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MSM, we don't need that amount of detail to understand your situation. Very few people have the time to read such a long, superfluous post. You would get a lot more help if you summarized your story to 3 very short paragraphs. We don't need your backstory.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Would your W be willing to post on this forum for advice?
Does she know that you are posting here?
LTL She doesn't know yet. We spoke to night and her main request is that I edify her more. I totally get this and I want to make sure I edify her as she has needs. The tough part is when she is deliberately doing things that are harmful to the marriage it makes it difficult to be edifying during those times... BUT I MUST FIND A WAY to do that regardless. I doubt she would post as she is more of a surface type of person... meaning she doesn't like to talk intimately much or deeply about things... one of those just wanna have laughing good fun time... avoids conflict or difficult discussions. So I can't see her willing to post... but maybe she would be willing.
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How much time alone together do you get each week? Doing what?
What are her complaints about you? We are only getting 1 maybe 2 hours. I want the 15 hours mentioned in the book, but with kids at 4,6,9 I don't see that number of hours possible, but I believe we should be able to do at least half. Our counselor has requested we take 1 hour after kids in bed for time with just the two of us... then if we still have time take the remaining time before bed to take care of chores together. Unfortunately my wife goes to a book almost every night instead. Only once a week this request might take place. It makes me feel like she is resistant to growing and spending time together. What are her complaints about me? I'll tell you what she has shared as I have asked many times what does she need and what can I do. - If we have a discussion if she wants to stop it she wants it stopped. This is difficult as she sometimes stops it within 3 minutes and nothing negative has been said and nothing hateful and very calm. She doesn't like conflict so she stops it. Now I usually have tried to continue it, but I have altered this and have succeeded about 50% of the time to stop immediately, about 40% of the time stop it shortly after and well... I have failed a few times. It is difficult to try and work through an issue only to get unwillingness. - She said she wants to be edified. I want to do this and to be honest am struggling with how I can edify with all of the difficulties and things that take place. - If she has done something wrong and apologizes she wants it to be dropped immediately. If she is truly apologizing and it really is from the heart it is much easier to except and move on pretty quickly, but if it is an apology with a "but" and blame the other person added to it makes it difficult to easily except as sincere. - She doesn't like to hear about a past issue over again. I agree... but if that same pattern still exists it is hard to not reference the pattern as a whole. But I sincerely don't want to bring up past things... especially if there was an apology and we resolved it. Actually if it is a resolved situation I am not sure I have brought it back up. Only the pattern based things does it come up again. - She wants my tone to be different. Some how my tone comes across wrong. I try my best to share truthfully and try to articulate, but I must come across sounding judgmental or angry or something. I am actively and continually looking at this. I am meeting with our Pastor and his Wife semi weekly to improve the way I respond and react to things. - When I am hurt I get very quiet. Some may call it a silent treatment or something of that nature. And to be honest... it probably is something like that. I am hurt... I am angry... and I struggle to just act like nothing just happened when something hurtful or negative may have just happened. There are probably more... but I have to think a little more on what they are. Oh... too detailed! I think that might bring up a chuckle from a couple of you here.  There are no boundary issues on my side... I help with all the housework... I help with the kids in a big way... I say yes to 99% of her requests... regardless to what it is. I really try to be a good husband... but obviously I am failing in certain respects and need to strengthen those ares.
Last edited by MySacredMarriage; 05/28/14 08:57 PM.
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MSM, we don't need that amount of detail to understand your situation. Very few people have the time to read such a long, superfluous post. You would get a lot more help if you summarized your story to 3 very short paragraphs. We don't need your backstory. I will try to go back and shorten it. Oops... it won't let me go back to them to edit... guess they post is too old now. Sorry.
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Welcome to MB!
Does your wife still have opposite sex friendships? She had developed 2 close relationships that came to a head in March 2013. I explain more in coming posts. Is she still in contact with these men? Prisca, The main consultant guy moved on to a new project. I know there have been a few emails back and forth (I have not seen them), but she said they were more professional in nature and not personal like the earlier ones. The secondary guy helps out on project remotely at times and she has to communicate with him at times... she says that she has kept it professional. The timing of the relationships subsiding timed with them leaving and going back to their remote offices. So who knows what would have happened if they continued coming into town every week. She says there is no emailing back and forth. I could ask her to show me her email, but I am trying to provide trust as she has done somethings (agreement and adjustments in relationships) that deserve some rebuilding of trust.
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Your wife has had very poor boundaries and at least one emotional affair. Was it ever exposed? Is she still in contact? Yes... I believe she has very poor boundaries. She will argue that we get the same end result, but we have a different path. My path is to have a hedge of protection by using boundaries... my wife will say she doesn't need a boundary... if they cross the line she will say something. But her line is blatant sexual advance. And in general I do believe if someone becomes blatantly sexual she will say something... but it is all those gray areas of teasing, flirtiness, and overall closeness that I find risky... and if our marriage is not doing well like ours then the risk becomes much greater not have some more protective boundaries. In regards to was it ever exposed. She absolutely denies and emotional affair. She said she had not lust or sexual desires at all. Now I have researched many sites on what an emotional affair is and there are those that say it must involve lust and then there are those that say it does not have to involve lust. I believe the second type happened, but she still denies it to this day and says she did nothing wrong, but lie to me. This is hard to get past for me. But I don't really have a choice... I can let this eat at me forever or move past it.
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She absolutely denies and emotional affair. She said she had not lust or sexual desires at all. It doesn't matter what she says. The M.O. of a wayward is to deny deny and deny some more. The emails/texts you shared with us are not just indicative of "poor boundaries" but red flags that she is either in an affair or actively seeking an affair. Is she being transparent? Meaning, do you have access to passwords to her email/FB and also are you able to look at her phone at any time or is there a password lock on it? Do you have access to her phone records?
Last edited by SusieQ; 05/28/14 09:57 PM.
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In regards to was it ever exposed. She absolutely denies and emotional affair. It doesn't matter if she denies it! You don't need her permission to let known what she had done. Her behavior will not change if the affair is never exposed. There will be another one.
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She says there is no emailing back and forth. I could ask her to show me her email, but I am trying to provide trust as she has done somethings (agreement and adjustments in relationships) that deserve some rebuilding of trust. You rebuild trust with transparency. Without transparency, trust is impossible and dangerous. You need access to all her accounts.
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The main consultant guy moved on to a new project. I know there have been a few emails back and forth (I have not seen them), but she said they were more professional in nature and not personal like the earlier ones.
The secondary guy helps out on project remotely at times and she has to communicate with him at times... she says that she has kept it professional. Do not trust her for one minute. Get access to those emails and accounts. All contact with these men must stop. Will she end contact?
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We are only getting 1 maybe 2 hours. I want the 15 hours mentioned in the book, but with kids at 4,6,9 I don't see that number of hours possible, but I believe we should be able to do at least half. Our counselor has requested we take 1 hour after kids in bed for time with just the two of us... then if we still have time take the remaining time before bed to take care of chores together. Unfortunately my wife goes to a book almost every night instead. Only once a week this request might take place. It makes me feel like she is resistant to growing and spending time together. We have 7 kids, ages 9, 8, 7, 7, 5, 4 and 6 weeks. I don't buy that you can't have 15 hours because of the kids. The thing is, only getting half of the 15 hours is not going to be enough. One hour each evening after the kids are in bed is not going to be enough. Wives need at LEAST 15 hours of undivided attention from their husbands in order to be in love. Anything less will not do it.
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How transparent... she doesn't like me asking about things... I don't know if it is how I ask or if it is because she feels untrusted and that in itself puts her off or what... but I do ask and she seems to answer... although irritatedly at times. You realize that your W has a SSL (secret second life), right? Otherwise you would have known about everything that was happening with those male coworkers without needing to find those emails. The fact that your W feels "untrusted" and doesn't like to answer your questions is indicative of the fact that she is still clinging to her SSL. Look: So one of the most common clues of an affair is an unwillingness to let a spouse investigate all aspects of life. If two lives are necessary for an affair, and if a spouse is curious enough, the secret second life is relatively easy to discover. Difficulty in getting a spouse to talk about events of the day can be a sign of trying to hide the second life.
One of the most common smoke-screens used by unfaithful spouses is to express shock that their spouse would be so distrusting as to ask questions about their secret second life. They try to make it seem as if such questions are an affront to their dignity, and a sign of incredible disrespect. They figure that the best defense is a good offense, and so they try to make their spouses feel guilty about asking too many questions. Some of the other language you use in your other posts about "needing to trust" has BIG RED FLAG written all over it....that you are being gaslit by your W. You should be snooping on her vs grilling her and hoping she will be honest with you about her day to day interactions with these men.
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She says there is no emailing back and forth. I could ask her to show me her email, but I am trying to provide trust as she has done somethings (agreement and adjustments in relationships) that deserve some rebuilding of trust. My sister and BIL check each other's phones and FB accounts out all the time. They don't even use words like 'trust' with each other. They have never had any issue of infidelity in their marriage. They have nothing to hide so it doesn't bother either of them. People who are hiding things are the ones who want their spouses to "trust" them and not check up on them. This is a very theme we see over and over and over again on these forums. A spouse who is complaining about needing to be trusted is the one who needs to be checked up on the most. You are using the language of a person who has been gaslit. Big time.
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FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
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TRUST is a feeling, a reflex, that you get when your spouse is being open and honest. It's not something you do. It's not an uncaring 'do what you want in secret' policy. That would involve pretending you have no feelings at all! Most women would view such a disinterested attitude as most uncaring and unprotective.
Not your wife though. An uncaring attitude from you gives her free reign to explore more passionate and falsely purported caring from other men. She's already proven herself untrustworthy with one affair. Which she continues to lie about!
I cannot understand why you are getting into debates with her which only force her to repeat lies and keeps her stuck in dishonesty. Just snoop. You can then address the dishonesty based on what you find.
Your counsellor is also a buffoon. One hour after the kids are in bed? Who falls in love like that!?
It's pretty obvious you've been bullied into a sick version of trust by a wife who is addicted to admiration. Your counsellor joined in the bullying, because like most clueless people they just follow the lead of the strongest personality in the room.
That's why you came on here rambling and over - explaining. You've been bullied into thinking that caring about your wife is unnatural and that your feelings are abnormal.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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] None of us is perfect. We all have predispositions that if left unchecked can cause us to hurt others, especially our spouse.
In marriage, this destructive predisposition is manifest in a variety of habits that I call Love Busters. But among those destructive habits, there are few as damaging as our tendency to be unfaithful. Yet, I estimate that over 60% of all marriages experience infidelity, one of the most painful experiences a betrayed spouse can have in life.
So snooping is reasonable, especially when there has been evidence of a budding romantic relationship outside of marriage. If Joyce were to check up on me without my knowing about it, it would probably be based on certain facts that would have aroused her curiosity. But knowing now what I know about the devastating effects of unfaithfulness, I'd encourage, not discourage, her -- unless I was really up to something I didn't want her to know about.
What are some of the red flags that would lead a spouse to snoop? The biggest and brightest of them all is for you to claim a right to privacy. If you were to refuse to give your spouse your passwords to your computer, social networks, or cell phone records, or to what you do with your time away from each other, that would trigger almost anyone's curiosity. What's my spouse trying to hide?
There are other red flags. One of them is having a close friend of the opposite sex because that's how most affairs develop. An opposite-sex friend at work, someone you are with recreationally, or someone you simply enjoy talking to about almost anything is the person to whom you are most likely to become emotionally attached. Do you have any close friends of the opposite sex outside of your marriage?
Other red flags include unexplained absences, where it's difficult to know where a spouse was for a period of time, excessive consumption of alcohol, and a marriage that has lost its spark. These are but a few of the conditions that inspire snooping.
So if your spouse has been snooping on you, and you haven't been having an affair, don't discourage the snooping. Instead, address the red flags. What have you been doing that makes your spouse worry about an affair?
Give your spouse all of your passwords, provide your spouse with your schedule, be available by cell phone throughout the day, and be willing to give a full account of everything you do and everywhere you go. Don't tolerate secrecy in your marriage.
Don't have close friends of the opposite sex. Your spouse should be your best and closest friend. And be sure that your spouse enthusiastically approves of the friends you do have. Also Those who have had affairs almost always want to be trusted. They usually don't like to be held accountable by making their lives transparent. But it is transparency that makes them trustworthy. Without it, trust is never regained.
As you've read in some of my posted Q&A columns, I believe that we can trust our spouse to avoid an affair under some conditions, and cannot trust them under other conditions. Of course, those conditions vary from person to person, but one condition that makes most people very vulnerable to an affair is the feeling of romantic love for someone other than their spouse. And unless a person understands how romantic love is created, they are usually blind-sided when they experience it.
Your wife's relationship with her co-worker probably began with ordinary conversation about work-related issues that developed into intimate conversation when they talked about their personal problems. It was probably very innocent at first, because neither understood that they were making massive deposits into each other's Love Banks. But before long, those deposits triggered intense feelings of love that they communicated to each other, and the rest is history.
What happened to your wife, happens thousands of times every day to husbands and wives who feel they should be able to have friends of the opposite sex. They don't see the danger of falling in love when their intimate emotional needs are met outside of marriage. They usually understand that sex is off limits. But they rarely see intimate conversation (communication of emotional reactions and personal problems) as the first step to an affair. If enough Love Bank deposits are made to trigger romantic love, then our instincts to meet the intimate emotional needs of affection and sexual fulfillment become almost irresistible. Your wife has said that her affair was just emotional, but you can be sure that if you had not discovered it and she had not put an end to it, it would have become sexual as well. Many unfaithful spouses have demanded that the betrayed spouse trust them. They argue that without that trust their marriage cannot thrive. They don't use that argument to build their marriage, but rather to avoid doing anything to regain trust. They don't follow the Policy of Joint Agreement, asking how their spouse would feel about their decisions but instead insist that the spouse trust their judgment. They don't tell their spouse what they are doing in secret, but they want the spouse to believe that it is not anything harmful to the marriage. Demanding trust is simply a tactic to get away with further thoughtlessness and dishonesty.
Part of this problem is that spouses are often led to believe that trust is something you are required to do when you are married. You have to trust your spouse. But trust is not a requirement for marriage; it's a reaction to experience. It grows as each spouse shows himself or herself to be trustworthy. .
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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I'm going to repeat three key parts of Dr Harley's words for you: Those who have had affairs almost always want to be trusted. They usually don't like to be held accountable by making their lives transparent. But it is transparency that makes them trustworthy. Without it, trust is never regained. Demanding trust is simply a tactic to get away with further thoughtlessness and dishonesty. . Part of this problem is that spouses are often led to believe that trust is something you are required to do when you are married. You have to trust your spouse. But trust is not a requirement for marriage; it's a reaction to experience. It grows as each spouse shows himself or herself to be trustworthy. .
Last edited by indiegirl; 05/29/14 04:25 AM.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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The main consultant guy moved on to a new project. I know there have been a few emails back and forth (I have not seen them), but she said they were more professional in nature and not personal like the earlier ones.
The secondary guy helps out on project remotely at times and she has to communicate with him at times... she says that she has kept it professional. Do not trust her for one minute. Get access to those emails and accounts. All contact with these men must stop. Will she end contact? I have access to all accounts other than her work email. She showed me the work emails back in 2013, but the last time I went to check she was very upset because she works for a hospital with HIPPA rules... meaning if she allows someone to see the emails that could have medical information in them she could lose her job. Here is why she was upset... The last time I looked at them in 2013 I forwarded copies of them to myself as proof of a pattern and she was upset (NOT about me seeing them), but about me forwarding them out as some did have medical info and she could get fired if they audited and saw that. Which is why I told her that I would not do it that way again, but if I wanted to see it then I would expect her to show it to me. At the time she did indicated she would not due to HIPPA rules. This was also during a heated time so if I really pushed it she may be willing to pull them up now. Now don't forget... she allowed me to see the emails the first time without issue and if there had been anything (she believed) was wrong she would have probably hid it. Nothing in the emails would indicate physical affair and to be honest not directly emotional... just a part of a pattern of a friendship that was building between my wife and 2 other men (with 1 more than the other). I obviously think this to be inappropriate in my marriage. The hospital also purges email every 3 months... I am sure it is stored somewhere, but she doesn't have access to it after 3 months. I know the general reaction by most is to say she at the minimum had an emotional affair. My wife is not generally wired that way... but is definitely more wired to just be friendly with everyone... but does tend to lean to men. Which leads to the boundary issues for me. I am not a naive person... I have a difficult time trusting as it is... so I never just assume things... I look at the whole set of the data and the person. These guys are no longer in town... they work 6 states away. I can't say they will never be back down for a future project, but for now they are not coming to town. I have checked her personal phone / personal email and there are no phone calls or emails or texts to them... but I know you can delete those as well. The only thing I can't check is her work stuff and she has to be willing to let me see it. Again I think she would now if I pushed for it. I know everyone will immediately say she is hiding something. My un-trusting nature immediately feels this way as well. Maybe I'll bring it up with counselor today... but he is also encouraging trust. He feels there definitely was a friendship between my wife and the two men, but he has not seen any direct evidence there was a physical affair and he doesn't classify anything as an emotional affair... he sees the definition as one dealing with physical desire and not just friendship. I believe he saw it as a risky relationship with weak boundaries, but he didn't believe it to be an affair. He has the benefit of also talking with her one on one... and maybe he would not tell me what she has said due to patient / doctor relationship, but I would not imagine he would lie and indicate he does not believe an affair (emotional by his definition or otherwise) took place.
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Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
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