He knows I'm unhappy enough to leave. I certainly tell him that, but he likely thinks I'm bluffing, and I am, in the short term; but I'm serious about the ultimate demise of this relationship. I just haven't worked up the nerve, and have little money to go anywhere.

Yes, by romantic intimacy, I would like some daily one:one talk time. Some romantic gestures. I send him sweet notes and would like the same. I occasionally get him little gifts or surprises. I'd like the same. I want to be held and gazed at sometimes, not just sitting shoulder to shoulder watching explosions on tv. I've said all of these things in writing and face to face. Very little happens for long. I know he loves me in his own way, kinda like how a master loves it's wayward poodle; but I would like a more mature, adult kinda of love, between secure human beings.

I will try that tonight. I've tried similar, and his response is that we are no longer dating and he isn't a romantic person. But I'll try.

Well of course he would need to 'want to'!!! That's obvious he would need a desire to talk.

There was no gun in his back when he was courting you! But context has changed since then.

I would use the POJA steps to discover what situations he finds encourage his conversation and which situations he finds off putting.

Most people find eliminating lovebusters helps create an environment for conversation.

We can coach you in a Plan A. Read the links and come back.

Because he thinks there is no harm in that.

It is MASSIVELY important you tell him you are 'falling out of love' and considering leaving. Stay calm throughout and excuse yourself if things get heated. Keep it a cheerful, kind tone.

You're trying to help both of you with honesty here. So make sure you sound helpful.

If you downplay the complaint you'll get a downplayed response. So use radical honesty, delivered in a firm but fair tone.

1. Psychology, sociology, and philosophy... just this morning, my dreams and hopes for a career outside of the home next year(I've been a SAH/WAH mom for everish), building a home, our credit...very long term goals for our lives.
2. Bills, basketball, very short term goals for our lives, "Hi...just wanted to say hi to say hi", "What are you doing?" and then before I can respond he's lost in the internet or in some other activity. After about 5 minutes, he's usually bored. I prefer involved conversations that could very well last hours, but if not that, at least enough to not be simply skimming surfaces.

If he responds with a complaint, say about your time together, listen calmly and promise to address it.

Got it. Will do. Update tomorrow. Thanks everyone. I know I'm a mess, but I do feel a bit better.

Can you think of a need of his you met while dating that you do less of now?

It sounds to me like he has a high RC need for example?

You need to get across your seriousness that you would leave. That is just RH.

In Plan A it's preferable not to just 'up and leave' anyway. Rather you say 'it's coming unless things change' and you prepare to go, save up while negotiating calmly all the while.

Then in Plan B he has the opportunity to change and win you round if he wants you to move back.

Glad to hear it. Remember the magic three words: cheerfulness, honesty and listening.

And also remember Rome wasn't built in a day

i have another Q: are you a good *listener?* do you actively listen when he talks, or point out his errors in thinking, change the subject to what you want to talk about, remember what he's said? (i was bad at this.)

Wow, your thread is growing fast!!! You have gotten some really good advice. Just keep coming back and posting. It is amazing how you WILL feel understood here.

You can be firm, but loving in establishing your boundaries. Be confident that you deserve his care and protection. You can't MAKE him give it to you though...... So, read up on Plan A. Be the best you can be. Start working on your AO's and DJ's, cleaning up your behaviors. Do the things you are supposed to do. Be cheerful, thankful, enjoy life and your children. Be positive, etc...... These are things that you should want for yourself anyway. Let him know how good you really are and give him the idea of what he would be missing if he didn't choose to work on your marriage.

Keep your head up!!!! Enjoy this process (as much as you can enjoy something like this.) You will come out a much better person after having gone through this. We will be here for you (if not pushing you!!!!)

Admiration. He needs it, and I have trouble giving it as well I could. When we met I was a naive, depressed, teenager. He was an older guy. I'd never dated an older guy before and was eager to learn from him, until I got to know him and the outlandish behavior began. I came out of my depression and seemed to have lost my appeal. Wasn't so vulnerable or easy to push around like he thought. It went downhill from there. Resentment set in and I realized he didn't actually know any more than I did about most anything. I reached a point when I decided to stay that I could still give it frequently, but it's been a long time together, and so my abilities and incentives are escaping me.

He does have a high need for RC, and he gets it met for the most part. He'd like me to run with him or work out at a gym, so we agreed to start off with morning walks(running causes my legs severe pain sometimes), and he woke up one time early enough in order to meet that agreement. So I'm led to believe that he's just stalling.

So I tried tonight. Approached him cheery and all. He was angry with me concerning the argument we had this morning that brought me here, and the fact that he mostly watched the kids today because I retreated after he refused to talk to me. He shut me down and said he wasn't interested in talking, but listened for 5-minutes(said he enthusiastically agreed, but apparently changed his mind in seconds). I gave him the EN Q and the one I filled out and he threw it across the room. I believe he said "F! this S! about your needs and that you're unhappy." So needless to say, it didn't go over well. Standard. Going to bed now.

And thanks LB3!

So what was this prior fight about?

Lack of undivided attention, on my part; disturbing his independent behavior on his part. We woke up and were in the kitchen together. I had a dream that I was attempting to share with him about our future. He was FBing and message boarding on a sports site and told me to stop talking about what I was talking about. He was tired of hearing about my long range plans because they change and because I get too excited about things that may not actually happen. This is an argument that we have all too frequently and it morphed from there into mudslinging.

This fight? This fight about his not paying you enough attention, IB and lovebusters is what prompted you to post here?



You say this argument brought you here, yet you never mentioned it until this point!

Your first post does not ONCE mention the very issues you now claim expressly brought you here.

Lots to say about snooping though. Full of opinions on that:



Lots of demonising of your husband too, purely for having the gall to look where he has every right to look.

1) You are trying to deter transparency in your M.
2) Your H's reasonable behaviour is demonised
And
3) Your story does not add up. IB and lack of needs did not bring you here. A fear of snooping did.

Let's stop writing and rewriting this tale and cut to the chase:

What is you do not want your H to find out with his snooping?

The arm chair psychoanalysis is getting redundant. I'm not new to MB, just the forums. I've been aware of MB most of our marriage and I read the articles frequently, but have not really been able to implement much. Somewhere in the fallout of our argument yesterday keylogging came up because he was on FB when I was attempting to talk to him and was trying to shut me down. The first time I read Dr. Harley's spying article was yesterday, which prompted me to originally post about it since it was what had me incensed at the point I signed on. There's no dirty little secret, just bits and pieces of a decades worth story.

As far as I know, my husband is not currently snooping, but his past snooping(which was part of our argument yesterday) in addition to his denial of my access to do the same made me furious(amongst other things...as I said in the title).

Again, he has my passwords, I do not have his. He has had mine for YEARS now and has snooped since before we dated. He has never uncovered anything in our marriage that would have him to believe I am not open with him about who I speak to and what I do.

I find snooping distasteful and sketchy unless someone is waving red flags around and the truth cannot be had above ground. It's even worse if you'd hate someone doing it to you. It suggest a serious superiority complex. I have not given him cause in this marriage and never did, and feel like his behavior was invasive and unwarranted. I imagine he feels the same way, which is why he does not approve of my doing it to him.

I have no clue if he spies on me or not, but if he is doing it, I wouldn't be surprised. He's not beyond poker faced lying. This is not a judgement against anyone here who spies, and I apologize if that's what has come across. I clearly understand your argument for spying, and his past ones as well(which is why I appeased him), that does not make me a fan in the slightest. If you do not understand how a person who is not guilty of crime would not like to spied on and supervised, then I'm not the one to convince you. There are many articles out there about such, and entire groups of people who have endured such behavior in the name of others protecting themselves from them. The burden is on you to understand-or not. I have clearly explained myself on this issue.

If that's not enough, let's say that I try not to prescribe to an ends justifies the means philosophy, however justifiable, rational, or self-preserving. And let's just say it's for spiritual purposes and move forward, please. I'm not angry today, and would like some coaching on what I could've done better last night.

I'd also like to note that I did Plan A last year. It worked for a bit and then things went back to the status quo.

OK. Have a good weekend

Yep, I'm with you, Indiegirl, trying to get a straight story out of this one is about like trying to nail Jello to the wall. I will never get back the time I wasted here yesterday and have no intention of losing any more time!

OK .. i read the entire thread.

I think the OP needs to get snooping. There is many red flags between them both. Her husbands refusal to cooperate is a HUGE red flag to me.

I have no doubts that her hubby is all secretive because he is hiding some kind of EA or PA... possibly even she is too ... heck both of them maybe have something to hide that they are afraid to reveal to the other in fear of the consequences.

Get snooping ... you owe it to your family .. and kids to find out what your hubby is REALLY up to. If your snooping causes him to leave (provided he catches you) .. then you get your wish. He may have a reaction similar to your own (angry and defensive) but just be calm .. cool .. and collective about it.

IF you snoop (i HIGHLY suggest a keylogger on the PC and possibly a logger on his cell phone) Bring the info here so we can guide you with the proper steps to recover (DO NOT CONFRONT). If you find nothing ... then you can feel better. The purpose of snooping is to feel secure knowing that our spouses have our best interests in mind without us knowing they do. This creates trust. You dont have to snoop forever... infact, if you dont find anything at all .. you will get bored of the snooping and most likely forget about it.

Its hard to get out of the vicious cycle of withdrawl.... its far easier to complain... be critical etc when your in the state of withdrawl or conflict .. than be nice and try to plug those nasty lovebuster holes that are draining your love accounts for each other.

MNG

Thanks for your reply. We're supposed to be doing the EN together tonight. Had one agreement that seems to have gone over well. Get the feeling I wont be welcomed here unless I snoop and admit to things I haven't done. Is there no acceptable alternative to snooping in Mb? Not trying to be a time waster, but I will not be bullied or shamed into doing something against my better judgement . I was angry, but I'm not cynical and I'm ok with trusting my intuition.

[quote=MrNiceGuy]OK .. i read the entire thread.

I think the OP needs to get snooping. There is many red flags between them both. Her husbands refusal to cooperate is a HUGE red flag to me.

I have no doubts that her hubby is all secretive because he is hiding some kind of EA or PA... possibly even she is too ... heck both of them maybe have something to hide that they are afraid to reveal to the other in fear of the consequences.

Get snooping ... you owe it to your family .. and kids to find out what your hubby is REALLY up to. If your snooping causes him to leave (provided he catches you) .. then you get your wish. He may have a reaction similar to your own (angry and defensive) but just be calm .. cool .. and collective about it.

IF you snoop (i HIGHLY suggest a keylogger on the PC and possibly a logger on his cell phone) Bring the info here so we can guide you with the proper steps to recover (DO NOT CONFRONT). If you find nothing ... then you can feel better. The purpose of snooping is to feel secure knowing that our spouses have our best interests in mind without us knowing they do. This creates trust. You dont have to snoop forever... infact, if you dont find anything at all .. you will get bored of the snooping and most likely forget about it.

Its hard to get out of the vicious cycle of withdrawl.... its far easier to complain... be critical etc when your in the state of withdrawl or conflict .. than be nice and try to plug those nasty lovebuster holes that are draining your love accounts for each other.

MNG