HELP! I just don't know what to do.<BR>I just recently found the info on plans A & B on this site and realized that my W is in an emotional affair. <BR>She's friends with a guy she met on the internet who has similar interests as she. He's in NY, were in AZ. He's been out to visit and we've gone out there. There were some indiscretions (he kissed her when I was out of the room, she says she backed him off), but she spends more time with him (on the phone/computer) than with anyone else in her life. After the kiss thing, I wanted her to end the friendship. She talked me into accepting it, but I had one request. I didn't want them spending any time alone. She agreed with much protest. <BR>After reading about EAs and the plan A/B stuff, I realize now that I want their relationship to end. Currently, she is in counseling and seems to be learning that she has to work on herself with no regard for our 2 children or me. She told me last week that she's going to spend New Year's weekend in New York with the OM and his family, even thought she know that I don't want her to go. I'm planning to meet with her counselor to try to understand what her therapy is based on and what it's all about. <BR>My questions is...how can I even begin to implement plan A or any plan if she sees this guy as a friend who is not only harmless to our relationship, but an invaluable friend in her life? How do I explain to her why I think her relationship is wrong AND AT LEAST that her spending the weekend out of town with him is wrong (or damaging? or self-destructive? or ...?). The article I read on plans A and B assumes that the spouse is aware of the fact that he/she is having an affair. What do I do in this case? Then again, am I being reasonable? Is this an EA? I think so, but right now, I'm not sure of anything.<BR>Thanks in advance, and bless all of you out there who take the time and have the strength to respond to the messages on this site.<BR>

Dear wld:<P>Oh gosh, another one. My H is in one too, and doesn't recognize it. <P>There's a guy here named Mudder. Search for his posts. He did a numbered one about rules he follows to avoid inappropriate involvements, and also a post on how to recognize the danger signals of an affair. There are plenty of other posts here too, I don't know how to direct you.<P>Welcome, and you have a problem. Keep coming here, read and post. Jim (NSR) has a post that includes links. It's very informative.<P>I also at first welcomed, then reluctantly tolerated, my husband's "friend". What a sucker I was.<P><BR>"Currently, she is in counseling and seems to be learning that she has to work on herself with no regard for our 2 children or me. She told me last week that she's going to spend New Year's weekend in New York with the OM and his family, even thought she know that I don't want her to go. I'm planning to meet with her counselor to try to understand what her therapy is based on and what it's all about. "<P>What kind of counselor is this? Her client is a married woman with kids. Of COURSE she has to consider the effect her actions have on all of you. Is this one of those "you have to go with your feelings, morals and conventions be damned" type of counselors?<P><BR>"My questions is...how can I even begin to implement plan A or any plan if she sees this guy as a friend who is not only harmless to our relationship, but an invaluable friend in her life? How do I explain to her why I think her relationship is wrong AND AT LEAST that her spending the weekend out of town with him is wrong (or damaging? or self-destructive? or ...?). "<P>You can't because she's in the Betrayer's Fog. Nothing you say will get through to her. She's right; your're wrong, and you're taking a pure an innocent and platonic friendship and making it seem dirty. (Ask me where I heard THAT point of view.) ANd you're willing to hurt other people because you are so selfish. How can your hurt this cyber-friend who she so innocently wants to go and see, someone who has so very much in common with her? You cad!<P>Pardon me while I mop up the sarcasm that dripped on my keyboard while I was writing this.<P>Can't tell you how to successfully Plan A. I am not able to do it.<P>There's a poster here named Wide Mike, his thread begins Nov. 27, he's in the same situation as you. A guy named limbo, I think, responded to him on his thread, same deal. Wives are going to New York around Christmas. Could it be that all the wives are e-mailing the same guy? (Sick and feeble attempt at humor, sorry)<P>------------------<BR>Belle, Domestic Goddess<p>[This message has been edited by Bellevue (edited December 14, 2000).]

Welcome <B>wld</B>...<P>Thanks for the heads-up <B>Belle</B>...<P><B>wld</B>.... I have a post of general welcome I wish to share with you... <P>It has a lot of quick links to many of the <B>most</B> important MB sites...<BR>Click here ==> **edit** <P><B>About your post</B>...<P>Your situation (as Belle said) is so similar to ... <B>Wide_Mike</B>'s post...<BR>...check it out and see <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum30/HTML/000517.html" TARGET=_blank>Ready for Plan B?</A> .<P>How for more on Plan A...<BR>see <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum30/HTML/000176.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A - 101 (2nd ed.)</A> !<P>It (Plan A) <B>IS</B> hard...<BR>...but not as hard as divorce!<BR>...from first hand experience... I can attest to that!<P>Learn all you can...<BR>...starting at my **edit** <P>Stay here...<BR>...many will help you!<P>There is the all evasive "unconditional love" on this forum and it's members...<BR>...use it ...take it ...be nurished by it!<P> <P>Jim<p>[This message has been edited by NSR (edited December 14, 2000).]

Even if she doesn't admit it is an EA - I'd Plan A like crazy. If she'll discuss your relationship, or at least things she likes about the relationship, or things she doesn't, that gives you a clue. If you already know what her needs are that's even better I think, but in any case find out, then try to make as many opportunities to give her those things she needs or the EA will turn into more, like my W's did. It starts with a few little lies of ommission, then straight out in your face lies about her, him and them.<P>Pay close attention to how you treat her. For me, this was my downfall. I often was distracted during conversations, consumed with work, and selfish in complaininng about my needs, without understanding that if I meet her needs, she'll then feel better about meeting mine. Think about your love busters (LB's): angry outbursts, annoying habits, honesty (or lack of), and disrespectful judgements. First thing to focus on is your own behavior, and stop LB's. Then try to discover AGAIN what she likes and wants in order to be happy.<P>From my own experience, now 12 months past discovery of the EA of my W w/ coworker, another serious mistake is being "needy" when NOT NEEDY is exactly what is so attractive obout the OM. He basically has nothing to lose, nothing at stake, so he can be fun, w/out demands of any kind, and expects nothing, except maybe a new friend or fling of the week. I hope you'll be able to keep your cool, it was difficult for me and anyone in your situation, but it is most unattractive to seem needy, demanding or just sad & pitiful. It may be how you really are, but it is not what probably is going to win her back.<P>Then I'd say, as long as she won't admit it is an EA, then don't try to get her to stop to contact him yet. Try to coax her back into time with you with enticing activities - things she really likes - movies? sports? nature? time together alone? Whatever it is that brought you close in the first place can work again. <P>Good Luck...Lonely Boy<p>[This message has been edited by LONELY BOY (edited December 14, 2000).]

Do not let her go alone to spend New Years<BR>with the OM and his family. This is madness.<BR>You must go with her. The chances of physical<BR>intimacy are great since you know he kissed<BR>her behind you back previously. If she goes<BR>alone and has sex with him, you may never<BR>get her back.

Yep, same here. My W had a brief EA in Oct./Nov. but wont admit that's what it was. However, my discovery and ending of it was enough for her to say I've robbed her of her independence and identity.<P>We certainly has some legitimate 'control' issues, that I'm trying to work on (see Other Topics) and I'm Plan A'ing as hard as I can. Only time will tell if it will work. My advice to you is to go ahead and tr too.

Bellevue - Thanks for your insight and the tips. As for the counselor, I don't know if she's actually leading my W down this road, or if my wife is only hearing what she wants to hear, or what? I hope to meet with this counselor soon and try to get the picture a little better.<P>Jim - The "General Welcome…" link didn't get me there. I'd love to see the page/site though. Could you drop me the URL? I just read the stuff on Wide_Mike's post. Holy cow this is close to what I'm going through. Although this poor guy has to deal with her being gone for a month. My Ws only planning a weekend, and that is going to seem like an eternity (you can count on finding me here a lot for support over that New Year's weekend).<P>LONELY BOY - She's given me some ideas in the past of what she needs, but it seems vague to me (one of the things that ticks her off about me). I'd love to get more out of her, but it seems to me that when I start asking her questions about her/us, if she thinks I'm doing it to "work on our marriage" she gets mad. That scares the hell out of me. As for how I treat her, I don't think I'm pulling this one off yet. I gotta work on it. <P>Bryanp - I can't stop her. And I won't go with her. I agree it doesn't make sense, but she's determined and nothing I do or say will change her mind. On the advice of some friends, tonight I asked her not to go on her weekend with the OM (it dawned on me that, while she knows I don't want her to go, since the night she told me that she has decided to make the trip, I haven't actually said, "Please don't go."). Her response was that she wouldn't even consider my request.<P>Thanks to all four of you for caring enough to respond. But wait, there's more...<P>I told her I was going to talk to a couple who are close friends of ours. They have a beautiful marriage, they love both of us, and I value their opinion. She said she does not want me talking to our friends about our problems. "The details of our lives are none of anyone else's business," she said. She said that if I need to talk to someone, talk to my counselor, or the Rev. who married us (a close friend and great counselor). I told her that, while I do plan to talk to the people she suggested, they aren't available all the time. And that our friends are just the kind of support we (I) need right now. So, I talked with them. Tonight she asked if I had and I said, "Yes." She got MAD. Did I blow it? Should I have respected her request? Did I LB? She said that my talking to them embarrasses her. I believe and understand that. If I were doing what she's doing, I'd be embarrassed too! Please don't misunderstand. I'm not trying to cut her down. I love her. I JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY SHE'S DOING THIS. Especially when she seems to understand that no one else, not even our closest friends would ever agree with or support her in this decision.<BR>

I think it is very interesting that it is<BR>your wife who is trying to control you by<BR>dictating which people you can talk about<BR>your problems with. I think your take on it<BR>is right on in that she is embarassed by her<BR>actions. It is clear that she is going no<BR>matter what regardless of your feelings.<BR>I do not know if the following suggestion is<BR>feasibile but here goes: Contact the wife<BR>of the OM and tell her of your uneasiness<BR>with the situation in addition to the fact<BR>that her husband kissed and made a pass at your wife previously.<BR>Hopefully she will be with him most of the<BR>time when your wife visits and will not let<BR>him out of her sight. I know this sounds<BR>drastic but you have to do something. I <BR>wish you luck.

So sorry...<P>...I can't believe I had that bad link...<P>...oh well... it works now...<P> **edit** <P>Jim

Jim (or anyone for that matter),<BR>Any thoughts or ideas on my last post.<BR>Also, I'm still strugling with the concept of plan A. After reading <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>the article on Plan A and Plan B</A> several times, it sounds like I should be negotiating with my wife to end her EA. But even suggesting to her that it is an EA will send her through the roof and invalidate her feelings. She believes that it's a solid and important friendship. So, do I negotiate anyway, if so how? And if I don't negotiate, what do I do? Again, she tells me she's not working on our marriage, she's working on herself.

Dear wld:<BR>"I don't know if she's actually leading my W down this road, or if my wife is only hearing what she wants to hear, or what?" Aaah, I never thought of that. Selective hearing. <P>"I hope to meet with this counselor soon and try to get the picture a little better." Very smart. Please post and keep us updated on that meeting.<P>wld, while she's in the fog, she doesn't care what she does to you or how it makes you feel. This is a crisis, in my opinion. I understand the feelings of fear, panic, anger, desperation. If you tell her that your marriage is in crisis or is a "non-marriage" she will deny the first part and blame you for the second part. <P>That she doesn't want you talking to good friends who have a good marriage and love you both, and finding support, leads me to believe that she is ashamed of her actions. <P>Now she has to face people who she can't accuse of trying to "control" her, people with a good solid marriage, and see her actions through their eyes. <P>My priest told me it is a mistake to go through this without leaning on others. He ordered me to find a confidante, unburden myself. I hadn't wanted to admit to anyone that what appeared to be "the ideal marriage" was foundering. It helped though.<P>Have you considered counseling with the Harleys? We are currently seeing a counselor, so I don't want to talk to another one, but I agree with their principles.<P>Would your W ever go to a marriage renewal weekend like Retrovaille?<P>And, have you considered going on medication to get through this rocky period. (I finally did after over a year of trying to do it "on my own".)<P>Cyber-hugs.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Belle, Domestic Goddess

Belle,<P>She's famous for selective hearing, thinking, acting. Why do I love her so much when she's so…so…well…you know. While I don't have the answer, I know I love her.<P>The meeting with her counselor is next Thursday, the 21st. My wife will be there. What should I say/ask? Before you read on, please think about an answer (so my ideas don't cloud yours). Here's what I've got so far. My primary focus must be on her, "What is your plan for my wife, and how do you plan to get her there?" as opposed to, "How are you helping my wife so that our marriage gets better?" I'm also planning to ask, "On what principles or who's work/research do you base your therapy? Is there a book based on these concepts that I can read, so that I can get a better understanding?" Also, "How do you define marriage, and do you consider the fact that your client is married when planning therapy?" So, am I doing OK here? Should I omit anything? Did I omit anything that you (anyone) can add?<P>Thanks for understanding my feelings of fear, panic, anger and desperation. Because right now I'm feeling fear, panic, anger and desperation! This sucks, I'm really sad today. As far as my telling her our marriage is in crisis, she knows that, but doesn't seem to care. <P>I agree that she's probably ashamed of her actions. But if that's true, why does she still do it? I did not take the decision to talk to our friends lightly. I knew she didn't want me to, and that it would embarrass her (which in turn makes her mad at me, trust me less, and withdraw more). But I really felt that it was important. She says she's not trying to deny me support in this tough time. She's OK with me talking to my friends at work (with whom she doesn't interact), my counselor, the priest who married us (and is one of the most valued people on earth to me). I'd love to get all of our friends on board for love, support and prayers. But that would crush her. But I thought, and still do think, that talking to this one couple was reasonable. But I am VERY concerned about her reaction to my talking to them. Do I need support? YES. Should I be avoiding love busting? YES! So how does that all fit together?<P>I was thinking about Retrovaille, and we went on a Marriage Encounter weekend a couple of years ago. I could ask her, but she seems so focused on her, not marriage, not me, only her. I don't think she'd go for it.<P>I've thought a little about the meds. I'll probably talk to my doc about that sometime, but not right away. I'm bummin, but copin.<P>Thanks for the hugs, right back at ya.<P>Bill<P>Oh, and one more question for all of you. Should I take her to the airport? Send her off with love? Or should I send a message that I don't support her decision to go and tell her she's on her own getting there?<P>[This message has been edited by wld (edited December 15, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by wld (edited December 15, 2000).]

Dear wld:<P>I read your post but want to think about it before responding. Am hustling with last min. Christmas stuff and packing. So no comments just yet. Soon.<P>Meanwhile, I hope wiser heads post to you. There are some very sharp people here.<P><BR><P>------------------<BR>Belle, Domestic Goddess

wld, I did some more thinking. Your questions are really well thought out. I wish I could add something to help. <P>My advice, (which I myself can't follow, even with the aid of medication) is not to blow up, lose your temper, be sarcastic and insulting. That would be Love Busting. It will give your wife the excuse to say that you don't love her. What to do instead? I don't know. There's a woman here who used three phrases a lot: "I see. I understand." and I forgot the third one. <P>By the way, her husband filed for divorce. So though those phrases are good tools, it's not foolproof. <P>Ugh, I hate this. I don't like being in a marriage that's in crisis.<P>Wish I could be more help. Keep posting. Try other forums because sometimes people don't hang around in just one forum. And good luck. I won't be on the Boards until after Christmas.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Belle, Domestic Goddess

OK, so I'm plan A-ing and I'm feeling the benefits (for me). She's still somewhat distant, but I've only been at this for about a week (I know... Patience is a virtue and the root of all Plan A-ers). The problem is that I'm starting to get nervous about this trip she's going to be taking to meet the OM over New Year's. That weekend is going to <B>S-CK!</B> If you've been through this, how do you cope with "The Trip?" I told her this morning that our kids and I would take her to the airport, which was very hard to do. <P>I guess I'm just looking for some ideas on coping and some support, trying not to snivel. <P>Comments? I'm also looking for feedback on my last couple of posts to this thread.<P>Thanks in advance.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Bill<BR>Remember the truth that once was spoken, "To love another person is to see the face of God."

Dear wld,<P>I am so sorry for what you are going through now. Waiting for this trip must be excruciatingly painful.<P>My own situation was quite different. My wife carried on a long affair in secret, and it ended when I found out. I have thought very hard about these issues, but I really can't tell you what would be right or wrong, in terms of influencing your wife. Only you can judge that, and even so, you might get it wrong. Ultimately, she is in charge of her life.<P>However, you are telling us how upset YOU are about her trip. You indicated that you told your wife that you don't want her to go.<P>Have you articulated to her why? Have you told her what you are feeling? Your letters express fear that you will lose her, jealousy over their relationship, resentment over how the cards are all stacked against you (you must be a husband, father and wage-earner, he can merely focus on intimate communication and love), and worry about your family. And you seem to believe strongly that you should not share your wife with another man.<P>What are you really feeling now? So many things, I imagine, that it must be almost impossible to put them into words. But you must. You need to be clear with yourself about what YOU are feeling, and about what your own bottom line is.<P>And then you need to express your feelings, at length, to your wife. And you must be extremely sensitive to her at the same time. These conversations might be the hardest things that you will ever do. And they cannot be short, even if she doesn't want to listen, and you find it hard to talk.<P>I would guess that she will insist she can do whatever she wants, that you can't control her, that this is her life. (Only guessing). And she is right about that. So don't issue threats and demands. But do tell her, repeatedly, how you feel about this. And to do that, you must be very clear in your own mind and heart, about what you feel. Don't say, "I demand that you not go," for example. But do say "I have already felt so cut off from you, so lonely and jealous, just because of your communication with OM. But imagining you alone with him on vacation hurts so much more." (If words like that truly express what you are feeling).<P>This approach has the advantage that she CANNOT do this while hiding from the emotional cost. You make no demands, but she is not allowed the luxory many wayward spouses indulge in, of pretending that they aren't hurting anyone. She will probably still go, she will probably argue with you and deny everything you are saying, but inside she won't be able to hide.<P>More importantly, you will be establishing your voice in your marriage, and doing so with dignity and self-respect. Since you have promised to take her to the airport, I suppose that you should follow through. But your actions are not compatible with the words you write to us on this forum. You are saying that you can barely imagine living with her going on this trip, that you view it as wrong, and yet you have promised to help her.<P>I think that you should think clearly about your bottom line here. Not "Go, and I divorce you tomorrow." (Unless that is, truly, your bottom line and you are prepared to follow through. Most of us would advise against it). But how about, "I am deeply hurt by this trip, and it violates MY OWN beliefs about what is right and what is wrong. I can't stop you from going, but I will not do anything to help you, my wife, develop a relationship with another man. You have to do that for yourself."<P>I know that this seems to violate some people's views of Plan A. But if your wife asked you to make reservations for her and OM in the honeymoon suite of a hotel, would you do it? Would you imagine that helping her out would somehow increase her love for you? Instead, it would probably just help her lose what little respect she has left for you. <P>She will have to make her own decisions. I have thought for months about my wife, and what she did and went through. I might even understand some things about herself that she doesn't see. But I cannot change her, and she knows far more about herself than anyone else. And even if I could change her, what would that give me? Someone under my control, not my life and my love. So I slowly learned to argue about my own feelings and wants, while still respecting hers. And that has given her the space the change and grow. In our case, we have grown closer, and our marriage is now thriving. But she might have chosen otherwise.<P>I wish for you wisdom and courage and patience.<P>StillTrying

StillTrying,<P>You post has given me a lot to think about (damn you and thank you).<P>I have told her in the past how I feel about her relationship with the OM. I did not go into the details of my feelings this time. It's clear to me that she sees this relationship as a safe and valuable friendship. I'm worried that if I explain my position, that her relationship with him is bad for us, she'll take that as me disregarding her feelings and disregarding that which is important to her. But what you're saying also makes sense (hence the "damn" above, meant with humor and respect). I think I'm also afraid that she'll tell me that my feelings don't matter to her, which may be true, but I don't want to hear it (I know if that's true I should hear it, but I really don't want to).<P>How can I tell her my feelings, "You're in a relationship that's destroying our marriage and hurting you, the kids and me," and still be sensitive to her feelings, "This is a valuable and harmless friendship"?<P>"This approach has the advantage that she CANNOT do this while hiding from the emotional cost."<BR>I don't think she's hiding from the emotional cost. I really think that she's so focused on herself that she has convinced herself that anything she does that hurts me is my problem, that she should take no responsibility for it (she may even be getting this cr-p from her counselor).<P>"Since you have promised to take her to the airport, I suppose that you should follow through. But your actions are not compatible with the words you write to us on this forum." <BR>My decision to take her to the airport (which I'm still struggling with) was based on the idea that I send her out of town with as much love as I can (instead of mean spirited resentment). But I see your point, it does seem to contradict my feelings.<P>"But if your wife asked you to make reservations for her and OM in the honeymoon suite of a hotel, would you do it?"<BR>I know that's a rhetorical question, but I'll answer it anyway. No. But a request like that clearly states and admits infidelity. She believes I'm trying to deprive her of a good friend. It's a belief made in the fog, but real to her none the less. My goal is to get her back to an emotional state of trust. Trust in me and trust that our marriage can be satisfying. If she gets to that point, then and only then will she be able to see the damage of her relationship with the OM (I think).<P>I'm thrilled for you. And while it looks like I'm batting down your ideas, please understand that they have been thought provoking and VERY welcome. Feel free to bat back. <B>THIS IS WHAT I'M LOOKING FOR!</B> Someone to give me alternatives. Your post, at this point has had the effect of solidifying my thoughts on this (although I plan to give all this A LOT more thought and that may change).<P>Please keep an eye out for my posts, and keep us in your prayers.<P>Thanks, and again, all posts are welcome!<BR><P>------------------<BR>Bill<BR>~~~~<BR>Remember the truth that once was spoken, "To love another person is to see the face of God."

Dear Bill,<P>It sounds like you are thinking very hard about this one. Do you have many close friends to confide in? (I know that you talked to one couple). Their support could be invaluable for you. I don't know if I would have made it without my sister and my therapist.<P>I am going to bounce a couple things right back at you. Just my opinions, and not necessarily right for your situation:<P>--"How can I tell her my feelings, "You're in a relationship that's destroying our marriage and hurting you, the kids and me," and still be sensitive to her feelings, "This is a valuable and harmless friendship"?"<P>--> You are not presenting your feelings here, nor hers. You are judging your wife's actions, and the consequences of those actions for other people. And she is countering with her own judgement. You might believe that her relationship will destroy your marriage (I would almost certainly agree with you). But that is an idea, a judgement about the world that you share. As you said, she thinks differently. <P>However, if you tell her, "Each time you contact OM, it feels to me like a knife is turning inside me. The loss, jealousy, pain are so intense," then she can't argue with you. (Assuming that your statement does reflect what you really feel). Those are your feelings, and that is just the way things are.<P>The difference between the two statements is enormous. Before the two of you can make any agreements, or resolve this crisis, you must each understand the other. And that means you must express who you are and what you feel. Not hide behind impersonal statements about the situation. Wayward spouses, in particular, seem often to dehumanize and hide from any real contact with their spouse, because it is too painful for them to see what they are doing. Sometimes it seems that the worse they feel about their actions, the more hostile or withdrawn they become.<P>I have found this process extremely difficult. I tend to think hard about a situation and then advocate my position by stating and arguing for the ideas I have developed. But in an emotional, crazy situation (like any affair) that approach simply doesn't work. Reading the section about disrespectful judgements in Survival After an Affair helped clarify my thinking tremendously.<P>Let me share a personal example. But beware, it comes from a time more than a year after the affair ended, and so might have very little to do with your own life. My wife had saved things from OM. For months she was adament that she would not destroy them. I tended to avoid arguments, but finally I laid down a demand that they go, or I would feel it necessary to divorce. And we almost got divorced, and just pulled back at the last minute. After letting the issue rest, months later I talked to her and told her how I felt about her keeping those things. She argued for a long time, and seemed to feel that I was again demanding that she destroy them. But instead, I repeated over and over how I felt about them, and why I felt that way, and asked if we could work together to come up with a solution. An hour after the discussion she called me and told me that she had thought about what I had said, and that she agreed, and would destroy them. I was deeply impressed and touched by her ability to think about my feelings and needs and question her own beliefs. I suppose that is part of why I respect and love her so much. But if I hadn't begun to change my own approach and my own way of looking at things, she might not have had the space to change too.<P>-- "I don't think she's hiding from the emotional cost. I really think that she's so focused on herself that she has convinced herself that anything she does that hurts me is my problem, that she should take no responsibility for it."<P>--> She might say that and act like it, but I would guess that she doesn't like to consciously hurt you. The louder she protests, the worse she might feel inside. But whatever she feels or does, you need to get your own feelings out on the table. In a respectful, considerate manner.<P>And to listen to her. What is she really feeling? Calling this a friendship is just a label, a way for her to justify it. Have you asked what she feels when she talks to him? What she hopes for in this trip? What the thought of losing him makes her feel like? (Could you handle the answers if she told you honestly?) Have you asked about what she has felt was missing in her life? About her hopes and fears for herself and for your children?<P>I don't know if she will answer any of these questions, nor if anything would come of it. But it might be a start. She is acting out of a deep compulsion now - rationalizations and ideas are just a smokescreen, as much for her as for you. (Wild guessing here on my part. Judge for yourself).<P>--"My decision to take her to the airport (which I'm still struggling with) was based on the idea that I send her out of town with as much love as I can (instead of mean spirited resentment)."<P>--> Do show her as much love as you can. Do not withdraw from her. I agree completely. But can't you do that while standing up for your own beliefs? If you do so respectfully, she might not be very happy about the car ride, but she could end up respecting you for your independence and firmness. More importantly, you would end up respecting yourself. But you must stand up for your own beliefs in a way that is neither hostile nor judgemental ("I know that you see this as just a friendship. I can't judge what it means for you. But your relationship with OM hurts me, and violates my own deeply held beliefs about the sanctity of a marriage. I can't stop you. You are a free person, and I wouldn't want you to be anything else, because I love you. But I won't help you further your relationship with him. I couldn't respect myself if I did") I am sorry for making up speeches here. I don't know what you should or shouldn't say, I am just thinking of examples, to try to make myself clear.<P>When I found out about my wife's affair, she wanted one last time to see OM, before cutting all contact. And I felt, in my uttermost self, that I could never actually agree to that. But she was so insistent, and so distraught. I became physically ill from the shock and stress. But I told her that I didn't feel that I could agree to that, and she ended it with a phone call instead. I can't tell you how hard that week was though, when we were making this decision, and how many times I have looked back, and felt relieved that it turned out as it did. I didn't know it at the time, but my own self-respect was on the line. And her respect for me, perhaps. If she had gone, I couldn't have stopped her. Don't know what I would have done. But to have given my assent would have destroyed an important part of me.<P>I didn't have any fancy speeches then. I was operating in shock, guided only by love and my deepest beliefs about right and wrong.<P>You are in my prayers.<P>StillTrying<P>

Dear Bill,<P>One more thought. After you get your own feelings out on the table, and really listen to her, you still have to decide what to do. You seem to be in a box right now - either she goes alone, or she doesn't go. I see why you have set up the situation this way. But there are lots of other possibilities. You ought to explore them together.<P>For example, you could go together, but then she would cut off contact afterwards. Or you could go together, but stay somewhere else, and visit them briefly as two families. Or you could offer a trip somewhere else altogether, somewhere that she would love to go. Or ...<P>The point is that, after you both express what you are feeling, (aand that is a huge process), you still need to make some decision together, one that is acceptable to both of you. In the long run, no contact will be necessary, but deal with one crisis at a time.<P>I wish you well.<P>StillTrying

StillTrying,<P>You've given me a lot to think about, thank you. As for the speeches, don't apologize. Sometimes the right words are impossible to find, and yours have been very helpful and thought provoking. I think my depression today is partially because of that (no, I don't blame you for my depression). I've found a course of action that I've been following based on thoughts and ideas that seem valid, but I haven't given all of this the deep thought it requires. So, I'm back to decision making, which is really hard right now.<P>Your clarification on the judgement/feelings stuff is great. It's brought some much-needed clarity.<P>Your question about if I can handle her answers to questions about her feelings is a good one. I think I can, but it's going to have to be on a day that I feel strong, confident, in control of myself. I still think my biggest fear is finding out that she has already given up on the marriage and is just waiting until after the holidays to announce it.<P>Thanks again,