<BR>I wanted to expound on your claim that your wife doesn't divorce because she doesn't want to be an "unbeliever".<P>Where do you GET this theology of yours anyway? Don't you realize that there will INDEED be divorced people in heaven? Divorce is NOT the unforgiveable sin .... God said He can AND WILL forgive all sins .... except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. You KNOW that's Bibicial.<P>Thankfully over the past few months the ONE thing that I've realized is that if I get a divorce I will NOT be doomed to hell. You cannot show me that anywhere in the Bible. Period.<P>Weak Christian? Yes. Weak Faith? Yes. Guilty as charged. I don't have the threshhold for pain that you do. I know that comes from God alone, but I'm tapped out. Long-suffering isn't one of the fruits I am very good with.<P>I'm not perfect ... just forgiven.

So you are going to go through with the divorce? Sorry it came to that Maya, I was hoping and praying that you would have a successful and happy marriage. You certainly have gone through enough to deserve one.....

Not to get into a theological debate here Maya, but because God forgives sin is not justification to sin.<P>Sure we are all weak, but as long as we are doing SOMETHING about God, we are in the race. It's when we forget about Him totally that we get in trouble.<P>I'm glad to see you put "if" you get a divorce.<P>How ya' been lately?<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

Maya, are you divorced? No. So how can you be forgiven for something you haven't done? <P>How are you doing anyway? Staying on the meds? Still seeing the counselor? Hope your feeling better. See ya.<P>------------------<BR>1Co:2:4: And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:<BR>1Co:2:5: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.<P>

Holy Cow!<P>No, I'm not divorced, not seeking divorce, but very much considering separation.<P>Yes, I'm still seeing the couselor.<BR>Yes, I'm still on drugs.<BR>Yes, I know that forgiveness isn't a justification to sin. But when I've come to the end of my rope (which is unraveling fast, thank you very much) and cannot "try" any longer, I KNOW that I'm not doomed to hell because I just couldn't get past this ....<P>I'm not the tough hard shell die hard that you guys are .... I don't have unlimited patience or strength for this. Something's gotta give or I'm gonna kill myself.

Actually, ProfessorG, I might understand WHY your wife isn't willing to return if you're doing the holier than thou thing to her also. Being preachy and legalistic isn't gonna make her come running home.<P>My H has done that to me b/4 ... it's a major Lovebuster!

My H can be that way too Maya, and it is totally annoying and a lovebuster to boot.<P>I say this, don't bother with trying to argue over this point, just take care of <B>you</B>. God knows your heart. I truly believe that. <P>Love to you... ~Sheryl

Maya,<BR>I only posted why she refuses to divorce me. I was not making a statement that she would go to hell. She refuses to leave because that is a major sticking point for her. She really is a nice lady but thoroughly confused about what a truly loving person is.<P>I know divorced people are forgiven once they get their relationship right with God. My grandfather was a prime example. He was saved right before he died which was at 76.<P>PLEASE understand that I was not saying that she is required to stay with me because it would make her an unbeliever though technically it would because of what is in 1 Cor. 7. We discussed this after her first affair. She asked me why I wouldn't divorce her. I told her I did not have a hard heart towards her. She has to be right with God and she knows that if she left that she would be at odds with Him moreso than where she is right now. Divorcing me would only add to her anguish as she sees it. This is purely speculation on my part because she won't confirm or deny that what I say is the case.<P>I am sorry I did not expand that to make that clear. I am not judging my W. I love her enough that if she were to be sent to hell that I would go in her place so that she could spend eternnity with Him. I want her to have eternal joy.<P>MONDO HUG!!!!!<P>The other reason she won't leave is that she is afraid that I would get custody of our children. When the topic first surfaced, I told her that I would fight for custody because I want OUR boys to be better men than me. The only way for that to have a higher probability of occuring ns for them to be in an environment where that is being portrayed.<BR>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>[This message has been edited by professorg (edited December 08, 1999).]<p>[This message has been edited by professorg (edited December 08, 1999).]

Thanks for the clarification. I didn't realize it was HER hang-up. I'm sorry.<BR>

Professor G: I love my W with all my being as well but would not give up my place in heaven for her. No one should.<P>------------------<BR>1Co:2:4: And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:<BR>1Co:2:5: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.<P>

Paul,<BR>You're right. Besides I feel that it is impossible, but I love her that much that I would do that because I know all of what she has gone through. The decisions that she has made were primarily related to her lack of ability to deal with stressful situations.<P>I have disagreed with her in a manner that resembled what she experienced in childhood which explains many things. I wish I had this klnowledge when we first got married. It didn't surface until about 8.5 years. I didn't understand it then. I do now.<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

Maya,<P>Never argue religion, you will never "win"...<P>Rob, you're <B>such</B> a good guy, but sometimes seem a bit offputting. <P>I am a believer, and was a part of a fundamental Baptist church for years. Yes, we did door-to-door soul-winning, and yes, I believed it worked - at the time. I now believe you can "catch more bees with honey" and realize that being overly-zealous can push people away. Just a thought, okay?<P>~Sheryl

Sheryl,<BR>Thank you for the compliment. I give God all the glory, honor, and praise for that.<P>I don't mean to be off putting. I guess that is the obtuse way in which I think. It drives most people crazy. It is even effecting others here. I haven't figured out how to not be obtuse yet without going into hibernation as I did when I was a child. IT made things significantly worse because it gave me more time to think which causes me to be more obtuse.<P>I know that I went over her boundary some where along the way. I used to use it to get inside the two of the three shells she had to protect herself from others. I feel that the only persons who have been inside her third shell were her grandmother and her aunt. No one else to include her parents have ever been inside her third shell. She distrusts that much. I think I came close several times but didn't make it.<P>I am giving her much space. I have even come to grips with moving out so that she can deal with raising the boys by herself but with my help financially. I don't mean divorce. I mean leaving the house so that she can see that it is not as easy as she thinks it is. It is a wake up call for her to see that I am not the ogre that she has painted. We would never have had these problems if she would have talked with me. I am the talkative type. I relate well when given the chance to do so. She just had me on a pedestal that I didn't ask to be placed on. She thinks I am unreachable because that is how she had me painted from the beginning.<P>I do get your point. I am giving her much space. I did not hold a gun to her head to make her marry me nor will I hold a gun to her head to make her stay.<P>I hate to say what I am going to say now. I told her that I win in eiher case: she leaves my life gets a little more simplified because then I won't have to deal with her mood swings. (I am stating it differently than I said it to her.) She stays and becomes the W that God wants me to have which is a much bigger win.<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>[This message has been edited by professorg (edited December 08, 1999).]<p>[This message has been edited by professorg (edited December 08, 1999).]

Whoa, Sheryl! Did you go to the same church I did? When I was a kid (13-15) we went to a huge fundamentalist Baptist church. Every Saturday night the youth went out soul-winning--door-to-door, city parks, etc. Geez, I hated it! Which was, in that church, practically a damnable sin.<P>I know as Christians we are supposed to bear witness, but I always thought there were other, far more effective ways than impromptu, 30-minute religious brow-beatings.<P>I'm done blaspheming now.

Maya,<BR>To make it simple, to screw a man while you are married to your Husband,,is the BIGGEST lovebuster of them ALL. Christianity has been so trivialized by you people who claim to be Christians, but are Guilty of the most heinous SINS. What might be the point of even saying that you are Christians? I know God might forgive you, but as CA123 hinted,,forgiveness by God, does not make what you did acceptable.<P>I hope the Drugs help you, your family deserves better, and I hope you can give it to them.<P>DG99(H)

D99,<P>So here you are again.<P>Do you think you can find it in your heart to speak to people with love instead of malice? <P>I don't expect an answer because I've asked you many questions in the past and you've never answered. I'm assuming that it's because I'm a betrayer - a <B>sinner</B>, and I might add that I'm saved by grace - <B>God's</B> grace. <P>I cringe whenever I see your name. Is that the message you wish to send?

Anyone mind if a heathen rabble-rouser weighs in here?<P>No one asked, but here are my observations:<P>Yeah, Rob, you can be a tad self-righteous at times, but I know you mean well. Nevertheless, being who I am, having someone preach at me, filtering EVERYTHING through religion, would drive me nuts. However, I am not you, nor am I your W, nor do I have the same religious background, so I can't say how that may or may not affect your situation.<P>Maya, your theology baffles me. I've had many theological discussions with a devout Christian friend about God and salvation, and it seems that you regard your Christianity as a "free pass" to do whatever you want here. I can't buy that. It seems that "God hates divorce, but if it's MY divorce, it's OK, because God has forgiven me for my affair." That doesn't really wash with me. It seems just to easy to say, "I can do what I want because I am saved." Assuming your spiritual system, don't we have a responsibility to conduct ourselves in accordance with what we see as God's law and God's rules? Don't actions have ANY importance, or is it like that movie theatre pass I have that gets me in free to participating theatres?<P>You ask Rob, "Where do you get this theology of yours, anyway?" Well, I might ask the same of you. It seems that you've been justifying your disillusionment, your pain, your frustration, though a theological cloud. Maybe what you're going through falls OUTSIDE of theology. Maybe it DOESN'T fit into a nice little box.<P>I don't pretend to know what sends you to Hell and what doesn't. I know that in your system, I'm headed there because I'm not a Christian. OK, so be it. I've sat through some movies recently that make me wonder if I'm already there. But it sure seems lately that you carry a lot of hate, bitterness, and resentment in your heart, and justify it all by saying "I am forgiven." Perhaps you are. But if that's the case, why doesn't it give you any peace?

Geez, I'm sorry to have stirred the pot ... and even worse I've awakened D99 .... again.<P>Well, no, I don't believe that Christ's death and resurrection and my faith and belief IN THAT gives me any right to sin .... why do you suppose I'm in such agony? A Christian longs to please God ... it's why we're freed from The Law. With Christ in our hearts, we want to please Him by obeying Him. <P>Do we always succeed? NO. Am I succeeding right now? NO. That is why I'm in total agony.<P>What I do know is that if I stay in this marriage in the present condition I'm in, I am not obeying God either. <P>Last night I cried and cried and cried. Such despair in my heart .... I cannot pretend to love my H, cannot pretend to WANT to touch him, to be with him in ANY way. I'm so very tired of TRYING the best way I knew how to be a "good" wife to him, all the while praying that God would change my heart, praying that He would work a miracle in our marriage.<P>That hasn't happened yet. Sure, it can happen ... it can happen tomorrow or 10 years from now ... or God can choose to not heal the marriage at all.<P>If I was the martyr that Rob is, I would be able to wait for 10 years for that miracle ... and according to the Bible I SHOULD. But I'm not able to. I can honestly say that if I stay in THIS state for another year, I would seriously consider suicide.<P>I do thank God that I don't want the OM anymore ... I think of him still, but I realize that he's not trustworthy (still cheating on his wife while trying to get divorced from her) and he will have a very bitter, vindictive wife that (in this state) will be able to routinely take him back to court every 2-3 years for more money ... and in this state she would be able to tap into MY income too, if I were to marry the SOB. That's a situation I'm not interested in.<P>So there ya go. I'm not saying that because I'm a Christian that I have free license to sin whenever I want. My heart does not WANT to sin. <P>

Maya, <P>I have to say bravo to Dazed. <P>I wouldn't say Rob is a martyr, I would say he is mature in his faith. <P>Why do you blast a man who is trying to heal his marriage while you are doing what you can to get out of yours? You're constantly searching for that Biblical loophole to get out. Some approval from God that it's OK to hate your husband. <P>Are you following the Biblical steps to heal your marriage? No, that's why you are in agony. <P>Are you praying WITH your husband for your marriage to heal? No, that's why you are in agony. <P>All I see from you is complete contempt for your husband. On one hand you say he's doing everything to try and heal your marraige and on the other you say you HATE him. What exactly are his crimes against you? <P>Fool No More

I didn't say I hate him. There is no love feelings for him, no sexual feelings for him. That's not a marriage. I've prayed for the past year for God to return those feelings to me ... perform a miracle in my marriage. So far, nothing.<P>I can't live like this any longer. Bravo for Rob. He's a mature Christian. That's great! I'm not .... it's just another area that I'm failing in. <P>My H deserves alot better than I'm able to give him.

Maya, I believe (even though I'm a "learning" Christian) that I cannot "Let Go, Let God", unless something is out of my control. When we do have control over our own situations and lives, we should to take a proactive stance and with the help of God, not expecting Him to do all of the work for us. We should adopt a positive attitude, and really try to get to where we want to be. We aren't backseat drivers in our lives, we do have control of what actions we take and how miserable or happy we choose to be. I know I was miserable for quite some time, but we really have to choose happiness at some point, or it's inevitably self-destructive in the long run, ya know? I know you say you are not in love with your H, I felt like that as well, but now I'm more in love with my h than ever. And it didn't happen overnight, but with work on BOTH our parts. Not one person can tell you what to do or where you should be, but you need to think about the fact that you may be looking for an out in your husband when you're really just not happy with yourself. And you do have control over it.

Maya: A new group to punch the ol Maya punching bag? Do not get to downhearted at these comments. Read them, understand that people have an opinion, but not let them drag you down.<P>To those beating Maya: Judge not lest ye be judged.<P>Stay with the program Maya. I speak of the counseling and anti-deps program, and let the chips fall. OK?<P>I was supposed to be taking a break but sometimes you find friends in the strangest places huh? Glad you're joining the fast tomorrow.<P>------------------<BR>1Co:2:4: And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:<BR>1Co:2:5: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Paul Moyers (edited December 09, 1999).]

I certainly didn't mean my reply to be beating down at all. I didn't even read it in that way. I was just there before, so I understand.

Thanks, Connor ... I don't think he's referring to you per se.<P>When you put your feelings on this forum it's fair game .... I just wish I was a little tougher.

You don't have to be tough, just understanding... everyone here is just trying to figure out how to handle the pain in their lives...

Maya, I sea bunch of caring people trying to "wake you up" as such. Now, some are not as eloquent or "easy" on you as they might be, but I believe everyone here is rooting for you & your marriage.<P>Just a thought. Have you asked your husband to help you through this? Or are you just waiting for his willingness to stay together & something "magical" do happen?<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

Well, actually Chris I've been 'WAITING ON THE LORD' as instructed. Been waiting for a year now. <P>My H is MORE than willing to work on the marriage ... has been all along. He's the Poster Boy for Patience in Marriage. Oopps, that would be Rob I guess. He's dealing with something worse than MY H ... you are too actually.<P>Sorry. My situation doesn't even parallel you all.

Don't know how this will go over here, but some food for thought?<BR> <A HREF="http://www.upperroom.org/devotional/previous/1999/December/12_7_1999.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.upperroom.org/devotional/previous/1999/December/12_7_1999.html</A> <P>Just to clarify my purpose, <P>Each of us has our own understanding of our own God or "Higher Power" and each of us has our own understanding what that God wants or "expects" from us... that said, I think this can apply to anyone of any faith. <p>[This message has been edited by yy (edited December 09, 1999).]

Thanks, yy. I understand it perfectly.<P>What I've been waiting on (and praying for) is for God to change my heart. I cannot do it. Even the Bible says that. Only God can change a heart. I'm willing .... and I've told Him that over and over. <P>I've been waiting for a miracle that everyone tells me will come. All my friends have said, "God's gonna bless you for staying in the marriage."<P>And I'm waiting .............<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Maya (edited December 09, 1999).]

Maya,<P>If that is truly what you want... for God to change your heart, then he will... when you let Him. Somewhere inside you there must still be some doubt or resistence, or a feeling of unworthiness?<P>If this is what you want, then "Act as if"... not just pretend... Look at your H when he's not looking and find just one thing that you can admire about him, and focus on that... start small... open your heart just a little and then let God do his work... if that is what you truly want.

Maya, don't you think God has better things to do than micromanage people's lives? Maybe today is His golf day and all you'll get is the service.<P>My own opinion, worthless as it may be, is that YOU have to be an active participant in your own healing. If opening your heart to God helps you do that, fine. But you are not a passive bystander. God gave you free will; and you can exercise it how you like.<P>

Oh what a strange thing this "feeling love" is. We both applaud it as a fantastic thing when it leads to marriage, and condemn it as a shallow, false feeling when it leads to an affair.<P>Well, seems to me we're all 'wired' (designed by God, if you prefer) with a strong need to feel in love, shallow or not. Good thing for the species, eh? But I don't think we can't CHOOSE to feel in love--we're at the mercy of another for that. When the actions and words that sustain the feeling diminish, the need for that feeling doesn't go away.<P>It just gets buried alive.<P>Oooops. I MEANT to say I don't think we CAN choose to feel in love. We can choose to keep someone's account open that's in the red. But only that person can make deposits to their own account in our lovebank. Therefore, you cannot WILL yourself to feel in love with anyone.<P>But you CAN will yourself to love (verb) someone you don't love (feeling).<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Doug (edited December 09, 1999).]

Huh?

How does the Lord talk to us? Maya, perhaps this forum is the way God is speaking to you. I KNOW it has been a Godsend to me. I truly feel He led me here for a purpose. Whether it is to save my marriage or not, I don't know. But I do know I have helped at least one person here. You're just waiting for your heart to change but people are telling you how you can work on it.<P>Put your trust in God, your husband and yourself in that order.

Hey Doug, <P>I think the "wires got crossed" in my H's case, he won't acknowledge the need to love or be loved... thinks it's all psycho-babble.<P>Then there's me... I still feel (or try to, or need to?) "in love" with him (don't like him much lately though) with no input what-so-ever... kind of self-destructive.<P>So now, I'm trying to decide what it is I truly want, so that I can act on that. We CAN all choose for ourselves, we just can't choose for others.

Debated, debated, debated on whether to say this last thing and evidently the saying it side won...<P>You say you've been praying for a year for God to change your heart? Why? Perhaps He doesn't want your heart to change. Perhaps He has something different for you, or your H. Maybe, maybe not. Instead of praying for a change, pray for His will. We all say that's what we want, His will, but then why do we pray and ask for our own specific wants? Why not pray and ask the Lord for whatever it is that He has for us? Perhaps pray for guidance.<P>That said, and assuming you understand what I'm saying about giving it to God, then the rest is up to you. While you are patiently waiting to find out God's will, it will happen right on time by the way, take an active part in your current situation. If you believe you should be with your H, then take an active part in restoring that, because if it is not God's will for you to be together, then you won't be, no matter what you do. So why not try?<P>I hope you find what you are looking for Maya. I hope you find what He has put out there for you. Whatever that may be. <P>God Bless<P>------------------<BR>1Co:2:4: And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:<BR>1Co:2:5: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.<P>

Maya, I'm not following this, and I like your "huh"? We can pray for God to change our hearts, and I believe this will help us be open to loving another person. BUT, if Harley's stuff means anything - he explains that this love comes from your h meeting your needs and filling your love bank. You can't conjure up feelings yourself. Although I was the betrayed, the feelings have returned very quickly. He has been slower, but I've been working steadily to NOT hit him with anger and stay on the plan to meet his needs. We are reconnecting. He had to let go of all that was in the way, but I have to fill his love bank. So I don't follow those who would make you feel guilty for not having the right feelings. Are you both in counseling together? Does he understand, unfair as it seems (I'm there too), that he has to win your love back?? As I said, I'm not following the logic in this thread. Thanks for calling professorg on his comments. I've ignored a few myself.

Funny you should mention praying for His Will .... let me relate a story.<P>My H, after having his name in for over a year (thru his cousin) he now has a job interview at a major car plant. Great money, great benefits, etc. etc.<P>He says to me the night b/4 the interview (which he was nervous about--don't know why). What do you think about this job?<P>I said, "Well, I've learned over the years not to get to excited about anything because stuff usually doesn't pan out for us. If it's God's will, you'll get it."<P>Then I'm thinking on the way to work the next day, why do we even pray for specific things? Why isn't all our prayers just "God do You Will in me today" and leave it at that.<P>So I didn't pray for H to get the job, just that God's will is done.<P>I'm not stupid. God's will IS that my marriage stay together. That's why I stayed initially. Scared of God's wrath if I went against His will. So I sit here in the middle of God's will, scared to make a move. <P>How's that for hope? Do I think God wants me to feel this way? No. But from what I surmise from obeying God ... I have to stay here ... whether the feelings EVER return or not.<P>Gotta stop. I can't see the screen for the tears that are forming.

schizzo,<P>There's a flip side to Harley's principle's though, I think... you can do everything in your powers to meet your spouse's needs and fill their love banks.... but if they don't want to love you the way you need to be loved, there's nothing you can do to make that happen, nothing. In the end, you can only control your own actions... not feelings, just actions and really, you have no right to try to control someone else's actions or feelings. Oddly enough, when you back off and start taking care of yourself, and focus your energy in other ways, you feel better anyway.<P>On the other hand, Maya is trying so hard to <BR>to generate "the right" feelings within herself... sometimes, all the "trying" gets in the way... when we change our focus to something else, it lets God in other ways.<P>I lost my train of thought, does anyone see what I'm trying to say... I think we're all pretty much saying the same thing in one way or anther.

My $.02...<P>Love is <B>not</B> a feeling, it is choice to seek the good of others (like your spouse). Infatuation is a feeling. This, I think, is what leads to so many affairs. Marriage vows are not based on feelings of love, but on the <B>commitment</B> to love.<P>A long term marriage tends to be heavy on emotional baggage, and light on spousal infatuation. The giddy feelings of infatuation are like a drug to someone who hasn't felt them for so long. When the choice is between the hard work of rebuilding a marriage and the easy availability of that next "hit" of the infatuation drug... it is a crisis in the making.<P>Maya sounds very much like my W, just sitting around waiting for the miracle to descend and rekindle her feelings for me (after her EA). She won't spend "couple time" with me - (you know, dates, playing games together, going away for a weekend) because the "feelings" of love do not currently exist. Well, how do you think they were created in the first place? They didn't just appear.<P>For us betrayed who see the spouse not actively participating in the rebuilding process it is insult added to injury. <P>My strategy is to try to create the envirnment that I <B>want</B> to exist by trying to behave as if it does. So far, no luck, but I am going to keep trying while W sits and waits for the miracle. <P>So perhaps out of my own frustration, I would suggest to Maya to DO something. Don't fake your feelings, just try to create the fertile environment where love can grow again.<p>[This message has been edited by 2sad4words (edited December 09, 1999).]

***WHOOPS! NOT DMAC...IT'S SUSE!*** (how the *hayall* did that happen???)<P>Hi, Maya,<P>A couple of things.... first of all, you still sound very depressed to me, sweetie. Has your meds and/or dosage been changed? Whatever you're on doesn't seem to be doing the trick... you're still ground to a halt... BEEN THERE, Maya!! I know the agony of hopelessness. Please look into it.<P>Second (& this is for *after* your meds are working! ) - somehow I find it hard to believe that God's plan for you entails sitting around on your tush waiting for a miracle to drop into your lap. You're getting some good advice here, Maya - don't put the cart before the horse ("miraculous change in my feelings followed by fun, sex, passion, couple-time"). I know (believe me, I know) that making an EFFORT to "love" your spouse is excruciatingly difficult and feels counter-intuitive. But if you have any hopes for success, you *do* need to work on creating a fertile ground where the seeds can grow. Sometimes all you can do is keep working, keep working, keep working... perhaps God is keeping you waiting on your miracle, pending some elbow-grease from you?<p>[This message has been edited by DuncanMac (edited December 09, 1999).]

No, love is not a feeling, but I learned the hard way that feelings are an essential part of marriage. Most folks cannot sustain love as duty indefinitely. So what I wrote you, Maya, assumed that you are not sitting on your tush, but doing all you can to meet his needs (as he defines them). That's where I was until my h's heart just started turning back to me.

Maya,<P>Is your H actually <I>trying</I> to win back your love? Part of the feeling of being "in love" is the courting process. It's so intense when we first meet. Do you remember how you felt when you and H were dating? You had those feelings for him then, right? Obviously you did or y'all wouldn't have gotten married.<P>What is he doing now to recreate those feelings? Is he "courting" you at all? Or is he simply sitting there waiting patiently for <B>you</B> to work things out for yourself?<P>Seems to me that if HE wants your love back, he's gonna have to start filling YOUR lovebank. I'm speculating here because I don't know what goes on at your house or in your family, but I haven't heard word one about what H is doing to "win you back."<P>Avoiding lovebusters is just half the battle. He may stem the flow of love LEAVING you, but if he doesn't start putting some back in, you're never going to get back "that lovin' feeling."<P>So, the question I have is this: WHAT IS H DOING TO HELP RECREATE THE LOVE?<P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<P>

2sad:<P>The very real and very legitimate need to feel in love leads to both marriages AND affairs. Only the circumstances are different, not the needs.<P>I don't understand why this 'feeling in love' is treated like a 'second-class' love or something. For pete's sake, if the need wasn't so strong and real, no one would succumb to that great fantasy that culminates in a wedding.<P>We really believe that our spouse will always make us happy, and in the throes of THAT delusion, we're persuaded to promise 'committment' love, forever and ever. An easy thing to promise when you're 'in love'.<P>Not to mention 'young' and 'stupid'.

Geez Doug,<P>All I can say is "amen!"...<P>

Amen, Lonestar!<P>I think of what you wrote, everytime I read that Maya is still having a rough time. Only because, been there, doing that. <P>Maya,<P>It is only going to happen when your husband is meeting your needs on a regular basis. And yes, you do have permision to want and need that even though you are the betrayer. Please stop beating yourself up. Easier said than done, I know. Even us lurkers care for you and are pulling for you. Take care!<BR>

Doug et al,<P>I don't mean to discount the "feeling" part of love, just to say that there is more to real love than JUST the feeling part.<P>When our relationships begin both people seek only the good of each other and ignore each others' flaws. From this fertile soil grow the feelings of love.<P>My point to Maya is just that it is backwards to wait for the feelings of love to appear FIRST, before working at seeking the good of the other person. She needs to work at the caring, affectionate part, and the love will follow.<P>

What I'm sitting back and WAITING for is the WANT TO.<P>As far as "dating" ... for the last year I've done all that stuff ... willingly gone out just the two of us, made love when I don't want to, let him sit by me on the couch and snuggle with me in bed .... all in the hope that the feelings would return. Nothing.<P>My H's hands are really tied as far as meeting my emotional needs ... I can't tell him what they are (as in I can't put it into words) and I don't want him meeting them anyway.<P>I am an emotional wasteland. There are NO feelings here .... and nothing I want taken care of by H .... nothing. I'm emotionally dead.<p>[This message has been edited by Maya (edited December 10, 1999).]

2sad is right about there is more to love than the feeling part. The feeling part is the part God designed for us to enjoy. However, we have placed the feeling part about the part He displays towards us. True love is unconditional and is a decision. That is why we ALL have a chance to reconcile with Him.<P>I feel much better knowing that I have unconditional love for my W than I think I would have just because I have the 'in love' feeling. I am not down playing the feeling; I am puting the feeling in the place where God designed it to be. The reason our lives are not what we want them to be is because we have done it our way rather than God's way. Every time we don't do it His way there is HELL to pay. <P>Sorry if I came to strong. Just passionate about His truth which sets us all free.<P>MONDO HUG!!!!<P>My Utmost For His Highest was particularly good today and goes along with what I said above:<A HREF="http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/utmost/devo/utmost.shtml" TARGET=_blank>The Offering of the Natural</A>. Yesterday's was particularly good also:<A HREF="http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/utmost/devo/12-09.shtml" TARGET=_blank>Opposition to the Natural</A>. <P><BR>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<BR><p>[This message has been edited by professorg (edited December 10, 1999).]

Maya,<P>You are indeed in the same place as my wife. I think she too WANTS to have feelings of love again. She just doesn't. Although she also hasn't really made any of the other efforts you mentioned either.<P>She doesn't want me to try to meet her needs, and she also doesn't really know what her needs are now. So we are just in limbo. Can't move ahead, can't go back. Thank God for anti-depressants.<P>It seems like there must be something which is blocking the return of the love feelings - fear, guilt, anger - something. Hopefully our counselor can discover what it is. The pain of giving love in spite of betrayal, and without receiving love back is a HEAVY burden.<P>You say you are "emotionally dead" as far as your H. What about OM? Do you still harbor feelings of love for him?<p>[This message has been edited by 2sad4words (edited December 10, 1999).]

The OM .... that's all fading. I realize he's not trustworthy, etc. but there are still special memories of our affair ... the "feelings" I guess. What I thought was so "special" ...<P>Fear ... guilt .... I'm sure those are playing into this really big ... fear of letting H get close to me ... guilt--that I don't deserve H's unconditional love, feel like I'm "damaged goods" now ... feel like he deserves so much more ...<BR>

Maya,<P>Does your H know everything aboiut your affair? Is there anything that you are keeping from him that you are afraid he might find out if you let him get close to you again? Is that also your fear - that if you let him get close and then he learns more facts that he will then leave you and you will be hurt all over again?<P>Is this your "emotional blockage"?

Going out on a limb here Maya...<P>Could you possibly be afraid of letting your H get close... because your afraid of being hurt again? <P>Of course you feel bad about the affair, guilty and all that... but don't forget, it must have happened for a reason... something must have been wrong with your relationship before the affair... could you be afraid that even though your H is seemingly trying so hard now, if you break down, things might end up the way they were before the affair?<P>My case is a bit different in that I'm fighting feelings of love for my H... I could fall right back into it at the drop of a hat, but I KNOW that nothing will really change and I'll just end up hurt again. <P>Are you afraid of being hurt again by your H??<P>

Maya,<BR>We ALL are damaged goods, that's why Jesus had to die on the cross so that we could be reconciled to God. NONE of US deserve unconditional love, it is a gift FREELY given. It doesn't come from MAN. It comes from God. Always got to the SOURCE.<P>MONDO HUG!!!<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

Possibly I'm afraid of being hurt again. Never thought of that I guess. <P>H never asks about affair, never wants to bring it up again. He knows how emotionally attached I was to OM, he knows how much I loved OM ... has never asked for details, etc. and I believe he never will. He has put it behind us and doesn't want to talk about it.<P>He's forgiven me totally, doesn't look at me as damaged goods (like I feel) ... he's unbelievable ... amazing. More than I deserve. What I deserve is to be alone the rest of my life. I'm relationship challenged. It's too hard and I hate being hurt and vulnerable.<BR>

Maya,<BR>I can relate to not wanting to be hurt or feeling vulnerable. When my ex-girlfriend broke up with me, I vowed to have women as friends and coworkers. However, God told me He had a different plan and that He wanted me to get married because He did give me the gift of forever singleness.<P>I met my W with no expectations because my brother introduced us. Because he introduced us, I thought she was going to be less than desirable. Turns out that she was the woman He wanted me to marry. My ex-girlfriend had crushed me terribly. I had kissed off women for 2.5 years. It hurts when you don't get what you think you should be getting. I learned that I had to stop looking for what I wanted and start looking for what God wanted for me. I know this is easier said than done , but it is attainable if you let Him make the decisions for you. You have to love Him enough to trust Him because He will never let you down as long as you allow Him to show you what is real.<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

Maya,<P>I'm <B>exactly</B> where you are, except my H is just now realizing how much he has "punished" me over the last year - and longer, but especially since the affair.<P>I feel the same way about the OM too. Yeah, he was a "nice" man, but hey, he had an affair with a married woman who was vulnerable while he was going home to another woman, so how "nice" is he actually?<BR>But still, I have a memory of feeling loved by him, but nothing more.<P>As far as the "in love" part being just a feeling: OH, WHAT A NICE FEELING IT IS! God wouldn't have given the capacity to have it otherwise. It's kind of like an orgasm (work with me here)... you don't <B>need</B> one, but isn't it nice to have? You can "make love" and "mean" it, but to have the ultimate physical manifistation of that act - pure bliss. And how long would you be willing to go without one? Men??? How long?<BR>That's how I feel. I'm no longer willing to go without that "feeling" of being "in love".<P>I hope nobody stones me for this. Hey, I'm hitting the "submit" button... here goes!<P>

That's at good start Maya,<P>Think about this different perspective... mayabe you can't identify your emotional needs now... but can you remember what they were before the affair?<P>I remember once you mentioned feeling like you were nothing more than a sex object to your H... or something along those lines... I would guess that maybe there wasn't enough real communication or respect of you as a person? What did the OM contribute that was lacking in your marriage... heart to heart communication? A feeling of friendship maybe...<P>I think you might have something to work with here Maya... think down this path for a bit... see if it gets you anywhere.... also think about what attracted you to your H in the first place... think through your relationship prior to the affair, you may be able to identify a turning point where things started to fall apart. This is not about blame, or who did what when that caused things... because we all know you can't change the past... but, you can learn from it.<P>

Me again.<P>The in love feeling can be even better when it is put in the proper perspective. The making love is even more intense when it is in the proper perspective. I haven't experienced the in love thing with my W but the making love thing was really great because she was first as unconditional love says she should be. <P>We need to focus on what the priorities are in order to feel even better than what I hear (read) everyone saying that it is. It is much more pleasurable than anything you have encountered to date when you do it God's way. I am sure Satan is getting a big kick out of US not seeing that it can be better than the lie he is telling us all.<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by professorg (edited December 10, 1999).]

Maya, I think I started the new direction this is going - about the feelings, but you haven't answered my questions.<P>You said you can't articulate your needs, that you don't have any. Excuse me, but bologny (I was thinking of a different word). Read His Needs/ Her Needs again and THINK. If you were with prince charming himself, what would you want most? Once I saw that, it was easy for me. If you are an emotional wasteland, it's because you have deep needs that are not being satisfied, certainly not cause you don't have them!! As I said, after that it was easy (for the first time) for me to boldly say what I needed. For me, it is affection, great sex, and financial support in that order. Openness and a great looking guy are not far behind. But if you mean it; that you don't know what you need, who's fault is that? Sorry to be so blunt.

I don't know about Maya, but for a lot of us... it's very hard to sit down and think "what do *I* need". For me, somewhere in my upbringing I aquired the feeling that I should always think about everyone else before myself... anything less was "selfish"... and it was BAD to be selfish... these are feelings mind you... I can't recall anyone specifically saying this to me... this kind of stuff sticks with you for a long time... this mid life thing is when you start to realize something just isn't right... I'm looking at 39 next month.<P>You get depressed, you learn you grow, you realize you need to start considering your own needs, but by then you have no idea what they really are... for 30 odd years you've been thinking about everyone else... it's easier to figure out what you DON'T need... you know what DOESN'T work. Figuring out what WILL work is difficult, and even if you do, change itself is scary... thus LIMBO.<P>So, I can understand why Maya may feel like she doesn't know what her needs are... it's a slow, sometimes painful, process that you can only go through within yourself.

Yeah, yeah. Been there, done that. But at some point we have to grow up and know who we are, what we want, independent of our spouse. How can a guy or woman begin to meet the needs of another person if that person doesn't know what they want? We have to decide for ourselves in the perfect scenario, what makes us tick?

Sorry, didn't finish my thought. OR do we lose this relationship and take our "I don't knows" to the next one. We have to know, and I only grasped this recently. We talk about serving others, but we do them no service (especially our mate) if we don't know ourselves.

I'm not disagreeing with you schizzo, believe me, but what do you do when you finally get the gumption to stand up for yourself and state your needs, and your spouse says tough cookies... then turns away from you because "you've changed"?<P>Sorry Maya... butting in with my own problems there... schizzo, it's not always easy to question and re-evaluate fundamental beliefs that are a part of who you are, or at least of who you have been.

yy, I didn't say it was easy, only essential. Dr. Harley makes the case for CONDITIONAL love in a marriage in his book Give and Take much better than I can. So, what do you do?<P>I'll tell you what I did? 6 weeks ago when I learned of the EA and all the deceipt, etc, I made a decision. Fortunately, I had just read almost everything Harley has written. I would not punish my h because it would not help either of us. BUT, either we both fully implement the 4 rules (from Recovering from an Affair) and that includes me too, or we split. There would be no other choices. I'm not looking for divorce, but adultery is Biblical grounds. Heck, in those days it was a capital crime subject to stoning.<P>This is advice, not from someone who has been around a long time, but from a couple who are recovering wonderfully. I could not have believed we could be this in love in six weeks. In fact, we both submitted ourselves despite our huge doubts whether any of this would work.

Sheryl,<P>I like your analogy comparing the need to feel in love, with the need to feel an orgasm. Yeah, you can survive without it, but who really wants to?<P>I think the difference is that if we need to feel in love, we have to rely on someone else. But if we need to feel orgasm, we can take matters into our own hands. So to speak.

Schizzo,<P>Again, I agree with everything you are saying, the difference is, you have a co-operateive spouse. Right now, I detach, try to take care of my own life as much as possible while I figure out who I really am, and what I need... factoring into the equation, what my 5 year old needs. My problem is different than most here in that I'm dealing with alcohol abuse on my H's part... there was some alcohol induced infidelity, but that was a symptom which did spark the changes in me and in what I'd continue to put up with.<P>I happy that recovery is going well for you.<BR>

Doug,<P>Tee Hee <P>Ah yes, but how much nicer to receive it from someone else: again, like love. Yes, we can love ourselves, but to be loved... ah, nothing nicer.<P>~Sheryl

Hi Maya,<P> One more thought...you say that your H is unbelievable and tries to meet your needs even though you aren't sure what they are ....are you sure he's not doing anything to make that old love bank go down the drain?...for instance, having disrespectful judgements?....The reason I'm asking is because you sound an awful lot like my H with the no feelings thing and it has been pointed out to me that I'm causing alot of damage by trying to "enlighten" my H about his behavior , thoughts etc....Steve H. pointed this out to me and I think if you can do ONE thing it should be to CALL STEVE H.(I'm sounding like K now!!!) One session and I'm seeing things a whole lot different and then when I filled out the LBusting questionare....whoa, I am the queen of LB and didn't even know it!!! <BR> Please Maya, you want to be in love with your H ......so Call Steve.....the in love feelings will come as a result of certain behaviors etc......(this was promised to me by Steve!) Off my soapbox now!......Lu

I'm one of those ones that "seem" to have no needs. While my marriage wasn't terrible, it wasn't a bed of roses either, all caused by our lack of communication, mine in particular, and our turning away from one another.<P>I recently took a personality test and I was way low on "feelings". Somewhere along the line I had learned to supress them and to avoid conflict. I also never witnessed or experinced "feelings" whil growing up. I was loved by my parents, but we did not hug or kiss or yell or scream or even talk much.<P>In counseling last week, I found out that I did miss that in my childhood and thats probably the reason I do take every opportunity to be with my kids and hug and kiss them so much. I probably over compensate to make up for what I missed in my childhood.<P>I however did not do this for my w and in fact didn't know she craved it(talk about poor communication). She on the other hand I have found out is extremely needy. As her resentment for me grew, I put up my defense shields and neglected her. <P>Simply put, I loved the woman the best way I knew how. It wasn't enough although we did make it almost 16 yrs.<P>She met a smooth talker at work and now they are living together and are planning a life together too.<P>Now all I can do is better myself and raise my kids with or without her help! <P>Hopefully I have learned something through all this and will be wiser in the future!<P>------------------<BR>"You can't always get what you want! But if you try real hard,you might just find, you get what you need!"<BR>Mick Jagger

That still doesn't justify an affair, RWD, and don't blame yourself.<P>My H is pretty emotionally stunted too. His family frowns on displays of emotion. He wasn't even allowed to grieve when his mother died (he wasn't even a teenager yet).<P>MY family, on the other hand, is all over the place with emotions. I guess I'm Edgar Bergen and he's Charlie McCarthy on the emotional front -- I do it for us both.<P>I've learned how to evaluate what H does based on his INTENT, not always filtered through the way I do things. He is what he is. He won't change. Doesn't mean I'm going to go out and find someone else.

D&C<BR>I no longer blame myself. I did for the first month or two, but I have learned the affair is about her, not me.<P>I wish my stbx would have felt like you!<P>------------------<BR>"You can't always get what you want! But if you try real hard,you might just find, you get what you need!"<BR>Mick Jagger

Sheryl:<P>Yeah, a Filet-o-Fish and a Coke will keep you from starving. But lobster and a good white are sooooooo much nicer!

Doug,<P>Yeah... yummy... and it does matter, it DOES!<P>Maya,<P>You still around?? Your thread has taken on a life of its own!!

Mmmmm. Makes you wanna go to Red Lobster, eh? Either the literal one OR the figurative one. How could you go wrong? <P>Oh, and yy? In deference to your situation, I shall pass on the white wine, and order one of RL's great non-alc. strawberry daquaris. Very smooth. Very sweet.