ML & all: I'm not ignoring you. I've started typing up a response to this question, but I'm going to put it in a new thread specifically for the topic of me stopping looking at other women. I figured that "Date Ideas???" is probably a misleading thread name. So more details to come.

I would keep it on this thread and just change this thread title.

1Hopefulguy, how are you doing?

The radio show today had a good piece on gawking at women that would be helpful to you and your wife. If you click on the radio broadcast link and click on rebroadcast it will be replayed until the next show on Wednesday at noon. [it will be in the archives next week]

Sorry I missed it, but I'll download it when it goes to the archives.

I came up with a technique... well, more like.... God inspired me with a new technique that I'll share here.

Before I was trying to just "look away" whenever a female crossed my path. But after my wife slapped me for glancing away, the following technique popped into my head:

I now "target" a specific thing when I'm out and about. If I am walking, I'll "target" something above my head (the M in McDonald's or the "E" in Exit), then before I pass it up, I'll target a new object. It's kinda like Spiderman's web-slinging. So far it's been very helpful in keeping me from "scanning".

(Note: When my wife slapped me, we were going through a drive-thru. I was in the passenger seat. When we pulled up to the window, I glanced over toward the female server at the window. I didn't stare, or ogle, or gawk... I just glanced over. I didn't even see who the cashier was or what she looked like. But just the fact that I "scanned" sent my wife into a tailspin. She wanted to show me how it feels to her when I scan for "something shiny". I understand how it can be painful to her to have me "scanning." I personally don't think it warrants a slap on my face, but I know she was hurting and wanted me to feel what she was feeling. I don't want to keep hurting her. That's why I came up with this technique. Rather than just struggling to NOT LOOK at things (what happens when someone tells you "Don't look!" ???), I now focus on something specific. So rather than going through a drive-thru and saying to myself "don't look, don't look, don't look", I now look at my right shoelace, or the Ford symbol on the dash, or something specific. So far it's working really well. It's a brain drain to constantly have to keep my eyes/brain busy, but it's worth it the effort.)

Also ML, I know that this forum doesn't allow external links, but I'd like you to read this article:

The new quitter: http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/201007/the-new-quitter

It refers to a lot of what you and I were "arguing" over. If the moderators delete the link, perhaps you can ask them to email it to you personally. I'd like to know what Dr. Harley thinks about the article.

Oh - my W wants me to tell everyone my joke. I told her that sometimes I don't trust the advice given in the forum because even though you "experts" are great, you're not Dr. H. She asked, "So you only trust Dr. H?" I told her that I believe Dr. Harley is the 4th member of the Godhead: Father, Son, HG, and Dr. H... I call it "The Quadrinity"

Why don't you email Dr. H about the article? Since he's the 4th member.

Oh I see. So your goal is failure? You are searching for articles that say that quitting addictions cannot be done. Well guess what? You are speaking to a recovering alcoholic who has been dry for 27 years and a reformed smoker who quit 14 years ago so we know it can be done. I am the PROOF of that. Do you know how I did it?

I did not seek out people who FAILED, I sought out people who SUCCEEDED. We all know how to fail, don't we? That is no great feat. Any [censored] can do that. But if we are sincere about succeeding, we will seek out those who have been successful and follow their path.

You already know how to fail. Do you want to know how to succeed? Because it sounds to me like that is your goal.

I am disappointed that you latched onto that article that justifies failures. I am sad that your wife has to live with your thoughtless behavior.

She should be disappointed that you are seeking out failures to emulate rather than winners.

I should add that only 10% of alcoholics die sober. The rest NEVER sober up. So I agree with the article that relapse is the rule rather than the exception.

FAILURE is the rule rather than the exception.

But winners don't strive to fail, as you are doing. If your strategy is to relapse, as it appears, then you will fail. I think your wife should understand that this is your strategy to justify continual relapses.

Like they told me when I joined AA in 1985: stick with the winners. I have followed that advice and have never had a relapse in 27 years.

Your wife should not put up with a spouse who has a goal of relapse and failure.

It is blasphemy to equate Dr Harley with the Holy Trinity Even as a joke

The Bible says that all have sinned and that the heart of man is desperately wicked.
We are commanded to repent of our ways and be baptized.
Repent means to have a change of mind.
If your wife is now slapping you then your marriage is going downward fast.

I encourage you to pray the Jesus prayer throughout the day:
"Lord Jesus, Son of God, have mercy on me"
Pray when you are tempted.

1hopefulguy, how much longer is your wife supposed to endure the indignity of your gawking at women while you pursue new and creative excuses to avoid stopping it?

I have to say that in 27 years of attending AA meetings, I have never heard of a person who used the excuse that they could not stop until they had made it through the 12 steps. That notion would be laughed out of any AA meeting because they would see right through it. Nor would anyone there tolerate your program of relapse.

Winners don't seek excuses to relapse, they seek winning strategies. I give you kudos for the creative bullsh**, but that is all it is. Bullsh**.

I would encourage your wife to stop tolerating the nonsense and hold you accountable. Your sicko behavior must hurt her terribly and instead of focusing on making changes, you focus on manufacturing excuses.

She should make plans to kick you to the curb until you get serious.

And to the wife of 1hopefulguy: your husband is playing games with you. He is not in the least bit serious about quitting. Everything he is doing is window dressing to get you off his back.

ML,
I really do appreciate your feedback. I really do. I just don't know if you really understand the difference between giving up alcohol and cigarettes and a man giving up lust. You think you do, but by your condescending tone, I think you have no idea what you're talking about.

When you've gone to AA or smokers Anonymous has everyone there quit cold turkey? and never gone back? So it's a meeting for perfect people who never have any relapses? Really?!?!

Are you saying that only those who never relapse are really trying?!?!? Really?!?!?! The rest of the folks who struggle to quit over a period of time are losers? Just window dressing? Really!?!?

I have committed to stopping. I am not going places by myself. I have implemented my new "targeting" technique to help me stop "scanning". I am praying for help. I am going to a 12-step program. I am stopping.

But alas - I am not perfect. I have gone almost 2 weeks without a double take. I feel like I am learning to not even notice other women. It's not an easy thing to do for ANY man. Ask your husband!

I am not looking for excuses to relapse. I'm just telling you that your view of addiction recovery is bullsh**. By you telling me that I'm a loser because I'm not perfect is bullsh**. I am not Jesus Christ. I am not perfect. I feel like I am making tremendous progress, but you seem to think that progress isn't an option - only perfection. I just don't get your perspective.

Can you show me somewhere where addiction recovery means instant perfection? Never falling back down?!?

Why the freak is there a 12-step program if it's so easy to just stop it?!?! Why are there couselors?!?! Why the heck is there a savior?!?! I don't get you. I really don't.

I'm proud of my progress. I wish I didn't struggle with scanning and looking at other women. I wish I never polluted my brain with years of porn. I feel like crap that I chose that path. Now that I am trying to save my marriage, I am giving up lust. I'm doing it. I'm sorry to you and I'm sorry to my wife that It's a struggle for me. I don't expect my wife to put up with it. That's why I'm quitting.

I'm almost two weeks "sober" (no looking, glancing, or scanning). I'm going for three. Can you please pray for me instead of cursing me? I'd appreciate it.

More endless excuses about why you can't quit. Are you saying now that only Jesus Christ can recover from addictions?

I am telling you that your view of recovery is bullsh**. After all, I *AM* recovered; you are NOT. So who knows better how to recover? Someone who is NOT recovered, who is committed to a program of RELAPSE or someone who has been recovered for 27 years?

And see, I have an addiction - YOU DON'T. You just have a habit of gawking that you are prolonging by going to 12 Step meetings as a means of dragging out your bad habit. Habits are much easier to break than addictions.

I don't believe for one minute you even have an "addiction." You are just a gawker like any other man. And other men stop it every day.


My prayers are all for your wife, not you. I dearly hope you stop playing games with your gawking habit for her sake. You will get my support when you abandon the excuses and stop posting lame articles about how losers engage in the game of relapse. You already know how to relapse.

Your wife should not have to tolerate your games.



You don't even understand the purpose of 12 step programs or what they do there. Of course people quit cold turkey. Most do.

Why would you choose to identify with and emulate the relapsers instead of the winners if not as a means to continue your cruel and harmful behavior?

Why aren't you posting articles about the ones who NEVER relapse? Not too interested in them, are ya?

Why don't you explain to me what the purpose of AA is?

A sincere person has the goal of complete ABSTINENCE. They don't have a goal of relapse. Sure, people do relapse, but that is not their goal. It is YOURS.

To the wife of 1Hopefulguy, please take the time to write Dr Harley about your husband's gawking habit. He has managed to cloak his thoughtless habit in the world of psychobabble, calling it an "addiction" and all that comes with it.

Ask Dr Harley what you should do with a husband who refuses to stop gawking and instead runs off to "counseling" and 12 Step programs to prolong his bad habits. Ask him what you should do about a husband who hurts you continuously with his bad habits.

I predict he may tell you to separate.

Agree.

I can't imagine a poor wife having to live under these conditions.

I'm not "refusing to stop" I am stopping. Why do you keep saying I refuse to stop?!?! I'm doing it. Like I said, I've gone two weeks without doing a double-take. I think I'm doing pretty good.

Also, regarding your statements

and...



Are you an expert at the difference between a habit and an addiction? What gives you the right to diagnose me or my behavior. I think women have no idea what it's like to be a man and overcome a lust addiction. So I don't think you have a leg to stand on in differentiating between a habit and an addiction - especially when it comes to the male brain. I would trust your husband's advice more than yours - assuming he's one of the "winners" you're referring to who doesn't ever look at other women. But he may also be double-taking without you even knowing it.

I am going to turn my two weeks into three regardless of whether it's a habit or an addiction; with your support or without it. I know you want me to give up on my progress and my marriage. I'm not going to.

You and the other women on this thread just bash me. No advice, no useful URL's, no recommended reading, just bashing me. Can you please be helpful instead of just saying "your poor wife - she should leave you" ?? That's not helpful.

How were these not helpful? These are straight from Dr. Harley as the article that Mel posted to you.

How are we not helping? Is this a way of deflecting back on us?

Did you even listen to these that I posted back on 10-28-12? I take alot of time to find this kind of help for you.

With your next relapse already planned, justified and excused.


No, but Dr Harley is and this is just a bad habit according to him. There are a plethora of posts over on the private forum where he has told men to stop it. They stopped it. Of course one does not have to be an "expert" to know that gawking is a bad habit. You can call it an "addiction," a bad habit or a dog fart. Its all the same, bad behavior is bad behavior.

What matters is that you can change bad behavior if you choose to.


More excuses. You are an endless fountain of excuses for why you can't make it. Now your excuse is you have "male brain" and women can't understand. Really? That's not even creative.

You are talking to someone who has broken several REAL addictions [and bad habits] so that dog won't hunt. I also know hundreds of MEN who have been sober over 20 years in AA. Know scads of men on this very forum who overcame their gawking behavior and porn habit too.

I could say to you "I think non-alcoholics have no idea what its like to be an alcoholic and overcome an alcohol addiction."

But anyone would recognize that for the excuse it really is.


It is useful to your wife to get away from someone who is not in the least serious about changing his destructive habits. How do you think it makes it her feel to see you post articles on relapse here? Do you think that gives her any hope? Do you understand how destructive your behavior has been to her emotional well being?

What is not "helpful" is your program of relapse, Sir.


Here is some useful advice: stop making excuses for your relapses and get serious.

A person who is serious about changing his bad habits does not seek out the lowest common denominator; he seeks out the highest common denominator. A sincere person is not planning his next relapse and posting carefully selected articles to justify it. I know why you would rather focus on relapsers than successful people.

You might think you are fooling people but you are not.

I will add that there is a saying in AA about people who relapse. The next "relapse" might be the one where you don't make it back. And that is very true with most alcoholics. Only 10% ever make it. In your case, your wife is bound to get fed up with your games and take her leave. I know I would. Gawking is a habit that can be broken and your wife knows that.

But that is ok, I can see your attitude and am not interested in posting to you anymore. My interest is in speaking to your wife and getting her the help she needs so she can protect herself from you. Can you send her here, please?

Now you are starting to sound like Bill Clinton. Everybody else does it, huh?

It depends on what the meaning of the word "is" is...... lol

Brainhurts,

Yes, I've been listening to the MBRadio links. And I've now read 3 of Dr. H's books.

In these MBRadio blurbs, Dr. Harley mentions 3 seconds. He also talks about "prolonged" looking. None of my glances are for more than about 1/4 of a second - definately not "prolonged." What frustrates my wife is that I have a habit of scanning. Regardless of whether or not I even find a "victim", the fact that I might look around for one triggers her. That's what I'm trying to stop. I don't think I've looked at another woman for more than 3 seconds probably since 3 months ago (other than talking to women like at church or parent teacher conference in which case I looked in their eyes). So per Dr. H�s 3 second rule, I�m not gawking, nor have I gawked in 3 months.

In the 10-28-10-2A rebroadcast, Dr. Harley compares gawking to porn or strip clubs. Yet ML says it's "just a bad habit." Perhaps many men look at porn as a time-passer, but I'll bet 99% of the men who look at porn ARE ADDICTS (per clinical definition). It's not just a habit. But whatever. ML can keep on demeaning me by saying "it's just a habit and you're a baby." Whatever!

Dr. H also says "glance and look away".. I AM DOING THAT. In fact, I'm now working on not even glancing... not even noticing. I�m focusing on targets that are away from people so I don�t even see something that I would want to look at. I call that EXTRAORDINARY PRECAUTIONS. ML, do you still think Dr. H would recommend separation?

I think I'm doing pretty darn well. The double-take I did two weeks ago was probably 1 sec. The incident in which I was slapped, I didn't ever actually see the server at the drive-thru, but my wife saw me turning my head to see - which is a trigger for her (and I understand that. I don't DJ her and tell her that it's OK... I admited that it's a LB, and developed my technique of "target practice" so it won't happen again). And I am ridding myself of that desire to even look around at my surroundings - regardless of whether there are women present or not.

So I AM DOING EXACTLY WHAT DR. HARLEY IS SAYING. SO ML, STICK THAT IN YOUR TOBACCO-FREE PIPE AND SMOKE IT!!!!