DH (MindMonkey)and I are recovering from ( I am ashamed to say) my second affair. He has been posting on the forum since August. I have been reading his postings and following along. I always thought about posting but up until now I never really felt like I had a reason to post a question. I have read SAA, HNHN, and LB�s, and I thought I had a good understanding of Dr. H�s principles and knew what I needed to do. For a while things seemed to be going well. But things between us have yet to be consistently good, and I am struggling to understand what I am doing wrong in recovery, or what I need to be doing differently and or better. I am going to add a link to his posting, since it may be redundant to go through the back-story again. But please let me know if there are questions I can answer or details you need to know.

Recovering after WS second affair

For a while it seems things will go well. We will enjoy lots of UA, and meeting each other�s EN�s. But what I have noticed is that DH still has to deal with being triggered by mental images of what happened in my affairs. It usually strikes during an intimate moment and has particularly damaging effects. I can tell when his mental state is starting to take a turn for the worse and I struggle with how I can help. I don�t want to ignore what I know is bothering him, but if I bring it up, the way I understand it, that is talking about the affair and should be avoided.

So far I haven�t been doing a good job. When I can sense his mental state turning for the worse, I don�t say very much. I am not cold or hateful. I just don�t have any idea what I can say. How can I say something to let him know I am sorry for what he�s going through without bringing up the affair?

But I think the real problem might be the fact that he is still having to deal with this trigger at all. I�d like guidance on how to address it when it comes up, but ultimately I�d like to know what I can do so this doesn�t happen to him at all. I feel like there must be something I�m doing wrong if he�s still on the emotional roller coaster like this. This is exhausting for him, and it�s killing any chance we have of recovery. I want to make him consistently happy.

Here�s what we�ve done so far:

Put EP�s into place:
No former boyfriends/partners as friends in any capacity.
No private communications with someone of the OS. FB, email, text, etc. Any required communication should be brought to the attention of the spouse.
No sharing of marital issues, dissatisfaction, etc with someone of OS.
No sharing of marital issues, dissatisfaction, etc with same sex friends that you have not or would not discuss with spouse.
No late nights out with girl friends/guy friends that the other spouse has not met and approved of.
No alcohol consumption unless spouse is present. (For myself only.)
All account info. /passwords are shared with spouse. No creation of other new accounts without spouse�s knowledge.
Each of us will return calls, texts, or emails ASAP. If we�re going to be out of touch for a while, we make it known in advance.
We discuss EN�s once a week using EN questionnaire as a guide.
We act as partners in family/domestic responsibilities.
DH come to my workplace _____ times per month and we have lunch or spend time together.

The NC letter was sent. Though at the time I had not yet found MB and I did not have DH read and approve it before I sent it. So, I wish I could have a do-over on that one but I don�t think that�s advised. I can assure you NC has been maintained. POSOM is blocked from FB, email, and phone.
I admit that I was not proactive in deleting �friends� that encouraged my affair. It took DH pointing it out to me before I realized it needed to be done. After he pointed it out, I mentally did a facepalm. Duh! Of course they�ve got to go! DH has told me he still has resentment over the fact that he had to point it out to me before I corrected it. I regret that and wish I�d realized it and addressed it before he had to point it out. After he did I deleted them off FB, my phone, and email. I also sent both of them a letter explaining how what they encouraged me to do was wrong and devastating to my spouse. And because of that, we could never be friends. Never heard back from either of them. Perfectly fine by me. They and POSOM 1 and 2 are dead to me. If there�s one thing I�ve learned, it�s to choose with extreme caution who you surround yourself with on a daily basis.

Another thing I thought about was exposure. We have exposed to both of our families and the kids. We did not expose to POSOM 1 or 2�s workplaces because both times we were in the middle of a move and I needed to find a job. Now that I have a job, should I or DH send an exposure letter to POSOM 1 and 2�s employer? One of the things that bothers DH is that he feels like his life has been ruined while POSOM 1 and 2 get off the hook with no consequences. Should they be exposed at their workplaces? If so, who should write and send the letter? I would be happy to do it, but I don�t know if exposure to the employer is supposed to be carried out by the BS?

I can send a letter of exposure to POSOM 2�s workplace. But I don�t know where POSOM1 works right now. I do know that the person who was my boss at the time of the affair has since retired, but I am still able to contact her if I need to expose the first affair to her.
DH has told me several times he believes I regret what I did, but that I have no remorse. The way I understand remorse, is that it means to repent and turn away from your sins. Repent means to apologize. I have written letters of apology to DH, our children, DH�s mother, and DH�s father. I have also turned away from my sins. I have cut POSOM 1 and 2 out of my life, along with the people who encouraged the affair. I have turned my back on my past behavior. I have given up all IB and follow the POJA. I have turned away from my past behaviors toward other men. I had extremely poor boundaries. Those are now gone and replaced by very strict physical and emotional boundaries.

No other men are allowed to touch me. Ever. Not a pat on the shoulder. Nothing. Only other women are allowed to touch me, unless it is a medical emergency. I purposely selected a female family doctor, and female physical therapist.

No intimate conversation with other men. Of any sort. Not even jokingly. We talk about work-related issues. If we talk about our families I always bring up my DH. Everything is �we�, not �I�. If people make jokes with a sexual undertone, I don�t respond. If I can, I leave the room and I tell my DH about it that day.

Okay. I think that�s enough for now. Please let me know what you see that I can be doing or improving. Thank you for taking the time to read and respond. And thank you to everyone who has been working with my DH and giving him advice and encouragement. I am very grateful to you for the kindness and caring you have shown to him.

Hi ydnccord, welcome to Marriage Builders. It sounds like you are doing a great job making amends. There are a couple of things I would like to discuss, but other than that, I think you are doing everything you can. I would not recommend any more exposures. Workplace exposures are meant for workplace affairs and I don't think you need to do any more exposures.

A couple of red flags I see above are opposite sex friends and having late nights out. I would eliminate ALL OS friends because that is how affairs start. Just cut them out of your life. Nor would I be going out without your husband. Creating an integrated lifestyle is critical right now.

How many hours of undivided attention are you getting every week? Are you going out on dates? Are you focusing on the top 4 intimate emotional needs of affection, conversation, rec companionship and sexual fulfillment?

The more integrated and romantic your relationship becomes, the sooner he will forget about the tragedy of the past. When he is happy in the present his mind won't tend to go to the past.

Good points, ML. We don't have any OS friendships. I guess we can just delete the part that says "Any required communication should be brought to the attention of the spouse." Really, there is no required OS communication in our lives with the exception of people we must communicate with at work. There is no reason for someone from my work or his work to contact us via FB, email, or text.

As far as late nights out with friends, I can say there haven't been any. When ever we've gone out, it is always with each other. But I like the idea of not going out at all without your spouse. Just makes good sense.

As far as UA, I started back to work recently, and for a while it was going okay. I would get home between 4:30 and 6:30 and we'd have dinner and spend the evening together. It was great. I'd guess we were getting roughly 15-20 hours during the week plus more on the weekends. We would go on dates during the weekend. But perhaps it wasn't enough? I think maybe DH feels like he is sacrificing to make our M work, and feels like I haven't needed to sacrifice anything. I have read Dr. Harley's work and listen to the program regularly. I understand the concept of sacrifice does not work in a marriage. But still, I think this is how it feels to him. Like he's the one sacrificing and doing all the work. I don't want it to feel that way to him. I want to work together to make our relationship better. When I tell him this, he says "Well, it's convenient you feel that way now." I understand he still has a massive amount of resentment. I have read over and over again about the concept of just compensation. But from what I see I am guessing he feels like he is not getting just compensation. I don't understand. What am I missing?

I asked him last night if I have been meeting his EN's and he said no. His top EN's are SF, O/H, Affection, Physical Attractiveness, and Admiration.) He said I can't meet them. He said I can't meet his #1 need of SF because that is something I gave away, and when he looks at me all he sees is someone who is ugly, who hurt him. He said he no longer finds me attractive. He said he does not want to be around me, so I can't meet the IC or affection needs. He said I can't meet his need for admiration because I destroyed that by disrespecting him in engaging in A's. He said he hates me right now, for what I did to him. So, in trying to meet his EN's, I feel like I am trying to make deposits in a love bank that is closed. It's impossible for me to meet his needs when he says he hates me and can't stand to be around me.

It is not "sacrifice" to create a happy, romantic marriage. It is a GAIN. What does he feel you could do better?

I would focus all of your attention on getting your UA time. Schedule this out in 2-4 hour blocks during the week and the weekend, making most of your time out on dates. [versus at home time, which is very ineffective with couples in crisis] Sit down with him once a week and schedule out your time using this worksheet. worksheet

I asked him today "What went wrong?" Meaning, I thought recovery was going well, what do you feel went wrong? His answer was "Um. Let me think about it for a minute. Oh yeah. You had POSOM2 between your legs. Unless you can figure out how to undo that, I'm not interested."

He said he planned on moving his things into the basement and living there. He also said something about working out an arrangement so he could "have a little fun" while he was living here and wouldn't have to take care of his own SF needs for the next few years. Those aren't the exact words, but I think you get the idea.

I told him I didn't want to see that happen. That I want to continue to follow the POJA and work the recovery program. I asked if he'd consider going out and doing something together this evening. He simply said no.

Thanks for the worksheet. I feel like I can't even get to a place where I can use it, if he is refusing to spend any time with me. I will continue to follow POJA and not knowingly engage in any LB's. I will continue to ask him to join me in spending time together. That's all I can think of to do for now. Do you have any other ideas for how to help him? Thanks.

ydn, you are well within your rights to tell him you won't put up with this. This would be horrible to you, and no matter what you have done you do not deserve to go through this kind of abuse. Revenge affairs are just as painful as initial affairs, and abuse does not justify abuse.

Please disabuse him now of the notion that he can live like this for a few months while the divorce is pending. What a horrible thing to have going on under your roof with your kids living there!

Please have a listen to this radio broadcast from Dr. Harley:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=05141
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=05142
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=05143

I am very concerned that we are not hearing for you. Please continue to post so that we can help in your healing, particularly for the sake of your children.

From what I can see, the main problem is not the trigger, but his reaction to it. Him being triggered should not be an excuse for him to utter abusive statements like this:


You can certainly talk with Dr. Harley about what can be done about triggers like this, but the most important principle should be that he should not be handing out abuse when he feels triggered.

Nothing you do can fix this for him - he will need to decide for himself to stop being abusive.

Here is what Dr. Harley posted to my wife:


http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2495463#Post2495463

Markos -

Thanks for your reply. I did email Joyce early this morning and I called in to the show this afternoon. Dr. Harley mentioned several things..

First, the betrayed spouse has every right to seek divorce or separation. That is their ethical right after infidelity. He asked if I thought I could be in 100% support if DH decides to go the route of divorce. I think that I can. I think that would be the least I could do. It's not what I want. It's not what I think would be the best outcome, but that is absolutely his right to decide and I fully respect that.

Secondly, he suggested that DH might try a different AD to help with the mind images that keep torturing him. He also suggested counseling for depression. He said that DH was most likely depressed and his ability to make decisions is affected right now.

I sent him a text this evening and told him that I'd called in to the radio show and asked him if he'd be willing to listen. I have heard from him since then but he did not say if he would be willing to listen to today's show. He did say that he has lost faith in the MB way of recovery, particularly because of how resentment is handled. That is specifically what I called in to discuss.

As far as the comments he made earlier, he really is staying in the basement right now. He says he needs to be separated as much from me as is possible. He does say he plans to pursue divorce after the New Year, and I believe that. But as far as the comment about having "a little fun" while still living here, I don't think he would actually do that.

The reason he said that to me was because of something I emailed to him when I was in the fog of the affair and had my head up my @#$. In my fogged out state, I actually suggested we could live as roommates for the next few years until the kids were done with school. I think the reason he said what he did was because he wanted me to see how incredibly stupid and painful that was for him to hear. Not defending it. Just adding some clarification.

After speaking with the Harleys today I think my plan remains mostly the same.

1. Support his decision.
2. Do not engage in love busters.

I will ask him if he'd be willing to listen to today's broadcast, talk with the Harleys, and perhaps try a new AD.
Even if he decides to go the route of divorce, I think Dr. Harley's advice of finding a different AD and working with a counselor would be helpful for him.

I will definitely listen to the broadcasts you posted. Thank you.

If he does go through with it, expose him to all your friends and family.

Don't assume that he won't. Be on the lookout for any kind of activity on his part. Betrayed spouses are VERY vulnerable to having an affair of their own. His statement is not only cruel, but it makes me believe he doesn't have strong boundaries himself. A man with strong boundaries doesn't make such threats, for ANY reason.

And, even if he never follows through, he is abusing you. Do not tolerate him saying anything like this again. Nobody deserves to be treated that way.

I do!

I think his contempt for himself for having "put up" with recovery is shining through loudly and clearly. He will try to reclaim his manhood (which he never lost, but he can't see that) by showing himself that he's still got it.

He sounds very depressed to me, and I hope that he does not self-destruct because of that.

OM were co workers. Normally you expose them. However you left those jobs so why go back and expose?

Because they will target another female co worker. They need to be held accountable.

More important question did you expose the OMWives?

Just because your BH wants a divorce does not mean you have to give up and let him leave.

You can plan A him. Just the way a BH would plan A his WW out of an affair. Showing her the marriage is the best place for her. That you can show your BH that the new and improved you is the best choice for him.

After all the best situation for his kids is for their parents to be in love with each other and keep the family intact.

Will he do the online program with you?

That's not what Dr. Harley advised. I'm relistening to the show right now.

Prisca and SC, you make a good point. I should know by now that anyone is capable of having an affair. And yes, right now he is very vulnerable. Thank you for sharing your insights.

TheRoad -
I thought of that, too. But here is my rationale, and you can let me know what you think about it. Right now I feel like all my effort should go into supporting my DH's decision and showing him what kind of person I can be and the behavior he can expect from me in the future.
If I go back and expose the OM at their workplace, I don't know if it will help our marriage right now. I do fear that it could lead to either one of them trying to contact me or my DH and then we'd have that to deal with.

Neither of the OM's were married.

When I talked with the Harley's yesterday he did not suggest I go into plan A. I'm guessing it is because this is the second affair. I don't know. But to be sure, I'd be willing to do that.

No, ydn, Dr. Harley does not recommend that a wife Plan A an abusive husband. TheRoad is not really giving good MB advice, here.

ydn, I'm very glad to hear you reached out to Dr. Harley. Your husband is posting right now that he does not want to keep saying gross and horrible things to you. Will you let us know if he continues?

I really agree with Dr. Harley's assessment that being this emotional is going to prevent him from future happiness - whether he divorces or not.

I did not know her husband was being abusive.

Yes, I can do that.

We talked last night for a couple of hours. He is struggling with massive resentment, and generally feeling like I get a good deal all around. I get to have the fun of the two affairs, while he gets to suck it up, and meet my EN's to create a better marriage. So essentially, I slept around and now I get to have a great marriage out of it. He said he feels like he doesn't really have a choice in the matter. He says he feels like he knows that if we stay married we could be mostly happy one day and the resentment would eventually fade. However he feels the only way to protect his self-respect is to file for divorce. So, it's like saying we have Choice A: He gets to be eventually happy but it requires him to work through recovery and accept my two affairs, which were an affront to his heart and soul. Or we have choice B: He chooses divorce and while his self-respect remains intact, he may never really be happy. Is that really a choice?

He also says that a huge part of the resentment for him is that I gave away something that was special. Before my affairs, we were each other's only sexual partners. He feels like I got to experience something that, if he chooses to recover, he will forever miss out on. He was not being disrespectful here. He was being radically honest with me and sharing the thoughts that were going through his mind. I guess what I am not able to make him understand is how I don't feel like I gained anything from the affairs. If I could go back and erase both of them I would. He feels if he lives the rest of his life having been faithful to one person, he may regret it. I have to live my life knowing I chose to throw away something precious and I can never, ever take it back. My concern is that if he sees recovery as him accepting the affairs and living a mostly happy life with regret and resentment under the surface, our marriage will never recover and he will be miserable.

I have more to add, but unfortunately have to head out to work... He said the conversation didn't go like he wanted it to. He said he was on the fence and was hoping we could discuss how we could continue to meet each other's EN's while he was trying to make up his mind about what to do. He had hoped we might snuggle for a little. He did say when he brought up me giving away the uniqueness of our relationship, he wanted me to apologize and show remorse for that. But I did not. I think I failed with how I responded to that. I can give more details as to how I did respond, but for now I have to cut it short so I can get out the door on time. I'll continue posting when I get the chance later. Thanks for reading.

Okay. I have a couple of minutes. When he brought up me having given away our unique and special sexual relationship, he wanted my response to be a heartfelt apology. I think I failed in that regard. When he brought it up, in my mind I started to think about our earlier years if marriage.

At first in our relationship I was a little jealous and insecure. I knew he looked at porn from time to time and he didn't attempt to hide it or lie to me about it. It bothered me pretty badly. I simply asked him not to let me know about it. I didn't feel I had the right to ask him to stop. I didn't want to tell him what to do. I felt he regretted marrying so early and not having the chance to have other sexual experiences. He says at the time this was probably true. He did regret it. Partly because our sex life at the time was terrible. I had some health problems and just generally didn't enjoy sex. It wasn't fulfilling for either of us. I told him I didn't realiZe he saw our unique relationship as special. He said he changed and started to see it that way a couple of years ago, even after the first affair. And now this was something I'd given away and could not get back.

He felt that I should have simply apologized at that point and not brought up the past. He felt I was trying to leverage. Honestly, I wasn't trying to leverage. But I see his point and I wish I just would have given him a heartfelt "I'm so sorry." Instead of saying what I did.