My husband and I really struggle with joint agreement. I have very strong feelings on what I like and don't like and for the first half of our marriage I did a lot of sacrificing (which obviously wasn't healthy for us). We have been trying for years to live joint agreement but my husband is the one who feels resentful now because much of what he wants I don't and now I am firm in expressing how I feel. My question is what do you do if you really are a picky person who doesn't want to own much and your spouse loves to collect things? Is there something I need to change in my attitude or does the policy of joint agreement mean we just own less stuff?

The Policy of Joint Agreement is a framework for reaching mutually enthusiastic agreements. It is not intended to result in one spouse sacrificing, either by putting up with something or doing without something. The default condition of doing nothing is never to be regarded as a final resolution, even (and maybe especially) when doing nothing is the goal position of one of the two spouses. In the particular issue you are having, we do not have a solution for you. The solution lies with you and your husband. What we can tell you is that as long as one of the two of you is not enthusiastic about the handling of the issue, then you still have more work to do. Find a mutually agreeable resolution. Don't just give up trying.

Most people get stuck at IDea 1 and IDea 2, aka my idea and your idea. You likely need more ideas. Dr. Harley instructs us to brainstorm with abandon. Any idea is worth examining. A good exercise is for each of you to take 5 minutes to write down 5 ideas. Then take some time to discuss. Keep searching and brainstorming until you find one you both can enthusiastically agree on.

Where we get stuck is he won't accept any ideas that don't involve him owning what he wants. He believes I need to not make a big deal out of things and feels I'm not being logical. We have brainstormed but it always comes back to that he feels my not wanting to own something is not logical and therefore too difficult to work with.

Then you are still in brainstorm mode.

I'm curious. Is he making purchases against your wishes?

Respectful persuasion is allowed. But trying to force you to use his logic is disrespectful. Just because something appears logical to him does not mean that it must do so to you. This is why we encourage people to state their objections in terms of feelings, not logic. It is impossible to argue someone doesn't feel what they feel. "I don't feel comfortable with this purchase."

He has gotten much better about that, but that's part of his frustration because now he's stuck until we agree. Part of the problem is that he feels if we don't reach joint agreement before a sale is over than we have been wasteful

I'm going to suggest two things:

First is that you create a user name for yourself, and post again under that. You and your husband should not share accounts.

Second is that you ask your H to post here on this subject, since he has posted here before. Incidentally, that is the reason for posting under separate names. If you both post at any time, how will we know whom we are talking to?

I want your H to post, because from your description, he is breaking the rules about negotiating and POJA. It's really hard for one spouse to get the other, rule-breaking spouse to use MB the way it is meant to be used, but if he comes here, we can smack him around the head a bit and make things easier.

He is not looking for POJA if he says this; he is looking for you to agree, full stop. He is looking for you to agree to buy something even though you don't want to buy it.

If he had the mindset that he wold never want you to do anything that makes you unhappy, then he could never make the argument about being wasteful, because the argument would be illogical. It isn't wasteful to let something go that you do not want to buy. It is hurtful for him to pressurise you into buying something that you don't want. It's actually wasteful for him to buy it.

"POJA" does not mean "pressurise your spouse until they agree with something you REALLY REALLY want". POJA does not mean "Im going to keep going until you agree". POJA does not mean "I'm going to be angry with you if you stop me from buying something I really want to own".

POJA is a way of showing extraordinary care and protection of your spouse, so that you never do anything, or make your spouse do anything, that they do not want. It isn't a power of veto; it is, instead, the only way to ensure that one spouse does not feel resentment and unhappiness at the other spouse's actions. Sulking, arguing, pressurising and using other unpleasant tactics until he gets his way will make your husband feel happy for now, with his purchases, but he is making his spouse unhappy in the process. That is not going to get him a happy marriage.

You do not have to agree to buy the things he wants - ever. He is not stuck until you agree to buy them. The use of 'stuck...until" in this context implies that you are holding something up that needs to happen, but that is not so. These purchases DO NOT need to happen.

If something positively needs to be done, then a couple is stuck until they agree on what to do. We had a couple here recently who were fighting about what to feed the kids each evening. A decision needed to be made, and, using POJA properly, entering into the "stuck" position, with hungry kids needing to eat and go to bed, was a wonderful way of concentrating their minds on finding a solution. "Doing nothing" was such an unpleasant place to be, that finding an agreement to "do something" was very compelling.

Similarly, we've had couples unable to agree about major family events, where missing these would have been sad for both of them. Being stuck was not a long-term solution. Doing nothing was horrible - they needed to find agreement.

However, buying collectable items is not something that needs to be done at all. If you do not like collectables in your home, then not buying them isn't "doing nothing" and leaving you in the "stuck" position. Rather, it falls under the category of something that is off the table. Buying collectables (or the particular collectables under consideration) is repellant to you, so you must not do it. If you've thought about this, and know how you feel - which is that you don't like collectables in your home - then that subject is CLOSED. There is no being stuck "until" you agree. You have not agreed, and that is the end of it.

The "until" in POJA is not "until one agrees to what the other wants".

There never anything that one spouse needs to change in her attitude to what they like and do not like. NEVER.

Having read through the threads that your husband started, I'm beginning to think that he has been using POJA to make selfish demands of you. In those threads, he has been using the term "POJA" to say "I really want to do this, and POJA says that she needs to agree with my request" - which is absolutely horrible, and not at all what Dr Harley intends for POJA to be. He does not intend POJA to be a form of pressure to agree to what one spouse wants - it is, in fact, the polar opposite.

Your H was trying to use POJA when he first came here and posted about his wanting you to wear sexy clothing during sexual activities, when you made it clear that you did not want to do this. He did it again when he posted about wanting you to consider houses by a building company that he really liked, that you did not like. He felt that you needed to change your attitude and become more open-minded - he even suggested that you were refusing to listen to perfectly logical arguments - as if there was an obvious truth to his views and his arguments, and you were being closed-minded and foolish in not changing your mind.

And now it sounds as if he is doing this with the collectables. He sees that the collectables are self-evidently desirable - so that if you don't want them you are wrong - and, with their desirability being so obvious, logic dictates that you are being foolish for not taking them when they are on sale.

His outlook is very troubling. MelodyLane picked up on this before, in both his other threads, and when she began to pin him to the wall about it, he stopped posting.

I think this is bullying. I think he has been abusing POJA and abusing you, with selfish demands. A selfish demand is still a SD even if you do not give in, ever; it is a selfish demand if your H uses punishment, such as sulking or belittling your point of view, after you refuse.

It's a request if your refusal is met with a cheery "that's fine" - and nothing more is said. It is a selfish demand if it is met with punishment. Your H has been punishing you for not allowing your views to be overridden. I think he has actually been very abusive towards you, for years.

The problem is you are brainstorming too soon.

Steve Harley told us we had to work through all of the four negotiating guidelines in order and not start on the later ones until the earlier ones are complete.

Here are the four guidelines:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3350_guide.html
Guideline 1: Set ground rules to make negotiation pleasant and safe.
Guideline 2: Identify the problem from both perspectives.
Guideline 3: Brainstorm with abandon.
Guideline 4: Choose the solution that meets the conditions of the Policy of Joint Agreement -- mutual and enthusiastic agreement.

The problem is your husband is not following guideline 1, so you can't go on to guideline 3. Go read that link.

Dr. Harley lists 3 ground rules for guideline 1:
Ground Rule #1:
Try to be pleasant and cheerful throughout negotiations
Ground Rule #2:
Put safety first-do not make demands, show disrespect,
or become angry when you negotiate, even if your spouse
makes demands, shows disrespect, or becomes angry with you
Ground Rule #3:
If you reach an impasse where you do not seem to be
getting anywhere, or if one of you is starting
to make demands, show disrespect, or become angry,
stop negotiating and come back to the issue later.

Your husband is not following ground rule #2. He is showing disrespect. He is engaging in namecalling with words like "make a big deal" and "not logical" and "too difficult to work with." Until your husband takes those ugly Disrespectful Judgment weapons off the table, you can't move forward with negotiations, so he can't collect things you are unenthusiastic about.

You should stand your ground and let him know he has to eliminate the disrespectful judgments if he wants to negotiate with you. He may respond that you are being too difficult. If so, I would suggest that you contact Dr. Harley together on his radio show. If he will not do that and insists on doing what he wants without negotiating an enthusiastic solution with you, I would plan for a separation from him until he becomes willing to eliminate his abuse.

"wasteful" is a direspectful judgment. Your husband needs to put these weapons away or you can't negotiate.

I agree that he has made negotations not possible with his demands and disrespectful judgements (which are abuse) and that is something we have had to discuss frequently. My purpose in posting today was to find what my abusive behaviors were that were contributing to the conflict.
I do feel confused about joint agreement. The first person who answered this post stated doing nothing was never a final resolution, and others have said if I don't want to own something than that's the final word.
I can stop the negotiation process if I feel it is not safe (which I do) but I would still like to understand better if I am being inappropriate when "do nothing" is what I am happy and comfortable with.
Basically, I can be honest with him but in the end I am only in charge of my actions and I would like to make sure I am being healthy.

You don't understand the concept of the POJA. When your spouse objects to a specific thing, you don't keep bringing it up; you find an ALTERNATIVE that makes you both happy. Win/win.

For example, my H hates Mexican food. It would be obnoxious to keep bringing it up so we never discuss Mexican food any more. However, we came up with a list of restaurants that we both love. Do you see how this works?

You seem to be stuck on very black and white decisions, which can only result in win/lose.

In your case, if you don't agree to his collecting, then he should find a hobby that you suits you BOTH. If you don't like the collecting, he needs to give it up.

Also, since do it yourself has not worked for you, I would strongly suggest you ante up the cost of the MB program and get professional help. There is no shame in admitting that you can't do it on your own. POJA is one of the hardest things to learn. My H and I never GOT IT until we reached out to the Harleys and went through their program. You need the online program: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi9000_program3.html

I think we would definitely benefit from the program

I don't see any evidence of any abusive behaviours on your part over this collectables issue. I think you are wondering about this because your husband has told you this. He has said, or implied, that your not agreeing to buy collectable items is abusive, because you are stopping him from doing what he wants to do. That is not true.

You are not being in the least inappropriate. I think you have that idea in your head because your husband put it there.

It is worth every penny. When we went through the program, the couple had to fly to another city and check into a hotel and go through his weekend seminar. It was then followed up with a years worth of lessons guided by a MB coach. That course ran around $2000, not including the airfare and hotel.

Now, they have it set up so you can get the same benefits from an online video course followed by lessons by your MB coach for about $1000. You don't have to fly to Orlando or San Francisco to do it. It is half the cost for the same benefit.

My H and I struggled around for about 5 years with no real change just like you. Going through the course changed everything. Our biggest problems were a) my independent behavior and b) our complete failure to negotiate good decisions. We just couldn't get that on our own, but once we were trained, everything changed in our marriage.

I will post a post I made to Dr Harley shortly after we started our POJA lessons. It was a disaster.

2007