There. Contacted the lawyer to set up an appointment. I was chicken enough to do this via email. But, taking advantage of email, I did ask a few questions.

Good girl!!! Keep moving forward.

Every day proves again why a separation is so vital if this marriage is going to have ANY chance down the road.

Had we been in different houses, I wouldn't have had four serious love busters that completely wiped out a good meal together, a hug and a conversation.

Had we been in different houses, I would have got a good night's sleep and not been so tense that my teeth were clenched. I wouldn't have gone to bed irritated and awoken this morning in a foul mood because of a nasty habit of his in the mornings when he actually DOES wake up with me.

Today, I came to work and learned of the sudden death of one of my coworkers. This death has me thinking. The coworker was a good person, pleasant to be around, overcoming his disability as if it didn't exist (100% deaf). I am reminded that we are not promised tomorrow and that disability doesn't always mean unable. This encourages me even more to stop putting off what I know needs to happen.

OTF - Sorry he didn't take the aversion article as a wake up call. I might have been overly optimistic to think that he would see it the way it was intended. At least he has read it, and now he can't claim he didn't know.


I see for the first time (despite my best friend telling me this over and over) that he operates out of immediate gratification and crisis. In all aspects of his life. He does not see the train coming, he ignores the horn blowing. Suddenly, when the train is about to wipe him out, he's jumping around, looking for solutions, confused about why it's so bad all of a sudden. It's that wait-until-it's-a-crisis way of life that has brought about most, if not all, of our challenges.

I don't want anything I am about to say to be interpreted as going against the advice you have been given.
I copied the above as when I read it, I thought you could have been writing about me a year ago.
I have ADHD - didn't know until less than 10 years ago. And that paragraph described me, and others I know with ADHD. We live to a great extent in the now.

Why I mention this is to ask, is there a possibility of something like this in play? I don't know if MB principles would care - but I would consider it much like an addiction in that it does make it difficult to adjust our behaviors, and habits. The best day of my life (aside from the day I met WW, and the day my children were born) was the day she told me she thinks I might have ADHD (later confirmed) and this started a journey of healing that I am not done with.

Again - nothing here is to contradict the awesome advice of others, only to offer something else that might be at play. For me with treatment I have found it much easier to make changes than I ever could before. Without being diagnosed, and medication I wouldn't have a prayer of making any changes - I am too unaware of my actions and the impact they have on others. Often until it is too late.
Good luck, and don't give up on you path.

Allan, it does not make any difference whatsoever. When water is coming through the roof it doesn't matter if the water is coming from a hurricane or a monsoon, the leak must be plugged. Regardless of the cause, staying with him only furthers damages her lovebank. Much more time and she will be beyond repair. The damage is not mitigated by an awareness of any potential disorders.

It is hard enough to persuade women to separate and we need to help her achieve that objective.

I didn't intend anything I wrote to dissuade OTF from separating, this was meant as something to consider after - ie. after the monsoon - or hurricane.
I believe I was quite clear (stating it twice) that this was not intended to contradict your advice.
My apologies.

Oh, believe me, both of you are right.

Allan, yes, it's possible that he has undiagnosed ADHD. He's always been high-energy, preferring to be in constant motion. Getting him to even consider seeing the proper professionals and finding out if that diagnosis fits is really something I'm not currently equipped to help with. At least not emotionally. Not right now.

I still want to separate. It's like this. My hypothyroidism wasn't the only reason I was always tired and depressed. I had other, very good, reasons for being tired and for being depressed. Since my diagnoses (before I met husband), the daily medication does help me maintain a fair balance. But, because hubby knows about the diagnosis and the daily medication, he's prone to blame my depression and/or unhappiness on the medicine not working or my hypothyroidism getting worse. When I explain that it is more related to how he treats me than that, he pushes back.

For those reasons, even if he is ADHD and even if getting a diagnosis could really help him to settle his mind long enough to see the damage he's been causing, he needs to learn how to cope with it and with the medication and with the consequences of his actions without me there to be a scapegoat. If I'm there, he is more likely to blame me than his ADHD. If I'm out of the home, he has to accept that he is the way he is - with or without the diagnosis.

My husband has not lived alone as an adult. He married young, went from wife one to fianc� to me. He's always had a distraction. I do believe that, given a year or two as a single man with no children in the home, he will come to realize that his impact on other people has not been what was intended. This can't happen with me or our son in the home.

A potential diagnosis of ADHD makes me even more determined that this separation will have to happen.

Ok thanks. Just so you know, it is very, very hard to persuade women to separate in these situations. One of the hardest things we do on this forum. I know one woman who was in a similar situation - Sunnytimes - that it took TEN YEARS to get her to separate. You should know it is common for them to embrace any reason to avoid it, making the situation worse.

And just so you know, we have had many spouses with ADHD and even autism who were able to adapt these principles. It is a matter of motivation. When they are motivated, they actually do better than those who don't have those disorders.

I should qualify this statement, when she first arrived, she received dreadful advice on the MB101 forum. Back then, the forum was a cesspool of personal opinions that did not even resemble Marriage Builders. When she came back years later after enduring years of hell, she received the correct advice and separated. By that time, her marriage was really over. She is happily remarried today.

I can understand that, really.

Once most people have some self-awareness and some tools, all they lack to implement those tools in the best way possible is some motivation.

We are creatures under the laws of physics after all - in my opinion. Those of us at rest will stay at rest. Those in motion will stay at motion. Until and unless some force comes in to change the situation.

For me, Marriage Builders has been that force - letting me know for the first time that marriage can be made better for BOTH partners, but that the one who is unhappy can't get that changed unless THEY DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT. I see the hope, but I took some time seeing that motivation to CHANGE myself and my expectations and possibly even my address, will be required. Not just him, me, too! Not just me, him, too!

So, I await hearing from the lawyer. I cope with my current reality that I am telling my husband that I am not happy and hearing him be furious that he's 'doing all this stuff' and it's STILL not enough. I cope with the reality that he will not read the SA article (I thought he had, apparently stepson interrupted that). And, even though I gave him a synopsis, he refuses to accept that we will have a sexless marriage unless and until he learns to make love bank deposits WITHOUT also making withdrawals in the same transaction!

None of that can or will be learned with me in the home. Certainly nothing will be changed. Because, given enough pressure over enough time, I cave. It's why I need to get out of there. I don't hate my husband. Sometimes I even like him. I just know that the pressure over time formula has worked too many times in the past, so he will try it. Aggressively if it takes too long by his reckoning.

OTF - This is great - I really didn't want to discourage you.

ML - your comment is awesome as well. It gives me hope - I know how determined we (ADHD'rs) can be, and succeed or fail in terms of my M I will learn from all this.
Thank you.

OTF, when I left, my xh went back to a previous XGF. It helped me come to peace knowing that waiting longer would not have led to change. I am so grateful that you are getting help from an attorney and taking steps for a better life for you and your DS.

Alan, the major difference is you responded to your DW when she told you how your behavior affected her by getting help and taking responsibility. I am happy you made positive changes in your relationship.

I second what Melody is saying. When I came back I was well aware that I'd only continue to hit the same dead end in my marriage that I'd been hitting for years no matter what I did "better", and still I was so shocked at the idea of separating. It took a lot of persuasion, some quite forceful, to get me to even consider the idea.

An abused woman generally is thinking of everyone but herself, which is what her abuser has conditioned her to do. The letter posted by Elaina7 from Dr. Harley stating that the abuser meters the abuse so one instance is never quite "enough" to leave is SO very true. I experienced 25 years of that.

We are so conditioned to kowtow to our abuser that in my case, my abuser committed a nearly criminal act of infidelity and *I* was worried about how **HE** was feeling, to the point of purchasing some items for him to cheer him up, etc etc. Because I had thought to not break up my children's home over this (which I regret now), I stuffed my feelings and catered after his. How messed up is that?

This forum has done a yeoman's job of persuading OnTheFence to start thinking for herself. No amount of pity, even if there is a new and correct medical diagnosis, can change the abuse she will continue to suffer if she does not require a change in how her husband treats her.

A separation is MORE than warranted in her situation, and certainly the only act that will cause her husband to expect more of himself, and to provide extraordinary care to his wife. OnTheFence deserves this kind of marriage.

After an abusive husband increases his abuse to the ridiculous, such as this, when he still encounters no consequences, he loses all incentive to treat his wife with any respect at all.

OnTheFence is experiencing this when she continues to cave in for sex that she doesn't want to engage in. He knows she'll cave; why should he do different?

My xH used to brag to people that he could do anything and I'd never leave him. How brazen, how ungrateful - especially when he did do the proverbial "anything" and his only gratitude was to escalate his abuse.

15 years later when I told him that his flirtatious manner with teenagers bothered me (due to the referenced event) he looked me in the eye and said "because it bothers you, I'll stop that". Then he turned from the room, went straight back to the kitchen and continued flirting with the girls' friends, using "sweetheart" & etc - the very words we had just discussed and he promised not to use again.

An abuser feels **NO** gratitude for your acceptance of abuse. It just emboldens them to want more.

OnTheFence will certainly keep getting more until she takes action to stop being abused. In this case, separation. She has tried to ask nicely; she has tried to set boundaries; she has pleaded; she has acquiesced, she has rolled over many times. It has gotten her nowhere. It will not get her any further in the future than it has in the past.

Thanks for posting, Sunnytimes!!

I have been here every day for almost 17 years and I can say without hesitation that the hardest cases to deal with are the women in bad/abusive marriages. They are the hardest to persuade to take the necessary steps.

BUT....they are also the happiest, most grateful when they eventually do. They experience such a dramatic, positive change in a very short period of time. There is no other class of situation that experiences such a dramatic change. I have never encountered a woman who regretted her decision to separate.

Fortunately, we now have a handful of these success stories, such as Elaina, Sunnytimes and others, who can help women to the other side. They have been through it and can confidently advise others. BOTH of these posters have been coached by Dr. Harley too, so that is a great benefit.

Anytime!

I'm still very grateful for your help, Melody!

Yes, Thank you, Sunnytimes.

I am grateful to you for not phrasing things gently. I keep trying to hide from that word - abuse. I thank you for not letting me duck and hide from it. It's a shame that in my state, the only abuse allowed to qualify for a divorce is physical. Emotional and financial abuse do not meet the state standards.

So, I file for separation, get the husband out of my home. I begin to make life work without him for me and our son.

Again, thank you, SunnyTimes. Your direct approach and encouraging words have helped me.

OTF - first - follow ML and the others suggestion - separate - and don't return until he proves he treats you correctly - following MB principles. (sorry if I didn't word that correctly I hope you know what I mean)

One thing that occurred to me when I read this. I wasn't too sure of medication when I was first diagnosed. The initial diagnosis was the result of a one hour conversation with a psychiatrist - one hour and she handed me a prescription for medication potentially for the rest of my life. Wanting to be sure, I got a second opinion from a Psychologist who did 4 afternoons of testing. I still wasn't sure until he told me that untreated people with ADHD are 50% more likely than the general population to get divorced. That one sentence was enough for me to start and continue treatment - if only he had introduced me to MB at the time (and I had been receptive).

Would you consider making one of the conditions of recovery be that he goes and gets tested, and follows a treatment plan - keep the testing open - not just ADHD but other potential issues as well?