Driven2,

Unfortunately I have become a master of WW fog-speak and it is like it is from a script it is so similar. The perception by the WW that you are trying to manipulate and control the WW seems typical. AOs also seem typical. For example, yesterday I ask WW if she found someone to feed our cat while we are away, and she says yes. I then ask her who, and she responds with an angry "what, this is an interrogation!?" I told her only wanted to know who to give the keys to is all. Turns out she actually has not found anyone to feed the cat, etc.

Like MelodyLane said, don't argue with her ever, don't feel the need to always correct her, recogninze her feelings without agreeing.

Blackhawk

And good job on the book!

Good point, thank you for the reminder on that. It's hard. My instinct to argue or correct is hard to overcome when she says something that really pains me.

The other day she was insisting on doing something with DD12 without including me and referred to her as "...MY daughter..." and just instinctively replied "you mean OUR daughter..."

So what do I do if she reads the two MB books and says she's not interested in doing any of it and is not willing to work with Steve by phone?

What if she continues to take the position that "This is the best I can do right now. If that's not good enough for you, I don't know what to tell you..." ?

I feel like I'm up against a time deadline for three important reasons: 1) I've been in a "Plan A" of sorts (even though there has been no contact for a year) for 15 months -- and I'm totally exhausted. I can't keep doing this. 2) Once her FIL's house sells, she will for the first time have the financial means to leave, and to fight a custody battle. This could be weeks, this could be months from now. 3) There are only two months left of summer. If I ultimately make the decision to file for divorce, logistics related to the children would be much easier.

Major update this morning, have to tell someone. I'm still in shock, but FWW and I actually had SF last night. Hasn't happened in 11.5 months. Mind you, she hasn't allowed any physical contact at all since D-Day, with very few exceptions. In recent months she has reluctantly allowed me to hold her hand for a few minutes if we our out on a date. Very rarely she will reluctantly acquiesce to receiving a foot rub in bed at night.

Anticipate things will be business as usual this morning in her behavior towards me, but this event feels like a major milestone.

Can anyone else relate to having had NO intimacy whatsoever with a WS for a year?

If so, how did SF progress back to normalcy in your story? Instantly? Over a long period of time?

I am happy for you;
But I really think that your wife is depressed? Does she see a doctor?
Sleeping in the same bed and not having sex for a year is not normal.
You are becoming so affected by her that you're happy you had sex after 11.5 months of no sex?

At this rate, you will have sex 7 more times before your oldset daughter turns 18.

Is that how you want to live your life?

Do you want your daughters to see a marriage where the husband bends over backwards for his wife that refuses to love him? Is that the kind of quality you want them to see in a mate?

I'm curious to know what the vets on here say because I think she is either depressed OR in an affair. Dr Harley says depression lasts up to 6 months (or so I thought).

You ask what to do if she refuses to participate in rebuilding your marriage? YOU are the betrayed spouse. YOU set the standards for remaining married; NOT HER. I almost let my wife control everything but Melody kept saying, "tell her that she must agree to abc, you will not remain in a loveless marriage"

I'm geting divorced after setting boundaries and ultimatums and I'm glad I did. I would rather be a single father of 3 kids than be a married father for the rest of my life with a wife that refuses to love me

Following D-Day 15 months ago I was convinced she was depressed but now I know she was deep in wayward fog (a phenomenon that really needs a formal, clinical status). I'm fairly experienced with depression and anxiety from my own life experience and educational background, so I don't believe it's a factor in my current situation.


Totally agree it's not normal. She's been in total "withdrawal" mode for 15 months. I'm anything but happy about that.


Absolutely not, no and no. In fact, the behavior observed by my children is something I take so seriously that I have strongly considered ending my marriage to protect them from exposure to the behaviors modeled by my FWW.


I discovered MB and this forum WAY too late in the process. I also believed we were getting specialized, expert advice from a nationally-renown expert on affairs and affair recovery (Rick Reynolds, Affair Recovery). Their approach is very different and is focused on healing from the affair rather than fixing the marriage as a whole.

I did lay down a list of ultimatums shortly after D-day, but they were all related to the affair itself and to other behaviors that were extremely destructive to our marriage and family.

The practice of giving your spouse an ultimatum to "Be loving to me and work your A** off to fix this marriage else I'll divorce you" is one I've not encountered anywhere else.


I'm sorry to hear that your situation is turning out as you'd hoped. It would be really helpful to me if you could share how you went about setting boundaries and ultimatums with your wife. In hindsight, is there anything you would have done differently?

Of course you are happy to finally have SF, it's like a major breakthrough...if it lasts. I hope things continue to progress for you.

I don't know where the other poster got the idea that depression lasts six months. Depression can last a short time or a lifetime, it depends on how severe it is and how it's dealt with (or not). There's not a one size fits all diagnosis! If she does have depression, it should be addressed with her doctor.

Your questions were very good to this poster, BTW, will wait to see the answers...

I would be careful about "setting ultimatums." If she does test that ultimatum, well you better follow through with what you said would be the "or else" or you will be like a mini UN Security Counsel in Iraq in the mid-90s! Instead I would try to persuade her that using MB and being in love with the biological father of her kids is in her best interest and will result in her greatest happiness and that you have learned of a plan to help make that happen, i.e. MB. Steve can help you formulate how to sell this ideal to her. There are no guarantees of course that she will buy-in, but you try to get her to see that it is in her own best interest to try and have a romantic M with you.

That being said, I fully agree with what HDW wrote. You have to have high boundries for what you want in your M and you should not settle for a loveless marriage. The question is how long will you give her to get onboard before moving forward with what is next which is seperation, i.e. a plan B approach. She does need to understand tha you will not settle for anything less than a romantic loving marriage and you are willing to do what it takes to make that a reality and meet her ENs like you did not do before. But she has to get on board and participate for it to work.

On your SF question, I think this is extremely positive. I think it shows you have been doing something right. Are you getting consistent UA time together? I assume this is the catalyst for SF. This is what is killing my situation, my WW refuses to have UAT! When we did, together with working with Steve, we had 2 great months of SF that was as frequent as when we started dating (sorry if too much info!). She shut it down in late February though and we have now backslid into this limbo I described to you on my thread.

This is what Dr. Harley says about depression following the ending of an affair:

" But, as you have already discovered, the first few weeks of separation from a lover are very painful. You are addicted to your lover, and separation from the object of your addiction has triggered symptoms of withdrawal -- a compulsive craving for him with intense feelings of anxiety and depression. However, if you completely avoid seeing or communicating with your lover, those feelings of anxiety and depression will gradually fade. For most people they fade in a few weeks"

I made the following demand: Follow the MB program.

She waffled on the No Contact letter. wanted to write it "her way." Three drafts, all rejected by me.
Finally she copied the letter from MB and gave it to me.

But I had filed for divorce when her affair started and I refused to withdraw the lawsuit until I knew she was on board.

She got an attorney (paid for by her enabling father) and then went back into a relationship with OM.

Her wayward life spiraled out of control.

MB gave me a plan to work with. I also used AlAnon principles to help me through this ROLLER COASTER through HELL. But I would be much worse off without the MB plan.

The thing to remember is that YOU need to control the Recovery Ship. If you allow your wife (in a depressed wayward foggy mind) to control the helm of your marriage you WILL CRASH into the rocks! Dont allow a crazy person to run the hospital!

That is when depression is due to an affair or other bad behavior. There are other causes for depression such as chemical imbalance. Some depressions are short term, some are long term, particularly when they are not addressed and the person has not sought medical help. My mother is a prime example.

OK, have more questions for the room..

Conflicts keep coming up that have the potential for major arguments and major setbacks. We have a long list of things that need to be discussed, aired, debated and decided; things that have essentially been "tabled" to keep the peace and to facilitate progress. Given where we are in the recovery process (if we are even there) I'm worried that bringing these things up will risk a setback. Unfortunately some things are time sensitive and can't wait another 3 months until my FWW is on board with MB and the POJA...

As an update, FWW has read LB book, and is 1/2 way through HNHN. No decision yet about whether she will talk to Steve by phone.

Here's an example that came up last night. There are two weddings on the horizon that both involve women who were actively supportive of FWW's affair and decision (at the time) to destroy her family by leaving the marriage. One is a friend and former employee of our business, the other is a half niece. The niece offered to let FWW use her phone to communicate with POS, the friend actually gave her a secret cell phone to use and also volunteered her boyfriend to help FWW move out of our house.

The "niece" is a piece of work. She is married to a registered sex offender whom we've never met who is getting out of jail soon. They were married by a JP while he was in jail and now she wants to have a "real" wedding. No doubt she expects my wife and daughters to participate in it.

FWW's "friend" also expects my wife and daughters to participate in her wedding. She is also having a bachelor party and wants my wife to organize it.

Naturally, my position is No FN Way to any of it.

Last night while out with me for dinner, FWW asks me if I care if she goes wedding dress shopping with "niece" on Saturday. I was very surprised by this as I didn't even know there was going to be a "wedding." My reaction was, "I don't really care if you go with her to shop for a dress, but our family's participation in a wedding is something we definitely need to talk about." Her response was "Don't be a Dic*!" We agreed it wasn't the right time to talk about it.

So:

1) Is it unreasonable of me to be strongly opposed to any participation by my FWW and family in these weddings? A bachelorette party?

2) Waiting weeks longer to deal with issues like these is not an option for me. How can I handle this without causing damage to progress in our marriage?

No it's not unreasonable to not want to have anything to do with anyone that enabled her affair.

POJA the weddings. If you aren't enthusiastic about it then it doesn't happen. You both have to be enthusiastic about it.

I'd be worried that she's ok with being around these enemies of your marriage.

Have you read these?
Trouble with POJA

Read all four letters.

Also here.
Radio clip on Trouble with POJA
Segment #2
Segment #3
Segment #4

Thanks BH. I would LOVE to follow the POJA, but she has not yet signed on to that. I'm hopeful we will get there soon but hard to say.

I read the letters you suggested, thanks for that.


Me too. The thing is, she doesn't view them as enemies of our marriage. In her mind, all these people "...had their own issues" with me prior to her affair so I can't possibly blame them for coming to her rescue and supporting her. I say BS.

Tell her honestly how you feel about the weddings/bachelorette party. "I don't want to go to these, and if you go it will be hurtful to me."

Then, let her decide. She may decide to go ahead and engage in her independent behavior. But you are laying the groundwork for joint decisions in the future. Be clear about the effect her actions will have on you, without being dramatic or pressuring or manipulative.

Yes, you are very right to be bothered by these.

Thanks Markos. This seems like a reasonable approach. The article by Dr. Harley clarifies things a bit more for me. I need to get the FILSIL book.

To me, the prospect of FWW doing something on her own (that I strongly disagree with) and she involving my children in something without my consent are two VERY different things however.

I wouldn't go for her calling you names, nor would I want to be in a marriage where you have to walk on eggshells or put up with things that hurt you. That's just me...