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I believe he is mostly talking about things like schizophrenia, bipolar dis, clinical depression etc. The Axis I disorders. The Axis II disorders are about personality and generally are not thought of as medical illnesses in the same sense.

I think what Dr. Harley is getting at is that, simply because these PD diagnoses exist and people can be diagnosed with them, that seems to confuse people and make them think they are illnesses, things that can't be helped, just like the Axis I disorders. They aren't. I've seen people who would've been diagnosed as sociopaths turn their lives over to Christ and do a complete 180. They would no longer warrant the diagnosis. A lot of it is just sin that has fallen into a pattern that is somewhat predictable.

Last edited by Wonderingif; 11/25/12 09:10 PM.
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In the quoted section Dr Harley talks about "emotional disorders", not "personality disorders". He never used the term PD in that quote. If, as you say, the term "emotional disorder" refers to the types of illness you cite, isn't it true that clinicians WILL attempt to moderate and alleviate those conditions with various therapies, including drugs? They don't see those as untreatable per se, do they?

Dr Harley did not mention PD in that quote and did not say that this woman had PD in that quote.


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Originally Posted By: Wonderingif
I believe he is mostly talking about things like schizophrenia, bipolar dis, clinical depression etc. The Axis I disorders. The Axis II disorders are about personality and generally are not thought of as medical illnesses in the same sense.

I think what Dr. Harley is getting at is that, simply because these PD diagnoses exist and people can be diagnosed with them, that seems to confuse people and make them think they are illnesses, things that can't be helped, just like the Axis I disorders. They aren't. I've seen people who would've been diagnosed as sociopaths turn their lives over to Christ and do a complete 180. They would no longer warrant the diagnosis. A lot of it is just sin that has fallen into a pattern that is somewhat predictable.


Wonder,

A preacher told me the same thing.
The bible does say that our battle is "not against flesh and blood but against spiritual principalities in high places"
I have wondered often about this.
However, it never helps to enable the disorder and behaviors.

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Originally Posted By: Jedi_Knight
Posts by forum member Newly whose husband has NPD:
**edit**


I thought for purposes of this thread we were interested in the Marriage Builders approach to such information, so diagnoses by forum members ought to be excluded and we ought to limit ourselves to Dr. Harley's take on the subject, which is not in accordance with all other psychologists, books, etc.

Last edited by Fireproof; 11/26/12 10:16 AM. Reason: removing link

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Originally Posted By: silentlucidity
PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE TRAITS
*FEAR OF DEPENDENCY - Unsure of his autonomy & afraid of being alone, he fights his dependency needs - usually by trying to control you.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1929664&Searchpage=6&Main=145287&Words=%22disorder%22&Search=true#Post1929664
*FEAR OF INTIMACY - Guarded & often mistrusful, he is reluctant to show his emotional fragility. He's often out of touch with his feelings, reflexively denying feelings he thinks will "trap" or reveal him, like love. He picks fights to create distance.


*FEAR OF COMPETITION - Feeling inadequate, he is unable to compete with other men in work and love. He may operate either as a self-sabotaging wimp with a pattern of failure, or he'll be the tyrant, setting himself up as unassailable and perfect, needing to eliminate any threat to his power.


*OBSTRUCTIONISM - Just tell a p/a man what you want, no matter how small, and he may promise to get it for you. But he won't say when, and he"ll do it deliberately slowly just to frustrate you. Maybe he won't comply at all. He blocks any real progress he sees to your getting your way.


*FOSTERING CHAOS - The p/a man prefers to leave the puzzle incomplete, the job undone.


*FEELING VICTIMIZED - The p/a man protests that others unfairly accuse him rather than owning up to his own misdeeds. To remain above reporach, he sets himself up as the apparently hapless, innocent victim of your excessive demands and tirades.


*MAKING EXCUSES & LYING - The p/a man reaches as far as he can to fabricate excuses for not fulfilling promises. As a way of withholding information, affirmation or love - to have power over you - the p/a man may choose to make up a story rather than give you a straight answer.


*PROCRASTINATION - The p/a man has an odd sense of time - he believes that deadlines don't exist for him.


*CHRONIC LATENESS & FORGETFULNESS - One of the most infuriating & inconsiderate of all p/a traits is his inability to arrive on time. By keeping you waiting, he sets the ground rules of the relationship. And his selective forgetting - used only when he wants to avoid an obligation.


*AMBIGUITY - He is master of mixed messages and sitting on fences. When he tells you something, you may still walk away wondering if he actually said yes or no.


*SULKING - Feeling put upon when he is unable to live up to his promises or obligations, the p/a man retreats from pressures around him and sulks, pouts and withdraws.


A passive-aggressive man won't have every single one of these traits, but he'll have many of them. He may have other traits as well, which are not passive-aggressive.
FROM: Kaplan, H.I. & Saddock, B.J. (1997) SYNOPSIS OF PSYCHIATRY, 8th ed. Baltimore: Williams & Wilkins


The following is an excerpt from the above:


PASSIVE-AGGRESSIVE PERSONALITY DISORDER


People with PAPD are characterized by covert obstructionism, procrastination, stubbornness, and inefficiency. Such behavior is a manifestation of passively expressed underlying aggression. In the DSM-IV the disorder is also called negativistic PD.


CLINICAL FEATURES


PAPD patients characteristically procrastinate, resist demands for adequate performance, find excuses for delays, and find fault with those on whom they depend; yet they refuse to extricate themselves from the dependent relationships. They usually lack assertiveness and are not direct about their own needs and wishes. They fail to ask needed questions about what is expected of them and may become anxious when forced to succeed or when their usual defense of turning anger against themselves is removed.


In interpersonal relationships, these people attempt to manipulate themselves into a position of dependence, but others often experience this passive, self-detrimental behavior as punitive and munipulative. People with this disorder expect others to do their errands and to carry out their routine responsibilities. Friends and clinicians may become enmeshed in trying to assuage the patients' many claims of unjust treatment. The close relationships of people with PAPD, however, are rarely tranquil or happy. Because they are bound to their resentment more closely than to their satisfaction, they may never even formulate goals for finding enjoyment in life. People with this disorder lack self-confidence and are typically pessimistic about the future.


Link to this users posts about PA disorder:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=userposts&id=46741

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Linking a bunch of people's threads is utterly irrelevant for any serious students of Marriage Builders. Please post Dr. Harley sources: articles, book references, interviews, radio shows, etc. Dr. Harley's approach to a lot of subjects is different from random amateur armchair psychology on the net.

For comparison's sake, the main book I used when I started anger management contained comments from the therapist dismissing a couple of personality disorders and suggesting that you dismiss therapists that use them. "If your therapist tells you your husband has "antisocial personality disorder," that just means they think you need to dump him; and if he comes home from a therapist saying you have "borderline personality disorder," that just means his therapist thinks you need to be dumped." I include this just to show Dr. Harley is not alone in being extremely selective about what disorders and treatments he does and does not accept. I suggest that we should be similarly selective as well.

Please give us the actual sources that you have from Dr. Harley regarding your wife's situation. What specific disorder did he think she might have? Did he actually use the term "personality disorder"? Was this a radio show, or personal correspondence?
**edit**

Last edited by Fireproof; 11/26/12 10:18 AM. Reason: removing links

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Totally irrelevant. Spend some time learning what Dr. Harley says about passive aggression and how it is handled in Marriage Builders.

Originally Posted By: Jedi_Knight
Originally Posted By: silentlucidity
PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE TRAITS
*FEAR OF DEPENDENCY - Unsure of his autonomy & afraid of being alone, he fights his dependency needs - usually by trying to control you.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1929664&Searchpage=6&Main=145287&Words=%22disorder%22&Search=true#Post1929664
*FEAR OF INTIMACY - Guarded & often mistrusful, he is reluctant to show his emotional fragility. He's often out of touch with his feelings, reflexively denying feelings he thinks will "trap" or reveal him, like love. He picks fights to create distance.


*FEAR OF COMPETITION - Feeling inadequate, he is unable to compete with other men in work and love. He may operate either as a self-sabotaging wimp with a pattern of failure, or he'll be the tyrant, setting himself up as unassailable and perfect, needing to eliminate any threat to his power.


*OBSTRUCTIONISM - Just tell a p/a man what you want, no matter how small, and he may promise to get it for you. But he won't say when, and he"ll do it deliberately slowly just to frustrate you. Maybe he won't comply at all. He blocks any real progress he sees to your getting your way.


*FOSTERING CHAOS - The p/a man prefers to leave the puzzle incomplete, the job undone.


*FEELING VICTIMIZED - The p/a man protests that others unfairly accuse him rather than owning up to his own misdeeds. To remain above reporach, he sets himself up as the apparently hapless, innocent victim of your excessive demands and tirades.


*MAKING EXCUSES & LYING - The p/a man reaches as far as he can to fabricate excuses for not fulfilling promises. As a way of withholding information, affirmation or love - to have power over you - the p/a man may choose to make up a story rather than give you a straight answer.


*PROCRASTINATION - The p/a man has an odd sense of time - he believes that deadlines don't exist for him.


*CHRONIC LATENESS & FORGETFULNESS - One of the most infuriating & inconsiderate of all p/a traits is his inability to arrive on time. By keeping you waiting, he sets the ground rules of the relationship. And his selective forgetting - used only when he wants to avoid an obligation.


*AMBIGUITY - He is master of mixed messages and sitting on fences. When he tells you something, you may still walk away wondering if he actually said yes or no.


*SULKING - Feeling put upon when he is unable to live up to his promises or obligations, the p/a man retreats from pressures around him and sulks, pouts and withdraws.


A passive-aggressive man won't have every single one of these traits, but he'll have many of them. He may have other traits as well, which are not passive-aggressive.
FROM: Kaplan, H.I. & Saddock, B.J. (1997) SYNOPSIS OF PSYCHIATRY, 8th ed. Baltimore: Williams & Wilkins


The following is an excerpt from the above:


PASSIVE-AGGRESSIVE PERSONALITY DISORDER


People with PAPD are characterized by covert obstructionism, procrastination, stubbornness, and inefficiency. Such behavior is a manifestation of passively expressed underlying aggression. In the DSM-IV the disorder is also called negativistic PD.


CLINICAL FEATURES


PAPD patients characteristically procrastinate, resist demands for adequate performance, find excuses for delays, and find fault with those on whom they depend; yet they refuse to extricate themselves from the dependent relationships. They usually lack assertiveness and are not direct about their own needs and wishes. They fail to ask needed questions about what is expected of them and may become anxious when forced to succeed or when their usual defense of turning anger against themselves is removed.


In interpersonal relationships, these people attempt to manipulate themselves into a position of dependence, but others often experience this passive, self-detrimental behavior as punitive and munipulative. People with this disorder expect others to do their errands and to carry out their routine responsibilities. Friends and clinicians may become enmeshed in trying to assuage the patients' many claims of unjust treatment. The close relationships of people with PAPD, however, are rarely tranquil or happy. Because they are bound to their resentment more closely than to their satisfaction, they may never even formulate goals for finding enjoyment in life. People with this disorder lack self-confidence and are typically pessimistic about the future.


Link to this users posts about PA disorder:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=userposts&id=46741


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 17 years, who is a beautiful angel.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Originally Posted By: Jedi_Knight
[
Link to this users posts about PA disorder:

\

ok, but what does DR HARLEY say about passive aggressive people? He most certainly DOES NOT SAY that "Basically, persons with serious emotional disorders cannot have a MB marriage model." Not at all.

What matters around here is Dr. Harley's opinion on these issues. And I will just inform you that he hears people labeled as "passive aggressive," "borderline", "narcissistic" all the time and he still guides them right through the program. He dismisses those labels and instead helps people work on their marriages.

I know it is politically correct and trendy cute to label every damn thing some disorder, but it really is a distraction. I related to almost EVERY definition you posted about your wife but I am fully capable of using the POJA. [although it was very hard!]

If you post this stuff about passive aggressive and narcissistic "disorders" after you have posted that people with disorders cannot have a MB marriage, people will believe you. One of the greatest dangers in marriage recovery are spouses who "diagnose" their spouse with some syndrome.

In the matter of "passive aggressive" Dr Harley also hears this oft-diagnosed disorder over on the private forum. He doesn't tell them MB won't work, he tells them to follow the program:

Originally Posted By: Dr BIll Harley to wife over on private forum
Read my response that I just wrote to your your husband's question regarding his passive-aggressive behavior. The solution to your marital problems is to create transparency, and to make all of your decisions together with mutual enthusiasm. It's not your husband's personality that is preventing him from achieving those objectives -- it's his habits. If he is willing to practice following the Policy of Radical Honesty and the Policy of Joint Agreement every day of the week, he will become increasingly skilled in living with you in harmony, and you, in turn, will eventually trust him. If you give him another chance to practice following those policies, and he practices them every day, his habits will change.
here

There are very, very few instances of spouses who can't use this program so I would be real careful with threads like this. People are easily influenced and already get carried away with armchair diagnoses of their spouses. It is destructive and dangerous and Dr Harley tells people NOT to do it.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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MB Radio link:

Dr Harley addresses personality disorders and types.
He explains that if persons with a personality disorder chose to follow his program they can do so successfully.
He also cautions some simply can't become more thoughtful.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=0754#

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MB Radio Link:

Dr Harley addresses a case of Electric Fence Personality.
The mother has left her children and husband and Dr Harley says she is limited in her ability to meet husbands emotional needs and unable to care for children.
Dr Harley encourages husband to cater to wife's needs without expectation of having his needs met (plan A for life)

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=1494#

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Originally Posted By: Jedi_Knight
MB Radio link:

Dr Harley addresses personality disorders and types.
He explains that if persons with a personality disorder chose to follow his program they can do so successfully.
He also cautions some simply can't become more thoughtful.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=0754#


He says that most people he has worked with throughout his career have "personality disorders." "Just because a person has a personality disorder does not mean they can't work this program."

He has never had a case where the program didn't work when they worked it, regardless of their "disorder." "People can rise above their personality problems and become thoughtful people."

He discusses the personality test he gives us when we sign up for his course. The higher the score, the harder it will be to use the program. I - personally - scored VERY HIGH and even though it has been tough, I have learned to be thoughtful and have learned to use the POJA.

I know someone on this thread who scored HIGHER than me and they are able to use the program too!!


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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MB Radio Link:

(second part, near end); Dr Harley addresses a caller whose wife was diagnosed with BPD. she is having an affair and move in with her boyfriend.
Dr Harley said BPD is controversial in the scientific community and states that a primary symptom is self mutilation. He said if the patient is not self
Mutilating he questions the validity of the diagnosis:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=0479#

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MB Radio Link:

A man calls in and is concerned that his girlfriend isn't serious about their relationship. The girlfriend was diagnosed with a narcissistic personality.
Dr Harley explains he is very skeptical of personality type disorders because there is no treatment plan available.

He said narcissistic personalities only care about themselves. He also cautioned that a "person can be attracted to someone who likes them as much as they like themselves"

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=01941#

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MB Radio Link:

A man calls in to the show. His wife has been diagnosed with BPD.
The mans wife has left the home. Dr Harley explains people with BPD don't leave partners. They are left and will self mutilate to get the mate back.
Dr Harley said the wife probably isn't BPD but is instead emotionally reactive.
He explains that marriages with emotionally reactive persons usually don't last very long without professional intervention.

He also said BPD is usually fired from jobs.



http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=02198#

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MB Radio Link:

Dr Harley states that personality disorders can't be "cured" and he considers these disorders to actually be traits.
He said there is a difference between emotional disorders and personality disorders.
This emailer asks If MB concepts work with someone that has a disorder.
Dr Harley said people that are married to chronically depressed people will not have their emotional needs met and it will be an unhappy marriage.
He recommends individual therapy for those with emotional disorders.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=02045#

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MB Radio Link:

A woman calls into the Radio show.
Dr Harley said that her boyfriend has a mental disorder and she helps him function better.
Dr Harley encourages her to carefully consider if she wants to marry "someone who needs her". He cautions against her entering a marriage where she would essentially be a caregiver.
She replied that she would like him to meet her emotional needs but Dr Harley replied that this man is probably incapable of doing so.

She asks about POJA and Dr Harley said that the POJA does not apply in cases of health or safety.

Part 1:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=03549


Part 2:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=03550#


Last edited by Jedi_Knight; 11/26/12 01:14 AM.
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MB Radio Link:

Dr. Harley discusses Explosive Disorder. He says it is angry outbursts and people are actually insane during an angry outburst:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=02658#

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Please stick to Dr. Harley's comments when adding references. Adding old posts from various posters only adds confusion and does not help the reader understand Dr. Harley's views.

Thank you.

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Originally Posted By: Wonderingif
A lot of it is just sin that has fallen into a pattern that is somewhat predictable.


I tend to agree. Our culture has long been trending towards replacing the language of sin, personal responsibility and consequences towards the language of disorder, addition and compassionate therapy. Unrepentant sinners are off the hook. Now they are victims just 12 steps away from a "cure".


That being said, I'm not saying it wasn't relevant to any specific person (Jedi...we got to witness first hand how crazy seeming your wife was as you went through your ordeal) however, I think it's much more rare than it seems to be on infidelity forums for the simply fact that betrayed spouses love to jump at and cling to the notion that their spouse is crazy because it softens the hit to their self-esteem and it frees them from all responsibility for the breakdown in marital relations (they don't have to look at their side of the fence). I few years ago there was even one guy posting here that miraculously had TWO "crazy" "disordered" wayward ex-wives. What are the odds of that? However, if you are reading this thread wondering if your spouse is crazy too, absent a previous diagnosis, I caution you that although waywardism is a characteristic of many disorders and waywards tend to demonstrate other diagnostic characteristics WHILST wayward, waywardism alone is not a mental disorder and MB can and should be still attempted first because it's unlikely your spouse is truly mentally ill. Unfortunately, way too many betrayed spouses spend way too much time trying to psycho-analyze and internet diagnose their wayward spouses...time that could much better be spent fighting the affair, learning the MB program, taking care of themselves, taking care of their families, working at their jobs, etc.

Here's an excerpt from Dr. Harley from the article What Is Sexual Addiction?
Quote:


Why are you having marital problems?

That's a question I ask couples when I try to help create a plan for their marriage. I want to know which emotional needs are being unmet and which Love Busters are running amok. But a response I've heard throughout my career as a marriage counselor is, "my spouse is insane," or something to that effect.

I'll admit that I've seen a few cases of insanity among struggling couples. But it's much rarer than most people think. Those I've treated for serious mental disorders have tended to be single, not married. The process of courting usually eliminates from contention those who are truly insane. So why would a spouse conclude that the root of their marital problems is found in the other spouse's mental disorder? One answer is that it usually deflects attention from their own contribution to the problem. Instead of joining in a mutual effort to solve their marital problems, with each accepting some responsibility, one spouse wants the other to be "fixed." Extensive therapy is usually suggested giving the "healthy" spouse the right to sit on the sidelines waiting to judge the final result.

But over the years, I've witnessed a new class of answers to the question, why are you having marital problems? It's, "my spouse is an addict." I've found this answer to be increasing, while the insanity answer seems to be decreasing.

The reason for that answer, to avoid personal responsibility for the marital problem, might still be the primary motive. But it's a more compelling answer than the insanity answer. Indeed, in our developing culture addiction appears to be on the increase, and it's often a major factor in creating serious marital problems.

In the final analysis, however, everyone's marital problems revolve around spouses failing to meet important emotional needs or failing to avoid Love Busters. So, like the insanity answer, the addiction answer is relevant to the issue only if it can be shown that it contributes to those failures.

So my question, why are you having marital problems, must first be answered in terms of unmet emotional needs and Love Busters. Then, after an effort has been made to meet those needs and avoid Love Busters, and that effort fails, a deeper analysis may find that a mental disorder or an addiction may be standing in the way.

Full Article: What is Sexual Addiction?


Godspeed,

Mr. W

Last edited by MrWondering; 11/26/12 11:08 AM.

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DD19 DS 22 Dday-2005-Recovered

"agree to disagree" = Used when one wants to reject the objective reality of the situation and hopefully replace it with their own.
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MB Radio Link:

Dr Harley discusses phobias. He says that fear is an inherited trait and standard tests like the MMPI recognize differences in anxiety by gender.
He cautions spouses that dont have anxiety to not readily dismiss fears by their wifes anxiety. He encourages men to reach out and ask how they can help the anxious person calm down.

He said there is drug therapy and behavior therapy succesive approximation to help people overcome this.
He encourages people with phobia to visit a specialist and the treatment is nearly 100% effective. (personal note: in my case I simply enabled the phobias or dismissed them. As an example, my wife had a phobia about vaccinations. So I enabled it by not vaccinating the children. Dr Harley has said in cases where health or safety is affected then the POJA does not apply)

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=00027#

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