Hi everyone,
As part of my extraordinary precautions, my W and I are limiting how much I go out in public where I would have visibility to lots of people. (I am in recovery from years of lust, porn, masturbation, objectifying women, etc.).

My wife and I have been spending 15-20 hours a week together, but it is definitely not "the best 15 hours of the week" like Dr. H says it should be. It's mostly spent by me explaining my thinking and helping her feel assured that I really am committed. So I am (presumably) meeting her need for Openness and Honesty and Intimate Conversation, but I'm pretty lousy at Affection. I'm working on that (being Asperger�s doesn't help, but I'm working on it).

But one thing that I think we REALLY need is to work on is having FUN together. We know that watching TV or movies doesn�t really count. And we really like to get out of the house because doing stuff at home just creates stress (messes that need to be cleaned, laundry that needs to be done, kids that demand attention, projects looking at you, etc.). We were playing tennis until I screwed up my arm.. and now the weather is getting yucky outside.

So given all of these crazy parameters � I need some good ideas for Recreational Companionship so I can plan our dates. Feel free to point me to a MB URL link or other websites that have lists of ideas (if that�s OK with the moderators).

Thanks,
1HG

Here is the questionnaire that will give you some ideas

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4505_rei.html

What did you do when you were dating?

Let's see. 20 years ago? ...hmmm...

Why is it when you're in your 20's all those creative dates looked fun, but in your 40's, they all look stupid (playing Uno in the mall?!?) ? After I get home from work, the only thing that looks appealing is going out to eat or watching a movie? What do other 40-something year olds (with teenagers at home) do for fun?

Oh - and thanks for the link to the list. My W and I actually filled out that form at one point. I'll have to track it down and see what we both like/didn't like.

UGGH you sound like my husband. All he wants to do is veg and hang around the kids!!! However, yesterday he took me for a walk around our ponds and we had a great time doging spiders.

We went camping and put up a badmitton net and oh my goodness. I'm such a clutz that I fell over backwards once and air balled it a ton and we just laughed and laughed being silly. Walmart or Academy have these sport sets that you could take to the park. O

What about frisbee golf. Once again, I'm awful but we laugh a lot.

I set up the tent near our pond and we made somemores on the fire pit one night.

I've thought about making my own drive in movie by driving out on our property and setting up the dvd player and "parking"

Just being silly and laughing. That is what I miss and what I want!!!

Cooking classes
Wine tasting
Art classes
Dance lessons (private if you don't want other dance partners)
Dave and Busters or something similar
Billards
Bowling
Antique stores

There a bunch of things you could do, but what are you both willing to try or like?

Let's see. Here are a few things my H and I enjoy.

-Bowling
-Billiards at a local pool hall
-Hiking
-Museums
-Window shopping
-Hang out at the local bookstore
-Walk along the beach/pier
-Exploring local tide pools
-Bird watching

Some of these may not be available everywhere, or at all times of the year, but these are things we generally enjoy and can be tweaked for different areas/seasons.

The Recreational Companionship questionnaire is great and it has a wealth of ideas for fun and interesting dates.

The great thing about the RC questionnaire is that, besides the obvious purpose of giving you ideas for things to do and finding out what each other would like to do, is that it's a great conversation starter.

For example, "I never knew you were interested in trying archery!", or "You are interested in country & western dancing but not ballroom dancing, why is that?"

x 10

A few of our favorite things are going on weekend trips, going shopping at SAMs, and going to restaurants that are 1 to 2 hours away. When you pick destinations that are a few hours drive away, it makes for some great UA time in the drive over there and back.

The key to successful UA time is ensuring you are meeting ten top 4 intimate ENs of affection, conversation, sexual fulfillment and rec companionship.

Yeah - I like the idea of having fun and being silly. But, my wife is having a hard time having fun and being silly with me. She is still very hurt by my (past) wayward mindset... I've only been out of "the fog" for a few short months. Being in public where there are lots of women is a huge trigger for her right now so we avoid most public places. (Reason is that I am getting over a bad habbit of looking at other women).

Y'all threw some good ideas out there. Thanks!

This article will help you become more skilled at meeting her need for affection http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5010_qa.html

Can your children stay overnight at a family member's or friend's house once in awhile? That would allow you other options...you could still go out to dinner or to do an activity together but you'd still be able to go home and enjoy each other's company w/o the children. Don't worry about laundry and stuff like that...it can keep. You can sleep in and go to breakfast...some R&R while still meeting ENs.

Did you stop doing that?

Do you live in an area with short hikes, nice parks, scenic mountain spots? If so, pack a picnic & take your wife. You can make it simple - pick up subs - or something more fancy - if you don't want to cook, order 2 meals to go from her favorite restaurant. Don't forget dessert, drinks, a blanket (unless you are just going to stay in the car, which is fine too).

If your wife loves dancing, take her somewhere secluded & have romantic songs already lined up on your iPod or whatever - "Lady in Red", etc. You may fumble a bit & if you aren't a dancer, get down on one knee & sincerely pledge yourself to her again. It's obvious you want her to know that you love her.

When you get control of your wandering eyes, skip work & do fun, childish things - the zoo, an amusement park, mini golf, etc. Do NOT look at another woman. The instant you do, your wife will catch it & you'll be back to square one.

It's starting to be the Christmas season so put on Christmas songs, make your wife hot cocoa (or her fav hot drink), get the laptops out, & do online Christmas shopping together. If she's into all of the craft markets, ask her if she'd like you to take her (& again if you haven't mastered controlling your eyes, don't do this) & then once you do, be agreeable & pleasant about what she is picking out.

Are any favorite shows coming up - concerts, performances at church, etc? Be proactive & seek out what she likes, but of course gauge your wandering eyes/ask her if she is comfortable with going to xyz with you now.

I don't know if you guys are religious, but doing a devotional together is great UA time!

You could research both sides of your ancestry together.

You could collect something together - antique jewelry, old bottles, minerals, etc.

Photograph nature together on a walk.

Go fishing.

Is she artistic or are you? Buy a large canvas (use a 1/2 off coupon) & paint a picture together.

Buy supplies for making chocolate covered pretzels & strawberries. Buy white chocolate, dark chocolate, wax paper, sprinkles, etc. It's simple & fun.

Are you guys into gardening/flowers? Take her to a nursery & pick out a tree together & some flowers, etc.

I don't know you or your wife, but the point is to put great thought into your special dates. In amongst the special ones, schedule ongoing UA time, consistent & scheduled - popcorn & Scrabble every Sunday night, donuts & a country drive every Saturday morning or whatever. Make a list of what you enjoy & what she enjoys & go from there.

The possibilities are endless! Carpe Diem! Leave the "bump on a log, tv watching" for when you are 90 & really tired & immobile Although I do have to say not all tv watching is bad as long as you are fulfilling your UA time elsewhere. It's fun to have a few shows/sports you watch together & enjoy.

Hi ML,


When I am out and about, I get a heightened sense of adrenaline - like a dog around a bunch of cats. I've been stimulating my brain with other women for over 3 decades now and I've really been working hard on learning to stay focused and curb that nearly-automatic response. If fact, I�m doing a 12-step program to purge this lustful demon. But my W is in a lot of pain from the damage I've done to my brain. She is trying to lose weight and meet my need for AS. We are trying to rebuild our marriage, but for both of us, it's starting to feel like dragging a dead horse around: for her because I'm still struggling with finding other women attractive and for me because I'm married to a woman who has lost almost all respect for me. So we are trying to date, but it's really hard to get the spark back in our time together: there�s so much baggage from the past that my W is no longer wanting to go out with me or even fall back in love with me for fear that � even though I�ve made progress � I won�t ever really change my habit of coveting other women(�s bodies). I appreciate all the dating ideas folks have posted here. I�ll talk them over with her and see if she�s game� but the real problem is what I said earlier. She�s losing steam in trying to rebuild our marriage while waiting for me to fully repent and re-route my neurons.

Coveting other women is not the problem, it is oogling them. Have you stopped that? I am sure most men "covet" other women, but they don't gawk at them. I am concerned when you say there is "progress" rather than saying "I DON'T DO IT ANYMORE." There is a huge difference. Progress is not effective; stopping it is.

Have you stopped doing that? Also, once you stop that, you will find your wife more attractive by virtue of the contrast effect. But it is important to not gawk EVER and to completely get out of the habit. If you only avoid it when she is there, the contrast effect will still be in play and you WILL slip up when you are with her. The habit is broken by never doing it.

And of course, any and all porn should be stopped.

"working hard" and "making progress" are weasel words.

Did you STOP IT?

ML,
Regarding weasel words: Isn't the human condition a constant struggle to change behavior? Perfection is not automatic. When I do see other women that I find attractive, I am not just sitting and staring with drool coming out of my mouth - we're talking miliseconds of noticing. The problem arises when my W isn't around; the desire to look twice and three times is intense. It's THAT desire --to want to look-- that I'm trying to kill. I am "working hard" and "making progress" at that. I am going to a 12-step program to get that desire to look out of my head. I don't think I can just one day wake up and not have that desire.

You have this backwards. Feelings FOLLOW ACTIONS. First you stop the behavior and then the feelings FOLLOW.

You can wake up TODAY and stop gawking. That has nothing to do with "working hard" or "making progress." That has everything to do with stopping it. NOW. TODAY. It is not a process. It is a decision you make TODAY.

Alcoholics don't continue to drink despite enormous desire. They don't wait until the desire goes away. They stop TODAY and eventually the desire goes away.

I asked you many posts ago if you stopped doing that and I still am not clear on that because you are not giving straight answers.

Did you stop it?

Please listen.

Radio clip of looking at other women

BH and ML:
I listened to the radio clip. Here are the notes I took:


Well, here�s the deal. I�m going to try to address ML�s question AND respond to Dr. H�s advice from MBRadio (Thanks, BH). As I mentioned at the top of my post, as part of my extraordinary precautions, we are limiting how often I go out in public; just as Dr. H recommends during the MBRadio blurb. In fact, that�s why I started this post: was to find recreational activities that we can both agree to that keep me out of highly populated places. I am not looking at porn or masturbating; just like Dr. H suggests in the radio blurb. I haven�t done either of those in almost 2 years. However, since working on our marriage (about a year now), I have been getting on the internet and looking at women�s pictures (fully clothed, non-porn, but still a love-buster � I get it). I have confessed that behavior to my W and I am ceasing doing that at work. As Dr. H recommends, I tried to install a key-logger on my PC at work (per wife�s request and my enthusiastic agreement ), but because I work for a large computer company with firewalls and strong anti-virus, it won�t let me install it. In fact it�s probably against their policy for me to put that on there. You can see that post in the Infidelity/Operation Investigate Forum. Maritalbliss says I should quit this job. I�m going to have to think about that.

Anyway, back to the topic�.

Getting over looking at other women for me is like alcoholism or giving up smoking. Y�all are right. I should stop it right now. Just like an alcoholic or smoker who is getting dry. The alcoholic occasionally relapses and they have to re-commit. That�s why I�m going to a 12-step program. For me--because there are women everywhere--it makes it REALLY hard to not see something that �catches my eye.� But I am getting better at stopping the looking and �drinking.� For example, today my W agreed (POJA) that I could go to the store without her. I did a really good job at not �scanning� and not �drinking� anything in. Today I was good. Tomorrow I want to be good, too. In fact, I want to be good for the rest of my life. I am constantly having a prayer in my head as I go out in public: �Father, help me keep focused. Help me not hurt my wife. Help me be a strong man.� I am turning my will over to God like it says to do in Step 3. So I am putting my heart, my mind, and my soul into killing this addiction.

I get it that if I �relapse� and gawk at a woman, that it is a choice. I get that. I also get that I am in control of my life and not a victim of [fill in the blank.. bad childhood, Asperger�s, W�s angry outbursts, etc.]. I get all that. All I�m trying to convey is that it is really hard to kick this addiction cold turkey. I�ve told my W that it�s like cutting off my arm: I�ve used it all my life. I�ve become accustomed to it. I like it. I want it there. But what I�m learning through the 12-step program is how to lop off my arm and trust God to be my arm. That�s what I�m doing. And I�m having faith that I�ll be successful. I might fall down, but I can get back up, dust myself off, and go my way �and sin no more.�

I hope that answers you question.

You mean the alcoholic who is not serious has relapses, right? The alcoholic who is serious does NOT relapse because they made a decision to stop it. The goal is to stop forever, not to "relapse occasionally." Is that how you rationalize your "relapses?"

People who don't quit cold turkey are looking for excuses to continue a bad habit. Cold turkey is always the only way. People who are not serious use ploys like "tapering" and other such nonsense. Smetimes their poor spouses even fall for that ploy.

The best way to stop bad habits is to make a decision to stop. It is not about "trying" or "making progress" but about STOPPING.

Melody<---------recovering alcoholic (27 years without a drink) and former smoker (14 years cigarette free) no relapses

Originally Posted By: Dr Bill Harley

"The habit of gawking at attractive women goes beyond my category of "annoying habits." I consider it to be "independent behavior" -- behaving as if your spouse doesn't exist. Many women are very offended when their husbands do more than just glance at an attractive woman, and so I encourage their husbands to practice looking away, especially when their wives are not with them. If that doesn't work, I encourage them to control their lifestyle so that tempting conditions are eliminated. In one case, I encouraged a couple I counseled to move away from a beach where the husband was simply unable to stop staring at bikini-clad women. It worked."

I don't know where you work and I haven't checked your other thread. But, how does your employer feel about your habit of "looking at women" (or any other non-work related activity) on their equipment? I should think they would want to be aware of this, if they arene't already, and work with you on helping you not have that access. It's a computer company? I bet they know how to install net-nanny on your system.

opt

I was thinking the same thing. Hopefulone, I would go to your IT department and just tell them you need to have non work related websites blocked because you are in the habit of looking at women on the internet. It is distracting and you want to remove the temptation. They could help you with that.

Some radio clips about gawking at women.
Radio clip about gawking #1
Radio clip on gawking #2
Radio clip #3

ML,

First off, I appreciate your help. I really do. If I come off unappreciatived or cocky, I apologize up front. I really do want help. I really do want to protect my wife's feelings. I really do want to my marriage to pass the romantic threshhold that Dr. H talks about. That's my goal.

Now back to the topic.



That's impressive. Good job! However, I have a few questions for you: (1) You NEVER relapsed?!? You stopped smoking and drinking THE MOMENT you decided to stop and never relapsed? Really?!?! If so, that's great. However, (2) why would they have 12-step programs if everyone was as able to quit as easily as you were? Are 12-step programs for the weak sissies of the world!?! And I'm including Foodaholics, Alcoholics, Drugaholics, Sexaholics, Anyholics here. Are all of those people who need help quitting just weak sissies with no backbone? If so, then I guess you're right and I, like all of them are "not serious."

ML,

Here's my response to your post quoting Dr. H regarding gawkers:



I agree.



I am doing exactly this. However, I admittedly am not perfect at looking away. This is what I'm using the 12-step program for. When I'm out in public without my spouse, I'm having to pray like I've never prayed before for God to help me not look twice and to help me not "scan" surroundings for something eye-catching. So I am doing exactly what Dr. H says: "practice looking away."



I(/we) am(/are) doing this as well. That's why I started this post - was to "control" where to go to do our recreational companionship during our 15-20 hours of time together. So "check" this one off the list also.

Were you imagining that these 12 step programs are intended for the purpose of tapering? If you were, you are sadly mistaken. The FIRST STEP in the AA program is about quitting drinking. It doesn't say "try" or "make progress," it means to QUIT DRINKING. NOW.

Only the first step is about drinking, all the rest of the steps are about correcting our living and thinking problem. And you can't do the rest of the steps until you have done the FIRST.

So, the first step is to STOP IT. Cold turkey.

When a new member shows up drunk at meetings, do you think they let him stay? No. They escort him out because a) he is disruptive and b) a person who is still engaging in his addiction cannot focus on the other 11 steps. It is a waste of time.

So I will say again that people who are serious do not have relapses. They don't give themselves permission. It sounds to me like you HAVE given yourself permission to fall on and off that bandwagon with weasel words like "trying" and "making progress." Nothing short of STOPPING IT is meaningful.

And how do you get out of the habit? You STOP IT.

The fact that you are arguing this very point with me tells me that you are not serious.

Optimism,



Obviously, me doing "non-work related" activities while at work is not good. However, as a salaried employee, I am paid to get my job done and they are pretty lax about allowing employees to use their equipment/internet for personal stuff:



So just looking at random pics of women is not considered "inappropriate" and is not a violation of corporate policy. However, it is a violation of POJA with my wife plus it's just not healthy, so I will not do it any more.


"that access" means the entire internet. IOW, I wasn't looking at anything objectionable, just random women - they are all over the internet. So I have to treat the random pretty women that show up in teeth whitening ads the same way I do pretty ladies filling up their tank with gas at the station. I'm having to retrain my brain to just not look. For me that's like quitting cocaine (not that I've ever done drugs or tried to quit, but they say that quitting "lust" is more difficult than quitting cocaine.)

As a huge computer company, they don't do that. I wish they could, but they don't work that way (onsie-twosie special & personal non-corporate apps for outlier employees - it would be like asking congress to grant you a special deduction on your taxes).

NEVER relapsed. And I have no willpower at all. When I got serious about quitting smoking and quitting drinking I never had another drink or a cigarette.

No willpower.

I know hundreds of people who did the same. All is takes is a serious decision. The problem in your case is that you have given yourself permission to relapse. You have a strategy of relapse, rather than a strategy of abstinence. As long as you keep giving yourself permission for the occasional relapse, you will never change your habits.

What I see here is a guy who probably just wants to get his wife off his back so he figures he can continue satisfying his addictions with the occasional "relapses" and shut her up at the same time. ["I'm trying, dear! I will just get back on the horse! All people relapse!" "I am making progress!"] All bullcrap.

I don't see a guy who is committed in any way, shape or form to complete and total abstinence. I see a guy who wants to get his wife off his back while he keeps getting a fix.

I betcha my company is bigger than yours and if I went into the IT office [or HR] and told them I have a problem gawking at women, they could help me come up with a solution to severely limit the websites on my computer.

See, only the FIRST STEP even addresses our drinking - all the rest are addressing our living problem for the purpose of maintaining sobriety. It was never intended to be a long, tapering method:

1.We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable.
2.Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3.Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4.Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5.Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6.Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7.Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8.Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9.Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10.Continued to take personal inventory, and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it.
11.Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
12.Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

Every company I've worked for has been pretty serious about blocking that kind of stuff at work. The bigger they were, the more serious they were about it.

Ten years ago I had an internet porn problem. But you didn't see me gawking at women on websites at work, because I was pretty sure they would FIRE ME if I did that. That was pretty good motivation!

Biggest line of BS I've ever heard (says the IT guy). No way any sizable "computer company" doesn't have a monitoring/filtering/blocking software or hardware package. Like saying salaried employees of Blue Cross/Blue Shield don't have health insurance.

I am in the program and my understanding is completely different from yours. To me, steps 1-11 are to help the addict retrain the brain and rely on God for help. Step 12 is to help others.

I'm not trying to give myself an excuse to keep doing it. I'm just admitting that I can't do this myself and I need divine intervention. The program is teaching me how to obtain that divine intervention.

I am stopping. I'd like to say I'll never do it again. Unlike drinking or smoking, my addiction happens to be everywhere - church, store, work, EVERYWHERE. When I see something that catches my attention (pretty lady), I have to (1) look away QUICKLY and (2) not look again. I AM doing this. I pray for strength every day to KEEP doing this.

Can I be perfect at doing this for the rest of my life? I hope so, but I don't claim to be perfect. Is being imperfect "tapering?" I don't believe so, I believe it's the human condition. We all sin (Romans 3:23). And that�s why there�s a Savior � because we need saving. I'd like to say that I'll never sin again - but I'm not that naive.

Am I giving myself an out or an excuse? No - I'm just admitting that I am a man - I have a natural attraction to women. I am having to learn to bound that natural force EVEN MORE than most men because I've gone so far out of bounds (porn) that even JUST SEEING at a pretty woman for me trips the adrenaline, dopamine, and serotonin response. I �spose it would be like putting a dropper full of alcohol on the tongue of a recovering alcoholic.

Or here's another example: Do you eat 100% healthy foods every day in the right quantity? Do you ever "slip up" and eat a little more than you should? Do you ever "indulge" only to curse yourself the next day?

Unlike alcohol or cigarettes (un-natural, human concocted) food and sex are necessary and healthy. So I feel like you telling me "just stop" is like me telling a recovering food addict to eat perfectly every day for the rest of their life. Sure it's the right thing to do, and they need to do it. But will that food-addict be perfect every day?

Hopefully.

coastguard,



Tell you what. I will try to find an IT or HR person to ask. However, both of these functions are either outsourced to some company in India or been replaced by a server in China.

But I will search for a human to ask the question.

Footnote: Keep in mind that I have NOT been looking at porn or inappropriate websites at work. I'll bet that that crap is either blocked or I'd get fired if I looked at it. So while I have been thoughtless and used poor judgement, I haven't been so stupid as to jeopardize my job. I don't doubt that if I had kept going down the same path of addictive/destructive rationalizing, I probably would've screwed up eventually. But lucky for me, I didn't let it get that bad. I've "just" been looking at women - clothed.

Yes, and there is alcohol and cigarettes everywhere too. I don't know if you have been out lately, but I can get booze and cigarettes on about every corner in America. There are billboards everywhere. Every building I walk into smells like cigarettes around the door.


And this is why I don't think you are serious. You spend alot of time concocting elaborate excuses for "relapse" and "slip ups." This is not what one does when one is serious about quitting.

When someone is serious about quitting they don't spend their time making up excuses to "slip" and "relapse;" they spend their time finding ways to stay straight.

I think it is important that your wife understand that you are not taking this seriously. I know what it looks like when one is just going through the motions to get his spouse off his back.

Is your wife a poster on this board?

You must have amazing self control then at work. How can that be since you apparently have *ZERO* self control outside of work and are at the mercy of "relapses" and "slips...?"

Excuse #1: I am in the program and my understanding is completely different from yours. To me, steps 1-11 are to help the addict retrain the brain and rely on God for help. Step 12 is to help others.

Excuse #2: ...I need divine intervention. The program is teaching me how to obtain that divine intervention.

Excuse #3: Unlike drinking or smoking, my addiction happens to be everywhere - church, store, work, EVERYWHERE.

1Hopefulguy must live on a secluded island somewhere - he certainly doesn't live in America!


Excuse #4: Can I be perfect at doing this for the rest of my life? I hope so, but I don't claim to be perfect.

Excuse #5: Is being imperfect "tapering?" I don't believe so, I believe it's the human condition. We all sin (Romans 3:23). And that�s why there�s a Savior � because we need saving. I'd like to say that I'll never sin again - but I'm not that naive.

Oh no, since he can never be perfect he can never stop gawking at women!

Excuse #6: Am I giving myself an out or an excuse? No - I'm just admitting that I am a man - I have a natural attraction to women.

Excuse #7: Or here's another example: Do you eat 100% healthy foods every day in the right quantity? Do you ever "slip up" and eat a little more than you should? Do you ever "indulge" only to curse yourself the next day?

Excuse #8: Unlike alcohol or cigarettes (un-natural, human concocted) food and sex are necessary and healthy. So I feel like you telling me "just stop" is like me telling a recovering food addict to eat perfectly every day for the rest of their life. Sure it's the right thing to do, and they need to do it. But will that food-addict be perfect every day?

Do you have 8 REASONS why you can STOP IT? Could you put this much effort into finding reasons to STOP as you did in finding excuses why you can't?

Yes�
Reason #1: I�ll lose my wife and therefore my family.
Reason #2: I�ll lose the respect of my children.
Reason #3: It�s a sin (Matt 5:28)
Reason #4: Contrast effect: always comparing people to my W.
Reason #5: Violates POJA.
Reason #6: It�s a love-buster: Independent behavior.
Reason #7: Playing with fire will get me burnt (feeding the �small� sin of looking at other women will only make me want to go to the �bigger sin� of porn).
Reason #8: I�m stirring with the �love chemicals� (serotonin, dopamine, etc.) with something other than my wife.

See � I have many reasons to stop. And plenty of incentive. I�d like you to please respond to my comment (or my "excuse"):

ML,

Can you also explain what you meant by:


What's your point?

Yes. I have used amazing self-control at work. I have also overcome porn and mastrubation. I have now read 3 of Dr. H's books. I have learned to stop disrespectfully judging my wife. I've learned to meet my W's need for SF by (1) learning to control my anxiety and not push her away and by taking (2) testosterone and (3) ED meds. I've learned be open and honest about my bad behavior. I've learned to express my emotional needs.

I feel like I'm doing my best. And I've been pretty darn good about not looking at other women. But it seems like because I still am struggling, you say I am just "going through the motions."

YES I AM going through the motions! I'm doing the work! I'm changing my behavior one day at a time.

What do you want me to do different than what I am doing?

Go read my post again. I was responding to your comment.

Your analogy doesn't work because gawking at women is NOT necessary or healthy. Just as alcohol and cigarettes are not necessary, neither is porn or gawking at women.

And yes, it was an "excuse." Another reason why you can't just STOP IT. If you are so interested in stopping then why go to this extreme of manufacturing elaborate, but unworkable, analogies?

I don't see people who are sincere about recovery do that.

You can STOP IT as I suggested earlier. People who are committed to stopping don't use weasel words like "making progress" and "trying;" they STOP IT.

That is the FIRST STEP in the 12 Steps. One has to FIRST stop the addiction - SURRENDER - and then they can be in a sober frame of mind to implement the other steps. You seem to have this completely backwards.

You must first STOP the gawking and then your feelings will follow. I get the impression from reading your posts that you imagine some magic cute feeling is going to attack you against your will forcing you to stop being interested in oogling women. That is not how it works. Feelings FOLLOW ACTIONS. So you have to first STOP the action and then your feelings will come.

Train yourself to keep all your focus on your wife. Focus on meeting the top 2 intimate emotional needs of affection and conversation. Look at her face often and speak to her and touch her.


Your "best" will be to STOP IT. Something which you have fiercely resisted on this thread. Being "darn good" is not the goal, STOPPING is the goal.

And you are not doing your best when you continue to gawk at women on your computer at work.

"Getting better," "occasional relapses," "trying," "making progress"

Weasel words of a man who is not serious. How long do you imagine your wife will put up with this? What is she supposed to do while you play games?

I've stopped.

Then what is there to argue ABOUT?

Nothing.

I agree.

If you are done with the defensiveness do you want to get to work?

1HopefulGuy, I think you will be amazed at the results from following MLs no nonsense advice. I am very glad to see you taking her 2x4s seriously. She's been there, done that.

When we are very bonded to a person, behaviour or habit it feels IMPOSSIBLE to break away.

ML cautioned you that no 'magic cute feeling' was going to descend and let you off the hook from the hard work required. I think you referred to it as 'divine intervention' but usually DI takes the form of a kick in the pants that makes us roll up our sleeves. Not a magic change of heart.

The BRILLIANT thing is when you 'stop' - hard as it is - you break that bond and addiction. THEN the magic feeling of freedom arrives. After, not before.

You are capable of some good changes which you have already made. And you are right that glancing at women gives you a chemical high. That it why it is imperative to stop. Each glance returns your withdrawal clock to day one. You will never get clear of the addiction like that.

Good luck.

Indie, ML,

I'm not expecting a "magic cute feeling." But God is helping me as I "turn [my] will and [my] life over to the care of God."

Thank you all for your help. My wife appreciates it as well (she ran out of 2x4's ).

Yes ML, I am ready to get to work. I heard this song and it made me think of your advice...

Love the song! And I am glad you came back.

How is it going? Update, please!

ML & all: I'm not ignoring you. I've started typing up a response to this question, but I'm going to put it in a new thread specifically for the topic of me stopping looking at other women. I figured that "Date Ideas???" is probably a misleading thread name. So more details to come.

I would keep it on this thread and just change this thread title.

1Hopefulguy, how are you doing?

The radio show today had a good piece on gawking at women that would be helpful to you and your wife. If you click on the radio broadcast link and click on rebroadcast it will be replayed until the next show on Wednesday at noon. [it will be in the archives next week]

Sorry I missed it, but I'll download it when it goes to the archives.

I came up with a technique... well, more like.... God inspired me with a new technique that I'll share here.

Before I was trying to just "look away" whenever a female crossed my path. But after my wife slapped me for glancing away, the following technique popped into my head:

I now "target" a specific thing when I'm out and about. If I am walking, I'll "target" something above my head (the M in McDonald's or the "E" in Exit), then before I pass it up, I'll target a new object. It's kinda like Spiderman's web-slinging. So far it's been very helpful in keeping me from "scanning".

(Note: When my wife slapped me, we were going through a drive-thru. I was in the passenger seat. When we pulled up to the window, I glanced over toward the female server at the window. I didn't stare, or ogle, or gawk... I just glanced over. I didn't even see who the cashier was or what she looked like. But just the fact that I "scanned" sent my wife into a tailspin. She wanted to show me how it feels to her when I scan for "something shiny". I understand how it can be painful to her to have me "scanning." I personally don't think it warrants a slap on my face, but I know she was hurting and wanted me to feel what she was feeling. I don't want to keep hurting her. That's why I came up with this technique. Rather than just struggling to NOT LOOK at things (what happens when someone tells you "Don't look!" ???), I now focus on something specific. So rather than going through a drive-thru and saying to myself "don't look, don't look, don't look", I now look at my right shoelace, or the Ford symbol on the dash, or something specific. So far it's working really well. It's a brain drain to constantly have to keep my eyes/brain busy, but it's worth it the effort.)

Also ML, I know that this forum doesn't allow external links, but I'd like you to read this article:

The new quitter: http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/201007/the-new-quitter

It refers to a lot of what you and I were "arguing" over. If the moderators delete the link, perhaps you can ask them to email it to you personally. I'd like to know what Dr. Harley thinks about the article.

Oh - my W wants me to tell everyone my joke. I told her that sometimes I don't trust the advice given in the forum because even though you "experts" are great, you're not Dr. H. She asked, "So you only trust Dr. H?" I told her that I believe Dr. Harley is the 4th member of the Godhead: Father, Son, HG, and Dr. H... I call it "The Quadrinity"

Why don't you email Dr. H about the article? Since he's the 4th member.

Oh I see. So your goal is failure? You are searching for articles that say that quitting addictions cannot be done. Well guess what? You are speaking to a recovering alcoholic who has been dry for 27 years and a reformed smoker who quit 14 years ago so we know it can be done. I am the PROOF of that. Do you know how I did it?

I did not seek out people who FAILED, I sought out people who SUCCEEDED. We all know how to fail, don't we? That is no great feat. Any [censored] can do that. But if we are sincere about succeeding, we will seek out those who have been successful and follow their path.

You already know how to fail. Do you want to know how to succeed? Because it sounds to me like that is your goal.

I am disappointed that you latched onto that article that justifies failures. I am sad that your wife has to live with your thoughtless behavior.

She should be disappointed that you are seeking out failures to emulate rather than winners.

I should add that only 10% of alcoholics die sober. The rest NEVER sober up. So I agree with the article that relapse is the rule rather than the exception.

FAILURE is the rule rather than the exception.

But winners don't strive to fail, as you are doing. If your strategy is to relapse, as it appears, then you will fail. I think your wife should understand that this is your strategy to justify continual relapses.

Like they told me when I joined AA in 1985: stick with the winners. I have followed that advice and have never had a relapse in 27 years.

Your wife should not put up with a spouse who has a goal of relapse and failure.

It is blasphemy to equate Dr Harley with the Holy Trinity Even as a joke

The Bible says that all have sinned and that the heart of man is desperately wicked.
We are commanded to repent of our ways and be baptized.
Repent means to have a change of mind.
If your wife is now slapping you then your marriage is going downward fast.

I encourage you to pray the Jesus prayer throughout the day:
"Lord Jesus, Son of God, have mercy on me"
Pray when you are tempted.

1hopefulguy, how much longer is your wife supposed to endure the indignity of your gawking at women while you pursue new and creative excuses to avoid stopping it?

I have to say that in 27 years of attending AA meetings, I have never heard of a person who used the excuse that they could not stop until they had made it through the 12 steps. That notion would be laughed out of any AA meeting because they would see right through it. Nor would anyone there tolerate your program of relapse.

Winners don't seek excuses to relapse, they seek winning strategies. I give you kudos for the creative bullsh**, but that is all it is. Bullsh**.

I would encourage your wife to stop tolerating the nonsense and hold you accountable. Your sicko behavior must hurt her terribly and instead of focusing on making changes, you focus on manufacturing excuses.

She should make plans to kick you to the curb until you get serious.

And to the wife of 1hopefulguy: your husband is playing games with you. He is not in the least bit serious about quitting. Everything he is doing is window dressing to get you off his back.

ML,
I really do appreciate your feedback. I really do. I just don't know if you really understand the difference between giving up alcohol and cigarettes and a man giving up lust. You think you do, but by your condescending tone, I think you have no idea what you're talking about.

When you've gone to AA or smokers Anonymous has everyone there quit cold turkey? and never gone back? So it's a meeting for perfect people who never have any relapses? Really?!?!

Are you saying that only those who never relapse are really trying?!?!? Really?!?!?! The rest of the folks who struggle to quit over a period of time are losers? Just window dressing? Really!?!?

I have committed to stopping. I am not going places by myself. I have implemented my new "targeting" technique to help me stop "scanning". I am praying for help. I am going to a 12-step program. I am stopping.

But alas - I am not perfect. I have gone almost 2 weeks without a double take. I feel like I am learning to not even notice other women. It's not an easy thing to do for ANY man. Ask your husband!

I am not looking for excuses to relapse. I'm just telling you that your view of addiction recovery is bullsh**. By you telling me that I'm a loser because I'm not perfect is bullsh**. I am not Jesus Christ. I am not perfect. I feel like I am making tremendous progress, but you seem to think that progress isn't an option - only perfection. I just don't get your perspective.

Can you show me somewhere where addiction recovery means instant perfection? Never falling back down?!?

Why the freak is there a 12-step program if it's so easy to just stop it?!?! Why are there couselors?!?! Why the heck is there a savior?!?! I don't get you. I really don't.

I'm proud of my progress. I wish I didn't struggle with scanning and looking at other women. I wish I never polluted my brain with years of porn. I feel like crap that I chose that path. Now that I am trying to save my marriage, I am giving up lust. I'm doing it. I'm sorry to you and I'm sorry to my wife that It's a struggle for me. I don't expect my wife to put up with it. That's why I'm quitting.

I'm almost two weeks "sober" (no looking, glancing, or scanning). I'm going for three. Can you please pray for me instead of cursing me? I'd appreciate it.

More endless excuses about why you can't quit. Are you saying now that only Jesus Christ can recover from addictions?

I am telling you that your view of recovery is bullsh**. After all, I *AM* recovered; you are NOT. So who knows better how to recover? Someone who is NOT recovered, who is committed to a program of RELAPSE or someone who has been recovered for 27 years?

And see, I have an addiction - YOU DON'T. You just have a habit of gawking that you are prolonging by going to 12 Step meetings as a means of dragging out your bad habit. Habits are much easier to break than addictions.

I don't believe for one minute you even have an "addiction." You are just a gawker like any other man. And other men stop it every day.


My prayers are all for your wife, not you. I dearly hope you stop playing games with your gawking habit for her sake. You will get my support when you abandon the excuses and stop posting lame articles about how losers engage in the game of relapse. You already know how to relapse.

Your wife should not have to tolerate your games.



You don't even understand the purpose of 12 step programs or what they do there. Of course people quit cold turkey. Most do.

Why would you choose to identify with and emulate the relapsers instead of the winners if not as a means to continue your cruel and harmful behavior?

Why aren't you posting articles about the ones who NEVER relapse? Not too interested in them, are ya?

Why don't you explain to me what the purpose of AA is?

A sincere person has the goal of complete ABSTINENCE. They don't have a goal of relapse. Sure, people do relapse, but that is not their goal. It is YOURS.

To the wife of 1Hopefulguy, please take the time to write Dr Harley about your husband's gawking habit. He has managed to cloak his thoughtless habit in the world of psychobabble, calling it an "addiction" and all that comes with it.

Ask Dr Harley what you should do with a husband who refuses to stop gawking and instead runs off to "counseling" and 12 Step programs to prolong his bad habits. Ask him what you should do about a husband who hurts you continuously with his bad habits.

I predict he may tell you to separate.

Agree.

I can't imagine a poor wife having to live under these conditions.

I'm not "refusing to stop" I am stopping. Why do you keep saying I refuse to stop?!?! I'm doing it. Like I said, I've gone two weeks without doing a double-take. I think I'm doing pretty good.

Also, regarding your statements

and...



Are you an expert at the difference between a habit and an addiction? What gives you the right to diagnose me or my behavior. I think women have no idea what it's like to be a man and overcome a lust addiction. So I don't think you have a leg to stand on in differentiating between a habit and an addiction - especially when it comes to the male brain. I would trust your husband's advice more than yours - assuming he's one of the "winners" you're referring to who doesn't ever look at other women. But he may also be double-taking without you even knowing it.

I am going to turn my two weeks into three regardless of whether it's a habit or an addiction; with your support or without it. I know you want me to give up on my progress and my marriage. I'm not going to.

You and the other women on this thread just bash me. No advice, no useful URL's, no recommended reading, just bashing me. Can you please be helpful instead of just saying "your poor wife - she should leave you" ?? That's not helpful.

How were these not helpful? These are straight from Dr. Harley as the article that Mel posted to you.

How are we not helping? Is this a way of deflecting back on us?

Did you even listen to these that I posted back on 10-28-12? I take alot of time to find this kind of help for you.

With your next relapse already planned, justified and excused.


No, but Dr Harley is and this is just a bad habit according to him. There are a plethora of posts over on the private forum where he has told men to stop it. They stopped it. Of course one does not have to be an "expert" to know that gawking is a bad habit. You can call it an "addiction," a bad habit or a dog fart. Its all the same, bad behavior is bad behavior.

What matters is that you can change bad behavior if you choose to.


More excuses. You are an endless fountain of excuses for why you can't make it. Now your excuse is you have "male brain" and women can't understand. Really? That's not even creative.

You are talking to someone who has broken several REAL addictions [and bad habits] so that dog won't hunt. I also know hundreds of MEN who have been sober over 20 years in AA. Know scads of men on this very forum who overcame their gawking behavior and porn habit too.

I could say to you "I think non-alcoholics have no idea what its like to be an alcoholic and overcome an alcohol addiction."

But anyone would recognize that for the excuse it really is.


It is useful to your wife to get away from someone who is not in the least serious about changing his destructive habits. How do you think it makes it her feel to see you post articles on relapse here? Do you think that gives her any hope? Do you understand how destructive your behavior has been to her emotional well being?

What is not "helpful" is your program of relapse, Sir.


Here is some useful advice: stop making excuses for your relapses and get serious.

A person who is serious about changing his bad habits does not seek out the lowest common denominator; he seeks out the highest common denominator. A sincere person is not planning his next relapse and posting carefully selected articles to justify it. I know why you would rather focus on relapsers than successful people.

You might think you are fooling people but you are not.

I will add that there is a saying in AA about people who relapse. The next "relapse" might be the one where you don't make it back. And that is very true with most alcoholics. Only 10% ever make it. In your case, your wife is bound to get fed up with your games and take her leave. I know I would. Gawking is a habit that can be broken and your wife knows that.

But that is ok, I can see your attitude and am not interested in posting to you anymore. My interest is in speaking to your wife and getting her the help she needs so she can protect herself from you. Can you send her here, please?

Now you are starting to sound like Bill Clinton. Everybody else does it, huh?

It depends on what the meaning of the word "is" is...... lol

Brainhurts,

Yes, I've been listening to the MBRadio links. And I've now read 3 of Dr. H's books.

In these MBRadio blurbs, Dr. Harley mentions 3 seconds. He also talks about "prolonged" looking. None of my glances are for more than about 1/4 of a second - definately not "prolonged." What frustrates my wife is that I have a habit of scanning. Regardless of whether or not I even find a "victim", the fact that I might look around for one triggers her. That's what I'm trying to stop. I don't think I've looked at another woman for more than 3 seconds probably since 3 months ago (other than talking to women like at church or parent teacher conference in which case I looked in their eyes). So per Dr. H�s 3 second rule, I�m not gawking, nor have I gawked in 3 months.

In the 10-28-10-2A rebroadcast, Dr. Harley compares gawking to porn or strip clubs. Yet ML says it's "just a bad habit." Perhaps many men look at porn as a time-passer, but I'll bet 99% of the men who look at porn ARE ADDICTS (per clinical definition). It's not just a habit. But whatever. ML can keep on demeaning me by saying "it's just a habit and you're a baby." Whatever!

Dr. H also says "glance and look away".. I AM DOING THAT. In fact, I'm now working on not even glancing... not even noticing. I�m focusing on targets that are away from people so I don�t even see something that I would want to look at. I call that EXTRAORDINARY PRECAUTIONS. ML, do you still think Dr. H would recommend separation?

I think I'm doing pretty darn well. The double-take I did two weeks ago was probably 1 sec. The incident in which I was slapped, I didn't ever actually see the server at the drive-thru, but my wife saw me turning my head to see - which is a trigger for her (and I understand that. I don't DJ her and tell her that it's OK... I admited that it's a LB, and developed my technique of "target practice" so it won't happen again). And I am ridding myself of that desire to even look around at my surroundings - regardless of whether there are women present or not.

So I AM DOING EXACTLY WHAT DR. HARLEY IS SAYING. SO ML, STICK THAT IN YOUR TOBACCO-FREE PIPE AND SMOKE IT!!!!

Wow just wow.

Is this how you talk to your poor wife? Really? Stick it in your pipe? Wow.

Why would you not want to actually want to get help? Why say demeaning things to a poster who has almost 12 years of MB experience, worked the program and has a ROMANTIC marriage?

Is she saying truthful things that are hitting home? Someone who tries to "rationalize" against excellent advice must have his head in the sand.

Why don't you sign up for the online program and have Dr. H's help?

here

here

nuf' said?



That's great, but apparently, thats not enough for your wife since your "scanning" triggers her. But lets keep in mind that yours is a program of RELAPSE. You have posted articles here and fanatically defended relapses in a clintonesque manner.

THAT is what your wife should be alarmed about.


Defending relapses is not my idea of "doing pretty darn well." It is playing russian roulette with your wife's emotions. It is a tactic of someone who has a program of relapses.

Ummm, no.

1HG,
I have some experience with what you're going through.
I've overcome a few habits in the last few years. porn (and yes, I'd say I had a bit of a relapse on that one; what finally put the screws to it was the "yourbrainonporn" link/information posted on this board. drinking( I wasn't a fallingdowndrunk but I "enjoyed" my IPA). angry outbursts (very damaging to my relationships).
Latest project: cutting fat/cholesterol from my diet (there's an addiction for you -- the american diet is very harmful...and addictive) -- 10 weeks on that one so far.

All these eliminations have generally geen a stuggle for a few weeks, but the cravings do go away. You have to recreate the pathways in your brain. It's not comfortable, but with the right MINDSET and MOTIVATION it is very achievable. As a deterrent, think of how much hurt you cause your wife when you give a second/third look at a woman.

12 weeks is when a behavior changed generally becomes a habit. A habit repeated becomes part of your character.

opt