You have this backwards. Feelings FOLLOW ACTIONS. First you stop the behavior and then the feelings FOLLOW.

You can wake up TODAY and stop gawking. That has nothing to do with "working hard" or "making progress." That has everything to do with stopping it. NOW. TODAY. It is not a process. It is a decision you make TODAY.

Alcoholics don't continue to drink despite enormous desire. They don't wait until the desire goes away. They stop TODAY and eventually the desire goes away.

I asked you many posts ago if you stopped doing that and I still am not clear on that because you are not giving straight answers.

Did you stop it?

Please listen.

Radio clip of looking at other women

BH and ML:
I listened to the radio clip. Here are the notes I took:


Well, here�s the deal. I�m going to try to address ML�s question AND respond to Dr. H�s advice from MBRadio (Thanks, BH). As I mentioned at the top of my post, as part of my extraordinary precautions, we are limiting how often I go out in public; just as Dr. H recommends during the MBRadio blurb. In fact, that�s why I started this post: was to find recreational activities that we can both agree to that keep me out of highly populated places. I am not looking at porn or masturbating; just like Dr. H suggests in the radio blurb. I haven�t done either of those in almost 2 years. However, since working on our marriage (about a year now), I have been getting on the internet and looking at women�s pictures (fully clothed, non-porn, but still a love-buster � I get it). I have confessed that behavior to my W and I am ceasing doing that at work. As Dr. H recommends, I tried to install a key-logger on my PC at work (per wife�s request and my enthusiastic agreement ), but because I work for a large computer company with firewalls and strong anti-virus, it won�t let me install it. In fact it�s probably against their policy for me to put that on there. You can see that post in the Infidelity/Operation Investigate Forum. Maritalbliss says I should quit this job. I�m going to have to think about that.

Anyway, back to the topic�.

Getting over looking at other women for me is like alcoholism or giving up smoking. Y�all are right. I should stop it right now. Just like an alcoholic or smoker who is getting dry. The alcoholic occasionally relapses and they have to re-commit. That�s why I�m going to a 12-step program. For me--because there are women everywhere--it makes it REALLY hard to not see something that �catches my eye.� But I am getting better at stopping the looking and �drinking.� For example, today my W agreed (POJA) that I could go to the store without her. I did a really good job at not �scanning� and not �drinking� anything in. Today I was good. Tomorrow I want to be good, too. In fact, I want to be good for the rest of my life. I am constantly having a prayer in my head as I go out in public: �Father, help me keep focused. Help me not hurt my wife. Help me be a strong man.� I am turning my will over to God like it says to do in Step 3. So I am putting my heart, my mind, and my soul into killing this addiction.

I get it that if I �relapse� and gawk at a woman, that it is a choice. I get that. I also get that I am in control of my life and not a victim of [fill in the blank.. bad childhood, Asperger�s, W�s angry outbursts, etc.]. I get all that. All I�m trying to convey is that it is really hard to kick this addiction cold turkey. I�ve told my W that it�s like cutting off my arm: I�ve used it all my life. I�ve become accustomed to it. I like it. I want it there. But what I�m learning through the 12-step program is how to lop off my arm and trust God to be my arm. That�s what I�m doing. And I�m having faith that I�ll be successful. I might fall down, but I can get back up, dust myself off, and go my way �and sin no more.�

I hope that answers you question.

You mean the alcoholic who is not serious has relapses, right? The alcoholic who is serious does NOT relapse because they made a decision to stop it. The goal is to stop forever, not to "relapse occasionally." Is that how you rationalize your "relapses?"

People who don't quit cold turkey are looking for excuses to continue a bad habit. Cold turkey is always the only way. People who are not serious use ploys like "tapering" and other such nonsense. Smetimes their poor spouses even fall for that ploy.

The best way to stop bad habits is to make a decision to stop. It is not about "trying" or "making progress" but about STOPPING.

Melody<---------recovering alcoholic (27 years without a drink) and former smoker (14 years cigarette free) no relapses

Originally Posted By: Dr Bill Harley

"The habit of gawking at attractive women goes beyond my category of "annoying habits." I consider it to be "independent behavior" -- behaving as if your spouse doesn't exist. Many women are very offended when their husbands do more than just glance at an attractive woman, and so I encourage their husbands to practice looking away, especially when their wives are not with them. If that doesn't work, I encourage them to control their lifestyle so that tempting conditions are eliminated. In one case, I encouraged a couple I counseled to move away from a beach where the husband was simply unable to stop staring at bikini-clad women. It worked."

I don't know where you work and I haven't checked your other thread. But, how does your employer feel about your habit of "looking at women" (or any other non-work related activity) on their equipment? I should think they would want to be aware of this, if they arene't already, and work with you on helping you not have that access. It's a computer company? I bet they know how to install net-nanny on your system.

opt

I was thinking the same thing. Hopefulone, I would go to your IT department and just tell them you need to have non work related websites blocked because you are in the habit of looking at women on the internet. It is distracting and you want to remove the temptation. They could help you with that.

Some radio clips about gawking at women.
Radio clip about gawking #1
Radio clip on gawking #2
Radio clip #3

ML,

First off, I appreciate your help. I really do. If I come off unappreciatived or cocky, I apologize up front. I really do want help. I really do want to protect my wife's feelings. I really do want to my marriage to pass the romantic threshhold that Dr. H talks about. That's my goal.

Now back to the topic.



That's impressive. Good job! However, I have a few questions for you: (1) You NEVER relapsed?!? You stopped smoking and drinking THE MOMENT you decided to stop and never relapsed? Really?!?! If so, that's great. However, (2) why would they have 12-step programs if everyone was as able to quit as easily as you were? Are 12-step programs for the weak sissies of the world!?! And I'm including Foodaholics, Alcoholics, Drugaholics, Sexaholics, Anyholics here. Are all of those people who need help quitting just weak sissies with no backbone? If so, then I guess you're right and I, like all of them are "not serious."

ML,

Here's my response to your post quoting Dr. H regarding gawkers:



I agree.



I am doing exactly this. However, I admittedly am not perfect at looking away. This is what I'm using the 12-step program for. When I'm out in public without my spouse, I'm having to pray like I've never prayed before for God to help me not look twice and to help me not "scan" surroundings for something eye-catching. So I am doing exactly what Dr. H says: "practice looking away."



I(/we) am(/are) doing this as well. That's why I started this post - was to "control" where to go to do our recreational companionship during our 15-20 hours of time together. So "check" this one off the list also.

Were you imagining that these 12 step programs are intended for the purpose of tapering? If you were, you are sadly mistaken. The FIRST STEP in the AA program is about quitting drinking. It doesn't say "try" or "make progress," it means to QUIT DRINKING. NOW.

Only the first step is about drinking, all the rest of the steps are about correcting our living and thinking problem. And you can't do the rest of the steps until you have done the FIRST.

So, the first step is to STOP IT. Cold turkey.

When a new member shows up drunk at meetings, do you think they let him stay? No. They escort him out because a) he is disruptive and b) a person who is still engaging in his addiction cannot focus on the other 11 steps. It is a waste of time.

So I will say again that people who are serious do not have relapses. They don't give themselves permission. It sounds to me like you HAVE given yourself permission to fall on and off that bandwagon with weasel words like "trying" and "making progress." Nothing short of STOPPING IT is meaningful.

And how do you get out of the habit? You STOP IT.

The fact that you are arguing this very point with me tells me that you are not serious.

Optimism,



Obviously, me doing "non-work related" activities while at work is not good. However, as a salaried employee, I am paid to get my job done and they are pretty lax about allowing employees to use their equipment/internet for personal stuff:



So just looking at random pics of women is not considered "inappropriate" and is not a violation of corporate policy. However, it is a violation of POJA with my wife plus it's just not healthy, so I will not do it any more.


"that access" means the entire internet. IOW, I wasn't looking at anything objectionable, just random women - they are all over the internet. So I have to treat the random pretty women that show up in teeth whitening ads the same way I do pretty ladies filling up their tank with gas at the station. I'm having to retrain my brain to just not look. For me that's like quitting cocaine (not that I've ever done drugs or tried to quit, but they say that quitting "lust" is more difficult than quitting cocaine.)

As a huge computer company, they don't do that. I wish they could, but they don't work that way (onsie-twosie special & personal non-corporate apps for outlier employees - it would be like asking congress to grant you a special deduction on your taxes).

NEVER relapsed. And I have no willpower at all. When I got serious about quitting smoking and quitting drinking I never had another drink or a cigarette.

No willpower.

I know hundreds of people who did the same. All is takes is a serious decision. The problem in your case is that you have given yourself permission to relapse. You have a strategy of relapse, rather than a strategy of abstinence. As long as you keep giving yourself permission for the occasional relapse, you will never change your habits.

What I see here is a guy who probably just wants to get his wife off his back so he figures he can continue satisfying his addictions with the occasional "relapses" and shut her up at the same time. ["I'm trying, dear! I will just get back on the horse! All people relapse!" "I am making progress!"] All bullcrap.

I don't see a guy who is committed in any way, shape or form to complete and total abstinence. I see a guy who wants to get his wife off his back while he keeps getting a fix.

I betcha my company is bigger than yours and if I went into the IT office [or HR] and told them I have a problem gawking at women, they could help me come up with a solution to severely limit the websites on my computer.

See, only the FIRST STEP even addresses our drinking - all the rest are addressing our living problem for the purpose of maintaining sobriety. It was never intended to be a long, tapering method:

1.We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable.
2.Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3.Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4.Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5.Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6.Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7.Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8.Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9.Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10.Continued to take personal inventory, and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it.
11.Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
12.Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

Every company I've worked for has been pretty serious about blocking that kind of stuff at work. The bigger they were, the more serious they were about it.

Ten years ago I had an internet porn problem. But you didn't see me gawking at women on websites at work, because I was pretty sure they would FIRE ME if I did that. That was pretty good motivation!

Biggest line of BS I've ever heard (says the IT guy). No way any sizable "computer company" doesn't have a monitoring/filtering/blocking software or hardware package. Like saying salaried employees of Blue Cross/Blue Shield don't have health insurance.

I am in the program and my understanding is completely different from yours. To me, steps 1-11 are to help the addict retrain the brain and rely on God for help. Step 12 is to help others.

I'm not trying to give myself an excuse to keep doing it. I'm just admitting that I can't do this myself and I need divine intervention. The program is teaching me how to obtain that divine intervention.

I am stopping. I'd like to say I'll never do it again. Unlike drinking or smoking, my addiction happens to be everywhere - church, store, work, EVERYWHERE. When I see something that catches my attention (pretty lady), I have to (1) look away QUICKLY and (2) not look again. I AM doing this. I pray for strength every day to KEEP doing this.

Can I be perfect at doing this for the rest of my life? I hope so, but I don't claim to be perfect. Is being imperfect "tapering?" I don't believe so, I believe it's the human condition. We all sin (Romans 3:23). And that�s why there�s a Savior � because we need saving. I'd like to say that I'll never sin again - but I'm not that naive.

Am I giving myself an out or an excuse? No - I'm just admitting that I am a man - I have a natural attraction to women. I am having to learn to bound that natural force EVEN MORE than most men because I've gone so far out of bounds (porn) that even JUST SEEING at a pretty woman for me trips the adrenaline, dopamine, and serotonin response. I �spose it would be like putting a dropper full of alcohol on the tongue of a recovering alcoholic.

Or here's another example: Do you eat 100% healthy foods every day in the right quantity? Do you ever "slip up" and eat a little more than you should? Do you ever "indulge" only to curse yourself the next day?

Unlike alcohol or cigarettes (un-natural, human concocted) food and sex are necessary and healthy. So I feel like you telling me "just stop" is like me telling a recovering food addict to eat perfectly every day for the rest of their life. Sure it's the right thing to do, and they need to do it. But will that food-addict be perfect every day?

Hopefully.