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Thanks Markos. That's very interesting. I'll try your earlier advice to talk about my problems outside of UA time.
Neither of us are friends with the people we had affairs with anymore. In my case the other man ended it because his wife found out. I told my husband about it a few months later (after I discovered MB and found out about the policy of radical honesty). In my husband's case, he told me, and we discussed it and agreed he should terminate the friendship. What else has changed about your lives to prevent further affairs?
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Typically there is a lot that a husband can do about problems a wife is anxious about. I'd want to know a lot of specifics before concluding there's a problem that can't be solved. I wouldn't want to enable a husband to make the common mistake of telling his wife the problem can't be solved and then refusing to discuss it with her at all, especially since the solution she needs may simply be for her to be able to talk to him about the situation.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Typically there is a lot that a husband can do about problems a wife is anxious about. I'd want to know a lot of specifics before concluding there's a problem that can't be solved. I wouldn't want to enable a husband to make the common mistake of telling his wife the problem can't be solved and then refusing to discuss it with her at all, especially since the solution she needs may simply be for her to be able to talk to him about the situation. I totally agree. It is never good to shut your spouse down and be closed to conversation. And this husband may be missing out on a prime opportunity to deposit love units. And sometimes, people just want to vent. I remember Dr. Harley discussing this on MBradio. Wish I could remember which show. Smallpeace, what exactly are you looking for your husband to say or do in these situations?
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Thanks Markos. That's very interesting. I'll try your earlier advice to talk about my problems outside of UA time.
Neither of us are friends with the people we had affairs with anymore. In my case the other man ended it because his wife found out. I told my husband about it a few months later (after I discovered MB and found out about the policy of radical honesty). In my husband's case, he told me, and we discussed it and agreed he should terminate the friendship. What else has changed about your lives to prevent further affairs? We're working on meeting each other's emotional needs, and avoiding having them met elsewhere.
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Typically there is a lot that a husband can do about problems a wife is anxious about. I'd want to know a lot of specifics before concluding there's a problem that can't be solved. I wouldn't want to enable a husband to make the common mistake of telling his wife the problem can't be solved and then refusing to discuss it with her at all, especially since the solution she needs may simply be for her to be able to talk to him about the situation. I totally agree. It is never good to shut your spouse down and be closed to conversation. And this husband may be missing out on a prime opportunity to deposit love units. And sometimes, people just want to vent. I remember Dr. Harley discussing this on MBradio. Wish I could remember which show. Smallpeace, what exactly are you looking for your husband to say or do in these situations? I guess just provide sympathy and reassurance, and maybe insight and advice. He basically said there was nothing I could do about it and he didn't want to talk about it anymore.
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[quote=markos][quote=smallpeace]Thanks Markos. That's very interesting. I'll try your earlier advice to talk about my problems outside of UA time.
Neither of us are friends with the people we had affairs with anymore. In my case the other man ended it because his wife found out. I told my husband about it a few months later (after I discovered MB and found out about the policy of radical honesty). In my husband's case, he told me, and we discussed it and agreed he should terminate the friendship. Did you and your husband end all contact with these people?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Typically there is a lot that a husband can do about problems a wife is anxious about. I'd want to know a lot of specifics before concluding there's a problem that can't be solved. I wouldn't want to enable a husband to make the common mistake of telling his wife the problem can't be solved and then refusing to discuss it with her at all, especially since the solution she needs may simply be for her to be able to talk to him about the situation. I totally agree. It is never good to shut your spouse down and be closed to conversation. And this husband may be missing out on a prime opportunity to deposit love units. And sometimes, people just want to vent. I remember Dr. Harley discussing this on MBradio. Wish I could remember which show. Smallpeace, what exactly are you looking for your husband to say or do in these situations? I guess just provide sympathy and reassurance, and maybe insight and advice. He basically said there was nothing I could do about it and he didn't want to talk about it anymore. Can you give us a specific example?
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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We had a discussion this morning. It turns out that the reason he didn't want to talk about it was that it felt kind of sprung on him during our UA time, and he was worried that it would have a negative impact. That's the short version anyway. We agreed to follow Markos' advice and set aside separate, non-UA time to talk about problems. We talked about my problem today and he was very helpful and empathetic.  But something else came out it in the discussion. I hadn't mentioned it on this forum, but the incident (me wanting to talk about my problems and him not wanting to) lead to a huge fight. I was upset when he didn't want to talk about it and told him I was hurt, and he saw that as me aggressively not allowing him to drop the conversation. I realize that I should have followed the PoJA and let it go. He got really mad, and had a major angry outburst the next morning. We talked about that today, and he said that when I do something that he interprets as aggressive (like talking to him about something he doesn't want to talk about), he loses empathy for me, and starts to see me as his enemy, not a person with feelings, and that leads to his angry outbursts. So my question now is, how can he work on building empathy? He's willing to work on it.
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Dr. Harley's position is that empathy can actually be pretty rare but the Policy of Joint Agreement is a tool for people to use that will cause them to behave as if they have empathy even when they do not feel it.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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smallpeace, my husband has obsessive compulsive disorder and he used to talk with me when he had a "bad" thought or a particularly bad bout of anxiety. For a long time, I listened because I wanted to be supportive and understanding. Ultimately, however, it became draining and very unpleasant, and I wanted him to stop. We had several arguments about it--me claiming that it was a lovebuster for him to discuss his anxiety (falling under the category of "annoying habit") and he claiming that I wasn't meeting his need to talk through it. I ultimately posed the question to this board and Dr. Harley, who encouraged him to see a therapist.
Occasionally my husband still wants to talk through something if he is having a bout of anxiety, but I remind him that I'm not his therapist and those discussions are best left for therapy because I'm not equipped with the tools to help him through it.
Just wanted to give my 2 cents from the perspective of somebody who does not enjoy discussions rooted in anxiety. From what I have heard Dr. Harley say, wives really don't cope well with husbands' anxiety issues, because their emotional needs are basically rooted in security, and a husband with severe anxiety is extremely threatening to their sense of security. Dr. Harley generally advises men to get treatment if they have such issues. But I have not heard him advise it the other way around. I am pretty sure Dr. Harley does encourage men to support their wives through their anxieties, take it seriously, and use it as an opportunity to meet the wife's emotional needs. I feel pretty confident Dr. Harley would encourage the husband here to meet smallpeace's need for conversation and her need to have him as a partner in life in solving and dealing with her problems. I also feel pretty confident he would encourage smallpeace to prioritize the problems she is facing and not allow unpleasant conversation about them to disrupt UA time. And I know for an absolute fact he'd encourage smallpeace to talk to us about the affairs that have happened in their marriage and the steps that have been taken to recover and prevent recurrence. This is absolutely correct--Dr. Harley does state that it's easier for a husband to handle his wife's anxiety than vice versa. However, when smallpeace stated: I have anxiety issues and other feelings that, while not really debilitating, come up every once in awhile and I feel a need to talk about them. I had an emotional affair because I felt like I couldn't have intimate conversations with him. I assumed this issue with anxiety might be bigger than smallpeace simply wanting to talk about unpleasant topics. In Dr. Harley's email to me he said "In my book, He Wins, She Wins, I discuss how important it is for a person with an emotional disorder to take responsibility for it. It should not be up to the spouse to �cure� her mate. Emotional disorders left untreated makes it impossible to meet emotional needs or follow the Policy of Joint Agreement when making joint decisions. It also greatly limits the possibilities that are acceptable." My thinking was that if the topics that smallpeace wanted to discuss were rooted in her anxiety, she might want to explore seeing a therapist (given that she brought up possibly needing to go to therapy). I could be making a mountain out of a molehill, just wanted to make sure that smallpeace wasn't using discussions with her husband as a way to "cure" her anxiety. Okay, going back to lurking mode! Just wanted to share my experience.
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smallpeace, my husband has obsessive compulsive disorder and he used to talk with me when he had a "bad" thought or a particularly bad bout of anxiety. For a long time, I listened because I wanted to be supportive and understanding. Ultimately, however, it became draining and very unpleasant, and I wanted him to stop. We had several arguments about it--me claiming that it was a lovebuster for him to discuss his anxiety (falling under the category of "annoying habit") and he claiming that I wasn't meeting his need to talk through it. I ultimately posed the question to this board and Dr. Harley, who encouraged him to see a therapist.
Occasionally my husband still wants to talk through something if he is having a bout of anxiety, but I remind him that I'm not his therapist and those discussions are best left for therapy because I'm not equipped with the tools to help him through it.
Just wanted to give my 2 cents from the perspective of somebody who does not enjoy discussions rooted in anxiety. From what I have heard Dr. Harley say, wives really don't cope well with husbands' anxiety issues, because their emotional needs are basically rooted in security, and a husband with severe anxiety is extremely threatening to their sense of security. Dr. Harley generally advises men to get treatment if they have such issues. But I have not heard him advise it the other way around. I am pretty sure Dr. Harley does encourage men to support their wives through their anxieties, take it seriously, and use it as an opportunity to meet the wife's emotional needs. I feel pretty confident Dr. Harley would encourage the husband here to meet smallpeace's need for conversation and her need to have him as a partner in life in solving and dealing with her problems. I also feel pretty confident he would encourage smallpeace to prioritize the problems she is facing and not allow unpleasant conversation about them to disrupt UA time. And I know for an absolute fact he'd encourage smallpeace to talk to us about the affairs that have happened in their marriage and the steps that have been taken to recover and prevent recurrence. This is absolutely correct--Dr. Harley does state that it's easier for a husband to handle his wife's anxiety than vice versa. However, when smallpeace stated: I have anxiety issues and other feelings that, while not really debilitating, come up every once in awhile and I feel a need to talk about them. I had an emotional affair because I felt like I couldn't have intimate conversations with him. I assumed this issue with anxiety might be bigger than smallpeace simply wanting to talk about unpleasant topics. In Dr. Harley's email to me he said "In my book, He Wins, She Wins, I discuss how important it is for a person with an emotional disorder to take responsibility for it. It should not be up to the spouse to �cure� her mate. Emotional disorders left untreated makes it impossible to meet emotional needs or follow the Policy of Joint Agreement when making joint decisions. It also greatly limits the possibilities that are acceptable." My thinking was that if the topics that smallpeace wanted to discuss were rooted in her anxiety, she might want to explore seeing a therapist (given that she brought up possibly needing to go to therapy). I could be making a mountain out of a molehill, just wanted to make sure that smallpeace wasn't using discussions with her husband as a way to "cure" her anxiety. Okay, going back to lurking mode! Just wanted to share my experience. I really think we need to get more specifics here. I am EXTREMELY concerned that smallpeace said what she wanted to talk to her husband about was "insecurities." 9 times out of 5 here, when somebody says they are worried about feeling insecure, the REAL problem is that their spouse is doing something reprehensible like having friendships with other women, or looking at porn, and the offended spouse is made to feel as if something is wrong with them and they are "insecure" or "jealous" or has an "emotional disorder," when the real solution is for the spouse to quit being a jerk and start following the policy of joint agreement not to mention basic human decency. We have no real idea what the scenario is because smallpeace hasn't given us much to go on (hint, hint, smallpeace! ). Plus (and I actually discussed this with Dr. Harley recently) Dr. Harley does advise men and women pretty differently about this sort of thing - he has said that men who have anxiety issues are extremely difficult for women to deal with (full disclosure: I have some pretty high anxieties). But when it's the wife who has high anxiety Dr. Harley really does encourage the husband to accommodate her as part of caring for her. If there's a problem they need to solve it and if it's a problem of the past they need to not dwell on it but her husband needs to know about her emotional reactions to everything - especially if it's her emotional reactions to something he is doing.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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By the way, I'm sitting next to my wife in a doctor's office specifically because she has a fear of doctor's offices that many would call "irrational," but she needs to see a doctor today. I'm here just to support her. Just now the door opened and the doctor started to come in and then turned around and backed out to go to another room, and Prisca grabbed me hard and just about wouldn't let go.
If I were to call this an "emotional disorder," Dr. Harley would be the first one to let me know that the problem isn't my wife's anxieties; the problem is I'm a disrespectful jerk.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Totally fair, Markos. And hope Prisca had a good appointment!
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He got really mad, and had a major angry outburst the next morning. We talked about that today, and he said that when I do something that he interprets as aggressive (like talking to him about something he doesn't want to talk about), he loses empathy for me, and starts to see me as his enemy, not a person with feelings, and that leads to his angry outbursts. Your husband has angry outbursts because you want to talk to him? And then blames you for his angry outbursts? Nothing else in your marriage can be solved until he eliminates ALL angry outbursts. And he won't be able to do that as long as he blames you for them. Listen, your husband isn't 2 years old. No one can MAKE him mad. He has angry outbursts because he chooses not to control himself. He lets himself go insane in response to frustration. Don't let him blame you for that.
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Don't let him blame you for that. Right, not even subtly. Now that Prisca has made me notice the angry outbursts, this sounds a lot like what Prisca and I used to go through: everything great for awhile and then BOOM! angry outburst.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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"First off, angry outbursts by either spouse prevents recovery. No marital problems can be solved if one spouse has even a very occasional angry outburst. Whatever the anger is related to, it makes a solution impossible." "I regard angry outbursts as the worst Love Buster. That's because it's not only physically and emotionally dangerous to the other spouse, but it completely eliminates the possibility of marital problem solving. For most couples we try to help, if they can't stop their angry outbursts, nothing else works. They can't follow the Policy of Joint Agreement and they can't follow the Policy of Undivided Attention. Without those two rules in place, there's no hope for a satisfying marriage.
So you must do everything in your power to stop all angry outbursts completely." "Early on, I came to recognize that angry outbursts are probably the most damaging thing a spouse can do in marriage. I say this in spite of my recognition that infidelity is also a very damaging behavior. But I'm often more optimistic about the recovery of a marriage that has suffered from infidelity than than recovery of a marriage that suffers from angry outbursts. The primary reason that angry outbursts just about eliminate the hope of marital happiness is that even if they are very infrequent, they prevent a couple from solving their problems because the threat always hangs over every conversation. The first guideline for marital negotiation is to make the discussion pleasant and safe, and an angry spouse fails that very first condition, making the rest of it impossible to implement. Angry spouses simply create an environment that makes it impossible to make marital adjustments. That's why I advise couples with multiple problems that include anger to overcome the anger first, and then focus on the rest of the problems later." "In some cases, I've recommended separation when one spouse doesn't take their angry outbursts seriously. For those who have not experienced physical abuse, they often feel that separation is too extreme. But I know for a fact as a clinical psychologist that angry outbursts are a form of temporary insanity, and most people who have angry outbursts cannot control what they do. In some cases, the very first angry outburst that became physical resulted in permanently injured or even death. The angry spouse has no idea that they would hurt their spouse so badly until it had already happened. Then they are grief-stricken at what took place. Angry outbursts must be completely eliminated in marriage, or the marriage is too dangerous to continue." Prisca:
How is Markos doing with his anger management program? A point we often make is that if angry outbursts are not eliminated from a marriage, no other problems can be solved.
Best wishes,
Willard F. Harley, Jr.
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I assumed this issue with anxiety might be bigger than smallpeace simply wanting to talk about unpleasant topics. In Dr. Harley's email to me he said "In my book, He Wins, She Wins, I discuss how important it is for a person with an emotional disorder to take responsibility for it. It should not be up to the spouse to “cure” her mate. Emotional disorders left untreated makes it impossible to meet emotional needs or follow the Policy of Joint Agreement when making joint decisions. It also greatly limits the possibilities that are acceptable."
My thinking was that if the topics that smallpeace wanted to discuss were rooted in her anxiety, she might want to explore seeing a therapist (given that she brought up possibly needing to go to therapy). I could be making a mountain out of a molehill, just wanted to make sure that smallpeace wasn't using discussions with her husband as a way to "cure" her anxiety.
Okay, going back to lurking mode! Just wanted to share my experience. WLL, I wouldn't say that I have an anxiety disorder. I have anxiety about certain topics, and problems with self-acceptance, but I don't bring them up very often (meaning maybe once every few months). When I do bring them up, though, it's because I feel it would help me to talk through it, and if my husband doesn't want to, I feel like he doesn't care about me. However, I think he and I have pretty much resolved this issue for now. I'm also exploring ways that I can deal with my own anxiety, such as yoga and meditation.
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I really think we need to get more specifics here. I am EXTREMELY concerned that smallpeace said what she wanted to talk to her husband about was "insecurities." 9 times out of 5 here, when somebody says they are worried about feeling insecure, the REAL problem is that their spouse is doing something reprehensible like having friendships with other women, or looking at porn, and the offended spouse is made to feel as if something is wrong with them and they are "insecure" or "jealous" or has an "emotional disorder," when the real solution is for the spouse to quit being a jerk and start following the policy of joint agreement not to mention basic human decency. We have no real idea what the scenario is because smallpeace hasn't given us much to go on (hint, hint, smallpeace! ). Markos, it's not anxiety about him or anything he's doing.
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What is he going to do about his anger?
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Don't let him blame you for that. Right, not even subtly. Now that Prisca has made me notice the angry outbursts, this sounds a lot like what Prisca and I used to go through: everything great for awhile and then BOOM! angry outburst. What did you do to stop the angry outbursts?
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