but I could never follow through. At some point, I vowed to not threaten it until I was really, really sure I was done. I'm not done at this point.

Kerala, thanks for your post. You know, in all other areas of my life my perseverance suits me well, my career is really good because of it. But, you have triggered a thought for me. Maybe I can just point out the fact that he says he wants to change but he isn't taking any steps to change. It seems obvious but we haven't verbalized it.

If you've threatened to end things and never did he doesn't take you seriously and still doesn't.

When someone has no consequences to their actions they don't learn and don't change.

He has no reason to believe you're serious.

Do you not believe you deserve to have a fantastic marriage?

You should listen to this radio clip the BW is pregnant and her WH's OW is pregnant. The BW and WH do not live together. Dr. Harley says if both spouses are on board with MB in 35+ years it has always worked. If both aren't on board it will not work.
Radio clip

Yes, I believe I deserve a fantastic marriage but I also believe in avoiding divorce. If I do what is suggested in the when to call it quits article, it means there is a possibility of divorce, I'd have to follow through if he didn't agree to my terms. He is so averse to feeling pushed into something or threatened that I am 95% certain that if I did it, he would divorce me. He'd regret it later, but he would do it. I am not ready to follow through on divorce right now, but I am getting closer.

Thanks Brain. My H really wants us to start trying to have a child and I can't do it until we have fixed this stuff. Maybe that is my point of leverage.

So how long are you willing to put up with this?

Do you have a date set?

Are you on BC to avoid getting pregnant? Especially after what Dr. H told you?

I am on BC.

I really want to have kids too but am not willing under these conditions. That should be my motivation for figuring this out, I am in my early 30's, I am no spring chicken.

So, here is my plan. He has to get on board by the end of the summer and he has to be really making changes by January 1 or I am going to need to end it. That would still allow be enough time to meet someone else and have a child in my late 30s.

To not T/J the other thread.

Here's another clip on IB.
Radio clip on IB