<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> We are the proverbial odd couple, and in many cases have roll reversal. As the husband, my biggest emotional need is affection, and isn't even on my wife's list of top 5. Being that that is the first need addressed in HNHN and lesson 3, this is where we are.

My wife doesn't do well at showing affection and we are stalled. She won't come to this web site, or any other for help. I suggest a telephone counseling session and she said no. She says she just doesn't understand and doesn't know how to go about understanding. Trying to get her to answer the workbook questions was difficult. And we don't have completion yet.

She wants me to create a daily affection checklist for her to use. To me that sees past contrived,because part of my need is for her to initiate affection, instead of my asking for affection.

Am I off base here???

No one else has replied to you in 24 hours and I don't want you to feel ignored. What are her EN's and why is she unwilling to at least do the questionaire? Without knowing your full story, from both sides, it appears she is very selfish and self-centered. Was she a victim of rape or sexual abuse? Was she otherwise traumatized in the past? We need more info to really offer valid advice. Thanks and God bless!

Mojo,
I totally understand where you are right now. My H is not good at showing affection either and it is my #1 EN. You will find that most couples register on opposite ends of the EN scale. I have been doing Imago therapy it ties all your ENs to your childhood same with your spouses. When I first started i thought it was a bunch of crap but as I went through the exercises it all made sense. The book is Getting the Love You Want by Harville Hendrix very helpful to me. I shows you that no mtter who you are with be it your wife or girlfriend 10 years ago you subconsciencely looked for the same traits. Affection is learned not everyone knows how to do it. Hendrix suggests that you both make lists

the first list will be in the present...
complete the sentance as many ways as possible
I feel loved and cared about when you....
</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">fill my coffe cup when its empty</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">kiss me before you leave for work</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">listen to me when im upset</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> just a few examples, you get the idea

then you both make a list of the things of the past... complete the sentence as many ways as possible
I used to feel loved and cared about when you....
</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">wrote me love letters</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">held my hand as we walked</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">made love more often</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
then...complete this sentence as many ways as possible
I would like you to....
</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">rub my feet 3 times a week</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">sleep in the nude</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">buy me some jewelry</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
this is very simular to the EN questionaire but its a bit different too heres where its gets different
now take your 3 lists and combine them in to one big list and rank them 1 very important to 5 not so important and exchange lists. Look ovwer each others lists and put an X next to any item you are not willing to do at that time. All the remaining items should be conflict free. Starting tomorrow do atleast 2 of the nonconflicting behaviors each day for the next 2 months start with the ones that are the easiest and add more to your list as the occur to you. ALWAYS acknowledge a caring behavior done by your S. But remember these things are gifts, not obligations. Affection is a behavior not an instinct. Your S may have grown up in a "cold" (affection lacking) home like my H, she may have issues with being vunerable, was she sexually abused, she may be afraid that if she lets you in (or even worse in her mind) herself out that she will end up getting hurt. Also I would like you to know that I have recently learned that my H did show more affection than i thought he did it just wasnt the way I thought it should be. Ex. I wanted hugs and kisses he would sit next to me and put his hand on my leg. Both are showing affection but his definition is not the same as mine so maybe you can try to alter your thinking on it a bit too. Think of it as the words TO, TOO,and TWO they all sound the same but each has a different meaning try to see her TWO and she should try to see your TOO. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I just read a book by Spring called After the Affair..Healing the Pain and Rebuilding the Trust When a Partner Has Been Unfaithful and it too recommends making lists of things you would like your spouse to do for you and you for them...and actually leaving them around and checking off when things are done that are on the "list"...it gives the couple an idea of what each others wants/needs are and also can give positive feedback for the times they have done more affectionate things in your case and you have noticed it. I even think making the lists alone could be a good exercise in examining what you need and also what their needs are. Now if I could just get me WS to even read the book...

I have the exact same problems as you mojo. My wife just doesn't seem to care about me at all. I have tried and tried to be the perfect husband. I pay all of the bills (mine and hers, she stopped giving me money about 5 months ago, it cost me about 5000 a month to keep the ball rolling, and trust me, we do not have that extravagant of a life style. She even rubs the fact that I am having a hard time paying the bills in my face. I have $30,000 in credit card debt because of her. I do 90% of the laundry, I do all of the cooking, I have bought her lots and lots of jewelry, write her love letters one or two times a week, give her massages, buy her flowers once or twice a week, make her coffee every morning, take care of the children, etc. etc. etc.. But, all I get from her is "back off", I don't like flowers, I am not the affectionate type, I have a low sex drive,I don't want to read that book, , etc. etc.!! She works six days a week get about 40 hours, comes home from work around 4 pm with a bag from Wal-Mart everyday, talks on the phone,goes to sleeps til 9 or so, gets up talks on the phone, does her nails or something, goes back to bed by 10:30 gets up at 3 am leaves for work at 4 cycle starts all over again. Sundays (her day off) mostly consist of sleeping and watching T.V., talking on the phone. So many things here I could type here, I could be here typing for two days. Sorry if I am rambling. I am going crazy, I get so frustrated,I just can't believe my wife is so selfish. Her absolute refusal to meet my needs causes me to Love Bust big time'on average of once every 4 weeks or so, I don't want to do it, but it is like an avalanche when it comes out. She cares for and has conversation with everyone else in the world but me($500 in phone bills last month). I have provided for at least one of her family members for the past 2 1/2 years. First her father, then her brother. I even paid for schooling and trained her brother, for a career where he can make very good money. All for nothing. Everything was fine in my opinion, until June or July, she started sneaking intiment items lacy panties, etc. out of the house. I became suspicious, so I started snooping. That's when I found some inappropriate e-mails being exchanged between her and her boss. They said stuff like he really cares for her and doesn't want to hurt her in any way, that he really, really, really missed her while he was on vacation, and every letter ended with 'Love You'. I confronted her about them, she denied it all. I exploded and called her a "dirty F'ing whore" and threw the printed e-mails and the hidden panties at her. That's when in her opinion she turned into the victim and all of the sudden the last 8 years of our marriage where just pure hell for her. It's all my fault that we are in this situation according to her. We separated for 4 days (she stayed with a girl friend), I asked her to come back. She said she wouldn't do the e-mails anymore, she ended up just closing her yahoo and opening a hotmail account and doing it all over again, which I found out 3 days later. We separted for a month or so (stayed with the girlfriend again). I asked her come back to help with the kids while I worked a temp contract position, where I was only home enough time to sleep for about two months (I worked nights, so I never saw her). Work ended she stayed, been about a month since then. I stayed on the couch for a while, resolved that we can sleep in same bed, I just can't touch her. Counseling didn't work I quit going about a week ago. I went to an attorney, but, couldn't bring myself to do it. I don't love her, but, I do love the person I married 8 years ago. I did admit to her before we went to counseling (to clear my conscience, and maybe to get her to admit she was having an affair)that prior to our marriage, while I was stationed in California, I went to a swingers club and had sex with a couple of girls, like I said, we weren't married, we weren't even engaged, but, she was pregnant with my child. I know it was way wrong, If I could change the past I would, but, I can't. I have read "His needs, Her needs", "Men are from Mar, Women are from Venus". Nothing works. She still denies any foul play on her part, but did admit to caring for several other people a little beyond friendship. I haven't been able to find any absolute proof of an affair, I've tried testing for semen on her panties, but, have found no proof. But, I just don't trust her, and I am always suspicious. I am starting to think she is a lesbian. I am so confused, I don't know what to do. I am becoming so depressed, I can barely move sometimes, I pull my truck over on the way to work and just go to sleep. Just finding it hard to function lately. I have thoughts of suicide daily. I don't think I could actually kill myself though, just think about it. I don't know what to do anymore. I am on anti-depressants, but, they really don't seem to work. I told my wife of my depression, and she just doesn't believe it. She just seems like she sits around ignoring me, waiting for my next episode of Love Busting. I don't know what to do. I have scheduled an appointment with a different counselor for individual counseling, but, I know I will not be able to afford it. Sorry for the short story. I am open for any suggestions on what to do. Should I just move on and get a divorce, should I hang in there? I am going crazy! <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Tried2much, I don't know if you've tried posting on the infidelity board - even though you don't really have proof -you certainly have enough suspicion. If you [ost on the general guestions II section you will have a lot of response - that seems to be the hottest board.

I really feel for your situation. It seems you are the type of guy that any gal would want to be married to. The only thing to say is that she probably has at least one EN that you are not meeting. If you can figure out what that is and try really hard to meet that, you might see some changes, but it sounds like she has her mind made up not to work on or change anything. A marriage has to be a 50/50 partnership, not 100/0. In your case, I don't know how to swing things in your favor. Like I said, if you post on that different board, you might get more response of someone that is closer to your shoes than I am.

Felina

Maybe it's because you do so much that she resents you for it. Your situation with your W reminds me of a book I've just finished reading by Drs. Cloud and Townsend on Boundaries. In it there is an excerpt from their clients. Their son does nothing. The parents do everything including going to counselling for him. The doctor told them that it is they who have the problem. Their son is immature, irresponsible and happy. They, however, are mature, responsible and miserable. It was time that their son learned to have some problems.

I'd suggest you stop taking so much responsiblity and let her suffer somewhat. It seems as though she has no sense of boundaries, limits or responsibility. She doesn't have to. You do it all. It's time she had to. She resents you now. She'll probably hate you for setting limits on her behaviour. But, if you do it right and follow through, she should come around to be the woman you married again and love you for it.

Remember, you can't change their behaviour. You can change yours. I suggest you do 180s and see what happens.

<small>[ December 05, 2003, 08:32 AM: Message edited by: SAB ]</small>

I am kind of the same person you are talking about. My husband NEEDED the affection and admiration. What I see now as being so easy to give, I wouldn't! Ask me why! I have no idea! I don't know if I was trying to hurt him, or if I thought he didn't deserve it, who knows.

This man would do laundry, cook, clean, most things men don't, I appreciated it, just din't say it enough. He bought me the flowers, I did tell him I didn't like flowers, I don't like them to die. I appreciate the thought, but didn't say it.

My husband bought me anything I said I liked. Jewelry, furniture, vehicles, anything. To make me happy. I was. It was just thrown in my face anytime I was unhappy, that I wasn't appreciative of anything.

I am not a materialistic person, (husband is) . I did appreciate everyhting. I am just sorry I couldn't show it or convince my husband otherwise. He now wants out of marriage because he's tired of all the hurt he feels.

He came from an affecinate family, I didn't. Sorry excuse, but it doesn't come as naturally for me.

Since this has all happened (Oct. 03) The blinders have been lifted. It has taken this, a probable end to my marriage to realize I love my H so much. He is every womens dream! My friends tell me this. We are in a standstilll in our marriage, unable to move forward till we can get over hurt. Mainly his hurt. I forgive him and myself. I want to be a better wife. I want to help him.

I know this isn't an answer to your problem, but maybe your wife will see things more clearer when she sees what she is about to lose.

Don't put blame and accuse though. I didn't see it. I blamed him the whole time. I thought being here for him, taking care of the kids, doing laundry, cooking... I thought he could see my love through those, when he really needed to hear it.

I will pray for you, give it all to God and have faith, it is helping me!

Your Post I could have written!!

I am like whoa. I too have a great husband, he does all the things you say. But I don't know how to show affection, well I do know, but it's just hard. Same coming from a good family and mine is the equivilent of the very essence of non-existence.

Our only difference is my husband hasn't tired of me yet and left, which it seems I'm setting myself up for and the sad part is I know it.


I'm going to take the list from the second or third post; and STOP setting my family up for REAL unhappiness.

I can certainly relate to you i have been married for 14 yrs but have lived with him 4 yrs prior to marrying so that makes that a total of 18yrs & i still can't get him to have sex with me it's alway's excuses like: I have a headache OR im stressed & i have told him probably a dozen times sex is the best stress reliever but it doesn't take that into consideration at all.
And his other excuses are im NOT feeling well & this is frustrating the heck out of me & in the past i have gotten so fed up with it i went outside my marriage to seek the love & attention i need & im sure im NOT the ONLY who has done this either.
He knows why i go out & get love & attention some where else i have told him numberous times but he is obviously NOT getting the message loud & clear cause he hasn't changed OR made an effort to change & as of today this morning we fought about that & the fact that every time we don't get along & we argue about something he ALWAY'S says something derogatory to me which is NOT right it ONLY adds fuel to the fire & the arguement escalates & gets much worse.
I don't know what to do im so sick of trying with him when he doesn't bother to try with me & i have tried sitting down & discussing my needs & wants when he doesn't seem to give back in return i feel my marriage is trouble if there isn't anything done & solved real soon.
I think when he was married before that's the same reason why his first marriage failed is because the lack of love & affection on his part & he blames his wife & says she is the one who is NOT lovable & affectionate & he says she use to use a vibrator instead, i don't know who OR even what to believe anymore.
I think my husband is the one to blame for this i can see it plain as day light & nothing has changed & i don't think it ever will either to be honest too.
He just has "NO" sex drive at all.
I think he will be 48 in November but still he is NOT too old to get it up & show me love & affection why he doesn't do that for me i will NEVER know.
Who do i turn to for help?
I can't go see a psychriatrist OR a therapist OR a marriage counselor cause he probably won't admit to his problem & won't go & besides i don't have much money at all anyway.
No matter how hard i try with him NOTHING seems to work it's the same old ----.
And if i do get sex it's weeks before it EVER happens again this is bad real bad.

I've had it what do i do now?

Hi Barb,

I can only offer a piece of advice from my experience.
Where sex is concerned have your spouse look into HRT Hormone replacement therapy my husband is doing it now thru his MD and it has worked wonders. He has the energy and stamina now.
Therapy I didn't want it and still fight going but it is working I let him determine the person male or female and although I thought he would pick a male he didn't and he is listening to her advice.
Another thought..is he depressed? read up on depression and mid life crisis in men a bit of medicine goes along way to relieve these issues and he can get put on them asap ususally through a psycholigist some really good MD will also do it.

Good luck.

DONT MAKE THE MISTAKE I DID WHEN MY SPOUSE WOULDNT GIVE AFFECTION for the past 5 years...I HAD AN AFFAIR AND IT HAS MADE MY LIFE HELL...READ ON.

Yep...I am the person everyone loves to hate. the unfaithful spouse. I did the most dispicable thing I have ever done in my life. If you knew me well, you would be blown away...the good girl-34, married 11 years, no kids, good life, best freinds with my husband m.. I have no excuses for my behavior (no one held a gun to my head and told me to have an affair) and it has confused me even further. But the marriage builders site and our counselor have shown me it was because of the lack of meeting my emotional needs. While I see this, I also see the pain I have caused my best friend, my husband. Dont go down the road I did when I chose to have the affair. The only thing I am glad about is that it was a 4 day affair and I have cut all communication off with him, out of respect to m. and also to make an honest attempt at working things out.

over the years I have asked M. why he didnt want to kiss, make love, etc...he kept saying, I dont know why. I asked if it was me. He said no. He didnt want to go for counseling, and wouldnt go to the doctor. I tried everything. Then last year when we last discussed it he told me that he thought the act of sex was totally goofy to him. I was crushed. So I basically "left" the marriage 9 months ago, delved into courses, volunteering, making friends, etc., going to church...anything to fill the void- the subject of intimacy was a closed book in my eyes...he didnt see a problem. So I basically ended up like a train out of control and did the dispicable. I thought I could get by in life without the intimacy but I couldnt. Now we are going to counselling, my love bank is empty, and I am worried that there will not be a way to get our love back. He is trying so hard, wants me back, etc. but I have been "dead" so long inside. I am trying to focus, etc. to continue to work on things but this is pure hell. It would be hellish even without the affair, but the affair issues have complicated things further... Please, I tell all of you, do whatever it takes to get your spouse to counselling. M says he wished I had been more clear about the seriousness of the situation...I cant see how much clearer I could have been, as I was saying "M I am lonely, why dont you want me? Whats wrong? Do you want to go to counselling? I think we should. What about going to the doctor? Maybe you have a medical condition." Dont make my mistake by thinking that their "No" to counseling or partner building exercises or workshops is reason to give up. Affairs dont help anything. They are a weak attempt at finding something you are lacking, and they bring on a whole bunch of other hurt and issues for yourself, and your spouse.

I'm big on affection too. And while the sponteneity of it makes it seem more sincere, knowing that it's not your wife's strength, maybe you could put in a tiny bit of effort and go ahead and write her a list of things that you'd enjoy. It would take you under a minute to write where-as it not being her strength, it might take her 30 minutes or an hour to come up with something that she thinks you'd really enjoy.

My list would go like this:

When we're watching TV, I'd love it if you rested your hand across my chest and your head on my shoulder.

I'd love for you to ask me to lay on your lap and play with my hair

Next time we walk through a door together (maybe church), reach over and grab my hand for a few seconds.

Snuggle up to me in bed.

Take a second to fix or play with my shirt or tie as I leave for work in the mornings.

Give me a long kiss before I leave for work.

See? It's easy for us who want it to make the list. It's harder for her to spontaneously think of these things and try to guess what you'd like.

Go ahead and give her the list.

Look at it as a 'teaching tool.' Tell her about your need to have her initiate her own and ask her to move toward that once she gets the 'hang' of it so to speak.

Personally I always can be most 'creative' and productive when I begin with an example rather that a request or even directions.

Change yourself, not your S.. Communicate with them... find GOD or some level of spiritual connection and pray or medidate.. change YOU and the results will finally shift their pace.. look for what seems out of place..

Be strong.. and your heart will tell you what to do. All will be revealed..

There is no perfect relationship, no perfect, emotionally healthy person.. and we all must learn from our mistakes.. no matter how painful the truth is.
We GROW from pain.. We learn about ourselves and others when things are at their worst. Fear only fear.. all else is a learning experience...

The past offers nothing. WE only have NOW and maybe tomorrow. Live in the NOW. BE.. in the NOW.. It's all we really have and the fundamental principle of true happiness.. which comes from within yourself, not your marrirage, your children, your job, your house or your stuff. It comes from within and in the knowing that all will work out... It always does.. even in death, which is not an end but another beginning... it all goes on..

Sorry for the rant but this is my first post and I needed to warm up.. I have lots to share and seek much advice.. Hopefully, you all can help me..

Thanks...