Hello my good friends, <P>I don't mean to be a downer today, but I have been fighting this wave of depression for the past week and it just seems to be getting worse. It is taking everything I have in me today to keep from crawling under my desk, curling up in the fetal position and bawling my eyes out. I'm at 51 weeks and counting in this mess...trial...life event...whatever it's called. Sometimes I think my wife and I will make it and sometimes I don't. <P>At the present time, I don't feel like we are making it. We are drifting a part again and I don't know what to do to bridge the chasm anymore. I haven't changed my behaviors. I give her lots of touch. I try and talk to her and keep communication lines open. We still go out together, but at best I'm just a friend to her not even a best friend.<P>If physical intimacy is the gage, then we are in trouble again. Several months ago, we decided together on a frequency. Well, what do you know, there is always something that gets in the way. Too tired, stomach ache, head ache, out of town, etc. I have gotten the message that she doesn't want to be intimate with me and so I am not interested in getting shot down anymore. I was always initiating it anyway. In reality, all I want right now is to just hold her. Just snuggle for a while. Maybe just feel a little wanted every now and then. <P>You know the other night we went to see "The Story of Us". No impact on her at all. The only comment was "that movie has a lot of truth to it". As for me, I was weeping at the end when Michele Pfiffer was telling her husband how she felt. Oh well.<P>I wonder to myself whether or not that this is it. Maybe we can't get any closer. We never had a deep level of intimacy in our marriage. She has this wall around her heart that I can't crawl over or knock down. Maybe I just need to find happiness in the face of despair. She just doesn't have anything left for me. I feel as though she emotionally divorced herself from me and is not interested in getting it back. She won't go to counseling. She won't read any of the books I have. I seem to be the only one interested in keeping this marriage together and the family together for that matter. I handle everything in our home. She does her own laundry and that's about it. <P>We talk about our future together which seems odd to me. She wants to move into a nicer house. She talks about going on a trip with just me. We have a nice time when we are alone, but she doesn't feel anything physically for me. She has no desire to touch me. Any hugs I get are the ones I ask for. The good bye kisses are becoming infrequent. I just her to give something back - just a little. <P>As for the OM, he's still in the picture much less than before. They still email one another about once a week and maybe see each other for lunch once a month. She gets very upset when I challenge her on this. After all "Nothing is going on; we just talk". I think that is a quote out of the movie we just saw. <P>To sum it up; I would say she's content with our marriage the way it is. I, obviously, am not. I should shy away from offering anyone advice for a while, I just don't have any uplifting words to offer.<P>SHA

Oh, SHA, I am so sorry you are feeling this way. You've been such an inspiration and strength for me and so many others throughout these months.<P>You have worked so very hard, with so little reward. It's time to give yourself some sort of break, I think. I'm not sure what, but those down times come and I think sometimes we have to listen to them.<P>Hold on. We're all here for you. No advice, but I'm reading.<P>Lori

Hello my friend -<P>Just signing off to go to work and saw this....can't write much now - I'll come back after....<P>But I wanted to pull you out from under your desk, wipe off the dust bunnies and give you a BIG HUG!!!!<P>I'm sorry that things aren't at the point you want yet....have faith SHA, they'll get there!!!!<P>Have you talked with Dr. H at all lately? Perhaps he could give some insight that would help move things along? <P>If I come out there (per lawyer advice if you remember) - She won't like it!!!<BR>This Warrior Gal doesn't take to well to her friends being sad.......<P>I'll think on things and see if I could come up with something to help...just close your eyes and picture all the HUGS we're sending you when you want to go back under the desk.....<P><BR>We Love Ya and somewhere under the muck your Wife's brain is mired in - she does to.....that's why the "future" talk!!<P>HUGS, STRENGTH AND PRAYERS,<P>Sheba<P>

{{{{{{{{{{Sir Hurst Alot}}}}}}}}}}<P>It's a hard, hard journey we've decided to accept..<P>Just looking back in <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6070_sa.html" TARGET=_blank>"Surviving An Affair"(SAA)</A> a quote sticks out... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>While there is no hope for reconciliation when the affair is underway, as soon as the affair is ended, reconciliation is definitely possible. (page 74 of SAA)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Your W has obviously has not given up the affair... Your time in <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A> may be coming to an end... I know this is a hard one, but maybe you need to think through this long and hard... but maybe you've reach your limit... time for <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan B</A>.<P>In your situation with your W being home... this is escpecially difficult (an envious position for those who don't have their spouses home)... but just try and think about it. Don't let your <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3200_love.html" TARGET=_blank>Love Bank</A> for her drain to zero!<P>Prayers for you... <P>A germain quote from a reply to a post that I read earlier... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Life is not for regret, nor for envy, nor for dreaming. It's for making the most of ourselves and the time we have with our loved ones. (credit to "nonplused")<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Jim<BR>---------------------------------<BR>Where two or more are gathered...

SHA,<BR> The reason you're not seeing many results from your wife is because of her continuing contact with OM--even if it's only a little. Every contact sets her back to zero. As long as she's talking to him or seeing him (even if it's only once a month), she will not be able to get her love for you back.<BR> As to what you should do? I can't tell you that, but you'll know when you should do Plan B.

SHA, I'm sorry to say that I sound just like your wife. I don't, however, have contact with the OM ... that would be a killer for sure. I am just existing in the marriage.<P>I am going to go to a counselor (next Mon).<P>I don't initiate anything, just give what is asked of me. I don't know how H stands it. I wonder if he's prepared to live the rest of our lives like this ... or if he'll eventually let me go.<P>I know you're in pain, but speaking from your wife's standpoint, it's not something she plans on changing. Maybe she's just trying to wear you down.

Hello, SHA<P>I don't know much about your side of the coin (I'm the betrayer), but I do know depression.<P>Even on max anti-deps (currently Zoloft), I have days where I feel like the world is collapsing.<P>Your situation is so much worse than mine. From looking at your previous posts, you have shown incredible strength over these 51 weeks. People who can do what you have done really set an example for the rest of us...<P>I try to put myself in your wife's place. I think the problem is the presence of the OM. I got ONE IM from the OW the other day and that set me back significantly.<P>I'm not sure she believes deep down that the relationship with the OM is really done and over as long as she has periodic contact.<P>I'm not convinced yet that mine is...but I start my day telling myself that.<P>I'm so sorry for your pain...

SHA<BR>{{{{{{{{{{{{{HUGS}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<BR>Remember last summer when we had to create a plan WS?<BR>I think it involved taking care of oneself.<BR>I think you are to the point where you have got to think about doing something for yourself.<BR>I am not absolutely positive that H has no more contact with the bimbo but I don't care anymore. I learned to like me.<BR>(Careful I'm in the Dragon Lady mode)<BR>you know that I understand your depression completely. It is very hard to drag oneself out of it. Sometimes you need to wallow for a bit. But then you HAVE to think of what you can do for you.<BR>Physical exercise is a real depression buster. Just five minutes.<BR>So what can you do for YOU?<BR>Last night I went to a hockey parent's meeting. After it was done I picked up an old friend and we went for a drink. I didn't tell H where I was going after the meeting. I turned off my cell phone. A little naughty but I had to teach myself that I am important and I deserve a little fun.<BR>H called a couple of times but he is comfortable now. So am I. He knew he was just getting a little lesson. He doesn't always remember to let me know where he is going either. It's okay now though. I was home by 10:30 and we just watched TV together. I think he repects me more now because he's had that little taste of me not always being there every minute. He couldn't find one of his tools while I was gone and he mentioned that I would have found it for him. He missed me.<BR>Okay I'm rambling.<BR>Point is - Think about yourself the individual and what you can do for Sir HA.

SHA,<P>Oh my friend, how i feel for you. <P>As you know our situations are very much alike and we even came here at about the same time oh those many months ago. What i'm going to say is advice only, and some may accuse me of taking the hard line, but remember i say this because i care about YOU.<P>Preface: My W is moving out the 1st of Dec as we are separating. Time will tell if her love for me returns AND if my love for her returns to the level that I feel is necessary to continue the marriage.<P>Your W's actions w/OM: They're unacceptable. She must end all contact or you go to Plan B and she moves out. Not you, her. Be nice, but tell her in no uncertain terms that her actions are outside the boundries of acceptable behavior in marriage. <P>Your depression: Take it from someone who was dying inside each day. Get to your doctor and get some help. Paxil has saved my sanity and allowed me to regain control of myself. It's really nice to be able to think rationally again. I've experienced no side effects, but my outlook on life has done a 180. I'm able to accept my inability to control my W's actions and to realize that my life has value outside of her. Best of all...my children have their dad back in body AND in spirit. <P>Again, some my feel my recommendations are a bit drastic or harsh, but i know first hand the pain you're in and i know that if you don't stop beating your head against that brick wall, you're going to hurt YOURSELF. <P>I'm truly sorry i can't be one of those that says keep trying the Plan A, but you do not deserve to live the way you are right now. In a nutshell.....IT'S TIME TO THINK OF SHA FIRST !!!<P>My thoughts and prayers are with you.

SHA: Hey bud, chin up!<P>I am receiving similar treatment right now. I really don't know what to do. Maybe I should give up take my ball and go home. I look at the situation, mine, yours, everyone's and wonder 'What has changed?' What is different now than before? Why did she / he come home in the first place? Have I quit communicating? Am I not being affectionate? I think I'm still doing things right. This is so frustrating!!!<P>Wait! I am doing things different! In my happiness and knowledge of the work I must do to keep this alive, I have forgotten the work it took to get me here. The work on my knees, I have become complacent. Happy to be here, where I am. Not striving for a closer walk. I have not prayed like I did before she came back. Before I would pray at odd times during the day and every night regardless. Now I find myself where I should be perhaps once every other day. And again I see things slipping.<P>SHA, perhaps you are as I and have become complacent in our standing with God. I don't mean doing anything wrong, but our lives with God must be constantly seeking. Constantly wanting more of him. In doing this he rewards us with the gifts around us. Peace of mind, well being, family, friends, happiness in general. He lets us feel the sadness, depression, loss, enemies, and all hurtful things to keep us diligent in our journey.<P>Keep the faith my brother. Find peace in knowing that God has never tried a person such as you and that person stay true and Him not reward them greatly.<P>Do not worry about your W, right now it appears that God is working on you. He will get to her in His good time. Till then I will pray for your strength and peace of mind. That God will give your heart the rest it deserves. God bless you SHA.<P>------------------<BR>1Co:2:4: And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:<BR>1Co:2:5: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

SHA --<P>can't say much here. Got to go to a meeting. I'll post later, but know this:<P>We're here for each other. I'm going through a similar "valley", and so are many of us. Try to keep your head above the muck, take a deep breath, go find a distraction -- whatever. But, don't give up yet!<P>Chin up!<P>--keystone

'cuse me .... hey, nlitned .... how do you get a woman to leave her own house? Call the cops?<P>What if she says that nothing's going on with the OM, that he's a friend and that SHA has no right to throw her out of the house for having a friend?<P>Hello?<P>She's not gonna go anywhere cazu she's comfortable.

Hey SHA,<P>Been there, am there, done that, living that! I totally understand, and the only thing I can say is that last night was the Harvest Moon, so maybe we're all a bit whack-a-doodled!! <P>I am so sorry for your pain! Fetal position is a position I know well... just can't do it under the desk... gotta hold on... boy, do I understand that one!<P>Just wanted you to know I care!!<P>------------------<BR>Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss it you are among the stars!!

SHA,<P>SIGH!!!! There is definitely a crazy lunar influence right now that is taking it's toll on even the most stalwart of souls!<P>I believe, as the others have already pointed out that it is still the OM influence. This withdrawal and these set-backs DO wear a soul WEARY now, don't they!?!<P>You are right where I was several weeks back. My H had come home, but foolish him thinking we could make it while he refused to give up on his OW! It just AIN'T going to happen. But, your W has to come to terms with that. She can't be pining away for the OM and working on your marriage at the same time. The effects of one has to cancel the effects of the other - hence STALEMATE!<P>You are tired and weary, friend. I know I am doing PlanB for me. Also, I think it is the only hope (last resort) for my H ever realizing what I meant to him and wanting to come back and do this "right". If he doesn't, he doesn't and I can't make him.<P>You deserve ALOT MORE than you have been giving. Spend a little time these next few days and/or weeks and reflect on what it would mean to you if your W was no longer a part of your life. I think you, like the rest of us, are so intent on saving your marriage, you are letting it consume you. You need some space and air to breathe.<P>Give yourself some time to think about your life and what you want in the long run. I am trying to do this, too. I have found an answer - I want a loving monogamous relationship with someone who loves me on the same level that I love him. Now, I REALLY want that "someone" to be my H. I love him dearly. But, if he chooses a life without me, do I believe there is no one else in this world?? No, there will be another in time for me if my H doesn't want me. Do you believe there will be a life and a love for SHA if things don't work out with the wife you dearly love??<P>I am not advocating you to give up - only you know what you can do and can not do. But, you have to also believe that if the things out of your control go a way you don't want them to, SHA will survive, will find love and will be happy again.<P>Is it time for PlanB???<P>Roll Me Away

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Time will tell if her love for me returns AND if my love for her returns to the level that I feel is necessary to continue the marriage.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Why do so many people think, "love just happens." Did any of you betrayers (honestly now) fall madly in love with the OP BEFORE you started doing things together? Did any of us fall in love with our spouses BEFORE we started dating or doing things together? We may have been attracted to them, but that does not equal love.<P>You MUST do things too nurture the love & give it something to grow on.<P>Maya, <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I don't initiate anything, just give what is asked of me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Guess what? Love ain't gonna jump up & bite you in the a$$!<P>Can't have children by "thinking" about having them. Gotta take action to make it happen. Why should love be any different?<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

Well, Chris, you gotta WANT to have kids, huh?<BR>

Maya,<P>Yep, he's just a friend, and i'm the tooth fairy. <P>Seriously, i did not mean to imply you do something physical or even intimidating for that matter. It's something that's discussed between two adults each seeking a resolution to the problem. If one party left the marriage via an affair and continues contact w/the OP while making no effort at reconciliation, then separation becomes an option after a period of time. That's all i meant to say. <BR>

Oh .... sorry about that. So I'm a bit on edge today. (nothing new there, huh?)<P>I just don't understand how one spouse can kick out another spouse if they don't wanna go, ya know?<P>I realize that one will leave if they want a separation, but in my case, my H won't divorce me, and if I can tolerate the situation at home---just exist---but he decides that I'm not trying and wants me to leave .... there's no way he can get me to, correct? <P>Like it even matters anyway. <P>SHA, sorry to step all over your post.<p>[This message has been edited by Maya (edited November 23, 1999).]

SHA,<BR>Hang in there my friend. I know it hurts a great deal particularly when they start to draw away after getting close again. My W back in March had gotten really close. We went to a Family Life marriage conference and she was being bubbly and all those wonderful things. I knew she still wasn't giving me all of herself but I was elated to get what I had gotten. Then about 2 weeks later she became more distant. As I write this I think I know what triggered it: my family was coing to town and we have gone to see my family more than her family. I did not do this intentionally because it was what my father did to my mother; so it is a sensitive issue with me. I can only guess that it caused her to be down. Her family can do no wrong though she chose to run away from her family because they didn't treat her with the love she feels she deserves. I am almost positive that is why I have never been able to get inside her inner shell. I have been close but have never gotten in in 14 years.<P>Hang in there. I know you can make it. I have been going for 6 years now and through 8 affairs. She still is in number 8 even though she wants to call it a friendship.<P>I am praying for you.<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

SHA<BR>Talk to us!!!<BR>Are you there?<BR>We really care you know.<BR>NB was right - it seems one can always tell the full moon is here. It seems to intensify feelings.

To all my dear friends, I am overwhelmed at your responses. I thank you for your compassion towards me.<P>Lostva - thank you for your comments. Sometimes I wonder if I'm an inspiration or not. <P>Sheba - OK, I'll crawl out from under the desk. It smells kinda funny under there anyway. thank you so much for the hugs they mean so much.<P>NSR - Thank you for the references. One thing I have realized is that no matter what prodding I do, she (the betrayer) has to be the one to let go. She isn't ready to do that yet. She honestly believes she can maintain just a friendship with this guy. As many of the other women have eluded to, this is one of the key ingredients that made the affair so enticing - the friendship aspect. I will touch on Plan B later in this post.<P>Sweetpea - I know we start recovery over each time - she just doesn't see it and as I stated she seems content. <P>Maya - Well what can I say to you? I jumped down your throat last week about the way you feel towards your marriage. I suppose I was lashing out at you with things I wanted to say to my wife. I have always thought that you two share similar feelings in this regard. You, however, have removed the OM from the formula - so God bless you for that. Maybe she is trying to wear me down. She's doing a good job. The primary thing that confuses me is the long term talks we have. She wants to go to europe with me this summer and is looking forward to going. She wants us to move into a nicer house and we have actually started looking together. There's the paradox in this whole thing. I guess I want to say I'm sorry for jumping on your case last week. I continue to learn each day as to the destruction infidelity can do.<P>Apollo13 - I've started reading some of your posts. You are on the other side of the fence completely from me, in fact, I suppose you are some what like my W's OM. He's married too and I'm not sure his wife even knows what he did. My wife has always been an incredibly strong lady. Able to overcome huge obstacles. But this, she's addicted and she doesn't see the hurt it causes.<P>Wasstubborn - Thank you. I need to reestablish my old friendships. I have basically forsaken everyone in trying to win my wife back. I also need to do something for myself again. <P>Nlitend - Hey buddy, gosh I haven't heard from you in a while. Thanks for posting to me. I'm going to touch on Plan B later in this post since so many asked the same question. As far as depression goes, I think you are right. I have stepped up on my St John's Wort dosage, but I feel that isn't going to be enough. <P>Paul Moyers - Your post hit me hard. You are so right. Why is it my prayer time wanes when things go well. I think God still is working something in me I wish I knew what. Why can't I be happier in my marriage? Gosh, a year ago I would be overjoyed to be to this point. Paul, I lean on "give and it will be given unto you…" but it's just not coming from my wife. Maybe I'm missing out on where it is coming from - I don't know. <P>Keystone - thanks. I hesitated in posting at all because I know my situation is better than some, and that I should be thankful for what I have. <P>new_beginning - The moon? Maybe you're right. Add in PMS and some level of withdrawal and I guess you see where she is at. Thanks for caring. Dang this is so tough.<P>Roll Me Away - What a great post. You want what I want. I am weary and I guess we are in a stalemate. Why isn't she unhappy? <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>But, if he chooses a life without me, do I believe there is no one else in this world?? No, there will be another in time for me if my H doesn't want me. Do you believe there will be a life and a love for SHA if things don't work out with the wife you dearly love??<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I've thought about this. It still hurts so much to think that my wife betrayed our vows. That she gave herself to another. As for me, I just can't see myself holding any other woman in my arms. I can only imagine life without my wife and it comes up a lot. But, I never see myself with another. I just don't think I'm capable of marriage again. I'm willing to give this one everything I have, but if it doesn't work, then I would probably stay on my own. I believe Monogamy is a myth and I just couldn't go through this again.<P>To all - I have thought about plan B. Early on in this mess, my wife was ready to move out. We even found an apartment for her. But, she decided to stay for the kids. Our kids don't know what has happened. The oldest (a teenager) thought we were going to get a divorce about this time last year. We were able to squelch that concern. He didn't know why we were having troubles, he could only see there was a problem. Now, they think mommy and daddy are just really happy with one another. So, my dilemma is this; my wife would not move out. She would say "if you are that unhappy, then you go". And I can't leave my kids. I would be the bad guy. Either of us leaving would completely crush them. My wife is a wonderful mother. I think I'm a great father. Plan B would destroy that. We have one son in counseling now due to emotional problems he is having at night. <P>My wife refuses to talk about "us". It's all been said in her mind. She will listen to me but not say anything about herself. I meet a lot of her needs. She gets a friend to talk to every day. She gets loads of touching from me. I make a ton of money (I'm baffled by how much money I make sometimes) and so our lifestyle is pretty comfy. She basically wants for nothing. I'm a good father to our kids. She thinks we are doing OK. She thinks we are working on our marriage. I have even heard her give advice to one of her friends who was having problems and she basically told her to do some of the things I'm doing not what she's doing. <P>I don't know. If someone out there has done a Plan B with kids, I'm interested in how you did it. As I said before, if anyone would have to leave the house it would be me. I did tell my wife several months ago, that if I found out she was intimate with this guy or anyone again then that would be it for me. I would leave. I could not put up with that any more. <P>Thanks for help, your insight, and your hugs (they are about the only ones I get now adays).<P>SHA

SHA, my friend, I feel very, very bad for you and wish there was something I could say to cheer you up. I don't like the idea of taking anti-deps, but maybe, since your depression sounds pretty severe at times, you might want to consider this. Also, maybe, some talk therapy for yourself (Sorry, but forget offhand whether you and W are doing couples work? Doesn't sound like you are.)<P>You're aware, I know, of how similar our situations are. (Paul M's and nlitend's too.) Practically the only difference is that I don't know who the OM is and my W hasn't yet admitted that there is one, despite my repeated confrontations of her about this. I think the worst part is just as you describe it. That is, the lack of sexual interest that your W shows in you. It's exactly the same for me. So we both know how hurtful it feels for me to be holding my W in bed in the morning after waking up, and then, when I try and get a little excitement going, for her to say, "I've got to get up." (My W won't even kiss me on the lips any more for longer than 1-2 secs and even that's hard to come by!)<P>Know what? I've finally accepted that my W no longer has any sexual interest in me because she's given that part of herself completely to the OM. After our last couples session (no more, thank God!) where our counselor actually encouraged us to split, I think I've even accepted the idea that if she wants to go, I'm going to let her go. (I wanted to kill the guy - our couples counselor - and am refusing to go to a holiday party where he and his W are going to be.) W and I are staying together now basically for practical reasons as it sounds like you and your W are too (at least from her side). So I know how frustrating and hurtful it is for you, because my W still really turns me on even though it's no longer reciprocal. (I'd stay in her 24/7 if possible!)<P>This is the woe that is marriage, man. I keep from getting seriously depressed by focusing on work when I'm at work, and then focusing on my own stuff at home. It's the best I can tell you. Regards, blessings, and all my wishes for a turn for the better in your situation, my friend. (Also thanks for all the great words of support you've given me and many others on the forum.)<P>--Wex

SHA, the long-term talk shows ME that she's content to live in this comfortable situation. I wish I could get to THAT point. Evidently she doesn't HATE being around you ... or she'd not be interested in going to Europe. <P>Maybe she's just looking at this life as a meal ticket .... sorry to be so blunt. Perhaps she realizes that she cannot have that with the OM .... and doesn't want to live alone .... so she's "made peace" with her feelings.<P>As long as you're willing to live like this, she's not gonna rock the boat. Be prepared to NOT be on the receiving end of having YOUR needs met.<P>I know how she feels though. I'm right there too. But I'm willing to be alone. I want to be alone ....

SHA,<P>You asked why your W isn't unhappy? I think Sheba pegged it. She gets many of her needs met by you - family, financial, whatever else and others met by the OM -emotional, conversation, whatever else. She is as content as can be UNDER the circumstances. If it was an option, I will bet she would continue the affair and stay at home if you would let her. My H actually told me he would do this. HA! FAT CHANCE!!<P>I think you have to face this: you either have to accept this level of what she will give you (because she is comfortable exactly where she is, and she WON'T change that comfort zone)or you have to decide this is not acceptable to you and you want more.<P>I am doing PlanB because I want more. You have to balance what is important to you against what you will get with either option. Unfortunately, looks like he changing to want to actively work on your marriage is not one of the options available to you. This is between a rock and a hard place - I know - I am there. All you can do is evaluate your options aginst your values and then come up with the best answer for SHA, under the current circumstances.<P>You are SUCH a NICE GUY!!!!!! I would give alot to have a H who could love me the way you obviously love your W and value your family. No matter what happens, you will personally TRIUMPH. No one can endure all this and not become a better person in the end.....<P>Roll Me Away<P>

SHA:<P>I'm going to encourage you to give Steve Harley a call, and to start counseling with him. To the best of my recollections, you haven't really done any formal counseling yet, and with the "tons of money" at your disposal, the financial strain aspect won't be an issue.<P>It may indicate to your wife that you're really serious about wanting this marriage to be great. Talking to Steve will give you some help and insight---at least, it always did for me. And it may convince your wife to start participating in the counseling process, and that would be a tremendous help.<P>You should consider antidepressants at this point. No excuses---get to a doctor. Otherwise you won't be much good for yourself or your family.<P>You ask about Plan B with kids. I was in your situation (well, my wife's affair was "out" and continuing). After a good effort in Plan A, I had to leave for my own sake. If you get to the point of Plan B (please talk with Steve before you do this), you will probably have to prepare to leave. It'd be great if your wife offered to leave, but it's probably not going to happen.<P>In this situation, plan B was a complete nightmare for me. I couldn't fathom leaving my kids. I figured that I would never have them "daily" in my life ever again. How could anything be worse??? But I also knew that it was time, and that if I stayed, I would be trapped in a marriage that would quickly deteriorate. There are no guarantees when you go to Plan B; it's like stepping off of a cliff in pitch blackness. You may drop 6". You may drop 6 miles. You can't possibly know. But there are times where it's completely appropriate.<P>I don't think you're quite there yet. But I think you're in a situation similar to Maya. So I'll urge you to get treatment for depression, and to start counseling with Steve Harley. <P>Maybe if you'd both follow my "script", we could get to the happy ending part... <P>God bless.<P>

Why can't SHA leave AND take the kids with him?<P>

Hi SHA-<P>I'm not here a whole lot, but I always look forward to reading a post from you. You are a wonderful person and have meant a lot to us who need a kind word of wisdom once in a while.<P>I don't know how you can tear them away from eachother, but that's definitely the problem. I will pray for you and that your wife's heart changes and she sees the truth, that YOU are the one for her and not the dufus she's in la-la land with. I hope you can snap out of the depression soon, even tho I know how hard it is. God bless to you.<P><BR>Kathy

Maya who pissed on your paper again? I believe SHA wishes his marriage to work and he stated that his W is a wonderful mother. Are you a good mother? How would you feel if your H took your kids and left. SHA is in a really tough spot.<P>To have so much love, so much emotion, and have it pulled in so many directions. God, family, W, kids, one's self.<P>Only one of these will win out SHA, after He as everything else will fall in place. I just wish I knew what to say to help you get there. To help us all get there. We do tend to take for granted what God has given us when things are well just as we take our spouse for granted when they are with us. Only difference is that God will never leave us. We may leave Him, but He will never leave us.<P>In helping others SHA I think you help yourself. You may be your best help right now. I'll remember you in my prayers<P>------------------<BR>1Co:2:4: And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:<BR>1Co:2:5: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Paul, do you think we get to cuss in heaven?

LOL! No, I don't think so. Why do you ask?

Well, it's so funny to see you cussing AND quoting scriptures.

Are you attacking me personally? I did not realise I was cussing. I assume you are speaking of piss, again I did not know this was considered cussing. If I have offended you I apologize.

My apologies SHA for using your serious post for such a stupid and trivial reply.

Sir HA,<BR>now that sheba got you to come out from under the desk, wassy perscribed exercise ( and I agree with it completley ) and all the nice people in here gave you their support, there isn't much that I can add.<BR>But I just want to tell you that I'm thinking of you, and I'm sorry you're feeling down.<P>Well, maybe I can say something else after all <BR>A couple of weeks ago it was "her" birthday. Now I have no reason to worry about that. Things are still great with us and he's even considering looking for another job. But I suddenly felt pretty depressed, and when I did, it seemed that everything was going wrong. It felt like he was distant again, it felt like he was avoiding sex, it felt like ...I don't know how it felt. It wasn't real though, or at least not in that way ( yes he was having a rough time at work, yes he was quite tired and would fall asleep even before getting to bed , but it had nothing to do with her , neither was or marriage shaky again. AS I pushed myself off the depression train, thing were still looking as good as they have been lately.<BR>SO do things that you enjoy - try to include her if she wants - , exercise, and chek with the doctor for the depression thing. It might help.<P>A big hug<P>Kat<P>------------------<BR>Each and everyone of us is deserving of a kind word, a gentle thought, and the gift of understanding.

Uggghhhhh, what a day. Shades of six months ago dance through my head. The knotted stomach, the weight on your shoulders feeling, the heaviness in your chest where it seems hard to breath - INFIDELITY SUCKS!!!! Sorry.<P>Professorg - How do you do it? Eight affairs??? You are a rock of patience. I suppose one year isn't too long then. I don't know - it sure is tough sometimes. Thanks for the encouragement.<P>Maya - when are you going to tell me how you really feel! I've considered what you have said. No she doesn't hate me. A year ago she did - big time. I was able to over come that. But, we have hit a plateau. I think she has made peace with her self - I'm just surprised she is willing to live like this. She was telling me about a time she was out with her friends and they were all ragging on their husbands or boy friends. I asked her what she said about me - she said "what can I say - you're practically perfect. I told them that you sometimes cook my steak a little more than I like it." Yeah, maybe I am a meal ticket or just a cook. One more quote by her "I know I'm self absorbed right now, I just don't know how to break out of it." Don't know what to do with that one.<P>Roll Me Away - When I read your post I thought - of course I want more; who doesn't? I have to change something. I think I have been able to restore friendship but I am falling short in regards to intimacy. Yeah, I'm a nice guy - but we all know where nice guys finish. Thanks for the compliment. Believe it or not, I do like myself now more than last year. I am finding my strengths and I know where I am weak. I continue to cherish her because I don't want to live with regrets anymore. <P>Wexwill - hey buddy. Thanks for posting, I hadn't seen you post in a while and was wondering how you were doing. I have hesitated in taking the big anti-deps. Unfortunately I turned to alcohol to take the edge off. I never drank prior to this mess. I don't get blasted - just a beer or a glass a wine at night. It helps. My W won't go to any counseling - we're doing fine in her eyes. I certainly am in the same boat as you in regards to how I feel towards my wife. I got a chuckle out of your "I'd stay in her 24/7 if possible". I just got this image of actually trying to live like that - it would be fun to see how long one could go. Anyway, I am really sorry to hear things aren't going well for you either. And to top it off, your W has yet to confess - how frustrating for you. This can't be the plan for marriage Wex. <P>K - I am very happy that you posted. Your posts, as usual, ooze wisdom. I guess I set my self up with that "tons of money" quote. It's all relative you know - maybe it's a mere "load" of money to you or perhaps a small pile. Anyway, you're right of course. I have hesitated to go to counseling because I didn't want to go alone. I thought my wife and I should go as a couple since this is a couple's issue. As far as the anti-deps go, I suppose I have shied away form the heavy stuff because I thought I could handle this and anti-dps would prove to me that I couldn't. You are right though - I need to get something more than St John's Wort. How old were your kids when you went to Plan B and what was their reaction to you leaving? I am more afraid on the affect on them than my wife. I can just picture the whole scenario and it doesn't look good. Daddy would definitely be the bad guy. Thanks Dr. K, I here by promise to get help and stiff drugs.<P>Hurt Bad - Thank you for the kind words. I read your post about 20 times because it was so nice. Thank you for the encouragement.<P>Paul Moyers - I covet your prayers - thank you. And don't worry about what you say in any of my posts, everyone is one edge here.<P>Kat - Gosh, I have seen you post in a while either - maybe I was under the desk too long. Thanks for the kind words. I'm trying hard to live each day as it comes without getting bent out of shape with the small stuff. It just these nagging and prolonged periods of being down and that make me question everything. Thank you for the support.<P>SHA

SHA:<P>My kids were 7 and 3 when I left. They were both very upset. My son (the 7 year old) painted me a picture that said "Daddy don't leave". I have it here at work tucked away, to remind me to suck it up should I ever be feeling sorry for myself.<P>I'll tell you that after I left, I spent more quality time with my kids than I had been able to prior. Hey---no household responsibilities to eat up Dad's time. We spent weekends together, and at least 1 weeknight/week. And they looked forward to that time, and in general, there were no problems.<P>On the other hand, my son was very upset with my wife about me leaving. And he took it out on her in not-so-subtle ways. Although I've never discussed the affair with him, I think he had a sense for what was going on (he knows that I don't like the OM). He had trouble dealing with the separation, and my wife was the focal point of the anger. A Plan B side-effect---but it does help put reality back into the situation.<P>I'm glad you're listening. Get the drugs---it's not an admission that you can't handle it. I went on them sooner rather than later---my doctor told me that I was handling things well, but if I was going to be in this for the long haul, that I should probably get started on meds. And please start talking to Steve Harley---he'll be able to help you plan a course of action for this next phase. I trusted him with my marriage, and I was very glad that I did.

Maya, that reminds me of a country song (doesn't everything?).<P>There ain't no bars in heaven<BR>That's why we drink down here<P>...or something like that

SHA, <BR>So sorry to hear about your pain. I think maybe some sort of modified Plan B would be good for you. STart reducing the contact and love deposits to see if she notices.<P> I don't think you should ask her to go because she probably would go straight to om. Also someone said that she is content because both you and om are filling her needs, and I would have to agree about that.<P>Also maybe it is just a plateau, it all can't be a straight shot to the top. Hang in there! <P>You need to get her to discuss things, but I don't know how to tell you to get her to do it.<P>As for the anti-deps, don't be too proud. I started on them as I am losing my patience and am short with the kids. So with the holiday pressure coming , I decided to give my dr a call. <P>She gave me 6 weeks worth of free samples of celexa. It supposedly has very low percentages of side effects. I don't know if this will help me control my anger and bitterness towards my stbx or not. I juts don't want to take it out on the kids.<P>As for the praying, I found that everytime I tried to handle things on my own, it was very painful(like Sun) but when I prayed and asked the Lords help, thing went smoothly(?) like Sat when we told the kids were are divorcing.<P><BR>Hang In there SHA, you have been an imspiration to a lot of us.<P>GOD Bless

SHA, I don't post much, but have been so uplifted from your advice. You are truly an inspiration to many here.<P>And at the risk of being put down, I feel as if Maya's responses are completely inappropriate. Some need to realize what they have. And some also need to realize how to be kinder to those who are hurting so intensely. Maya seems to put everyone down here, and I'm amazed there is no response.

Huh, Isaac?<P>I'd say Maya was maybe a little cynical in her assessment of SHA's W. But putting everyone here down? Maybe no one's commented on it 'cause she hasn't.<P>The first 'pissy' comment about anyone HERE came from Paul--directed AT Maya. <BR>

Doug, I don't mean to be rude at all here. But it's my assessment. And why is it that you only post where Maya is concerned? I'm not trying to be confrontational here, but I only see you when Maya is mentioned. I honestly am not trying to cause trouble or problems, but just being honest. Or is honesty a problem here?

No problem at all, 'D'.

SHA,<P>Man the more I listen to you the more it sounds like what I have going on. I too think my wife uses me for certain parts of our marriage. She has no worries about money or any of the pressure that many people have. In fact maybe she has things too good.<P>Like you I have gotten tired of asking and getting rejected for sex. That has been a joke for the last year. I too have read more books talked to more counselers then anyone. She is still in couseling with me, which is different then your wife.<P>She like your wife has had an EA that she is now getting over. I thought we where on the right track 4 weeks ago. But like you she has seemed to go back more then anything. I am sure some of it is withdrawel from OM. Says I am a good person and sees the improvements in me. But can get that connection. I wish I had a magic pill for all of us. I read all these posts and it seems that some people are able to snap out of their feelings or ralley them if you will.<P>Hang tough SHA. I am trying and some days I really don't care what she does. I like you can get very upset and the the whole thought of marrying again given our kids. I guess in someways we need to be more selfish with want we want with life. I know I have not given 110% yet. When I know I have done that for an extened period of time. Then I will know it is time to go to plan B. Sounds like you have been at it for sometime. Maybe it is time to make a move for yourself. I know that my wife keeps bringing up how bad I was and puts me on the defensive. Take care dude and don't think that you are a bad person.<P><BR>

hi sha, i am so sorry to read of your troubles today. I know I am late, but puter does not always cooperate when I post. Now will copy before I send so I can quit retyping? Thanks sam-mi.<BR>Maybe your wife is in a holding pattern...sort of afraid to take a step in any direction? I will have to disagree with whoever thought she was comfortable where she is in the marriage. No healthy person can feel good sitting on a fence. The slivers gt in your butt after awile, and something has to be done about the festering mess. She is unsure how to proceed...lost but not trusting enough to follow your lead? Maybe she is realizing that she has made some bad decisions in the past and she does not trust herself anymore? Why is she not in counseling? <BR>If you can call Steve, it is a great idea. He has helped so many here. One call to him might prove better than months in therapy with another? <BR>All I can send you are hugs and prayers. <BR>(((sha)))

SHA, <P>Please, please tell us how it's going now... I so understand that fetal position...<P>Let us know!!!<P>~Sheryl<P>------------------<BR>Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss it you are among the stars!!

SHA,<BR>I have done it only by the grace of God. If it were not for Him comforting me at those low points I would not be with her. He sent me here to be helped by everyone here. He is a might great God. I am nothing without Him. I take none of the credit; it was Him directing my steps. To God be all teh glory, honor, and praise.<P>I pray a lot and read His word so that He can comfort me. I have become quite knowledgeable about what is in His word but haven't quite memorized where to find those comforting scriptures that get me over the lows that I go through. I have been reading the Bible through in a year. She purchased the My Utmost for His Highest devotional Bible that I have been reading. I see her as His gift. I have grown much closer to Him because of her. I will always cherish her whether she cherishes me or not.<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

Sir,<BR> Even though you may feel as if the relationship with your wife is cold, distant and hopeless, it really isn't. I want you to do something that, at first, may seem asinine or ridiculous to you; nevertheless, I know that your wife will respond favorably. First, take all of your focus off of yourself. You see, your wife is a woman, and women are responders. If you'll just ponder for a while about all of the things you did in order to win your wife before you were married to her. Your wife desires the man that wooed her; she desires the man that won her over by being romantic.<BR>Remember what is was like before you married her: you couldn't wait to just hear her voice on the telephone, you would write love letters and poetry to her, you would place all of your needs secondarily to hers because she was your greatest gift and treasure.<BR> Sir, in summary, what I am saying is to do the things which won the love of your wife in the first place: leave love notes in places only she will discover, get reservations at an extravagant hotel without her knowing-get someone to watch the kids for the weekend and surprise her with it. Don't be afraid to look foolish; don't think about your needs; be creative; and last but certainly not least-make your wife feel extraordinarily special, a queen, your true love with whom you'd marry all over again.

WOW SHA - look at this thread.....<P>Four pages in twelve hours....see how much we all love you!!!!!<P>How you feeling now? Any better.....<P>I agree with K about calling Dr H - it's time for some insight and it's not really like "going" yourself!!! Consider it a head start!!!<P>Forget Plan B - don't think you are ready for that nor do you need to put yourself through that added hell. I think you're like me in that regard!!<P>I do have one thing that stuck in my craw though. I get upset when I hear that a person who wants their family and marriage is the one who might leave the house. I'm sorry but to me that is just plain wrong, wrong, wrong!!!!!<P>Whoever wants out of the marriage and is acting to the detriment of it and the family should be the one to leave. What are we teaching ourselves and the children when the one who wants "home" leaves it? This makes absolutely no sense to me.....<P>Think about it....the kids see Mom (who was the unhappy one showing little interest in you and them) staying with them and YOU going? Then what? They get to watch Mom see others or something and meanwhile their Dad is not their main foothold on normalcy anymore...<P>Think long and hard on that one SHA - if it's even a serious option for you - which I hope it isn't.<P>Things are in a lull right now, how about concentrating on the holidays - can you muster up some cheer by being with the kids (and your wife also - but the main focus on the kids) do fun stuff with and for them for awhile instead of her.....<P>What do you think? OH, and throw a Harley Appointment in there too!!!<P>LOVE YA, Buddy!!!<P>BIG HUGS,<P>Sheba

You crack me up, SHA. I THOUGHT you wanted to know how your wife MIGHT be feeling inside her head right now. I didn't say THAT'S precisely what she's feeling, but was trying to give you another slant on things.<P>I apologize profusely for giving you an opinion. Next time I'll certainly sugarcoat it with something trivial like "Oh it will pass ... hang tough."<P>Do you want betrayer's honest thoughts or do you just want sympathy? I WAS TRYING TO HELP!<P>Isaac, obviously you've never heard of the Doug and Maya show. You're probably too young.<P>And, Paul, if I wasn't just so sick of all this crap, I'd laugh you off.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Maya (edited November 24, 1999).]

Maya: Why are you still here?

To irritate the crap out of you.<P>Misery loves company.<p>[This message has been edited by Maya (edited November 24, 1999).]

SHA,<P>Terrible feeling huh,,,when you feel as though you're fighting a losing battle,, batting your head against a brick wall. I've been there, I know. <P>And when there are so many people on this forum that would give anything to have their spouse at home, it also feels almost ungrateful to be complaining about lack of feelings or intimacy. But it still hurts. You still feel that wall, that barrier and feel helpless to break it down. <P>SHA, I agree with those previous replies that have suggested seeing a doctor for meds. I also strongly suggest counseling, even if it means going alone. I do. I went for counseling because I was having problems with ME. With my inability to handle the circumstances. Yes, it would have been nice to have him go with me but he didn't choose to go. And I was the one with the hurt, the pain, the anger. I had to help ME. And you need to help SHA. <P>Just as a little encouragement, we are 2 months into recovery after the affair. I didn't get that close feeling either, after we recommitted. I missed those endearing names that are usually spoken so spontaneously, "Hon, Sweetheart, Baby," but they returned with time. <P>SHA, do not move out. If your intent is to rebuild, it's so much harder if you're not together. And your kids need their dad. Go to the doctor and get some meds. Get to a counselor. I've heard super things about Harley. At least try it!! I'm thinking about you SHA, and hoping for the best!!

K - Your advice is priceless; thank you. One final question for you. What advantages are there in counseling with Steve over a local therapist? I found that my medical insurance will cover counseling for someone in town here not through the phone. Phone counseling sounds odd to me, aren't there advantages to speaking with someone in person? <P>RWD - Thanks for the advice. I do think something needs to change. I'm not sure what right now. I suppose I should wait until I seek counsel and have a clear head before I jump to conclusions. I hear you on getting to not take it out on the kids. We have a lot of kids, silence is rare fighting and arguing between them seems to be a way of life sometimes and I for one can lose it. So, you're right I am going to get meds.<P>Isaac - Thanks for the encouragement. I don't mind Maya's comments. She has given me much insight into the mind of a betraying wife. For that I am grateful. As far as the delivery of the comments, again my skin is thick, I have lots of kids, I going through this hell, it takes a lot to get my feathers ruffled.<P>Zip - It sounds like we do have much in common. My wife has told me she wants that connection again, but she doesn't know how to get it. The problem is I don't see her trying all that hard to get it. Maybe my Taker is rearing it's ugly head - I don't know. I certainly envy you folks who are going to counseling together. My wife is very prideful and she thinks she can handle all this on her own. Maybe if I start going, she will join me. I have given 110% for quite some time. I cherish her more than any woman could ever want I think. It has helped us to a certain degree, but now I know what a great marriage is and I don't want to settle for less. Thanks for your encouragement.<P>Cl - I found your thoughts about my wife not being happy interesting. She seems content on the outside, but I don't know what is going on deep inside her head. I would have to agree with you though, I wouldn't be happy. She isn't in counseling basically because of pride. She is very strong willed (stubborn) and thinks she can handle this on her own. I have asked her to go with me and she doesn't see the need. Thank you for the hugs and prayers.<P>new_beginning - I'm hanging in there for now. This wave of depression seemed to have come from nowhere and it hit hard. <P>Professorg - Rob you are certainly a man of integrity. My faith has certainly been tested through this ordeal. <P>Littlegiant - Through my years of marriage, I committed the cardinal sin of taking my wife for granted. Infidelity never crossed my mind. My wife and I were bonded together for life. Nothing could come between us. We made a vow to one another right? Those were my thoughts a little more than a year ago, those were the thoughts and actions of a very foolish man. Infidelity is no respector of any marriage - all are at risk. Ten months ago, I did take all focus off of me. I have stepped way beyond the things I originally did to court my wife. You can't imagine how much I cherish her now - everyday without exception. Beyond the obvious things, I notice when her make up is running low and buy her more. I notice when her tampons are running low and buy her more. I make sure her car is filled with gas and running well. I leave her love notes - every day. She asked me to not send her so many flowers. I write her love letters. I give her lots of non-sexual touch. I listen when we talk and respond when she asks for something. I bring her coffee every morning as she is showering. I notice the smallest things she does and compliment her. I make her wonderful meals. I take to her very special places for dinner, concerts, and places we can just go and talk. I make her feel very special. The list of things I do goes on and on. More importantly I found how to talk to her again and we talk about everything except our problems. All of these things have helped us become friends again. And yet, she still finds some level of comfort in talking to the OM occasionally. I can't seem to break that bond - and it hurts. I'm trying. Winning her back is more than just doing things - that's what I'm trying to figure out.<P>Sheba - Warrior gal, my good friend. I do feel loved by all of you. I wish there was something I could do to show my appreciation to everyone. I'm still down, but not so bad that I want to crawl under my desk. I'm going to swallow my pride and see my about meds and try counseling with someone. I wonder if my counselor will advise me to move where you are? I have thought about Plan B and I just don't know. Right now I see it only as causing more damage but, I won't do that without proper counsel. Something has to change though, I'm just not sure what. My wife is a wonderful mother. I could not ask for anyone better for them. Through this mess, she has done quite well in keeping sane with them and for the most part the younger ones have no idea there was or is a problem. The older ones certainly suspected something was wrong and confronted both of us separately. I think their fears have diminished about us divorcing. I seem to be the only one unhappy right now. This holiday season has to be better than last year's - that was a disaster. Thank you Sheba. <P>Maya - Did I miss something here? I DO appreciate your help. Keep in mind I'm unstable right now (I'm sure you know the feeling). When did I say I wanted anything sugarcoated? I'm a between the eyes kind of guy. Anytime I hear you say "oh, this too shall pass" I'll know your off your meds. What the heck did I say the got your knickers in a twist? BTW, I am trying to HELP you too! <P>Nerlycrzy - Yes, I do feel guilty about posting this and I hesitated for awhile because I know many here would love to be in my shoes. Yes, my wife is home. Yes, we do talk and touch and date and on the surface we are doing great. But, on the inside I am struggling with my sanity. Unconditional love goes for so long before it turns conditional. Marriage is conditional love anyway isn't it? Meeting one another's needs. Being there for one another. It's been so one sided for so long. I need more than crumbs to survive. I honestly don't require much. I'm a very low maintenance guy. I can give way beyond what I get because I do find joy in giving. The verdict is in, I am calling the doc today for meds. I am trying to decide on Harley or a local face to face counselor. Haven't made that decision yet. I have started calling my wife a new pet name that she seems to like. I don't get anything back - maybe in time. Thank you so much for posting to me. <P>SHA<p>[This message has been edited by Sir Hurts Alot (edited November 24, 1999).]

I'm just so sorry, SHA, if I was too blunt and unfeeling. I mean to help, but I'm alittle ... er .... um ... unbalanced I guess.<P>I do wish you only the best.

SHA:<P>The main advantage of Steve is that he's the BEST (IMO). I did counseling with two local therapists (a PhD and an MD) who were "highly recommended", and neither of them were worth a tenth of Steve. <P>So, ignoring that---I found the phone counseling more convenient and more effective than office counseling. I had some of the same reservations that you probably have---there's no way for Steve to read body language, you really don't "know" who's at the end of the phone...<P>The reasons I found working with Steve more effective is that we could quickly focus on the behavioral aspects of the situation, without distractions (like looking at office furnishings, diplomas on the wall...). As we worked together, I'd prepare a list of items to go over, and we'd go down that list an item at a time. I also find Steve an extremely effective communicator---he doesn't force feed you answers, but leads you to come up with them yourself. He also knows the MB material inside and out. You will have homework to do---it helps you learn the process, and it also provides you with the feeling that you're doing something positive with your time. He's also a great coach and motivator---and that's one area I think you'd benefit the most from right now.<P>In terms of convenience, he's open nearly 24 hrs/day! His office hours do range from 8 or 9 am to 10 pm. You don't drive anywhere---I did the majority of my counseling from my office at work. Once you get used to the idea of phone counseling, the conveniences really become obvious. And his price was very reasonable---he was $60/session when I started (I think it's $75/session now). My local MD was $200/session, and my PhD was $125/session for comparisons. And although my health care would cover it, the doctor had to "report back" to my employer, so I opted to pay for everything out-of-pocket to avoid any potential "stigma" associated with the visits (I'm not really sure how necessary that was).<P>I'd really encourage you to give Steve a call, mainly because he is THE BEST. Try him for a few sessions, and if you don't think so, you'll only be out a couple hundred.

One other huge advantage in the phone counseling, SHA...<P>You'd like to get your wife involved, right?? But there's a big barrier for her to get in the car with you and go to an office somewhere to talk with a stranger.<P>It's not such a big barrier to throw the phone to her and ask her if she'd give some feedback for Steve... And that does work (trust me...).

K - This has been on my mind for some time now - Are you Steve? Well, you never know. Thanks for the input. I didn't know that local therapist had to report back to my employer - that is something to consider. I suppose the idea of phone counseling just sounds odd to me. You know - is he watching the football game in his underware while he's talking to me? I guess there isn't any harm in trying it out. <P>Does he go back and review this forum for insight into my problem or do you basically start from scratch? Sorry to keep bugging you about this, but your input is so helpful.<P>SHA<p>[This message has been edited by Sir Hurts Alot (edited November 24, 1999).]

LOL!!!! Steve in his underware yelling "touchdown" as I pour my heart out to him.<P>Great visual!!!!!!!<P>Nope, I'm not Steve. As a matter of fact, when I first started with Steve, I could get through to him pretty easy. I think he's much busier now, and he certainly doesn't need additional advertising. But I am a huge fan of his, and I think you would do very well with him (assuming he doesn't yell "touchdown" during a session...) <P>

As regards to Steve with the forum: he does read here occasionally, but with his schedule, he doesn't have much time for it.<P>I would assume that you would start from scratch, but you're in the enviable situation of understanding a lot of the MB principles, so you'll be able to start to apply them in "new ways" that you may not have thought of. I don't think it would take you long to start seeing positive results.

K - THANK YOU SO MUCH

Hey, anything I can do to get you out from under that desk...<P>You're welcome, too. Have a happy Thanksgiving day.

SHA,<BR>How are you feeling today? I know I'm kinda late joining in here but I wanted to let you know I care.<P>You've gotten lots of good advice here. I'd like to throw in my vote for counseling. My H wouldn't agree to see anyone, so I went alone. My focus was to learn how to deal with my own feelings. I recognized early that I can't control his, so I had to control mine. I don't know if it actually helped our marriage at all, but it sure kept me from driving off a bridge (which I actually considered doing!)<P>My second comment has to do with you W. What the H### is wrong with her!! SHA, I did Plan A for awhile when I first discovered my H's "fling". I very quickly grew tired of being the one doing all the work. I don't have the patience and stamina that you do! I decided that I needed to take care of me and forget about trying to keep hime happy. I guess I started a modified Plan B. I renewed friendships that I had let go. I started going out with the girls (something I have never done!). We still lived together and talked, but my life did not revolve around him anymore and he didn't like it. He let it go on for a little while, then he started doing all the things you are doing now. He brings me my coffee while I'm in the shower, sends me flowers, makes arrangements to take me places he knows I enjoy.<P>I guess what I'm trying to say in my long winded way is that it's time to stop focusing on your wife and start taking care of you. Focus your life on your kids and your friends. I know people have criticized Maya for being so blunt, but I tend to agree with her. Why should your wife change when she is getting everything she could possibly want right now. She has you and him. Continue to be civil and loving, but give her a taste of what life will be like without you! <P>Take care of you!! And stay out from under that desk...those dust bunnies can be vicious!<BR>

Sha, I'm new here, but the list of things you do for your wife really struck me. Boy, it would be nice if my h was like that.<P>I don't want to offer any advice. Yet, I think as important as it is to meet each other's needs, it is this +. We are counseling with Jennifer Harley, you might want to consider a woman counselor so you can get a woman's perspective. When I looked into this 3 weeks ago (before I knew about the EA), I was surprised that my h chose Jenn because he wanted a woman. The lack of face to face has not been a problem, and the challenge of finding a local is really getting one who understands these principles. Jenn cowrote the book with her Dad "Surviving an Affair".

SHA.<P>Really seriously consider what K is suggesting about about counseling with Steve. As I said before, I have never tried the phone counseling but have been seeing my personal counselor for about 2 years. K is right about the counselors requirements of reporting back to the insurance company. Our counselor through our health insurance is allowed only "X" number of sessions per patient. If your situation requires more (and it always does), the counselor has to justify why. Now, how much of this is actually reported back to the company or accessible is debatable. We also have a $15 CO-PAY. Once a week, 4 times a month=$60. Hey, almost a phone call to Steve! K does bring up some really good points, no travel time, And YOUR WIFE IS RIGHT THERE to add anything she might feel inclined to add. <P>Come on SHA...make that call and let us know how it goes!!!<p>[This message has been edited by Nerlycrzy (edited November 24, 1999).]

SHA - A couple of other points. Firstly, I agree with K about using Steve instead of a local. You know from my posts what a real jerk our couples counselor turned out to be. My W basically used him to validate her point of view and he let himself be manipulated into doing this. Our sessions used to enrage and upset me nearly as much as W's ongoing affair. (I know why she doesn't confess - she knows she'd never hear the end of it from me and she's right. Plus she wants to continue it, which becomes a lot more difficult if you confess.) So, great - it does sound like you're going with Steve. One suggestion - get a speakerphone. That way you and your W can both "be there" together when Steve is on the line.<P>My second point has to do with alcohol vrs. meds. I think it's OK to drink some to take the edge off. (I didn't drink either till this mess came along and, basically, not much until after I saw W with OM. And the other night, I told my W that her cheating is WHY I'm drinking now. THAT sent her off to the other bed in a huff!) It does work. To tell the truth, I've tried meds too and have to say that, in comparison, I prefer alcohol! I think the key is to drink responsibly.<P>Haven't posted much for a while because it's been crunch time at work for the last couple of weeks and I've even been taking stuff home. Thank God this particular craziness is gone for a while. Hope to post a lot more in the next few weeks anyway. Regards and blessings,<P>--Wex

SHA,<BR>I truly believe that the OP has to be completely cut off from contact. There is absolutely nothing that can happen for you untill the OP is out of the picture. If my situation is anything like yours this is what you have to look forward to. My W works with the OM and she was not about to let him go. We stayed together the whole time with me trying everything in the book to make our marriage work. All I ended up doing is wearing out my welcome so to speak. I could never do the right thing, never said the right thing just kept losing her respect because I hung around trying at plan A. Now after 3.5 years of this I have lost my wife, and I split time with my son who would rather be with mom when he is with me. Plan A is all well and good for a time but I feel you can also lose more with plan A if you attempt it too long. You also have a tendancy to lose all self in that process also....... I did anyway.....<BR>Sorry for rambling, this has been a bad couple of days.....

Sir, just checking How are you feeling today?<P>I was fine untill completely by accident I bumped into the ow at lunch time. One of the schools where I work is right across from her street and I usually avoid it like crazy, but today I was in a hurry.... Didn't even see her untill I bumped into her ( to bad, had I seen it I could have prepared myself to step on her toes as well - just joking I wouldn't do that ). Anyway that depressed me for about fifteen minutes untill I caught the bus. I'm fine now. But for those fifteen minutes I kept thinking about you and really wanting a desk to crawl under .<P>I'll check again later<BR>Big hug<BR>Kat<P>------------------<BR>Each and everyone of us is deserving of a kind word, a gentle thought, and the gift of understanding.

I am new here, but I have learned a lot by listening to all of you folks. You don't need to hear this again, but I have the need to say it. The contact with OM is the problem. You sound like a nice guy doing all that you can. She needs to start living up to her end of the marriage. NO CONTACT WITH OM!!!

Betrayed - I'm feeling OK - I continue to be overwhelmed at the responses from everyone - If that can't cheer me up what can? All in all I'm still down and in need of something. I will get counseling that's a done deal. As for my wife; you asked a tough question and I don't know. I suppose she is suffering too. You seems to be stressed out a lot. Some days are good, some aren't. I don't know. I think your idea of a modified Plan B is probably in order. I'm not making any firm decisions while I'm in this mental state. Thank you for your words of encouragement. <P>Schizzo - Welcome. I haven't thought about calling Jenn. I didn't even know there was a Jenn Harley. I think I could talk to either a man or woman - it wouldn't matter to me. Maybe my wife would feel better talking with a woman if she ever decided on counseling. Gosh, now I'm getting overwhelmed with ideas on counselors. Thank you for your reply.<P>Nerlycrzy - Dr. K has all but made the phone call for me. I am still considering calling steve and now possibly Jenn. I will call someone. Your copay analogy was interesting. That certainly does lead me to calling. Thank you.<P>Wexwill - Well, the more stories I hear about counselors the more I lean toward calling the Harley's. You, Sheba, I'm sure several others have all had less than encouraging experiencing with the local shrinks. As for alcohol, I drink responsibility. Usually only one drink, never more than two. After two I get severe headaches so that's a built in deterrent for me. I have to try the meds at least to see what their effect is. Thanks Wex. I really hope things look up for you soon. I'm probably going to shy away from posting a little at least until I get out from under this dark cloud that is hanging over me. <P>Mkn - I know that contact with the OM is a problem. I have talked to my wife about it. It's a touchy subject and I'm dealing with an addiction. She is having a horrible time letting go. When it's brought up, I'm controlling, and not giving her space, and not letting her have friends, and on and on. She maintains that they are only "just friends" now. I don't know how that can be after what they have done. The contact is diminishing, I don't know if that's her way of letting go. I do have my self respect back. She doesn't walk all over me. Early on, you were right. She hated the way I begged and pleaded and smothered her. I give her space. I simply put her first when we are together. It's a thin line I guess. Thanks for the advice.<P>Kat1 - Don't think there's any room under my desk for anyone else you'll have to find your own desk..J I'm OK for now. Just worn out I guess and have come to grips with things I need to do to get to the next level - at least for me. You know, I may get to meet the OM here soon. There a holiday party we're invited to and he may be there. I wonder if he'll bring his wife? I hope I maintain sanity if that happens. Thanks for the post.<P>Wafflestoo - My wife tried to give up the OM over the summer. She did for a few months, but caved in around Sept. This is an addiction that is extremely tough to break. I'm trying to help her break the bond but she has to do it herself. In regards to her end of the marriage, I don't think she knows what her end is anymore. She knows she's not being a great wife right now and she doesn't like that part of herself. It's just so complicated.<P>SHA