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Wow just wow.
Is this how you talk to your poor wife? Really? Stick it in your pipe? Wow.
Why would you not want to actually want to get help? Why say demeaning things to a poster who has almost 12 years of MB experience, worked the program and has a ROMANTIC marriage?
Is she saying truthful things that are hitting home? Someone who tries to "rationalize" against excellent advice must have his head in the sand.
Why don't you sign up for the online program and have Dr. H's help?
FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
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In the 10-28-10-2A rebroadcast, Dr. Harley compares gawking to porn or strip clubs. Yet ML says it's "just a bad habit." Perhaps many men look at porn as a time-passer, but I'll bet 99% of the men who look at porn ARE ADDICTS (per clinical definition). It's not just a habit. But whatever. ML can keep on demeaning me by saying "it's just a habit and you're a baby." Whatever! "The habit of gawking at attractive women goes beyond my category of "annoying habits." I consider it to be "independent behavior" -- behaving as if your spouse doesn't exist. Many women are very offended when their husbands do more than just glance at an attractive woman, and so I encourage their husbands to practice looking away, especially when their wives are not with them. If that doesn't work, I encourage them to control their lifestyle so that tempting conditions are eliminated. In one case, I encouraged a couple I counseled to move away from a beach where the husband was simply unable to stop staring at bikini-clad women. It worked." It's possible that your husband agrees to almost anything and then does what he pleases, but it's more likely that he intends to change, but doesn't think it's necessary to do anything to change his habits. Practicing looking away from attractive women when you are not around is a good exercise. nuf' said?  Dr. H also says "glance and look away".. I AM DOING THAT. In fact, I'm now working on not even glancing... not even noticing. I�m focusing on targets that are away from people so I don�t even see something that I would want to look at. I call that EXTRAORDINARY PRECAUTIONS. ML, do you still think Dr. H would recommend separation? That's great, but apparently, thats not enough for your wife since your "scanning" triggers her. But lets keep in mind that yours is a program of RELAPSE. You have posted articles here and fanatically defended relapses in a clintonesque manner. THAT is what your wife should be alarmed about. I think I'm doing pretty darn well. Defending relapses is not my idea of "doing pretty darn well."  It is playing russian roulette with your wife's emotions. It is a tactic of someone who has a program of relapses.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I know you want me to give up on my progress and my marriage. Ummm, no.  1HG, I have some experience with what you're going through. I've overcome a few habits in the last few years. porn (and yes, I'd say I had a bit of a relapse on that one; what finally put the screws to it was the "yourbrainonporn" link/information posted on this board. drinking( I wasn't a fallingdowndrunk but I "enjoyed" my IPA). angry outbursts (very damaging to my relationships). Latest project: cutting fat/cholesterol from my diet (there's an addiction for you -- the american diet is very harmful...and addictive) -- 10 weeks on that one so far. All these eliminations have generally geen a stuggle for a few weeks, but the cravings do go away. You have to recreate the pathways in your brain. It's not comfortable, but with the right MINDSET and MOTIVATION it is very achievable. As a deterrent, think of how much hurt you cause your wife when you give a second/third look at a woman. 12 weeks is when a behavior changed generally becomes a habit. A habit repeated becomes part of your character. opt
Me: 43 y.o. BFWH, D-day 11/11/09 (NC since 9/01) Divorce from WW final 9/16/10. Current Status: MB-based Marriage to Nature Girl 12/8/12 (first date on 12/11/10) Mine: S(16), D(11) NatureGirls: S(23), D(21) Another EA Story
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Brain, Is this how you talk to your poor wife? No. Certainly not. Especially not after learning about LB's!!! Why would you not want to actually want to get help? I want help. That's why I'm here! Why say demeaning things to a poster who has almost 12 years of MB experience, worked the program and has a ROMANTIC marriage? Because she says I'm not serious. She is saying things like: [Your wife] should make plans to kick you to the curb until you get serious. and [You are] not in the least bit serious about quitting I don't understand why she is saying that. I don't know how much more serious I can be. I agree with everything Harley says. I encourage their husbands to practice looking away, especially when their wives are not with them. If that doesn't work, I encourage them to control their lifestyle so that tempting conditions are eliminated. In one case, I encouraged a couple I counseled to move away from a beach where the husband was simply unable to stop staring at bikini-clad women. It worked." I am doing exactly that. I am limiting any going to places where there are lots of women without taking my wife (stores, malls, etc.). When I do go these places, I am using my "targeting" technique of looking at objects up and out of view so that I'm not even tempted to look. I don't know what else I can do. I've gone two weeks since I did a double-take (which was much much less than the 3 seconds Dr. H talks about.... but since I know it was a LB (Independent Behavior)... I'm committing to not doing that anymore.). I am going one day at a time, just like any addict in recovery. So I really don't know why ML keeps saying that I'm not serious and that my wife should leave me. Granted - if I keep double-taking - be it 3 seconds, 1 second, or .00001 second - my wife SHOULD kick me to the curb. I agree! But I AM NOT DOING IT ANYMORE! I'm stopping.. what would make ML stop saying that I'm not serious? What does ML want me to do that I'm not already doing.  Does she want me to quit going to my 12-step because 12-step programs are for people who don't take addiction seriously? Are my extraordinary precautions not extraordinary enough? I really don't understand why she keeps saying I'm not serious about quitting. Perhaps you can explain that to me. BTW - we are going to start doing the online program.
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Optimism, FINALLY, A VOICE OF REASON!!! Thanks for you post. I agree 100%. I am in the process of re-creating pathways in my brain. However, I'm going to be MelodyLane for a moment... You said: 12 weeks is when a behavior changed generally becomes a habit. A habit repeated becomes part of your character. ML would tell you that 12 weeks is "a program of RELAPSE". She would say that unless you STOP RIGHT NOW, that you are not serious. She would tell you that if you have a weak moment and eat a doughnut, that your goal is relapse and not abstinence. I agree with everything you wrote. I just don't understand why ML is saying that I'm not serious.
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Br
I don't understand why she is saying that. I don't know how much more serious I can be. I agree with everything Harley says. Suggestion. If you want to convince others how "serious" you are, then focus your efforts defending success instead of making lame excuses for relapse. When you stop focusing all your efforts defending relapses then folks will view you differently. Instead of looking for excuses to fail, why not find reasons to SUCCEED? Your goal of relapse does not send the message that you are very serious. I am doing exactly that. I am limiting any going to places where there are lots of women without taking my wife (stores, malls, etc.). When I do go these places, I am using my "targeting" technique of looking at objects up and out of view so that I'm not even tempted to look. I don't know what else I can do. Oh wait!! Didn't you tell us you "weren't Jesus Christ??" How about focusing 100% of your efforts on stopping the gawking and being a BETTER husband? Does your wife feel loved and cherished by you? How can you do a better job of meeting her needs? I can just imagine how hurtful it is to have your husband gawk at other women when you are right there - what can you do to make her feel like she is the MOST IMPORTANT AND CHERISHED woman in your life? If you did those things, I bet you wouldn't have time to diligently search for articles defending relapse and go on the internet and defend relapses with other members.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Optimism, FINALLY, A VOICE OF REASON!!! Thanks for you post. I agree 100%. I am in the process of re-creating pathways in my brain. However, I'm going to be MelodyLane for a moment... You said: 12 weeks is when a behavior changed generally becomes a habit. A habit repeated becomes part of your character. ML would tell you that 12 weeks is "a program of RELAPSE". She would say that unless you STOP RIGHT NOW, that you are not serious. She would tell you that if you have a weak moment and eat a doughnut, that your goal is relapse and not abstinence. I agree with everything you wrote. I just don't understand why ML is saying that I'm not serious. Once again, you are defending relapse. He did not say to "relapse for 12 weeks." He said it takes this long for the new behavior to become a HABIT. Sorry to let you down. I know you were hopeful you had been given the green light to relapse for 12 weeks. ummmmmmmm no And no, you are not serious.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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optimism, you can't say things like to this guy. He is so desperate to find ways to continue his bad habits that he will grasp onto ANY STRAW to justify his relapses. See how he twisted your words in giddy excitement thinking you had justified his relapses?  1hopefulguy, I have bad news for you, buddy. You retrain the brain by STOPPING THE BEHAVIOR, not by continuing the behavior. Every time you do the behavior again, you start over again. Sorry to take away your relapse card! 
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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12 weeks is when a behavior changed generally becomes a habit. A habit repeated becomes part of your character. The "habit repeated" is the NEW HABIT, not your old habit. Sorry for the let down...
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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ML, I know you said you were going to stop posting to me, so if you don't want to reply to this, that's your choice. But I have a question for you. What makes you say: But lets keep in mind that yours is a program of RELAPSE Why do you say that? What about "my program" indicates that I am planning on relapsing? In fact, what do you see as "my program"??? That article was sent to me by my accountability coach who wanted to show me that we are all human and getting over a habit/addiction isn't always a one-stop shop and that I shouldn't beat myself up or quit if I relapse, but use it as a learning experience. Repent, move on, and sin no more. You seem to interpret the article differently than that - and that's your prerogative. My plan is not to fail. My goal is abstinence. I am putting in place extraordinary precautions (not going to public places without my W, and doing my target practice technique). So why do you insist on telling me that I'm not serious?
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How about focusing 100% of your efforts on stopping the gawking and being a BETTER husband? That's EXACTLY what I'm doing! What in my posts is telling you that I'm not doing that?
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If your goal is abstinence, then why are you devoting all your time to the defense of relapse? Why not defend abstinence? What makes me say you are not serious is the multitude of posts on this thread defending relapse rather than abstinence. NEVER have I sponsored a woman in AA in 27 years who defended relapse as you have here. The only time I have seen such an abnormal focus on failure in AA is when a person was planning a relapse.
A person who plans on relapsing will excuse and rationalize relapse, just as you are doing here. A person who is serious about staying clean/sober/whatever will go to any length to stay that way.
You have not gone to great lengths to stay abstinent, rather you have gone to great lengths to defend relapses.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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How about focusing 100% of your efforts on stopping the gawking and being a BETTER husband? That's EXACTLY what I'm doing! What in my posts is telling you that I'm not doing that? No, you are not doing that! You are on the internet DEFENDING relapses. Were you not aware we can all read your posts?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Optimism, what finally put the screws to it was the "yourbrainonporn" link/information posted on this board. What/where is that?
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Getting over looking at other women for me is like alcoholism or Just like an alcoholic or smoker who is getting dry. The alcoholic occasionally relapses and they have to re-commit. That�s why I�m going to a 12-step program. Like you told me on 10-28, getting over gawking is just like alcoholism or smoking, "they occasionally have relapses and have to recommit." And since that post you have spent hours on here defending the practice of relapse.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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you have spent hours on here defending the practice of relapse I find it interesting that you are saying that I am defending relapse. My 10-28 statement merely states that relapse is common with recovering addicts. Is that a true or false? Please answer - I seriously want you to answer that. When you were quitting smoking and drinking were you able to kick it completely and forever the first time you tried quitting?? If so, I commend you. Good job. Would you admit that not everyone can stop the first time they decide to quit like you were able to do? It's just not human nature to be able to quit a habit or addiction the first time trying. Do you disagree? That's not an excuse, it's a fact! I'm not using that fact as an excuse - in fact, I'm using that fact to put in place extraordinary precautions like Dr. H says: knowing that it is a temptation and that I don't want to relapse, I now target objects up and above people so I'm not tempted to look at passers-by lest they attract my attention. I HAVE committed to stopping. I do not plan on any relapses. I am 2 weeks "dry." I re-commit to staying dry every day. Am I not being serious? If you STILL think I'm not serious, please help me understand what about my attitude I need to change. Or have someone else chime in here (Markos???) because you're seeing something I'm not seeing.
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Why not devote your time to your marriage instead of defending relapse? If you are not going to relapse then why waste your time with endless posts defending it? You have been doing this since 10-28 so surely you understand why others don't take you seriously?
Can you commit the same amount of effort to working on your marriage and adhering to complete abstinence?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Can you commit the same amount of effort to working on your marriage and adhering to complete abstinence? Deal!
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Optimism, what finally put the screws to it was the "yourbrainonporn" link/information posted on this board. What/where is that? **edit** Not hard footwork there... I won't link it out of respect to the owner of this site.
Last edited by MBLBanker; 12/03/12 04:56 AM. Reason: Removing reference to non-MB material
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr
"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer
"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Can you commit the same amount of effort to working on your marriage and adhering to complete abstinence? Deal! Great. Why don't you outline a few of the concrete steps you are going to take (or are taking currently) to eliminate the chances for "relapse." For instance, in my opinion t.v. is a great place to practice gawking at women - there are very few ugly ones and most of them can't even tell when you're checking out their frame (because they're on the other side of the plasma). So, how about reading a MB book instead? You could start with the chapter from Lovebusters about Disrespectful Judgements, because: However, I'm going to be MelodyLane for a moment... This is a massive LB. If you made comments like this about your wife you would be withdrawing love units by the pound-full. Dr. Harley talks about a man who couldn't stop looking at other women and it obviously was a LB to his wife. They lived by the beach. Do you know what the solution was? They moved. What are you doing to eliminate your encounters with other women in the community? Suggestion - when I'm with my fiance, I try to focus extra attention on her (not hard b/c she's beautiful); then I don't get distracted by some 20something with stretch pants. Could you put a picture of her in your car (8x10) and jump your vision to that every time you see a female? opt
Me: 43 y.o. BFWH, D-day 11/11/09 (NC since 9/01) Divorce from WW final 9/16/10. Current Status: MB-based Marriage to Nature Girl 12/8/12 (first date on 12/11/10) Mine: S(16), D(11) NatureGirls: S(23), D(21) Another EA Story
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