Hi...this is Loving29's husband.

I feel there should be some things put in perspective.

Perhaps telling the other side of the story could shine some light on what seems a double standard to me.

1. The "affair" she post that I supposedly had. This consisted of clicking on "yes" on a facebook friend request, with a single communication...a response to an email saying, "No, I don't think we should be in communication". Not to mention this was about 20 yrs after any prior communication with the individual (none during our marriage). Emotional affair indeed.
As far as dbl standard, Loving29 is friends on FB with people she had intercourse with in high school. My opinion was never asked, and she doesn't see it as a problem for her -- just for me.

2. When she says I called her a c*** and hoped she would die (all true and regretful and apologized for), she neglects to mention that all I was doing was repeating her words verbatim (except she says d*** or a****** typically -- yes, she says this many a time). Btw, she doesn't apologize. When she says she wishes I would die on my home from work, it is because I am a d***. You see it is my fault when I do something wrong AND when she does something wrong.

3. There are many, many more examples. As far as her statements regarding if she should post or not...I never said she should or she shouldn't. I did ask that she post the whole truth and not a perverted version of the truth.

4. There are many more example. So, please take her posts with a grain of salt.

Have a nice day.

We will take your post with a grain of salt too. How do you like that?

This is one of the most disrespectful posts I have ever seen in my 14 years on this forum. If I were you, I would erase this post because it will not help your marriage ONE BIT if you dismiss everything your wife says.

It is not ok for her to dismiss your perspective and it is not ok for you to do this to her.

Instead of trying to set the record straight with a bunch of strangers on the internet, you should focus your time on eliminating disrespect and angry outbursts. You have a VERY big problem with disrespectful judgements -- have you read that chapter yet?

Do you want your wife to be in love with you? Because she will not be in love with you if you treat her so disrespectfully. What you did above is called a "disrespectful judgment" which is described as such:

here

Hi MelodyLane. Thank you for posting the information on DJs.

Yesterday following my post asking about POJA, H told me one of the biggest problems with the forum was the advice/answers of the moderators/posters. He specifically mentioned you as being awful.

I guess I find it interesting you replied to him. He has not told me if he read your post yet. Thank you for trying to help.

If you have any ideas on how I can fix my double standards, please let me know. I am thinking eliminating LB entirely will solve the issue?

If he has a problem with posters pointing out how he is abusing his wife, then your marriage is in serious, serious trouble. We don't coddle here. We point out the mistakes posters are making so that they can adjust their course and recover their marriage.

Write down his DJs and send them to your coach. Welcome him to do the same.

Loving29, it would best to stick to your own thread. You should be on your thread and your H on his. You should try and avoid reading each others threads, too, for now.

MelodyLane and many other posters here tell it like it is. They know MB backwards and forwards and have been a great help to many. They don't sugarcoat, and that's great, because if we wanted sugarcoating and pats on the backs, there are lots of other forums out there. But in my own personal search for help after my H's second affair, MB has the best guidance of all of them. Direct, to the point, and very very helpful.

[quote=LongWayFromHome]Loving29, it would best to stick to your own thread. You should be on your thread and your H on his. You should try and avoid reading each others threads, too, for now.

Thank you for the reply. This is the first time I have read that someone should only read their own thread. I will try to stick to my own writing/issues - I think it is a good idea....

Back to my original thread.

Notso, as long as you reserve the right to have an angry outburst at your wife for a perceived mistake, everything else is irrelevant.

NotSo,

I have been where you are, and I can tell you from experience that I am glad I learned how to make my wife happy instead of spending my time trying to fix her perspective and other people's perspectives. Ever since I changed my priorities on that, she is much happier, and therefore I am much happier.

Have you listened to the Marriage Builders Radio show?

I'm really not impressed that you signed up to set your wife straight, then disappeared.

Turns out, Prisca, I took your advice and decided that my wife's opinion is the one that matters rather than strangers on the internet. We have opened productive dialogue on how we both can eliminate Love Busters. And, happily, progress has been made in a positive, albeit slow, direction.

Take care!

So what are you doing to eliminate those disrespectful judgements?

So you've agreed that you do have a problem with anger?

There's not a lot of hope as long as either one of you holds to the rule that if the other one says something angry or disrespectful, it's okay to respond with anger or disrespect. You have got to be able to separate these out. When you say something angry, don't say that she is the cause of it. She may do or say something that frustrates you, but responding with angry language should not be an option.

NotSo,

Please come back and post to us so we can see your side and help you and your wife learn to stop fighting and have a happy marriage.

NotSo,

I saw your post to Dr. Harley, and I think it's great that you are posting to him! I wanted to mention that it's a little unrealistic to expect your wife to include your point of view in her posts. If she understood your point of view well enough to include it, you probably wouldn't be having such problems, right? It's up to you, not her, to participate and make sure her point of view is represented.

Also, I think it's unrealistic to expect Dr. Harley and Kim to be able to help you guys if you want your emails and communications concealed from them. If your emails hurt your wife, let her get whatever help she needs. Ask for LIGHT to be shined on what you are doing, so you can find out how you are hurting your wife and STOP.

ETA: by the way, it is not a violation of copyright for her to forward your emails.

markos,

Whether email is protected by copyright or not is a legal opinion that needs not be argued here (courts have found both ways), as it is beside the point.

The point is that I have asked (not demanded) Loving to not forward my emails. I have explained that I find it disrespectful and it is a LB to me. She has (as, it seems, have you), decided that it should't really by a LB and she should ignore my request.

If we are each free to decide that what the other feels is a LB is or is not truly a LB, I ask what is the point of the program? If I find the behavior distasteful and it hurts me, why is it that behavior should be continued? Is it reasonable for me to decide what Loving feels is a LB is not truly a LB? Of course not! Why, then, would the opposite be true?

I am not asking her not to email Kim. I am not asking her to not use these forums. I am asking that she not forward my email. Of course, she is free to do whatever makes her happy, even if it hurts/bothers me, but isn't that why we are here?

Also, I have asked her for feedback�verbal, via email, via text, however she would feel best giving feedback. However, she has refused to give me any feedback. So, in response to your wife (on my wife's thread), I have not refused to hear her complaints. If fact, I have pleaded for it.

Interestingly, Loving has asked for email correspondence for what I find to be LB behaviors. I tallied these for a week and emailed them to her (using the format that Prisca suggested to my wife). Loving promptly deleted the emails (twice) without reading.

What is missing on the forum, and I feel is missing from my wife, is the realization that I find her actions, words, demeanor, attitude, etc, just as distasteful as she finds mine.

I am happy to change behavior, I have pleaded for her guidance. What I refer to as "active" LB are easy to recognize..yelling, name calling etc. The "passive" LB are more difficult, as she/I are not aware we are doing them. A puppy will never realize its not okay to defecate in the house if it is never told it is wrong. Also, a puppy may not know what it is being scolded for if it is scolded after the fact. (Or respectfully pointed out that pooping in the house is a LB).

But, from my POV, actions like completely ignoring that I feel forwarding my email is a LB to me, and deleting without reading the list (that was requested no less!) of LB behavior, point to an unwillingness to truly participate in this program.

And if only one of us participates, then what is the point?

(btw, I have had plenty of email and phone correspondence with our coach).

As long as you continue to engage in demands, disrespect, and anger, your wife should have the right to get whatever help she feels is appropriate. There should be no privilege to keep your demands, disrespect, or anger secret. If you want to get help to stop acting this way, then invite professional scrutiny from Dr. Harley and Kim, and follow the advice they give you.

I am sure you do. I felt the same way about Prisca.

But we cannot help your wife change these behaviors, and Dr. Harley and Kim cannot help her change these behaviors, until YOU get on board with getting help to change yours.

NotSo, if Kim recommends that your wife forward emails to her, and you tell your wife not to do it, it is you who are not following the program and not cooperating with the professional help your marriage so desperately needs.

Just cooperate. It's easy, and it will help you so much.

You will never be able to make any headway getting the changes you need from your wife as long as you are unwilling to cooperate to get help.

What do my emails have to do with Loving cleaning up her side of the street and eliminating her LB behavior? I am not being facetious, but quite serious.

Shouldn't we both be trying to eliminate our LB behavior?

You imply the help I should be seeking is how to eliminate my LB behavior. I wholeheartedly agree.

Why then should she be seeking help on how to eliminate MY LB behavior, rather than her own?

thats the point. Kim has not told her to forward my emails. As per my direct communication with Kim.

What has Kim recommended that you do?

Your wife needs to get help getting your love busters eliminated because they are killing her, plain and simple. It's that serious. You are trying to limit the things she can do to get help, and as long as you are acting like that you aren't safe for her to be around.

This program can work but not if you try to limit what your wife is saying to Dr. Harley and Kim. If you truly want your wife to use this program to eliminate love busters, then show your good will by letting her have whatever private communication with Dr. Harley and Kim she thinks is necessary.

There are two problems, and neither of them can be solved when you blur them together.

One is her love busters.

One is your love busters.

In my experience, very little progress can be made on the wife's side until the husband gets really busy and far down the road of eliminating his love busters.

You want to hide your love busters from the coach, which is going to make all of this impossible.

If you are serious about eliminating your lovebusters, then welcome her to share them with your coach and Dr. Harley.

You work on you and your lovebusters. Let Kim handle your wife (she's good at that).

What are you doing to end your disrespectful judgments?

If you want her to share your perspective and not just her own, forwarding emails is actually a good way to do that. She is more likely to misrepresent what you said when she puts your thoughts in her own words than she is when she forwards your own words.

Let Dr. Harley and Kim judge your own words vs. what she says you said.

Not sure I agree 100%, but fair points. I am not trying to hide a thing.

Forward away!

What are you doing to end your disrespectful judgments?

In response to Loving29's thread so as not to hijack�

Not what I said.

I said telling me that I AM something (esp when I am not) is a DJ. Telling me I seem angry to her is perfectly ok.

Pretty sure it is unfair for either of us to tell the other one what that other person is feeling�we should only speak for ourselves.

Perhaps I am wrong. It doesn't feel disrespectful when told how it seems I am, feels very disrespectful to be told WHAT I am.

Perhaps someone can also help me understand?

Thanks!

An example of our communication, verbatim:

Me: "Thank you for cleaning up the kitchen."

K: "What the f*** is that supposed to mean?"

Markos,

Can you clue me in on what was wrong here?

Thanks!

My wife also got upset with me when I would thank her for things, when she was not feeling in love with me. Getting closer to her annoyed her. At the moment she doesn't want you thanking her, so don't do that for now. Maybe there are some other things you can express admiration to her for that she would like better.

The way she is complaining about it to you is disrespectful, so write it down on your weekly disrespectful judgments worksheet and give that sheet to Kim and your wife once a week. Don't fight with her about it; just pass the information that you felt disrespected by what she said.

My wife and I also coached with Kim. Kim told me that most couples are not able to handle complaining about love busters on the fly, at least not at first. So instead of telling each other these things right then and there, put them on the worksheets and exchange the worksheets once a week. Then, be sure not to fight about what is on the worksheets. The worksheets will tell each of you why the other is not happy.

As far as angry outbursts, talk to Dr. Harley about this, but Dr. Harley usually says that if your spouse feels you had an angry outburst, then you should accept that it was an angry outburst even if you remember it differently. I had such major anger issues that I ended up in anger management before our marriage got better. Following this rule from Dr. Harley helped me to end them and helped Prisca and me to stop fighting and learn how to have a good marriage.

ok�still a little confused.

Seems I just shouldn't speak at all?

Yes, but

If your wife feels you are angry, then it is a love buster, so she needs to tell you that so that you can learn what looks angry to her so that you can stop it.

If your wife says you are demanding, disrespectful, or angry, don't argue with her about whether you really feel that way or not. Take that information because it is extremely useful to you as far as what she feels is demanding, disrespectful, or angry.

To have a good marriage, you have to eliminate everything that your wife feels is demanding, disrespectful, or angry.

I understand that completely. If it is a LB to the recipient, it is a LB. No argument from me there at all.

This morning that she is referring to is different�we had ZERO interaction. I woke up and took the kids to school. Thats it. Not a word or action between the two of us.

From what I gather, saying mean things is a LB (duh), saying nice things is a LB (no more thank your), saying nothing is a LB.

Not sure what is left.

Thanks for the help.

There will be plenty for you guys to talk about when you've both eliminate demands, disrespectful judgments, and angry outbursts.

You will have plenty to say. You just need to filter out the demands, disrespectful judgments, and angry outbursts, and you need to avoid complaining to each other directly for now because your situation is so volatile. Prisca and I were the same way. Put your complaints on those weekly worksheets. It will stop the fights.

i can do that. Thanks.

No, keep saying nice things. But find something nice to say to her besides thanking her for cleaning the kitchen. Maybe what you are thanking her for is not something that she wants to feel appreciated for right now. I would suspect that she'd like to hear what you appreciate her for besides housework.

One last question�

How can we possibly have any UA time?

Nearly every word out of her mouth, just the way she sits, is a LB to me, and clearly vice versa for her.

And, sadly, I am not exagerrating.

I get that we are in a toxic, fragile place. How are we to be near each other at all?

Perhaps.

I am the one that usually cleans the kitchen (or the kids). That is why I said thanks.

UA time is probably not going to be successful until demands, disrespectful judgments, and angry outbursts are eliminated. But continue to schedule fifteen hours per week together to be alone and try anyway. Eventually you will be able to make it work.

The one thing I would add is to not demand UA time from your wife. UA time is mainly something that wives need more than husbands. If your demands, disrespectful judgments, and angry outbursts make UA time unpleasant enough for her, she won't be able to get the good that she needs from it, and she may have to suspend it for awhile. As long as she is willing, continue to schedule the time and make the attempt. But work very hard to avoid demands, disrespectful judgments, and angry outbursts. That needs to be priority number one for now.

We struggled with UA time for a long time, and the reason was our continued demands, disrespectful judgments, and angry outbursts.

There's no need to beat yourself up over it. It makes perfect sense to say. But she didn't like it at the moment.

Be sure to note on this week's worksheet that the way she complained about it was a love buster.

In the future when she does a domestic support task that you usually do, she may feel better about you thanking her. Or she may not - she may never like that. For now, look for other positive things to say to her.

Alas,

I am the one feeling unwilling because of her AO, DJ, etc�I am very much not demanding it. And, sadly, would like to avoid it at all costs.

As I am sure she is, as well.

Unwilling to what? Clean the kitchen?

Cleaning the kitchen is probably a job she appreciates you doing, and it would probably be a good idea to keep doing it to show your care for her, if you can. If you have to stop, and she feels like now she has to do it, she may resent doing the job, and that may make her resent you thanking her for it.

Talking this over with my wife Prisca just now, who used to get upset with me for thanking her, she commented that when she did something that she felt she HAD to do, if I thanked her for it, it really rubbed her the wrong way. That may be what is happening here - suddenly deciding not to clean the kitchen left her feeling in the lurch, and thanking her for doing a task she felt was dumped on her may have rubbed her the wrong way.

Don't beat yourself up over it, but consider doing everything you can to make love bank deposits and avoid withdrawing them. Do what you can do to care for and help your wife and be a partner with her, and if there's something you can't do or don't feel like doing at the moment, be sure not to make it out to be her fault. Least said, soonest mended.

No..sorry for the misunderstanding. Guess I should figure out how to quote others.

I am the one unwilling to have any UA time because of her AO, DJ, etc. I would just assume never be any where near her at this point.

It makes sense that you would feel that way at this stage. I'm pretty sure Dr. Harley and Kim will encourage you to continue to schedule time for undivided attention and make the attempt.

Hey, NotSoAngry,

Apparently your username is wrong. Quit telling your wife to leave you - if you are unhappy, you leave. Quit calling your wife a liar - if you have a different perspective, you are welcome to come post it.

Contact Dr. Harley and get this situation straightened out!