Yes... she definitely had this last year. Does she still have a secret second life... there is no way for me to ever know her interactions with opposite sex without me witnessing it or there be physical proof... but at this point it is less likely a SSL is still going on. I do sense she still is more friendly with opposite sex in general than I care for (banter or teasing), but I don't sense something secretly going on at this point.

Can you afford a PI?

I believe in professional confidentiality too - but I would trust my spouse so far that he would not do anything to lose me my job!! Even Dr H's wife has full access to his counselling dealings. She runs his email!

She knows you aren't going to be indiscreet and lose her her job. She knows she can trust your discretion. She knows you wouldn't do anything but scan work stuff anyway.

It's an excuse and the fact that you are allowed access to everything but this one thing IS a major alarm bell to me. Why is it such a hot topic? It shouldn't bother her a bit.



I'm sorry but your counsellor is a moron with no clue whatsoever. He's probably heard that trust is good from a Hollywood movie but has no concept that trust is what SHE should be demonstrating, not something you should be giving away.

We see a lot of this clueless councillor stuff and Dr H's entire program and this forum was in part set up to help the victims of the brigade of clueless counsellors.

I mean an hour together, while tired, after the children's bedtime, not doing anything actually fun, is his idea of romance. It says it all doesn't it?

Has anyone in history ever fell in love like that?

Also anyone with any common sense can see your wife is not trustworthy and that you would be a fool to trust her.

I would not take the advice of someone who does not display common sense.

In regards to counselor... he is not saying 1 hour a night is the key to love... He is wanting us to at LEAST try and do that as a compromise. My wife does have sleep issues, she is on anti-depressant and meds do cause sleep problems (at times). So his 1 hour a night was a starting point. He has encouraged us to not be as busy with kids (soccer, swimming, and so on) to make more time. He has used Marriage Builders documentation (emotional needs) and (His needs Her Needs) and used some of what I have read here. Part of the issue has been the over all struggle in our marriage from both sides that I believe has led to resistance.

So right now the kids are in bed between 8 and 9 and my wife is almost always asleep at the latest by 10:00PM and in the past was normally around 9:30PM. Now lately she has been spending this time to read (I believe is her escape) and I don't want to deny her some (escape) time as I need that as well... but I think more time together will do us much better than reading 6 nights of the week and giving only 1 night of time that we are getting at the moment.

<<addicted to admiration>>
You may be correct her in regards to her desire for admiration. But he doesn't want to be admired... that is a natural desire, but I know it can be unhealthy and clearly effect a marriage.

My counselor has not said to blindly trust or to blindly let things happen. He is PUSHING for us to have positive love bank deposits, try to save tough discussions for counseling room, and build the feeling of love. He wants us to have as much harmony and peace and do life together during the week and we can have discussions during our appointment so it doesn't get out of hand as it has in the past.

Again in regards to trust... he does believe it takes time for that to build and experience and consistency. So he wants me to watch and as she builds the trust and as experience shows she is abiding by agreements and putting up better boundaries that I provide more trust or another way of saying it is have more confidence my wife is protecting our marriage.

Everyone needs to understand that although I see what everyone is saying and I see how things look and that I believe the relationships were inappropriate at the minimum ... but don't discount that I have hurt her with my bitterness and resentment way before the friendships with these 2 guys took place. I am not saying I excuse any of the behavior at all... I am saying that I am a part of the equation of her not feeling loved. Again not an excuse for her actions.

No... and to be honest the only time my wife is not where I can see her is at work. Outside of work we are either all together with kids or I am with kids at one sporting event and she is with other at another sporting event where I have friends at who would share with me something if they saw her being inappropriate.

This doesn't reassure me in the slightest about your counsellor. It's pretty clear his knowledge of MB is incredibly amateurish. He's using materials he doesn't understand.

You've seen how your counsellor's version of trust is a complete u-turn from Dr H's position. Dr H has been lied to by so many waywards who pretended to be honest that he never encourages a fearful spouse have that kind of trust for people with poor boundaries. Only a fool would.

Also, no one with knowledge of MB would even entertain such a 'compromise'. A minimum of 15 FUN hours a week ON DATES is what is required for ordinary, fairly happy couples. Recovery from an affair is more like 20-25 hours and it is UA time which is never to take place in the house - ever!

Dr H wouldn't take any couples who refused to do this, because 'a compromise' would not work. He'd tell them to save their money for a babysitter or a nice dinner because that would be more effective.

All your time together is spent in-house on dull, inadequate time. Or being bullied in counselling. On a foundation of distrust which no one is solving - you are not snooping, she is not being transparent.
Also he's probably counselling you in the same room instead of separately causing disagreements.

He should wear a mask when he takes your money out of shame.

That is madness. Why don't you simply change your schedule?

Also it isn't your friends responsibility to protect your marraige and spend time with your wife!

I'm getting the impression that you schedule eveything ELSE before you prioritise each other. Then whatever scraps are left over are what you give each other.

Take a look

Beware of Bad Counselors [/quote]

Your counsellor is trying to bully you into being OK with a situation that would make anyone insecure and very worried.

He brushes off her attempts to seek the affirmation of other men as nothing and he counsels trust. Even if it WERE harmless (which it's absoultely not) - he isn't listening to how hurt this makes you.



I've never met a wayward who doesn't adore the idea of counselling. In their eyes they can explore all the faults of the BS who 'made them' have an affair. They can also bully them into a very twisted idea of what trust is supposed to be.

All too often they achieve their goals because either the counsellor is clueless about their aims or the counsellors have learned it is a cash cow. Unfixable marriages are lucrative.

Can your counsellor refer you to a truly recovered marrriage he is responsible for? What is his success rate?

Here we see many of Dr H's recovered marriages daily. Markos and Prisca are one!

I totally agree in regards to email.
I totally agree in regards to time together and needing "proper time" to build love.

I however am obviously not giving enough detail about what my counselor is sharing or not clearly stating it.

He is not saying and never said to blindly trust.
He makes it clear it has to be earned... and I am to watch and see what she changes and how she will change.
He has stated she must earn it... NOT me freely giving.
He has stated that I have clear reasons to not trust and that she has done some serious damage (but so have I).
He has stated that we must start building the love banks.
He has stated we must minimize the love bank withdrawals and do our best to stop a tough conversation and use the counseling venue to help work through some of those issues.
He did help facilitate the Boundary Agreement we have in place. Yes I wish she totally agreed with it and believed as I do, but for now I have to start with the fact that she is following it fairly well.
He has clearly stated he sees resistance in both of us to work on areas we need to... there is most definitely some bitterness that both of us are fighting from past hurts. Getting past this bitterness is tough right now. For BOTH of us.

He has also clearly stated that she has broken trust in major ways multiple times. No doubts about it. He said no one gets a pass... if there is an issue we deal with it... we don't just act like it didn't happen.

I have trust issues anyway due to past hurts from my broken home as a child and past dating relationships before marriage... so we need to make sure that overtime when trust has been earned that I do allow that trust to be earned and not go the opposite way and say nothing you can do will ever earn trust.

The counselor worked diligently to help build an agreement where she "out of deference to me" adjust her behaviors with opposite sex even though she may not fully agree that some things we don't do are wrong.

If I understand my wife correctly she believes it is not wrong to have opposite sex friendships. Now I also believe we can have an opposite sex friends, but obviously my boundaries are very focused so usually any women I consider a friend is also my wife's friend and I don't do things alone with her or just call her to talk or go to lunch or whatever. I share about any interactions I have so my wife is aware and the few times a year my work does a coed outing (project milestone celebration, training, business lunch) or whatever I tell my wife before or immediately after. I am an open book basically. I even shared with her how I felt I was getting to close to one of our mutual female friends a long while back during one of our earlier struggles in marriage and I adjusted it to be appropriate.

I think part of the rub is my wife feels like I am saying having lunch with a OS friend is WRONG where as I am not saying it is morally WRONG... I am saying it is risky and for ME... it is a boundary violation that hurts me and because I am her husband and it does hurt me that I don't want it to continue and at that point I find it wrong if she does continue. And overall I found things wrong as we agreed before and during marriage of how we would handle relationships with OS, but she didn't follow that last year.

I am not saying that a teasing statement or light banter is morally WRONG... but I am saying it can be risky and lead on to other things if unchecked.

That is why I simply choose to keep pretty strong boundaries.

My wife was raised in an area where everyone was just very friendly with everyone else... very outgoing... very friendly... but can be without impure thoughts or any inappropriate desires.

So I have to try and realize that it is probably more difficult for her to try and tone back friendliness with opposite sex as it is for me to tone back being overly detailed.

I know I can go back to the first post and shrink it to 3 paragraphs... but I am wired to provide detail and have to really work to cut out detail. My wife is wired to be more friendly and outgoing and doesn't see her friendliness as being inappropriate... especially if she doesn't have any desire or impure thoughts in her mind... just being an outgoing, bubbly friendly person.

I don't want her to change her personality... I want her to change her behavior with opposite sex so that she can still be a friendly person, but have a hedge of protection that doesn't encourage inappropriate behavior from another man or lead him to think something is more there than there is.

I can be the same way as my wife and was the same way to a certain extent as a single man... meaning I could flirt with the best of them... but when I became married I chose to change that way of acting... change my behavior... not my personality... my wife will have to choose it as well... but I know it will be harder for her than it was for me. I have never seen her ever be sexual or make sexual comments to other men... I have seen other men make statements before and she gets embarrassed.

It is indeed generally kids stuff and then what is left is us. It does need to change. I personally believe in God First, Wife Second, kids Third and so on.

It is also possible I am not clearly articulating what he is guiding me on. I go to him once a week, my wife goes once a week and then we both go together.

Listen... our counselor is pushing us for more time, more time, more time. He is pushing date night regularly... he is pushing for a lot of things I see on this site.

BUT... both of us have to be following his coaching and guidelines and I can promise you both of us have done things to either sabotage or hinder progression. There is pride, selfishness and so on that are all part of the mix from both of us.

So even if it was Dr H himself... until the individuals both do their parts it can be a slow process. And both of us have struggled.

In regards to trust... are you saying one can NEVER earn trust? Yes... I believe I have earned TRUST, but I also have no problem with anyone validating that trust. But I do believe I earn it and continue to earn it. So I do believe my wife can come to earn it and earn it on an ongoing basis.

Also out of what I have shared and what I know as fact about my wife's relationship (not speculation) what classifies it as an emotional affair to you.

For me it is simply the fact that she built a friendship relationship with another (2 men) in secret and because she knew I wouldn't like it and because she built a closer friendship than she had with me and spent more energy in the relationship with them.

If I were to make the same statement, it would be God first, then my marriage, and then my kids, and so on. Do you see the subtle difference? I am concerned about my marriage, both of us, and not just my wife. I am equally concerned for both my wife's happiness and my own happiness at the same time.

It is important to understand that a healthy marriage involves balancing you own giver and taker, too. Anything less is sacrifice, which then makes a successful marriage unsustainable.

The counselor has NEVER said to be OK with things. However... when a spouse is unwilling to do something or doesn't agree then that spouse must be willing to work with the other spouse. The counselor can't force it, I can't force it, and my wife can't force me.

Do not discount the amount of resentment, bitterness, and anger that has built by both of us before the inappropriate friendships.

I know I have been resistant in certain areas to change because of this and I know my wife has too. Yes... the counselor clearly states I have made the most changes and was the most active. Remember I read His Needs Her Needs the first couple of days he gave it to us. My wife took about 3 months to get to it. She was resistant.

He again does not BULLY me into being ok with anything. He has NEVER said to be ok with anything.

He counsels about earning trust and building trust NOT freely giving it. He does agree in open book policy... he does agree with open communication... I agree with most things he coaches us on... but if there is resistance to doing something by either one of us for whatever reason then it will hinder healing and that is not on him... that is on me or my wife and our willingness. Yes... I have been very willing and my wife has been resistant... but there are times my hurt leads to me being resistant as well.

I don't know his "success rates"... we do know of a handful of marriages from personal friends that have recovered with his help.

You are correct... I normally would have said marriage... I am here at work so I am feverishly typing and throwing out my thoughts in the brief moments I have. I do agree.

There ARE some very few truly MB compatible counsellors. Yours isn't one of them. This is the critical mistake most people make. Most people say 'we are doing some of it' or 'a lot of it'. The plan is a very accurate recipe and you cannot skip even ONE bit or gloss even one stage or cut the amount of UA time without courting disaster. Dr Harley himself uses the words "narrow path" and describes short cuts as "disastrous". Skipping just one thing is like leaving the flour out of a cake.

If you're meeting in your counsellor's office once a week and not agreeing, you're withdrawing love units during that time. You are falling OUT of love in that time. Judging by your description of UA time, you are not building romantic love at all at any other time either. In short, it's not fun when you two are together. So one hour withdrawing love units weekly, no hours depositing them.

With zero hours building love, and no boundaries around other men - this means that pretty much any man she speaks to is a more fun experience than you are. Being out of love is also one of the biggest danger zones for an affair.

There's been no EPs implemented since her A. So another A or a continuation of that one is a given. Your counsellor hasn't even addressed this very serious danger!

You also haven't snooped, so for all you know she had a full blown romantic affair, sexual or otherwise and is still in love with another man. Such a contrast effect would be disastrous for you and you aren't even aware of whether this is the full picture.

It's a disaster and your counsellor is using a pea shooter to take down a lion-sized catalogue of problems.

However snooping would get you the full picture and the true plan can then be implemented. I'd plan to dispense with the counsellor once you have done some snooping. Doing so now would raise her suspicions.




Of course she can! That is our goal here at MB. To achieve a situation where she stops demanding trust for the purposes of secrecy and starts earning it for the purposes of transparency.


You aren't going to get it in debates with her. You are demanding something from her which makes her very uncomfortable and which will put an end to happy fun flirty admiration time.

So just go get it. Snoop for dear life. Then show her that a) you can't be fooled but b) you are going to respond reasonably and c) persist in getting transparency.

Demanding the truth from her over and over is just withdrawing regular lovebank units and achieving nothing. If you snoop, yes it will withdraw some, but you will do it quickly and effectively like a band aid before achieving a platform to rebuild trust on.

His Needs Her Needs is a great book which is wholly inappropriate if there has been even any kind of an affair. Dr H has said on numerous occasions it should not be read by anyone who has been in any type of affair.

The emphasis is on needs, not Extraordinary Precautions. That's what is making you so unhappy - no boundaries.

This is why snooping is so important. You can't resolve the problem with the incorrect diagnosis.

From the sound of it, he'd probably be OK if you had the full picture and I wish he had counselled you to snoop. However even an OK counsellor costs money and I would rather spend the money on an properly up to speed MB coach or simply more babysitters.

I really agree with you here and I find her behaviour very worrying.

I don't believe her version of events at all. If she was going out to have her needs met by men and it never went further than feeling pleasantly friendly, she wouldn't have gotten worried enough to even tell you, much less decide she needs marriage counselling.

She was either in love or highly tempted. This has freaked her out. I believe the contact continues.

Her detached, would-rather-read-a-book attitude is sadly, textbook. Usually women who are not getting needs met ANYWHERE are desperate to work on the marriage and carry out a counsellor's recommendations. They thirst for UA time. It's a worry and a red flag that she is checked out.


I think she haas been very carelessly been playing with fire for a loooong time. Please, please snoop and save her from herself.

Then the crux of the matter is who's definition of affair do we go by? I studied a large number of sites and about 50% would say it was an emotional affair (with or without sexual desire... it didn't matter) and 50% would say it was heading in that path or at the very least there was a friendship built between 2 men and it was a high risk situation heading in the wrong direction

My counselor wouldn't classify it as an affair based on everything he heard and everything he got from my wife when they spoke. But I also don't recall him saying anything about it being good for the marriage. It's been almost 10 months since this all happened so hard to remember exactly how he put it.

And don't forget I have definitely caused hurt from my end before all of this... she feels I am judgmental at times and that I don't edify her. So I believe at times she avoids time as she may want to avoid conflict or any negative feelings. It is something I have always known... she avoids difficult things... which is one reasons she lied about friendships... she knew I would not like it and instead of saying she didn't see a problem with OS friends she hid it to avoid arguing about it. Up until this point we were NOT feeling love with one another for quite a while.

Yes... I believe anyone can fail (including me) and fall into an affair (emotional or sexual).

These guys live 6 states away... I see no evidence of anything at this point. Yes... I haven't seen her work email and I'll look into that.