Hi Ginger, I feel for you. I know you have tried and tried your very best to make the M work. It is way past time for your H t do some work. He needs a lightning bolt to hit him.
I so hope he turns around and you do not need to go to plan B. If plan B is the only way then you must give it a try, maybe your final one.

It seems your H with his drinking is trying to drown out his troubles. He could use some MC or IC. He needs someone to point out that his troubles will not go away by not speaking to you, getting angry with you, or in a bottle. If you plan B it will take him some time to realize this. He will probably have to hit "rock bottom" before he can see clearly. See what he has in you.

I will pray daily for you and for your H to change his ways.

I hope to catch you soon online. If not I will try a call. Please take care of yourself. Maxlo

Ginger, I think you should tell him you are leaving (maybe not now, but in advance of the event.) Tell him why, and tell him again what you need to have happen in order to stay.

I keep hoping he will get it, but it hasn't worked for me yet any better than it has for you.

Remember he may have valid needs too, see if you can meet them well before August. I think if you have a date in mind, it will be easier to do because you have and end to it if nothing happens on his end.

Sending strength and hope over the net, hope you can feel it.

SS

<small>[ June 24, 2004, 11:23 AM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

SAB,
I am so happy for you. It looks like there is an end to the frustration for some people, and I am so glad. I have a son like your daughter. He is 18 and on the other end of it now. He is just starting to get it. All I can say is don't take her consenquences for her, let her feel them so she can learn. There will be some moments when she will listen, and want help, think about that in advance, and be ready - you will know them when they come.

I keep thinking about your ice cream, and berries for independance day in Canada. Like to try it sometime. Lots of other things I would like to say, but need to do one other post and then leave on a trip.

I really have wondered how you have been, glad you came around to tell us. It is so nice when those willing to do the work get the reward for their struggles. I am thinking about all he is doing now, attending church and all, and it brings peace to my heart to know it is so much improved for you. Perhaps I can pray harder for someone else now, and not worry quite so much about your family.

For Ginger I wanted to send hope, and strength. For you maybe I'll try peace, happiness, calm, and thanks for a good example.

SS

Thanks SS,

You're a terrific friend. It's great to hear from you. However, I don't want to hijack Ginger's thread. If you want to talk some more you can answer on my thread. I found I was getting to absord by the boards. I needed to take a break for awhile a live all that I've learned from a different angle. It's nice to be missed.

Here' hoping you and all your family are well and thriving.

I'd forgotten about the berries, etc. Too much going on here. Thanks for reminding me. I'll make a big batch again and think of you.

I'm really worried about Ginger. I wish I could more to help. You and Star are much better at this than I.

Ginger: have you counselled with the Harleys? What would they say about your H's behaviour? How are things today?

Here's an inspiration that someone sent me today:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Some people come into our lives and quickly go.
Some stay for awhile and leave footprints on our hearts.
And we are never, ever the same.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">~Author unknown

Smile <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Thanks everyone for your replies.

My H does try and drown out his problems with booze and has told me as much,but also adds that "I" am the reason he drinks.

Well today I come home from work and he had made the bed,he even pointed it out to me what he had done.I do not ask much of him right now we live in an apt.so there is no yard work on his days off he has nothing to do except sit in front of the computer,we both work full time just because I dont make the same income as him I do not feel my job is less important after all 40hrs is 40hrs.All I ask is that he picks up just a little on his days off to help me out a bit.

SS: I have tried to meet all of his needs.After dday he told me all the changes he would like to see in me,the things he would like me to do.I did them all but with the lack of getting anything in return I slowly stop,this is EXACTLY where we were when he had the A and the sad thing is he does not see it.

My life is no different now than before the A only now I am dealing with the feelings that go along with finding out your spouse has been unfaithful.

I do not think he will ever change,our D wanted to talk w/him last night on the phone and he would not even listen to her he just handed the phone back to me.I pointed out to him that they will always be his kids but right under his nose they grew up and they are now adults with the right to voice thier thoughts,feelings,and opinions to us I told him he needed to be an adult and listen to his D,and deal with the situation that he created.

Today he complained of a headache and stomach ache <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I said well no kidding with all the drinking you did yesterday <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
Will he ever learn?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Let me get this straight. He has had/continues to have:

1. an OW
2. an obssession with the computer
3. a problem with alcohol

and this is your fault? After Dday YOU had to make the changes? YOU had to do all the work in the M?

It sounds to me like he has an addictive personality who likes to blame others/external factors and accept none of the responsibility for his own actions or how they are affecting you and others. Yet he'll act in ways that are like token gestures to placate you. Of course he doesn't want to listen to anyone's opinion, including your D, for fear that he may find out he's wrong and somewhat beneath perfection. Sounds familiar. No wonder you want to leave.

I would be tempted to pass him on to the first woman I saw on the street. However, I wouldn't grant that to anyone unsuspecting and decent. As SS once told me some people are not able to cope in this world and are better left alone.

I think you've done all you can and should stick to your plan (B) at the end of August. I'm thinking of the lyrics to St. Elmo's Fire:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just once in his life
A man has his time
And my time is now
I'm coming alive</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's Gingersnap's time now.

Everything you said is correct except the OW.As far as I can tell there is no one else right now,and the last contact that I know of between them was over a year ago.After dday they stayed in contact for several months but not as often as before then one day when he was leaving for work and I was getting his clothes ready I was emptying out his pockets of his shorts(that were just thrown on the floor... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> )and I found 2calling cards and her # all wrapped together I'm sure he was going to be calling her that night but I called her instead <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> That was about 4m after dday and the first time ever that I had talked to her.After that I have seen no signs of contact.

Yes he wants to put the blame anywhere but on himself.Sometimes he will say "Its all my fault"(meaning him)but he does not say it in a tone of sorrow more of a tone of he is just saying it to shut me up.
He would rather send me on vacations,buy me a gift or let me go shopping with no limit than put any time or effort into the M.That may have worked when I was in my 20's but not anymore.

Yesterday was a little better we did spend some time together,maybe he is now realizing that I am serious when I say I am leaving.

But one thing you said was very true,Its my time to live now,I have stuggled by his side all these years,raised the kids with little help from him,sacrificed having things I would have liked so the kids or him could have things,settled for 2nd best way to many times.
Now the kids are older,only 2yrs until the youngest graduates from HS,its time to enjoy all that life has to offer,I never had the chance when I was younger because of a choice I made and then having the responsibility of a baby at age 17.Dont get me wrong I do not regret having my son but it was not easy being a teen mother and wife and back then I did not even know you could get help so we worked and made it on our own as it should be.

But at 43 I am older and wiser and realize what I want out of a relationship,I do not mind giving 110% if I am going to get the same back.
But to give it my all and get nothing......I have lived that way for way to long and it just wont work anymore.

It's amazing what they'll do when they think they are going to lose you...

Stand your ground. We'll be right behind you.

Thanks just knowing I have somewhere I can come and be honest about my feelings and frustrations without worry of the reaction helps alot.

Hi ginger!

Just checking in on you!

I agree with SAB's post...it's Gingersnap's time now.

Stand firm on your plans to leave in August. It's long past the time for your H to step up to the plate.

Wishing the best for you...

sss

Well things have changed.
My son came home asking for help.Said he wanted to do good but he needed help,H said he could stay.
Because of the drugs in his system he has been hard to handle this has caused more stress,needless to say H said he does not want to do this anymore,he cant take it,he is tired of dealing w/the kids us everything.So today I talked to my boss,I have 5 days off starting friday that I had already requested,I will start 1wk of vacation after that and then a 30day leave of absence.

I cant believe it I will be gone,this is so hard.I am angry that I have to leave miss out on the thing that meant so much to me,once again I am the one having to make all the changes.He kept telling me to leave and now he does not believe that I am.
I feel lost,my whole life has been turned upside down,my family has fallen apart and all he can think of is what will make him feel good,what is easiest for him.
I guess he give the word selfish a whole new meaning. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Gingersnap

Kinda of knew you would be here!!! Hope everthing goes okay with you and I just wanted to know that you will be in my thoughts. Your H is such a stupid man, he has a whole lot of growing up to do. When things get rough, he sticks his head in the sand, what kinda man does that make him??

If there had been two of you in recovery, then you would not be hangin out in this section!! It is your time now, you have given that M your all and now it is time YOU found happiness. You deserve to feel love and wanted and if I am honest, this man is incapable of showing it to anyone, even his own flesh and blood.

You know how worried I will be for you my dearest friend. PLEASE keep in touch when you can, I will pray for you.

Love

My son took off yesterday said he was going to his girlfriends house we have not seen him since.

I dont know what to do now,stay or go.
Now my H is telling me how he cant sleep,how he has a headache how he wants to work thru this,how he does not want me to leave.

I feel like I went and opened my mouth at work to my boss and now I dont know if I should go.A part of me wants to leave and hope and pray for a new beginning but a part of me wants to stay at least until after my inventory.

Is it me did I bring all of this on myself by not accepting what he did to me and just forgetting about it and moving on?? Am I suppose to act like it did not hurt,did not change me and our life?? Am I wrong in feeling that he should have some consiquenses for his actions and the way he continues to treat his family??

Sure it was a big mistake so he says but by his lack of wanting to change or to deal with what happened how am I to feel confident that it will not happen again??

Sorry now I am rambling I am just so upset,so confused. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

From the sound of things, you were not just moving a block away, you are planning to go far. I can't remember you talking about it, but then, my memory isn't what it once was.

If you could separate, and work on things for a time, that might work, but it is so easy for him to wait until you go back to work then slack off again. If you were apart it would have a chance to become habit for him to care for you and meet your needs before you moved back in with him.

My comment about meeting his needs was made to help you keep that in mind while you prepared to leave. Sometimes we just check out and don't continue to do it well . I understand you have been doing a good job of meeting his needs for a long time without much help from him. It's one of the reasons I have worried about you.

Now, you have your son to worry about too, and I know you care about him, and want to help him.

I know you care about your H, and want to make things work there too.

Is there a way you can be out and still work on things, and is this consistant with what you want to do, or did you just want to get away from him? If he really wants to make it work, and if he really is willing to work on it, he should listen to, and contribute to a plan to make it come about. Can you formulate a plan that includes the things that are needed, and see what his reaction is?

BTW, I have been on a backpacking trip with my family, and have not been online for a while. It's not that I ignored you on purpose.

I think SAB ought to tell you about some of the things she has done, because she has seen the same attitude in her H, and she made it through to the other side where things are better.

Praying that you will know what to do.
Praying that you will be able to do it once you do know.

SS

<small>[ June 29, 2004, 06:31 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Ginger,

I will be at work until around 7 or 8 my time. My Cell phone is almost dead. When I get to the car so I can plug it in, I will call you.

Huggs to you my friend. I'm sorry I've been too wrapped up in me to be there for you.

SS and Sue
Thank you both.
Sue you are not to wrapped up in you,YOU have alot going on.I worry about you and often think to myself if Sue can do this so can I.Problem is I think you are stronger than I am.

SS......a plan....hmmmmmmmmmm
Let me give you some back ground.We live in a very small town,it is known for its high level of drug use and teen pregnancy.For years I begged my H to transfer because I was so unhappy here,he said NO this is where my job is and if you are going to stay with me then I guess you will live here.
My 22yr old has told me how much she hated life here when she was going up and feels alot of her anger as a teen was due to that.

We had our son in a great program,it was run by the state,the state sued us for child support to pay for him being there it was no big deal because we felt it was worth it(ok I felt it was worth it,H always throws it in our sons face how much it cost us)but last summer they said he would not have enough credits to graduate so he would have to come home early from the program.He came back here to this small town where everyone knows everyone and right back to the same people he did the drugs with before.Needless to say he is worse now.
My H plan is that "I" must move to get the kids out of here.Not that "WE" should move.

Every time he gets mad he starts in on me about how he is going to leave me,or tells me that we need to be apart.I do not think we can be apart in this small town.

My plan was to move closer to my 2 adult kids after my inventory by then we were hoping to have a few things payed off and maybe think of H commuting and eventually quiting here and finding work there.

When my son came home the stress level here went thru the roof.At one point I feared he was going to hurt my D.I know it was the drugs and him coming off of them,he said he wanted help.All my H could do was go outside and loose himself in a can of beer.He told me I needed to leave.My nerves were shot by the time I went to work on Monday I had,had very little sleep and feared while I was gone something horrible would happen at the house.I ended up telling my boss what was going on and she suggested the leave of absense.

I cant keep living like this,I'm not really sure I want to leave,I fear he will be with someone else as soon as I am gone.

I tried to talk with him the other night and all he said to me was "I just dont know how to talk to you".
I told him I did not understand how he could spend so much time talking to another woman (after all an internet A is made up mostly all of talking)yet say to me he does not know how to talk to me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

To be honest I dont know if he is capable of meeting my needs after all one of the most important ones to me is conversation,I'm a talker I love to talk. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

ginger,

For a long time, your difficulties have existed on several different planes. You have been buried under a mountain of problems so long, I have no doubt that you're exhausted. Your marital situation is complicated by the issues with your son....which divide you. In a marriage that is already divided...that issue just makes all of this more devastating. But you can't attack these things all at once.

So, let's talk about the marriage first. Feelings are not right or wrong, so trying to qualify them in that way is pointless...you feel what you do. But let me ask you this...what does forgiveness look like to you? What would it take to forgive your husband for his affair? If you don't know...he can't possibly know. If you don't tell him...he cannot read your mind. What you think he should know....he doesn't, because he doesn't think like you do. You have always struggled with the ability to be open or honest with your feelings....but you expect him to know what they are. If he is willing to follow through with the things you need to have closure and you still hang on to resentment...then that is a battle that you must fight.

Why not at least approach this issue first...with some radical honesty before leaving. Tell him exactly what you need and how you need it. Allow him to succeed or fail so that you feel comfortable with your next step. In the meantime....begin planning NOT your exit...but a separation designed to effect change...like Plan B.

You live in a small town...and everyone knows everyone else's business....I understand that is unnerving....but you will let those small folk have way too much power in controlling what you do. What if you didn't? What if you realized that their opinion of you is so insignificant that it doesn't merit your concern?

Your son....please start reading and contacting people who can help you. Maralys Wills has a book out entitled "Save My Son". I haven't read it, but it sounds very good. "Tough Love: How Parents Can Deal With Drug Abuse" by Pauline Neff sounds worth reading.

Please consider renewing your faith and your spirit. It's very difficult to choose happiness when you give the power for your happiness to others. How can you empower yourself? Here are some strategies that might help.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Misery Maker #1: Do you believe others cause your feelings? Do others "make" you feel guilty about things?

Empowering Mentality: You create your own feelings and make your own decisions. People and events do not cause feelings, but they can trigger your mental habits. You may wish to empower yourself with more information about relationships and communication skills.

Misery Maker #2: Are you so conscientious in your self-improvement efforts that you never miss a chance to remind yourself what you should or should not do? "I should have studied more." "I shouldn't have eaten so much."

Empowering Mentality: "Shoulds" don't get the job done. They're just a way of punishing yourself after the fact. Guilt and shame don't produce much action; mostly, they drain your energy and discourage you. More information about realistically achieving peak performance may help you.

Misery Maker #3: Are you a relentless critic, always finding fault with the way you look and feel or the way others act toward you? Do you nag yourself and others, especially those you care about?

Empowering Mentality: Replace criticism with encouragement. Encourage yourself and your friends rather than criticizing them. Give a compliment or a pat on the back. Visualize the positive and achieve what you want. Read more about improving self-esteem.

Misery Maker #4: Do you believe that you must do everything perfectly or not at all? Do you sacrifice fun in your life to achieve every goal?

Empowering Mentality: Perfection is a high goal to aim for; don't insist on starting there or even arriving there. Do your best and then accept it. You can enhance your life performance and have fun, too. Seek out help to deal with your perfectionist tendencies.

Misery Maker #5: Do you assume you are to blame whenever someone is upset? Do you often ask yourself, "What did I do wrong?" If your roommate or significant other is in a bad mood, do you feel responsible for it?

Empowering Mentality: The person who is upset "owns" the problem. Stop apologizing and accepting blame. Everyone has the right to have angry feelings, but you don't have to feel guilty. Recognize that interpersonal conflicts can be healthy, leading to constructive change and deeper understanding. Strive for emotional wellness with yourself and your relationships.

Misery Maker #6: Do you "steal" responsibility from others? Do you feel responsible for the happiness of another person? Do you take on other people's responsibilities, then get angry when they don't appreciate all you've done for them?

Empowering Mentality: Stealing responsibility from others only cheats them out of a growing experience. Learning to deal with the consequences of one's behavior is part of being an adult. Seek greater self-responsibility and self-determination. Make some lists to clarify your own needs and wants. Remember, the world has many shoulders to carry it.

Misery Maker #7: Do you call yourself stupid if you make a mistake? Do you call yourself a failure if you slip off your diet or skip a test review session? If your mistakes are pointed out to you, do you feel as if you are under attack and become defensive?

Empowering Mentality: You're only human, so treat yourself with kindness, not abuse. Allow yourself to make mistakes and then forgive yourself. Move ahead with a positive attitude; take time to laugh at yourself. Explore the healing power of laughter.

Misery Maker #8: Are you a compulsive people pleaser? Maybe you need the frequent approval of others and forget to give yourself approval. Do you make sacrifices and then get mad at yourself?

Empowering Mentality: Give yourself permission to decide you're doing the best you can. Don't wait to hear it from someone else. Tell yourself you're doing a good job, and ask for encouragement when you need it. Do something extra nice for a very important person -- you!

Misery Maker #9: Do you motivate yourself with fear? Fear and scare tactics may get your attention, but they won't last long as far as motivation is concerned. You may end up feeling anxious and unhappy.

Empowering Mentality: Motivate yourself with choice, not fear. Visualize success and make decisions that fit with that image of success. For instance, picture yourself succeeding at a task and think of the satisfaction and good feelings you'll have when you meet your goals. Learn more about effective self-assertion.

Misery Maker #10: Do you interpret events and comments in a negative light? If your friend says "Your hair is looking good today," do you ask yourself "What was what was wrong with it yesterday?"

Empowering Mentality: You do have a choice, so choose a positive interpretation. Accept a compliment! Look at temporary setbacks as opportunities for growth. The positive appraisal will help you maintain your energy and give you an improved outlook. Encourage positive selftalk from those inner voices.

Misery Maker #11: Do you hang on to painful memories? Do you dwell on bad feelings to justify your bad mood? If someone doesn't say they are sorry, do you stay mad at that person?

Empowering Mentality: The only part of the past that affects you is your present interpretation of it. Only you are in charge of that. Try to reinterpret these past events in a positive way. Forgiving is helpful and, at times, is necessary to move forward. Don't forget to forgive yourself, too.

Misery Maker #12: Do you coach yourself into believing you can't do certain things or deal with change?

Do you frequently hear yourself saying or thinking "I can't"? If you say this often enough, you will soon believe it. It will become a self- fulfilling prophecy and you will feel more powerless and out of control.

Empowering Mentality: Believe in yourself and realize that you are a capable person. Give yourself positive, encouraging statements. If your goal requires a response or approval from others, you revert to feeling helpless and feel out of control. Work at feeling good about yourself and become more self-reliant. Seek help when you need it.

YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE
All of these messages reinforce the fact that you are responsible for yourself. Your happiness (or your misery) depends upon what you tell yourself, how you treat yourself, and how you interpret your world. It's an inside job. So, take the challenge!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

<small>[ June 30, 2004, 09:04 AM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

<small>[ June 30, 2004, 11:14 AM: Message edited by: SAB ]</small>

Hi Ginger,

SS asked if I could share some of my methods with you:

1. DETACH. Act as if your H was a child that's was going through a rough time.
2. Focus on you. Smile and say, "I love you" to your reflection in the mirror everytime you look at it.
3. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
4. (Like Star) Have fun. Laugh.
5. (Like SS) Choose to have a positive mental attitude (PMA). Dr. Wayne Dyer, Leo Buscaglia, Tony Robbins are great sources of inspiration.
6. Let go and let God take care of your H. You've done all you can.
7. Cherish your children and grandchildren. They will give you strength.
8. Keep with your plans to leave. It seems that your H responds to that even if he's telling you to do it. (It sounds to me like he challenges you because he doesn't really believe that you will do it.)
9. Take care of yourself. Do something everyday that makes you feel good about you.
10. Be a weeble. No matter how many times they get knocked around, they never fall down nor stay there.
11. Let your H deal with own problems. Don't take them on yourself. Let him struggle and squirm with his consequences. You have enough of your own. Lend an ear in support but don't take on his weight.
12. Less is more. The less you do, the more he has to.

There is a whole section on Mid Life Crisis on the Divorce Busting site. You can lurk there to see how others are trying to cope with similar issues to yours.

If you want to read my thread, SS bumped it yesterday "Where do I go from here".

Strength, strength, strength...

<small>[ June 30, 2004, 11:14 AM: Message edited by: SAB ]</small>

After reading Stars post I think I am more mixed up then I first thought..LOL

Thank you Star and SAB for your responses.I am so confused,my H I believe like you said challenges me to leave because he does not think I will,by yesterday he was telling me he does not want me to leave.I guess he is thinking now.

Well I did make some descisions today,#1 I have an appointment with an IC on friday my D set it up and she is giving me 2hrs free.I think this will help so that I will have a starting place.
#2 I am going to take 2wks and try and think things thru,but I will come home for my inventory it is very important to me and the more I thought about it the more I feel like my H once again is putting what makes his life easier in front of what is important to me,I WILL NOT LET HIM TAKE THIS FROM ME. After my inventory I will then decide what to do as far as a seperation is concerned.

I feel that I have let him know what I feel and what I need but he still says he does not know what to do.I have sent him information that I have gotten from different sites,I have bought him books he chooses not to read them and not to do what is suggested.

What would it take for me to forgive him?? Complete change,I would like to see him stop drowning all his problems in alcohol,I would like to see him open up and talk to me about his feelings,his fears,his thoughts,his hopes and dreams.
I would like total and complete honesty even if it seems little and simple to him,at this point a lie is a lie to me.How can I learn to trust again when he lies about how many beers he has drank??
The amount is not what is so important to me it is seeing if he will be honest.Usually he is not he will say "I only had one" and I can see 4cans thrown away.How do you trust when he will lie about something as stupid as how many beers he has drank??

I would like to see him take some responsibility for what is going on in our life.
He called our OS the other night and went on and on about how everything was someone elses fault,he never once said that he had contributed to anything.

I know I need to work on me,and maybe the only way to do this is to seperate.
I am not looking to jump into a D,after all it is very hard to think of that when you have been with someone for over 27yrs.

But I know that we need change we can not continue on like this.

Please dont get me wrong we do not fight daily about the A,I hardly ever cry about it anymore but I do feel like it has been pushed under the rug and not dealt with.Because of this the anger that I have toward him for what he did sits inside of me and grows daily,I am at my breaking point.
Put this with the stress of our S,and you have me ready to have a breakdown.