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"How do you feel about?" is not about asking permission or seeking approval. It's not a tool to get what you want - it's a tool for building your marriage.
What you are looking for is something your wife would enjoy.
Do you think your wife would enjoy your parents coming to visit? I don't. Your family has hurt her terribly. Mentioning them to her is a painful reminder of the painful past that the two of you have.
Maybe you should replace "how would you feel about?" with "would you enjoy?" And ask yourself the question before you ask her. "Would my wife enjoy my folks coming down?" If you don't think she would really enjoy it, don't suggest it.
Your wife's suggestion that you run these questions by the board is a good one. It would be interesting to see you post "Do you guys think my wife would enjoy my parents coming to visit?" here and us to all discuss it. But in order to save your marriage you need to learn to think skillfully about what your wife would enjoy and recognize what she does not enjoy.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Remark is responsible for his behavior.
JD2D is responsible for her behavior.
Look at the article about Angry Outbursts. In the article Dr. Harley describes an angry outburst as words designed to hurt your spouse. I'm simply saying that I missed where that happened and you guys apparently did not. (I still don't see it and you guys refuse to quote it) Coffeegirl, and anyone else, If I say something you feel is "designed to hurt my spouse", please call me out on it. Remark
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"How do you feel about?" is not about asking permission or seeking approval. It's not a tool to get what you want - it's a tool for building your marriage.
What you are looking for is something your wife would enjoy.
Do you think your wife would enjoy your parents coming to visit? I don't. Your family has hurt her terribly. Mentioning them to her is a painful reminder of the painful past that the two of you have.My family is very sensitive to her wishes and respectful of her now.
Maybe you should replace "how would you feel about?" with "would you enjoy?" OK, I like that wording and will use it. And ask yourself the question before you ask her. "Would my wife enjoy my folks coming down?" If you don't think she would really enjoy it, don't suggest it.Yet at the same time, she complains that they never come down here, we have done most of the traveling and she won't go up there. Meanwhile, they would like to come down here before the weather turns wintry.
Your wife's suggestion that you run these questions by the board is a good one. So, is the 'board' the 'forum'? If so, OK, I'm in. It would be interesting to see you post "Do you guys think my wife would enjoy my parents coming to visit?" here and us to all discuss it. But in order to save your marriage you need to learn to think skillfully about what your wife would enjoy and recognize what she does not enjoy. OK, I understand that, yet I will never be the quick responding skilled debater/oratoer she is. And capitulation is not an option, of course.
Thanks, Remark
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Do you think your wife would enjoy your parents coming to visit? I don't. Your family has hurt her terribly. Mentioning them to her is a painful reminder of the painful past that the two of you have. My family is very sensitive to her wishes and respectful of her now. Maybe you should replace "how would you feel about?" with "would you enjoy?" OK, I like that wording and will use it. And ask yourself the question before you ask her. "Would my wife enjoy my folks coming down?" If you don't think she would really enjoy it, don't suggest it. Yet at the same time, she complains that they never come down here, we have done most of the traveling and she won't go up there. Meanwhile, they would like to come down here before the weather turns wintry. Okay, so answer me, Remark - do you think there's any chance your wife would enjoy having your family come to visit?
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Do you think that spending some time with your parents is something your wife would enjoy?
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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1. It is for her to say if your family is respectful or not. Also, she doesn't have to justify why she likes or dislikes something/ one.
2. Is the travel issue a current complaint, rehash of an old one or a way to avoid your family that you might accept? (Don't need an answer, just food for thought.)
3. It is okay to ask for time to think. It is not okay to use this as a way to avoid complaints. Can you take notes if you need more than a minute or 2, then review them each day? Perhaps schedule a specific time.
I too have focus issues but luckily I have a smart phone. If you have one, the alarm clock and calendars are extremely helpful memory aides.
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It isn't true that Remark isn't doing anything he has been assigned. He has made an enormous number of mistakes, but to say he has not tried and hasn't done anything and hasn't tried to win her over is just incredibly cruel to do to a person in an abused marriage. Remark, man I can only imagine how hard this must feel to you, like the final exam being here and you need more time. The one assignment I heard posted was about a spreadsheet of things to suggest for POJA, and the follow-up I heard was that there were like 3 lines on it only. Is that accurate? Would you say that you have been taking consistent action trying to win your wife over? Is there more support you want from us here?
Me 40, OD 18 and YD 13
Married 15 years, Divorced 10/2010
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At the moment, folks, I am researching wild flowers; something she said would be extraordinary care to her.
I care. I'm just hard pressed to know how to impress her favorably these days. And, I am not up to arguing about everything.
I understand that people, any two people are going to disagree. I just don't enjoy or deal with with as well as most folks apparently.
We had this exchange today and she suggested I post it.
Remark: How would you feel about my folks coming down here the weekend of Sep 19-20 th ? ( I think I mentioned this already, but I�d like to clarify. )
JD2D: Yes, you did already mention that you already had plans for them coming down. I have no feelings about your independent lifestyle, as we are divorcing. (Marriage requires PoJA and this is not.)
Remark: How would you feel if I ran up to DSM again soon, as my cousin from Seattle, WA, sent me an e-mail asking what D & C�s plans are in September. He wants to make a surprise visit to see my folks in Sep?
J2D: I have no feelings about your independent lifestyle, as we are divorcing. (An independent lifestyle doesn't work in a healthy marriage.)
Remark:Also, Sunday, Sep 13 th is Mom's 70th birthday.
JD2D: Thank you for that information.
JD2D: Why don't you present these questions to the forum before you present them to me? I don't know why you're bothering to go thru the motions when you seem so indifferent to whether you're doing them right. The forum has given you tons of valuable information and you seem to just ignore it. If (the requirements of) marriage is this awkward/unnatural/unpleasant/difficult/distasteful/?? to you, why don't you just own that you're not interested in being married to me and embrace divorce? Your "words" simply aren't going to do it for you anymore, and the actions are non-existent.
And by the way, if you're going to quote "my words" on your posts, please use the correct ones. I said you're "not doing PoJA," I didn't say you don't know how.
Any POJA advice accepted. Thanks, Remark I havent kept up with your thread but i dont we how you can use the POJA if your wife said she is divorcing you and doesn't care about you. Insofar as I understand that you have consulted Steve Harley in the past, i suggest you contact him and forward him these texts; ask him if he feels you should continue to attempt POJA with her. Realistically you cant POJA if she divorces you because both spouses must agree to follow the POJA.
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It isn't true that Remark isn't doing anything he has been assigned. He has made an enormous number of mistakes, but to say he has not tried and hasn't done anything and hasn't tried to win her over is just incredibly cruel to do to a person in an abused marriage. Remark, man I can only imagine how hard this must feel to you, like the final exam being here and you need more time. The one assignment I heard posted was about a spreadsheet of things to suggest for POJA, and the follow-up I heard was that there were like 3 lines on it only. Is that accurate? Would you say that you have been taking consistent action trying to win your wife over? Is there more support you want from us here? NED, Yes, I feel like a very steep, if not impossible, "hill to climb" stands in front of me. It is true, I have not done a good or consistent job of logging entries in my log. I have more than three entries, but less than the 45-60 days since Steve and I talked about it. Most days, I don't even have much communication/contact with her. So, I don't have anything to log most days. And, when my last exchange with her was so unpleasant, I just don't have the backbone or whatever to engage or initiate even a conversation because inevitably, it will turn negative. (I know Dr H supports complaining, but there has to be a balanced with healthy EN's being met, right?) As lonely as I am, I feel less alone when NOT in her company, than I do when in her company, ( if that makes sense. ) No, I don't know what more support I you all might lend me. I appreciate it. I truly do and I do believe in Harley principles. I am ashamed of the 20 yrs of neglect that have hurt JD2D so much. I know how happy, delightful and loving, she can be from years back, before her hurt/pain. I seem to be the cause of her unhappiness, at this point. I just don't see her coming out of it to be a Harley wife, just as she doesn't see me giving up all I have to, to be a Harley husband in her mind. Thanks, Remark
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Do you think your wife would enjoy your parents coming to visit? I don't. Your family has hurt her terribly. Mentioning them to her is a painful reminder of the painful past that the two of you have. My family is very sensitive to her wishes and respectful of her now. Maybe you should replace "how would you feel about?" with "would you enjoy?" OK, I like that wording and will use it. And ask yourself the question before you ask her. "Would my wife enjoy my folks coming down?" If you don't think she would really enjoy it, don't suggest it. Yet at the same time, she complains that they never come down here, we have done most of the traveling and she won't go up there. Meanwhile, they would like to come down here before the weather turns wintry. Okay, so answer me, Remark - do you think there's any chance your wife would enjoy having your family come to visit? Markos, No, she probably wouldn't. They are family though, and they love and support me emotionally. I have stood up for JD2D to them and they are respectful. So, I won't abandon them for the wife I know JD2D to be in the past 8-10 years. I know my mistakes and faults. I am being honest with myself and you when I say what I just said. Anyway, they would be staying at my condo with me, not bothering her in any way. If/when we go to dinner or something, I plan on asking her if she'd care to come along. But, it will be her choice, not my demand. And, my mom, whom JD2D is closest to, is planning on giving her a call to see if she wants to get together. Thanks, Remark
Last edited by Remark; 09/02/15 08:16 AM. Reason: clarify
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Okay, so answer me, Remark - do you think there's any chance your wife would enjoy having your family come to visit? Markos, No, she probably wouldn't. Then don't ask her how she would feel about it - you already know that she is not enthusiastic about it. Asking her how she feels about it is just going to bother her. They are family though, and they love and support me emotionally. If you want to pick your family over your marriage then I would say stop even having contact with JustDaytoDay. Just get a quick divorce and have done with it. Nobody can make a marriage work if they pick their family over their marriage.
Last edited by markos; 09/02/15 09:58 AM.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Prisca, First, you need to understand, W wanted to spend first session talking about the family dynamic. So, we did. Steve laid it out to me that Biblically, my wife MUST come first, just as the forum has said, to establish the "glue" of our relationship. So, he is going to focus on that initially, refining my "compass" on that issue. He was semi-encouraging. I'll be calling the MB office on Monday to set up next session. Any thoughts/advice? Thanks, remadk What about this?
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He focuses, on us, at least, with creating the feeling of connectedness, that we currently do not have. Remark, is your wife co-operating with "creating the feeling of connectedness that we currently do not have"? What is Steve making you do each week to forge this connectedness? Is your wife doing what he suggests? JD2D is very reluctant to encourage any feeling of connectedness, understandably. Steve and I are working on a daily operational plan where I do everything in my power create the conditions for her to engage and participate. But, I cannot demand it. And, I don't see it happening in any short timeframe. This daily operational plan will help me address my specific LB's ( as defined by her), and replace my that LB with a different behavior. Same with EN's, though she'll have nothing to do with any EN's until all LB's are eliminated, as per Dr H. She has participated with Steve in two sessions, but is done with that. Thanks, Remark And what about this?
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He focuses, on us, at least, with creating the feeling of connectedness, that we currently do not have. Remark, is your wife co-operating with "creating the feeling of connectedness that we currently do not have"? What is Steve making you do each week to forge this connectedness? Is your wife doing what he suggests? JD2D is very reluctant to encourage any feeling of connectedness, understandably. Steve and I are working on a daily operational plan where I do everything in my power create the conditions for her to engage and participate. But, I cannot demand it. And, I don't see it happening in any short timeframe. This daily operational plan will help me address my specific LB's ( as defined by her), and replace my that LB with a different behavior. Same with EN's, though she'll have nothing to do with any EN's until all LB's are eliminated, as per Dr H. She has participated with Steve in two sessions, but is done with that. Thanks, Remark And what about this? DQ, Admittedly, I have done a lousy job of maintaining that log. Many days, we don't even communicate as I spend time with our son and then drop him off. I have grown to appreciate not having to interact with JD2D. So, on those days, I have nothing to place on the log for that day, good or bad. The goal was to be able to show JD2D a list of the things I've done for her that day, changes I've made. That dwindles with less interaction. I'm doing my best, but need something to look forward to. And, I just don't perceive much right now. Did that answer your question? Thanks, Remark
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Okay, so answer me, Remark - do you think there's any chance your wife would enjoy having your family come to visit? Markos, No, she probably wouldn't. Then don't ask her how she would feel about it - you already know that she is not enthusiastic about it. Asking her how she feels about it is just going to bother her. They are family though, and they love and support me emotionally. If you want to pick your family over your marriage then I would say stop even having contact with JustDaytoDay. Just get a quick divorce and have done with it. Nobody can make a marriage work if they pick their family over their marriage. Markos, I understand that concept. I'm not picking family over JD2D. I'm sorry I mentioned family. But, there are things in our situation that I can't live by. Family and wife should not be an either/or situation in my mind. The only person making it that is JD2D. And I just don't believe it is a matter of me not cleaving. There is more to it than that. Thanks, Remark
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Markos,
I understand that concept. I'm not picking family over JD2D. I'm sorry I mentioned family. But, there are things in our situation that I can't live by. Family and wife should not be an either/or situation in my mind. The only person making it that is JD2D. And I just don't believe it is a matter of me not cleaving. There is more to it than that.
Thanks, Remark If you are doing anything with your family that your wife is not enthusiastic about, then you ARE choosing your family over your wife. Family and wife should not be an either/or situation in my mind. The only person making it that is JD2D. That is extraordinarily disrespectful to your wife.
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Markos,
I understand that concept. I'm not picking family over JD2D. I'm sorry I mentioned family. But, there are things in our situation that I can't live by. Family and wife should not be an either/or situation in my mind. The only person making it that is JD2D. And I just don't believe it is a matter of me not cleaving. There is more to it than that.
Thanks, Remark If you are doing anything with your family that your wife is not enthusiastic about, then you ARE choosing your family over your wife. Family and wife should not be an either/or situation in my mind. The only person making it that is JD2D. That is extraordinarily disrespectful to your wife. P, I don't understand the disrespect. Please explain. And then, let's leave the family aspect out of it. I have more issues to address over that one, right? Thanks, Remark
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You are blaming your wife for the way she feels.
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You are blaming your wife for the way she feels. Apples, Huh? I realize I can't change that feeling of hers even though I've tried to help assuage that feeling for many years. That feeling isn't going to change, she said. And I believe her. No blame. Just sadness because I know I am responsible for it. Thanks, Remark
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They are family though, and they love and support me emotionally. You are having your needs met by your family. I understand that concept. I'm not picking family over JD2D. I'm sorry I mentioned family. But, there are things in our situation that I can't live by. Family and wife should not be an either/or situation in my mind. The only person making it that is JD2D. And I just don't believe it is a matter of me not cleaving. There is more to it than that. If you would have POJA'd in the past, there would have been an uncomfortable "default" situation without a solution. That discomfort would have urged you to brainstorm for a solution. If during that time you would have shown extraordinary care for your wife, by now, you would have resolved this conflict. Because of your actions (dentist incident being the latest), your wife knows you value your family over her. Your wife never wanted you to cut off your family completely, she wanted you to show your care for her. You cannot undo the past. You can try to understand what your actions have caused and how to avoid that in the future. At this moment, it is nearly impossible to deposit. I is very easy to withdraw. I remember Dr. Harley said one LB equals 20 deposits. Be careful with LB's, you cannot afford them.
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