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Originally Posted by HerPapaBear
I'm calling this BS!

I mean really,
Have you looked up Bipolar Disorder? It fits too.

How about Narcissistic Personality Disorder? It definitely fits too.

What about Dissociative Disorder? It fits too.

The list goes on;

What about Fetishism or Impulse-Control Disorder or Hyperactive Sexual Desire Disorder.

Or Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder

Anyone that MIGHT have something causes my eyebrow to raise and I think BS.....

Is that specific enough.
To add to HPB's point:

The American Psychiatric Association has confirmed that when their new diagnostic manual is published next year, this manual (DSM 5) will not include the diagnosis "Asperger syndrome". This diagnosis has been de-classified as a separate and specific condition. People with associated behaviours will either be classified as having autism or not classified at all. The ASA also seem poised to throw out all the other "disorders" that HPB mentioned in his list, as there is grave doubt that these are "disorders" at all. They are appallingly anti-social behaviours that the individual can choose to stop. The behaviours are fully capable of being trained out of existence if the person who practices them wishes to retrain himself.

Dr Harley's programme is all about training us to do things that we find difficult and unnatural to do. Some of us take easily to the retraining and some of us find it immensely hard, but we need to focus on and practice new behaviours until they become habitual. That is what Marriage Builders is all about. We're most of us here because we have not instinctively practiced exercising extraordinary care and concern for our spouse. Our behaviours range from independent behaviour and thoughtlessness all the way to physical abuse and multiple affairs, but the problem is the same and the cure is the same:

STOP doing what hurts your spouse and repeatedly and consistently do what makes your spouse fall in love with you.

Diagnoses are a hindrance. They make us feel that we have a "condition" that explains our behaviour and that thus we have an excuse, which we don't.

STOP doing what hurts your spouse.

It's simple.


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Originally Posted by 1HopefulGuy
[
I think it was about that time is when I confessed that I had a habit of looking at other women. As I tried to stop looking at women, I realized that I wasn't able to just "stop it" and that even when there were no women in sight, I was constantly searching for them. I realized that I had a lust addiction that I couldn't kick without help and I decided to go to a 12-step Sexaholics Anonymous program.

I don't believe you can't "stop it" because you have told us here you HAVE stopped it. You had some relapses because you are under the impression that you are entitled to them. Like you told me on 10-28,
Originally Posted by 1hopefulguy
Getting over looking at other women for me is like alcoholism or giving up smoking. Y�all are right. I should stop it right now. Just like an alcoholic or smoker who is getting dry. The alcoholic occasionally relapses and they have to re-commit. That�s why I�m going to a 12-step program.

..these alcoholics and smokers have the occasional relapses and have to re-commit. And like I told you earlier, people who are serious about quitting don't focus on getting relapses, they focus on going to any length to stay abstinent.

It seems HerPapaBear, also a recovering alcoholic with 20+ years of sobriety smells the same BS that I do. And now you are playing the Aspergers card since the relapse card didn't work for you here. As Dr Harley has told others, focusing on labels like that is a distraction from changing bad behaviors. People use those labels as an excuse as I see it being used here.

Suggestion: you can't bullsh** a bullshi**er and this forum is full of BS artists. You might as well get honest and stop with the games. IT just won't work here.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Have you been diagnosed with a mental illness or disorder?

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I'll bet anything I have Asperger's, too. Mildly. It's rumored to be common among computer programmers.

And Dr. Harley said he could probably be diagnosed with ADHD or something like that (I'm going from memory off a radio show). Which is encouraging to me, because I'm sure Prisca and I have a son like that. Maybe more than one.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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I have a PISD disorder and a BNIS Disorder.
Dr Harley mentioned on today's show.
We can change our behaviors.

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Originally Posted by markos
I'll bet anything I have Asperger's, too. Mildly. It's rumored to be common among computer programmers.

And Dr. Harley said he could probably be diagnosed with ADHD or something like that (I'm going from memory off a radio show). Which is encouraging to me, because I'm sure Prisca and I have a son like that. Maybe more than one.


Males in general are five times as likely to be diagnosed with ADD/ADHD, usually during school age.

In fact, over the past 30 years, a cornicopia of mental, emotional, and/or behavioral "disorders" have been overwhelmingly diagnosed in... men. Before that, it was the opposite, with women being overwhelmingly diagnosed with "disorders."

My undereducated and unprofessional opinion; men and women are different.

Dr. Harley's impression; the differences between men and women are GOOD for marriage.

Last edited by HoldHerHand; 12/06/12 06:27 PM.

"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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POINT #1: �Get a diagnosis�
Quote
If you think you might have a medical condition you need to get it diagnosed and confirmed. If you're to fix what drives you to do the things you do you have to know definitively what it is so you can make the appropriate corrective action.

It�s pretty clear that I have Asperger�s (For SugarCane: I have an �Autistic Spectrum Disorder (ASD)�) My wife figured it out while trying to understand our 14-year-old�s odd behavior. We�ve known for years that something was odd about many of his behaviors. Then one day he reacted to something serious in a very disturbing way (laughter) so she looked it up and found that 1 by 1 he had almost every symptom. It cleared a lot up confusion for us of why he did the things he has done his life. Then as she was reading more, she realized that I exhibited a lot of the same behaviors. She was devastated and relieved at the same time: devastated that her husband had it and relieved to know that she was neither alone, nor crazy.

As we started looking at my genetic tree, we realized that my entire family of origin either has Asperger�s or is mildly autistic. They have not been �officially� diagnosed, but it�s really clear to my wife and me. So yes, I have Asperger�s. Feel free to go on her post (it�s in the recovery forum) and ask her how fun it is for both of us to realize that I have Asperger�s. My having Asperger�s is not something that has made my life better or easier because now I have an excuse to run amok, but ASD has caused both of us a lot of pain. Knowing that I have it only helps me to know that I need to question my view of reality and it helps my wife to �not live in crazy land� (her words).
No, I have not been �officially� diagnosed. But it�s pretty pointless to go to a doctor to get a diagnosis�if anything it could ruin my life�not getting hired, etc. But feel free to ask my wife�she�ll tell you that it�s pretty clear and that it�s not just me fishing for an excuse. She is going to a monthly group for spouses and SO�s of men with ASD

POINT #2: �You�re just looking for excuses�
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You MIGHT have.... (said with sarcasm)

This would be a fine example of BS....
You've taken your habit/independent behavior/adulterous behavior and found some diagnosis that you've used to minimize your responsibility.
Quote
People use those labels as an excuse as I see it being used here.
Suggestion: you can't bullsh** a bullshi**er and this forum is full of BS artists. You might as well get honest and stop with the games. IT just won't work here.

My intention in mentioning that I have Asperger�s was not to minimize my responsibility or look for an excuse. Knowing that I have it helps me understand some of the skewed thinking that led to my bad behavior. I�m sad that all of you are assuming that I�m using the Asperger�s as an excuse or �a game.� I�m not. I accept that I am 100% responsible for my behavior�all of it�regardless of why I did it.
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Diagnoses are a hindrance. They make us feel that we have a "condition" that explains our behaviour and that thus we have an excuse, which we don't.
Sorry, SC, I disagree with you on this point. When we understand that we have a blind spot, it empowers us to learn to adapt, to compensate � work harder in a particular area. That�s what I�m trying to do. You all are assuming that I�m just looking for an excuse to do hurtful things to my wife. It�s simply not true. I�m glad that I now know why I�ve struggled all my life with various social cues, but I�m also sad and depressed that I have Asperger�s. So please don�t tell me that just because I�m finding out the �why� of my thinking doesn�t mean that I�m saying I don�t own the �what� of my behavior. I just want to know why on earth I did what I did and tend to do what I do.

Which leads me to my final point for the night�

POINT #3: MB & �Disorders�
Quote
We're most of us here because we have not instinctively practiced exercising extraordinary care and concern for our spouse. Our behaviours range from independent behaviour and thoughtlessness all the way to physical abuse and multiple affairs, but the problem is the same and the cure is the same:

STOP doing what hurts your spouse and repeatedly and consistently do what makes your spouse fall in love with you.



STOP doing what hurts your spouse.

It's simple.
I agree 100%. Thank you, Sugarcane for respectfully helping me by giving me useful advice. I really am trying to implement MB principles. We will be starting the MB Online program within the next couple days and I�m looking forward to it.

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I am sad that we see yet another distraction to real recovery. Wouldn't it be wonderful to see such long, carefully considered posts devoted to being a better husband who makes his own wife feel like the most important woman in the world? How are you doing in that regard?

And I agree with sugarcane that such diagnoses are a "hindrance." This is Dr Harleys professional opinion, btw. They have led you to imagine you can't stop it when the truth is that you CAN. I think most of us here could very probably diagnose ourselves off the Internet in the same way. In the end it matters little. What matters is that we change our behaviors.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted by 1HopefulGuy
My intention in mentioning that I have Asperger�s was not to minimize my responsibility or look for an excuse.

You've got to stop this.

You bring it up again and again on this thread only to be called out on it,,,,,, yet you come back with this. THIS is Bullshi... You are trying to BS your way out of the corner you painted yourself into...

You're so used to doing this that you even believe yourself.... It's ludicrous.

You rationalize and justify your thinking. It's not an illness that causes this, it's being a practiced liar, con and manipulator that leads to this.

SOLUTION; Own your thinking. Notice when you start covering your tracks with partial truths, half stories and outright lies,, and STOP. Go back and apologize when you do this instead of BS'ing yourself and others. You'll find you're apologizing a lot in the beginning. Apologies will help you become humble. I'm certain that you're not a humble person yet, and yes, I can tell, just by reading your thread.


Originally Posted by 1HopefulGuy
I accept that I am 100% responsible for my behavior�all of it�regardless of why I did it.

If only you believed this, then we might get somewhere!

I see this quote typed out and I see it as someone that has the "poor me's"..... I see it with most 12 steppers in the first few years.... Poor me, poor me, I have no control over my thoughts and actions,,,, poor me, I'm powerless and therefore I relapse. I even see a lot of ol'timers buy into that . When you excuse a relapse as part of your condition, you have missed the point of the first step. The first step is complete surrender, which leads to full reliance upon God for your strength. God has no time for excuses, rationalizations, justifications, half truths, white lies, outright lies, etc, etc, etc,,,, He see's and knows why you do what you do. He knows you choose to do it. Read James 1:13-15

When you've surrendered, you'll not relapse again.

When you've surrendered, God is in control, and God doesn't relapse does He..... Of course not!

Once you know it's all about whose control you've surrendered too, you'll have finally learned something.

IMO, You still have not surrendered my friend. And how do I know this? Because you're still defensive. It's so very obvious to me, only because I was once the same way. I can see BS a mile away and it tires me to watch......


NOW - AN IMPORTANT QUESTION AGAIN (YOU SKIPPED IT)
What step have you been working on. Be Honest please! What have you been doing in the 12 step program? When I ask this, I usually see people are working on the 4th step? Is this where you are?





Recovery began 10/07;

Meeting my wife's EN's is my "thank you" that refuses to be silenced.
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Have you been diagnosed with this condition by a medical doctor?

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Quote
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I accept that I am 100% responsible for my behavior�all of it�regardless of why I did it.


If only you believed this, then we might get somewhere!


I don't understand why you and ML think I don't believe what I'm saying. Can you please explain. I'm going through extra effort to meticulously type out what I've done in the past. I'm typing it thinking I'm confessing and repenting and you guys keep telling me that everything I type is BS. It's making me question why I keep coming here and posting. I start out thinking I'm trying to get help, then you guys throw tomatoes at me and I'm just sitting here scratching my head.

I believe my statement from above and I stand by it. Yes, I have lied and BS'ed. Yes, I've screwed up my marriage. I'm taking responsibility. I'm learning new things - new ways to communicate. I'm learning to accept my wife's perspective without telling her she's crazy. The list of things I'm doing and learning is HUGE.

Yet y'all seem to just want to crucify me for being honest here. Why? I don't get it.

Next point...

But first.. how do I get a quote to say who I'm quoting????... Ok back to the question...

Quote
What step have you been working on. Be Honest please! What have you been doing in the 12 step program? When I ask this, I usually see people are working on the 4th step? Is this where you are?


Yes. I'm on step 4. I think I'll be able to cut-n-paste most of this thread directly into my "searching and fearless moral inventory." How'd you figure that out?

Quote
When you've surrendered, you'll not relapse again.
Tomorrow is 4 weeks since my last double-take.

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Mr. Knight,

Quote
Have you been diagnosed with this condition by a medical doctor?


No. Getting an "official" diagnosis from a Dr. would be time and money consuming. Given the overwhelming evidence: my wife's observations (she's known me for 30 years), my FOO, and my son - it's glaringly obvious.

Furthermore, as many people here have pointed out, the official diagnosis is pretty pointless. The goal is to change the bad communication and bad behaviors (eliminate LB's) and to learn to meet my W's EN's - I don't need a piece of paper from a Dr. to do that. smile

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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Wouldn't it be wonderful to see such long, carefully considered posts devoted to being a better husband who makes his own wife feel like the most important woman in the world? How are you doing in that regard?

Not very well. When we go out (RC) or talk (IC) it usually ends up with her getting upset about how badly I�ve screwed things up. Our 15 hours are usually spent with her telling me how much damage I�ve done. I�m getting a lot better at just taking it and not going into a depression box or a pity box or AO box or some other defensive box. I�m learning to stay positive and give her affection and actions that reassure her and show her that I�m committed.

I'm also changing little bad habits like when she asks me to do something or stop doing something, I am learning that if it's something I don't really feel strongly about, rather than ask "why", just oblige. And if it is something that I do feel strongly about (because sacrifice is bad) and I do ask "why" and then she tells me, "Because X" that I should't say "Well that's not a good enough reason" or "Your logic is faulty in wanting X." We're both learning to negotiate. It's definately not as natural for us as it is for Dr. H and Joyce.

We are just starting the online program so she can feel �safe� while doing the program. For the last year, she has wanted a mediator before committing to doing all the worksheets and EN analysis � for fear that I would just use it to bash her. So that�s where we are.

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You, your wife, and your family cannot diagnose you with a mental illness. Everyone claims someone in their family has some sort of illness (pick X out of the DSM and apply it as you wish). People who have no professional knowledge of a mental illness and who are close to that person in a familial/non-professional manner are the least objective around. Believe what you wish, but it is foolish to diagnose yourself with a mental illness.

Asperger's is one of those which even mental health professionals admit is over diagnosed (professionally) in far too many situations, let alone by laymen without any objective standards.

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Originally Posted by 1HopefulGuy
Yet y'all seem to just want to crucify me for being honest here. Why? I don't get it.

You're not being crucified, you're being challenged!

BIG DIFFERENCE



Originally Posted by 1HopefulGuy
But first.. how do I get a quote to say who I'm quoting????...

You type, within the brackets, quote=HerPapaBear



Originally Posted by 1HopefulGuy
Ok back to the question...

Yes. I'm on step 4. I think I'll be able to cut-n-paste most of this thread directly into my "searching and fearless moral inventory." How'd you figure that out?

Every person I know that has never fully surrendered says they are at step 4 - They get stuck there! IT's the same every single time!

Look, step 4 cannot happen until you do the first three.

Which means you surrender!

Once the first three are complete they need to be immediately followed by the house-keeping steps of 4-9 to have any lasting results.

These steps (4-9) take somewhere between 4 hrs to 1 week to complete.

YES all of them can be thoroughly completed in that time frame, otherwise all someone is doing - is sitting on their [censored]' doing nothing but coming up with BS excuses & whining.








Recovery began 10/07;

Meeting my wife's EN's is my "thank you" that refuses to be silenced.
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Originally Posted by HerPapaBear
Originally Posted by 1HopefulGuy
But first.. how do I get a quote to say who I'm quoting????...

You type, within the brackets, quote=HerPapaBear
Nononono, it's much simpler than that. Do you see the buttons on the end of every post - Reply Quote Quick Reply Quick Quote Notify Email Post?

Clcik "quote" on the post that you want to quote and you're done - name included.

Delete any sections that you don't want to quote, just like I deleted a lot of HPB's post above mine.

Leave the brackets intact.

Type your new message underneath the quote.

Use the "Preview Post" feature to check that the post will look the way you want it to look.

Try it with my post. Quote some of it it back to me and say "thank you" after the quote.


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Originally Posted by SugarCane
Try it with my post. Quote some of it it back to me and say "thank you" after the quote.

Thank you!

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Originally Posted by 1HopefulGuy
Thank you!
You're welcome.


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Originally Posted by HerPapaBear
Every person I know that has never fully surrendered says they are at step 4


OK, then. You're saying that I haven't fully surrendered. That may be true. So what advice would you give me for surrendering? What do you think I need to do?

If your answer is "Quit BS'ing and get to work."... then, OK. I'm getting to work. Can you be more specific? Anything specific you'd like me to focus on, read, do?

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Originally Posted by 1HopefulGuy
[
I'm also changing little bad habits like when she asks me to do something or stop doing something, I am learning that if it's something I don't really feel strongly about, rather than ask "why", just oblige.

Which is what you should do everytime she asks you to stop doing something. You don't need to know why. My concern is that you argue everything to death with her like you do here. I can tell this is a habit with you.

Quote
And if it is something that I do feel strongly about (because sacrifice is bad)

That is not the definition of sacrifice, though. Sacrifice doesn't apply to stopping behavior that bothers her, it applies to DOING things you don't want to do. For example, if she asks you to stop belching at the table, it is not considered "sacrifice" for you to stop. That would not fall under sacrifice no matter how "strongly" you feel about it.

On the other hand, if she asked you to do something you hate, such as go shopping with her and you obliged her, it would be considered sacrifice.

Quote
We're both learning to negotiate. It's definately not as natural for us as it is for Dr. H and Joyce.

Its not "natural" for anyone. It wasn't natural for them either in the beginning.

Quote
Not very well. When we go out (RC) or talk (IC) it usually ends up with her getting upset about how badly I�ve screwed things up. Our 15 hours are usually spent with her telling me how much damage I�ve done. I�m getting a lot better at just taking it and not going into a depression box or a pity box or AO box or some other defensive box.

Do you agree with her and promise to be better when she does this?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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