HELP! I just don't know what to do.<BR>I just recently found the info on plans A & B on this site and realized that my W is in an emotional affair. <BR>She's friends with a guy she met on the internet who has similar interests as she. He's in NY, were in AZ. He's been out to visit and we've gone out there. There were some indiscretions (he kissed her when I was out of the room, she says she backed him off), but she spends more time with him (on the phone/computer) than with anyone else in her life. After the kiss thing, I wanted her to end the friendship. She talked me into accepting it, but I had one request. I didn't want them spending any time alone. She agreed with much protest. <BR>After reading about EAs and the plan A/B stuff, I realize now that I want their relationship to end. Currently, she is in counseling and seems to be learning that she has to work on herself with no regard for our 2 children or me. She told me last week that she's going to spend New Year's weekend in New York with the OM and his family, even thought she know that I don't want her to go. I'm planning to meet with her counselor to try to understand what her therapy is based on and what it's all about. <BR>My questions is...how can I even begin to implement plan A or any plan if she sees this guy as a friend who is not only harmless to our relationship, but an invaluable friend in her life? How do I explain to her why I think her relationship is wrong AND AT LEAST that her spending the weekend out of town with him is wrong (or damaging? or self-destructive? or ...?). The article I read on plans A and B assumes that the spouse is aware of the fact that he/she is having an affair. What do I do in this case? Then again, am I being reasonable? Is this an EA? I think so, but right now, I'm not sure of anything.<BR>Thanks in advance, and bless all of you out there who take the time and have the strength to respond to the messages on this site.<BR>

Dear wld:<P>Oh gosh, another one. My H is in one too, and doesn't recognize it. <P>There's a guy here named Mudder. Search for his posts. He did a numbered one about rules he follows to avoid inappropriate involvements, and also a post on how to recognize the danger signals of an affair. There are plenty of other posts here too, I don't know how to direct you.<P>Welcome, and you have a problem. Keep coming here, read and post. Jim (NSR) has a post that includes links. It's very informative.<P>I also at first welcomed, then reluctantly tolerated, my husband's "friend". What a sucker I was.<P><BR>"Currently, she is in counseling and seems to be learning that she has to work on herself with no regard for our 2 children or me. She told me last week that she's going to spend New Year's weekend in New York with the OM and his family, even thought she know that I don't want her to go. I'm planning to meet with her counselor to try to understand what her therapy is based on and what it's all about. "<P>What kind of counselor is this? Her client is a married woman with kids. Of COURSE she has to consider the effect her actions have on all of you. Is this one of those "you have to go with your feelings, morals and conventions be damned" type of counselors?<P><BR>"My questions is...how can I even begin to implement plan A or any plan if she sees this guy as a friend who is not only harmless to our relationship, but an invaluable friend in her life? How do I explain to her why I think her relationship is wrong AND AT LEAST that her spending the weekend out of town with him is wrong (or damaging? or self-destructive? or ...?). "<P>You can't because she's in the Betrayer's Fog. Nothing you say will get through to her. She's right; your're wrong, and you're taking a pure an innocent and platonic friendship and making it seem dirty. (Ask me where I heard THAT point of view.) ANd you're willing to hurt other people because you are so selfish. How can your hurt this cyber-friend who she so innocently wants to go and see, someone who has so very much in common with her? You cad!<P>Pardon me while I mop up the sarcasm that dripped on my keyboard while I was writing this.<P>Can't tell you how to successfully Plan A. I am not able to do it.<P>There's a poster here named Wide Mike, his thread begins Nov. 27, he's in the same situation as you. A guy named limbo, I think, responded to him on his thread, same deal. Wives are going to New York around Christmas. Could it be that all the wives are e-mailing the same guy? (Sick and feeble attempt at humor, sorry)<P>------------------<BR>Belle, Domestic Goddess<p>[This message has been edited by Bellevue (edited December 14, 2000).]

Welcome <B>wld</B>...<P>Thanks for the heads-up <B>Belle</B>...<P><B>wld</B>.... I have a post of general welcome I wish to share with you... <P>It has a lot of quick links to many of the <B>most</B> important MB sites...<BR>Click here ==> **edit** <P><B>About your post</B>...<P>Your situation (as Belle said) is so similar to ... <B>Wide_Mike</B>'s post...<BR>...check it out and see <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum30/HTML/000517.html" TARGET=_blank>Ready for Plan B?</A> .<P>How for more on Plan A...<BR>see <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum30/HTML/000176.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A - 101 (2nd ed.)</A> !<P>It (Plan A) <B>IS</B> hard...<BR>...but not as hard as divorce!<BR>...from first hand experience... I can attest to that!<P>Learn all you can...<BR>...starting at my **edit** <P>Stay here...<BR>...many will help you!<P>There is the all evasive "unconditional love" on this forum and it's members...<BR>...use it ...take it ...be nurished by it!<P> <P>Jim<p>[This message has been edited by NSR (edited December 14, 2000).]

Even if she doesn't admit it is an EA - I'd Plan A like crazy. If she'll discuss your relationship, or at least things she likes about the relationship, or things she doesn't, that gives you a clue. If you already know what her needs are that's even better I think, but in any case find out, then try to make as many opportunities to give her those things she needs or the EA will turn into more, like my W's did. It starts with a few little lies of ommission, then straight out in your face lies about her, him and them.<P>Pay close attention to how you treat her. For me, this was my downfall. I often was distracted during conversations, consumed with work, and selfish in complaininng about my needs, without understanding that if I meet her needs, she'll then feel better about meeting mine. Think about your love busters (LB's): angry outbursts, annoying habits, honesty (or lack of), and disrespectful judgements. First thing to focus on is your own behavior, and stop LB's. Then try to discover AGAIN what she likes and wants in order to be happy.<P>From my own experience, now 12 months past discovery of the EA of my W w/ coworker, another serious mistake is being "needy" when NOT NEEDY is exactly what is so attractive obout the OM. He basically has nothing to lose, nothing at stake, so he can be fun, w/out demands of any kind, and expects nothing, except maybe a new friend or fling of the week. I hope you'll be able to keep your cool, it was difficult for me and anyone in your situation, but it is most unattractive to seem needy, demanding or just sad & pitiful. It may be how you really are, but it is not what probably is going to win her back.<P>Then I'd say, as long as she won't admit it is an EA, then don't try to get her to stop to contact him yet. Try to coax her back into time with you with enticing activities - things she really likes - movies? sports? nature? time together alone? Whatever it is that brought you close in the first place can work again. <P>Good Luck...Lonely Boy<p>[This message has been edited by LONELY BOY (edited December 14, 2000).]

Do not let her go alone to spend New Years<BR>with the OM and his family. This is madness.<BR>You must go with her. The chances of physical<BR>intimacy are great since you know he kissed<BR>her behind you back previously. If she goes<BR>alone and has sex with him, you may never<BR>get her back.

Yep, same here. My W had a brief EA in Oct./Nov. but wont admit that's what it was. However, my discovery and ending of it was enough for her to say I've robbed her of her independence and identity.<P>We certainly has some legitimate 'control' issues, that I'm trying to work on (see Other Topics) and I'm Plan A'ing as hard as I can. Only time will tell if it will work. My advice to you is to go ahead and tr too.

Bellevue - Thanks for your insight and the tips. As for the counselor, I don't know if she's actually leading my W down this road, or if my wife is only hearing what she wants to hear, or what? I hope to meet with this counselor soon and try to get the picture a little better.<P>Jim - The "General Welcome…" link didn't get me there. I'd love to see the page/site though. Could you drop me the URL? I just read the stuff on Wide_Mike's post. Holy cow this is close to what I'm going through. Although this poor guy has to deal with her being gone for a month. My Ws only planning a weekend, and that is going to seem like an eternity (you can count on finding me here a lot for support over that New Year's weekend).<P>LONELY BOY - She's given me some ideas in the past of what she needs, but it seems vague to me (one of the things that ticks her off about me). I'd love to get more out of her, but it seems to me that when I start asking her questions about her/us, if she thinks I'm doing it to "work on our marriage" she gets mad. That scares the hell out of me. As for how I treat her, I don't think I'm pulling this one off yet. I gotta work on it. <P>Bryanp - I can't stop her. And I won't go with her. I agree it doesn't make sense, but she's determined and nothing I do or say will change her mind. On the advice of some friends, tonight I asked her not to go on her weekend with the OM (it dawned on me that, while she knows I don't want her to go, since the night she told me that she has decided to make the trip, I haven't actually said, "Please don't go."). Her response was that she wouldn't even consider my request.<P>Thanks to all four of you for caring enough to respond. But wait, there's more...<P>I told her I was going to talk to a couple who are close friends of ours. They have a beautiful marriage, they love both of us, and I value their opinion. She said she does not want me talking to our friends about our problems. "The details of our lives are none of anyone else's business," she said. She said that if I need to talk to someone, talk to my counselor, or the Rev. who married us (a close friend and great counselor). I told her that, while I do plan to talk to the people she suggested, they aren't available all the time. And that our friends are just the kind of support we (I) need right now. So, I talked with them. Tonight she asked if I had and I said, "Yes." She got MAD. Did I blow it? Should I have respected her request? Did I LB? She said that my talking to them embarrasses her. I believe and understand that. If I were doing what she's doing, I'd be embarrassed too! Please don't misunderstand. I'm not trying to cut her down. I love her. I JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY SHE'S DOING THIS. Especially when she seems to understand that no one else, not even our closest friends would ever agree with or support her in this decision.<BR>

I think it is very interesting that it is<BR>your wife who is trying to control you by<BR>dictating which people you can talk about<BR>your problems with. I think your take on it<BR>is right on in that she is embarassed by her<BR>actions. It is clear that she is going no<BR>matter what regardless of your feelings.<BR>I do not know if the following suggestion is<BR>feasibile but here goes: Contact the wife<BR>of the OM and tell her of your uneasiness<BR>with the situation in addition to the fact<BR>that her husband kissed and made a pass at your wife previously.<BR>Hopefully she will be with him most of the<BR>time when your wife visits and will not let<BR>him out of her sight. I know this sounds<BR>drastic but you have to do something. I <BR>wish you luck.

So sorry...<P>...I can't believe I had that bad link...<P>...oh well... it works now...<P> **edit** <P>Jim

Jim (or anyone for that matter),<BR>Any thoughts or ideas on my last post.<BR>Also, I'm still strugling with the concept of plan A. After reading <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>the article on Plan A and Plan B</A> several times, it sounds like I should be negotiating with my wife to end her EA. But even suggesting to her that it is an EA will send her through the roof and invalidate her feelings. She believes that it's a solid and important friendship. So, do I negotiate anyway, if so how? And if I don't negotiate, what do I do? Again, she tells me she's not working on our marriage, she's working on herself.

Dear wld:<BR>"I don't know if she's actually leading my W down this road, or if my wife is only hearing what she wants to hear, or what?" Aaah, I never thought of that. Selective hearing. <P>"I hope to meet with this counselor soon and try to get the picture a little better." Very smart. Please post and keep us updated on that meeting.<P>wld, while she's in the fog, she doesn't care what she does to you or how it makes you feel. This is a crisis, in my opinion. I understand the feelings of fear, panic, anger, desperation. If you tell her that your marriage is in crisis or is a "non-marriage" she will deny the first part and blame you for the second part. <P>That she doesn't want you talking to good friends who have a good marriage and love you both, and finding support, leads me to believe that she is ashamed of her actions. <P>Now she has to face people who she can't accuse of trying to "control" her, people with a good solid marriage, and see her actions through their eyes. <P>My priest told me it is a mistake to go through this without leaning on others. He ordered me to find a confidante, unburden myself. I hadn't wanted to admit to anyone that what appeared to be "the ideal marriage" was foundering. It helped though.<P>Have you considered counseling with the Harleys? We are currently seeing a counselor, so I don't want to talk to another one, but I agree with their principles.<P>Would your W ever go to a marriage renewal weekend like Retrovaille?<P>And, have you considered going on medication to get through this rocky period. (I finally did after over a year of trying to do it "on my own".)<P>Cyber-hugs.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Belle, Domestic Goddess

Belle,<P>She's famous for selective hearing, thinking, acting. Why do I love her so much when she's so…so…well…you know. While I don't have the answer, I know I love her.<P>The meeting with her counselor is next Thursday, the 21st. My wife will be there. What should I say/ask? Before you read on, please think about an answer (so my ideas don't cloud yours). Here's what I've got so far. My primary focus must be on her, "What is your plan for my wife, and how do you plan to get her there?" as opposed to, "How are you helping my wife so that our marriage gets better?" I'm also planning to ask, "On what principles or who's work/research do you base your therapy? Is there a book based on these concepts that I can read, so that I can get a better understanding?" Also, "How do you define marriage, and do you consider the fact that your client is married when planning therapy?" So, am I doing OK here? Should I omit anything? Did I omit anything that you (anyone) can add?<P>Thanks for understanding my feelings of fear, panic, anger and desperation. Because right now I'm feeling fear, panic, anger and desperation! This sucks, I'm really sad today. As far as my telling her our marriage is in crisis, she knows that, but doesn't seem to care. <P>I agree that she's probably ashamed of her actions. But if that's true, why does she still do it? I did not take the decision to talk to our friends lightly. I knew she didn't want me to, and that it would embarrass her (which in turn makes her mad at me, trust me less, and withdraw more). But I really felt that it was important. She says she's not trying to deny me support in this tough time. She's OK with me talking to my friends at work (with whom she doesn't interact), my counselor, the priest who married us (and is one of the most valued people on earth to me). I'd love to get all of our friends on board for love, support and prayers. But that would crush her. But I thought, and still do think, that talking to this one couple was reasonable. But I am VERY concerned about her reaction to my talking to them. Do I need support? YES. Should I be avoiding love busting? YES! So how does that all fit together?<P>I was thinking about Retrovaille, and we went on a Marriage Encounter weekend a couple of years ago. I could ask her, but she seems so focused on her, not marriage, not me, only her. I don't think she'd go for it.<P>I've thought a little about the meds. I'll probably talk to my doc about that sometime, but not right away. I'm bummin, but copin.<P>Thanks for the hugs, right back at ya.<P>Bill<P>Oh, and one more question for all of you. Should I take her to the airport? Send her off with love? Or should I send a message that I don't support her decision to go and tell her she's on her own getting there?<P>[This message has been edited by wld (edited December 15, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by wld (edited December 15, 2000).]

Dear wld:<P>I read your post but want to think about it before responding. Am hustling with last min. Christmas stuff and packing. So no comments just yet. Soon.<P>Meanwhile, I hope wiser heads post to you. There are some very sharp people here.<P><BR><P>------------------<BR>Belle, Domestic Goddess

wld, I did some more thinking. Your questions are really well thought out. I wish I could add something to help. <P>My advice, (which I myself can't follow, even with the aid of medication) is not to blow up, lose your temper, be sarcastic and insulting. That would be Love Busting. It will give your wife the excuse to say that you don't love her. What to do instead? I don't know. There's a woman here who used three phrases a lot: "I see. I understand." and I forgot the third one. <P>By the way, her husband filed for divorce. So though those phrases are good tools, it's not foolproof. <P>Ugh, I hate this. I don't like being in a marriage that's in crisis.<P>Wish I could be more help. Keep posting. Try other forums because sometimes people don't hang around in just one forum. And good luck. I won't be on the Boards until after Christmas.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Belle, Domestic Goddess

OK, so I'm plan A-ing and I'm feeling the benefits (for me). She's still somewhat distant, but I've only been at this for about a week (I know... Patience is a virtue and the root of all Plan A-ers). The problem is that I'm starting to get nervous about this trip she's going to be taking to meet the OM over New Year's. That weekend is going to <B>S-CK!</B> If you've been through this, how do you cope with "The Trip?" I told her this morning that our kids and I would take her to the airport, which was very hard to do. <P>I guess I'm just looking for some ideas on coping and some support, trying not to snivel. <P>Comments? I'm also looking for feedback on my last couple of posts to this thread.<P>Thanks in advance.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Bill<BR>Remember the truth that once was spoken, "To love another person is to see the face of God."

Dear wld,<P>I am so sorry for what you are going through now. Waiting for this trip must be excruciatingly painful.<P>My own situation was quite different. My wife carried on a long affair in secret, and it ended when I found out. I have thought very hard about these issues, but I really can't tell you what would be right or wrong, in terms of influencing your wife. Only you can judge that, and even so, you might get it wrong. Ultimately, she is in charge of her life.<P>However, you are telling us how upset YOU are about her trip. You indicated that you told your wife that you don't want her to go.<P>Have you articulated to her why? Have you told her what you are feeling? Your letters express fear that you will lose her, jealousy over their relationship, resentment over how the cards are all stacked against you (you must be a husband, father and wage-earner, he can merely focus on intimate communication and love), and worry about your family. And you seem to believe strongly that you should not share your wife with another man.<P>What are you really feeling now? So many things, I imagine, that it must be almost impossible to put them into words. But you must. You need to be clear with yourself about what YOU are feeling, and about what your own bottom line is.<P>And then you need to express your feelings, at length, to your wife. And you must be extremely sensitive to her at the same time. These conversations might be the hardest things that you will ever do. And they cannot be short, even if she doesn't want to listen, and you find it hard to talk.<P>I would guess that she will insist she can do whatever she wants, that you can't control her, that this is her life. (Only guessing). And she is right about that. So don't issue threats and demands. But do tell her, repeatedly, how you feel about this. And to do that, you must be very clear in your own mind and heart, about what you feel. Don't say, "I demand that you not go," for example. But do say "I have already felt so cut off from you, so lonely and jealous, just because of your communication with OM. But imagining you alone with him on vacation hurts so much more." (If words like that truly express what you are feeling).<P>This approach has the advantage that she CANNOT do this while hiding from the emotional cost. You make no demands, but she is not allowed the luxory many wayward spouses indulge in, of pretending that they aren't hurting anyone. She will probably still go, she will probably argue with you and deny everything you are saying, but inside she won't be able to hide.<P>More importantly, you will be establishing your voice in your marriage, and doing so with dignity and self-respect. Since you have promised to take her to the airport, I suppose that you should follow through. But your actions are not compatible with the words you write to us on this forum. You are saying that you can barely imagine living with her going on this trip, that you view it as wrong, and yet you have promised to help her.<P>I think that you should think clearly about your bottom line here. Not "Go, and I divorce you tomorrow." (Unless that is, truly, your bottom line and you are prepared to follow through. Most of us would advise against it). But how about, "I am deeply hurt by this trip, and it violates MY OWN beliefs about what is right and what is wrong. I can't stop you from going, but I will not do anything to help you, my wife, develop a relationship with another man. You have to do that for yourself."<P>I know that this seems to violate some people's views of Plan A. But if your wife asked you to make reservations for her and OM in the honeymoon suite of a hotel, would you do it? Would you imagine that helping her out would somehow increase her love for you? Instead, it would probably just help her lose what little respect she has left for you. <P>She will have to make her own decisions. I have thought for months about my wife, and what she did and went through. I might even understand some things about herself that she doesn't see. But I cannot change her, and she knows far more about herself than anyone else. And even if I could change her, what would that give me? Someone under my control, not my life and my love. So I slowly learned to argue about my own feelings and wants, while still respecting hers. And that has given her the space the change and grow. In our case, we have grown closer, and our marriage is now thriving. But she might have chosen otherwise.<P>I wish for you wisdom and courage and patience.<P>StillTrying

StillTrying,<P>You post has given me a lot to think about (damn you and thank you).<P>I have told her in the past how I feel about her relationship with the OM. I did not go into the details of my feelings this time. It's clear to me that she sees this relationship as a safe and valuable friendship. I'm worried that if I explain my position, that her relationship with him is bad for us, she'll take that as me disregarding her feelings and disregarding that which is important to her. But what you're saying also makes sense (hence the "damn" above, meant with humor and respect). I think I'm also afraid that she'll tell me that my feelings don't matter to her, which may be true, but I don't want to hear it (I know if that's true I should hear it, but I really don't want to).<P>How can I tell her my feelings, "You're in a relationship that's destroying our marriage and hurting you, the kids and me," and still be sensitive to her feelings, "This is a valuable and harmless friendship"?<P>"This approach has the advantage that she CANNOT do this while hiding from the emotional cost."<BR>I don't think she's hiding from the emotional cost. I really think that she's so focused on herself that she has convinced herself that anything she does that hurts me is my problem, that she should take no responsibility for it (she may even be getting this cr-p from her counselor).<P>"Since you have promised to take her to the airport, I suppose that you should follow through. But your actions are not compatible with the words you write to us on this forum." <BR>My decision to take her to the airport (which I'm still struggling with) was based on the idea that I send her out of town with as much love as I can (instead of mean spirited resentment). But I see your point, it does seem to contradict my feelings.<P>"But if your wife asked you to make reservations for her and OM in the honeymoon suite of a hotel, would you do it?"<BR>I know that's a rhetorical question, but I'll answer it anyway. No. But a request like that clearly states and admits infidelity. She believes I'm trying to deprive her of a good friend. It's a belief made in the fog, but real to her none the less. My goal is to get her back to an emotional state of trust. Trust in me and trust that our marriage can be satisfying. If she gets to that point, then and only then will she be able to see the damage of her relationship with the OM (I think).<P>I'm thrilled for you. And while it looks like I'm batting down your ideas, please understand that they have been thought provoking and VERY welcome. Feel free to bat back. <B>THIS IS WHAT I'M LOOKING FOR!</B> Someone to give me alternatives. Your post, at this point has had the effect of solidifying my thoughts on this (although I plan to give all this A LOT more thought and that may change).<P>Please keep an eye out for my posts, and keep us in your prayers.<P>Thanks, and again, all posts are welcome!<BR><P>------------------<BR>Bill<BR>~~~~<BR>Remember the truth that once was spoken, "To love another person is to see the face of God."

Dear Bill,<P>It sounds like you are thinking very hard about this one. Do you have many close friends to confide in? (I know that you talked to one couple). Their support could be invaluable for you. I don't know if I would have made it without my sister and my therapist.<P>I am going to bounce a couple things right back at you. Just my opinions, and not necessarily right for your situation:<P>--"How can I tell her my feelings, "You're in a relationship that's destroying our marriage and hurting you, the kids and me," and still be sensitive to her feelings, "This is a valuable and harmless friendship"?"<P>--> You are not presenting your feelings here, nor hers. You are judging your wife's actions, and the consequences of those actions for other people. And she is countering with her own judgement. You might believe that her relationship will destroy your marriage (I would almost certainly agree with you). But that is an idea, a judgement about the world that you share. As you said, she thinks differently. <P>However, if you tell her, "Each time you contact OM, it feels to me like a knife is turning inside me. The loss, jealousy, pain are so intense," then she can't argue with you. (Assuming that your statement does reflect what you really feel). Those are your feelings, and that is just the way things are.<P>The difference between the two statements is enormous. Before the two of you can make any agreements, or resolve this crisis, you must each understand the other. And that means you must express who you are and what you feel. Not hide behind impersonal statements about the situation. Wayward spouses, in particular, seem often to dehumanize and hide from any real contact with their spouse, because it is too painful for them to see what they are doing. Sometimes it seems that the worse they feel about their actions, the more hostile or withdrawn they become.<P>I have found this process extremely difficult. I tend to think hard about a situation and then advocate my position by stating and arguing for the ideas I have developed. But in an emotional, crazy situation (like any affair) that approach simply doesn't work. Reading the section about disrespectful judgements in Survival After an Affair helped clarify my thinking tremendously.<P>Let me share a personal example. But beware, it comes from a time more than a year after the affair ended, and so might have very little to do with your own life. My wife had saved things from OM. For months she was adament that she would not destroy them. I tended to avoid arguments, but finally I laid down a demand that they go, or I would feel it necessary to divorce. And we almost got divorced, and just pulled back at the last minute. After letting the issue rest, months later I talked to her and told her how I felt about her keeping those things. She argued for a long time, and seemed to feel that I was again demanding that she destroy them. But instead, I repeated over and over how I felt about them, and why I felt that way, and asked if we could work together to come up with a solution. An hour after the discussion she called me and told me that she had thought about what I had said, and that she agreed, and would destroy them. I was deeply impressed and touched by her ability to think about my feelings and needs and question her own beliefs. I suppose that is part of why I respect and love her so much. But if I hadn't begun to change my own approach and my own way of looking at things, she might not have had the space to change too.<P>-- "I don't think she's hiding from the emotional cost. I really think that she's so focused on herself that she has convinced herself that anything she does that hurts me is my problem, that she should take no responsibility for it."<P>--> She might say that and act like it, but I would guess that she doesn't like to consciously hurt you. The louder she protests, the worse she might feel inside. But whatever she feels or does, you need to get your own feelings out on the table. In a respectful, considerate manner.<P>And to listen to her. What is she really feeling? Calling this a friendship is just a label, a way for her to justify it. Have you asked what she feels when she talks to him? What she hopes for in this trip? What the thought of losing him makes her feel like? (Could you handle the answers if she told you honestly?) Have you asked about what she has felt was missing in her life? About her hopes and fears for herself and for your children?<P>I don't know if she will answer any of these questions, nor if anything would come of it. But it might be a start. She is acting out of a deep compulsion now - rationalizations and ideas are just a smokescreen, as much for her as for you. (Wild guessing here on my part. Judge for yourself).<P>--"My decision to take her to the airport (which I'm still struggling with) was based on the idea that I send her out of town with as much love as I can (instead of mean spirited resentment)."<P>--> Do show her as much love as you can. Do not withdraw from her. I agree completely. But can't you do that while standing up for your own beliefs? If you do so respectfully, she might not be very happy about the car ride, but she could end up respecting you for your independence and firmness. More importantly, you would end up respecting yourself. But you must stand up for your own beliefs in a way that is neither hostile nor judgemental ("I know that you see this as just a friendship. I can't judge what it means for you. But your relationship with OM hurts me, and violates my own deeply held beliefs about the sanctity of a marriage. I can't stop you. You are a free person, and I wouldn't want you to be anything else, because I love you. But I won't help you further your relationship with him. I couldn't respect myself if I did") I am sorry for making up speeches here. I don't know what you should or shouldn't say, I am just thinking of examples, to try to make myself clear.<P>When I found out about my wife's affair, she wanted one last time to see OM, before cutting all contact. And I felt, in my uttermost self, that I could never actually agree to that. But she was so insistent, and so distraught. I became physically ill from the shock and stress. But I told her that I didn't feel that I could agree to that, and she ended it with a phone call instead. I can't tell you how hard that week was though, when we were making this decision, and how many times I have looked back, and felt relieved that it turned out as it did. I didn't know it at the time, but my own self-respect was on the line. And her respect for me, perhaps. If she had gone, I couldn't have stopped her. Don't know what I would have done. But to have given my assent would have destroyed an important part of me.<P>I didn't have any fancy speeches then. I was operating in shock, guided only by love and my deepest beliefs about right and wrong.<P>You are in my prayers.<P>StillTrying<P>

Dear Bill,<P>One more thought. After you get your own feelings out on the table, and really listen to her, you still have to decide what to do. You seem to be in a box right now - either she goes alone, or she doesn't go. I see why you have set up the situation this way. But there are lots of other possibilities. You ought to explore them together.<P>For example, you could go together, but then she would cut off contact afterwards. Or you could go together, but stay somewhere else, and visit them briefly as two families. Or you could offer a trip somewhere else altogether, somewhere that she would love to go. Or ...<P>The point is that, after you both express what you are feeling, (aand that is a huge process), you still need to make some decision together, one that is acceptable to both of you. In the long run, no contact will be necessary, but deal with one crisis at a time.<P>I wish you well.<P>StillTrying

StillTrying,<P>You've given me a lot to think about, thank you. As for the speeches, don't apologize. Sometimes the right words are impossible to find, and yours have been very helpful and thought provoking. I think my depression today is partially because of that (no, I don't blame you for my depression). I've found a course of action that I've been following based on thoughts and ideas that seem valid, but I haven't given all of this the deep thought it requires. So, I'm back to decision making, which is really hard right now.<P>Your clarification on the judgement/feelings stuff is great. It's brought some much-needed clarity.<P>Your question about if I can handle her answers to questions about her feelings is a good one. I think I can, but it's going to have to be on a day that I feel strong, confident, in control of myself. I still think my biggest fear is finding out that she has already given up on the marriage and is just waiting until after the holidays to announce it.<P>Thanks again,

Good news!!! Well, kind of.<P>I met with my wifes counselor today and she's a great lady! I've had visions of her (based on my wifes actions/comments) that she was advising my W with no reguard for me our our kids. Nothing could be farther from the truth. This counselor is big on family and has advised my W that her dicisions and actions directly affect us.<P>Now the bad news. My wife is making cr-ppy decisions even under the care a seemingly wise and good counselor. Damn!<P>But this does shed some new light for me.<P>StillTrying, <BR>I think I was resistant to some of your ideas because I was afraid that if I'm telling her one thing, but her counselor is condoning her behavior, in my Ws mind there would be no grounds for my feelings. Clearly this isn't the case. The counselor says she's told my W that she can and does see big problems with the current coarse of action. Know that somehow makes it easier for me to address her behavior (in a loving caring mannor) with some honesty on how she's making me feel, how she's hurting me.<P>Thanks, keep us in your prayers!<P>------------------<BR>Bill<BR>~~~~<BR>Remember the truth that once was spoken, "To love another person is to see the face of God."

Dear Bill,<P>That is good news. I hope that the next few weeks turn out well for you. <P>In the aftermath of my wife's affair, I spend months thinking, "If I do this, then she will respond in that way - no good. What about if I do this other thing? ..."<P>I burned out. I was so afraid that any wrong move on my part would send her back to the other man. It took me nearly a year (and a very good therapist) to stop that pattern, and to begin making my decisions based on what I felt was right or wrong, what I needed, and what my wife said she needed, not on my fears or on my attempts to control the situation indirectly.<P>You have the hardest job I know of now. After many months of doing everything to save our marriage and our family, I had reached a point where things looked very bleak. And I told myself that I would try to live so that I was proud of the way that I lost my family. (If that makes any sense). Only a few weeks later everything began to turn around.<P>I wish you well,<P>StillTrying

After I met with her counselor I was so pumped. Today I'm soooo down. My W and I talked last night. I told her how her planned trip makes me feel, "angry, sad, deeply hurt." I also reneged on my offer to take her to the airport. I told her that I didn't believe in what she was doing, that it hurt me profoundly and that I couldn't deal with the possibility of doing anything that sent the message that I condone her decision. This morning as I was leaving for work I said, "Have a good day, I love you," which we've said to each other every morning for 7 1/2 years. Her response was "Bye." I think she's made up her mind. There's nothing good about any of this. She's hurting me, our girls, herself, even the [censored] she's spending New Year's with. I think my marriage is over. I can't deal with this. It hurts so much.<p>[This message has been edited by wld (edited December 22, 2000).]

Dear Bill,<P>What a painful response. Do you have a friend to talk with? Please don't try to do this all alone. Maybe even a counselor for you would help.<P>But what you told her about the car ride sounded so clear, so firm, and yet respectful. Be proud. You are in a bad place, but acting well.<P>There is nothing I can say to ease your pain. Don't hide from it, it is real. I have never experienced another pain like finding out about my wife's affair. Far and away the most traumatic, terrible event of my life.<P>But there are a few things you need to remember, to help you plan what you will do. They won't ease your pain, but might help you choose your actions.<P>(1) Your wife is not acting rationally or compassionately. But what she does right now might not destroy your marriage, no matter how much it seems that it will. My own wife had a long affair with my best friend. She got pregnant by him, and had the baby, pretending that it was mine. She pleaded with him to divorce his own wife, so that they could start a new life together. And when I found out, and her affair ended, she told me that she came home only because she had no where else to go. That he was the one person in the world perfect for her, and that our own marriage had been a mistake. And yet ... now her predominate feeling for him is anger. Our marriage is deepening each month, she tells me that she loves me, and turns to me when she is hurt. We again share the joy of raising our children. My youngest child adores me and I adore him.<P>I still can't quite process how our marriage ended up as badly off as it was two years ago, nor how it could ever have been restored to the point it is at today.<P>I can't promise you anything. Indeed, only good fortune, or divine help, seems to have given us the chance that we needed. That, and close friends who stood by each of us. All I want to say is that, bleak as things are now, neither your marriage nor your family is necessarily over. Maybe, or maybe not. If you can focus on the long term picture (and that means years), then you have a good chance of restoring and healing your marriage, or at least of seeing it end in a way in which you know that you tried your best, and about which you can feel proud.<P>(2) Your wife didn't tell you that she loved you this morning. I really don't know what is going on with her, or with you even. But I would guess that she is extremely upset and confused. My wife began her affair in secret, and did not have to confront my own pain until much later. Anything your wife says to you is as likely to reflect her own confusion, or guilt, or anger at herself, or projection of her own fears onto you, as it is to reflect her long-term feelings about you. Her world is in turmoil, she doesn't see any good way out, she is trying to define her own identity, and doesn't know which way to turn.<P>Somehow you need to hear her, and be compassionate and loving and empathetic. You need to be there for her, and be respectful. And to do so while clearly stating your own feelings, and sticking to your own moral code. My guess is that you feel like she is erecting a wall between you. I have felt that. Most painful feeling I know of; worse than the betrayal itself. But somehow you must avoid withdrawing yourself, if you want to preserve your marriage. Be firm about not driving her, but be loving, respectful, and 'present.' Just because you won't support her visit to see him doesn't mean that you shouldn't listen to her own fears and desires. You are making your point. Perhaps you can give her space to hear her. Painful as it will be to hear her, you need to talk as much as possible.<P>You can probably feel the pressure building when you are together. It can't go on forever. In a secret affair, there is less pressure. Now, you can be sure that something must happen, maybe in days, maybe in a few months. Hang on.<P>(3) A small thing, but it took me months to notice. Will she look at you, look into your eyes when you talk? Do you hide your eyes from her? Only in the aftermath of my wife's affair did I notice how little we each looked at the other. And at that point I began, consciously, to look into her eyes again as we talked. It took awhile for her to look back, but that was the real beginning of intimacy. Her eyes are beautiful; a window into her soul. And just that contact, alone, helped me begin to connect with her again. A year and a half later, I still find looking into her eyes while talking to be deeply satisfying.<P>May God bless you and your wife and family,<P>StillTrying

Dear Bill,<P>Hi! Me again. One last thought.<P>I realized pretty quickly that one of my own wife's deepest needs was intimate conversation. (That wasn't too hard; most of her affair was conducted by telephone). And I wanted to restore a marriage in which we would each be extremely happy. So I have tried to learn how to really listen and converse, not just about the intellecual or political topics we used to share, but also about our inner lives. Not easy, but very rewarding. And it sounds like your own wife must have the same deep need. So perhaps the painful conversations you are having and need to continue with will help build the foundation for a rewarding relationship for her with you. The most difficult thing is listening to what she has to say without exploding, or without condoning what you cannot accept. Somehow, I sensed intuitively that I needed to make it safe for her to tell me anything, and she pretty much did.<P>I wish you well,<P>StillTrying

StillTrying,<P>I can't thank you enough for your thoughts and your time. You've helped a lot. <P>I did tell her several times last night that I love her. Even as I was telling her that her actions hurt me, I'd say "I love you." At the advice of her counselor, I also told her that I believe her decision to make this trip is damaging to our marriage and our family. I was hesitant to do so because this was judgmental. But the counselor said that it's vital that my W doesn't go without some understand of the negative effect her decisions are having on all of us. I realize it's LBing, but I tried to say it in the most respectful way I could. My W got angry that I was saying that her trip hurts our kids. I don't blame her. I know this may not have been in line with a lot of the ideas expressed here, but it seemed to make her think a little.<P>You hit the nail on head with your take on her being upset and confused. Especially after talking with her counselor, that's more apparent that ever.<P>As for her eyes, wow. I do usually look into her eyes when we talk, and she often looks back. With daggers sometimes, but she looks back. The funny thing is that her eyes are one very deep source of her problems. She grew up with very crossed eyes and thick glasses. Kids didn't even want to sit next to her on the bus. But one of my favorite physical features of her are her eyes. They are beautiful.<P>I'm feeling much better as the day goes on. I can't believe how deep the emotional swings are dipping for me right now. Last night after I met with her counselor, I was so up I felt like I was on a high (and enjoying every minute of it). Then this morning I felt so hopeless. I do, however, believe in what I'm doing and am proud of myself. Last night she said that she feels like I'm dumping all of our problems on her. I told her that I take full responsibility for my mistakes over the last several years, but that my goal now is to work on me and our marriage. I told her that I will respect the physical limits she's asked for (no asking for hugs, holding hands, sex isn't even an issue at this point), but that I would LOVE it if she could put aside one night a week for us. I just want a night to play games, go to a movie or dinner (the stuff we used to do). She said she'd consider it.<P>Thanks again for the support and prayers.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Bill<BR>~~~~<BR>Remember the truth that once was spoken, "To love another person is to see the face of God."

Dear Bill,<P>I still go up and down, years afterwards. If you expect drastic mood swings, it is (slightly) easier to manage them.<P>I hope your weekend goes slightly more easily than these past few weeks have gone.<P>StillTrying

She's leaving in 2 days for out-of-town visit with OM. I'm getting very down. How should I treat her when she leaves. I already told her that I won't take her to the airport, because, while I love her and will support <I>her</I> any way I can, I will not support this action/decision. Thoughts? Ideas? She's made it very clear that she won't reconsider her decision to go on this trip. What do I do now?<P>------------------<BR>Bill<BR>~~~~<BR>Remember the truth that once was spoken, "To love another person is to see the face of God."

Dear Bill,<P>I am sorry that you are still facing this painful situation. It took a long time to build to this moment, and will probably take a long time to resolve.<P>Have you ever experienced this level of pain before? I was new to it, and can only imagine what you are going through. Do you have friends or a therapist to help you? I needed all the support that I could get so that I could remain stable enough to support my wife through our recovery, rather than make things much worse by adding my own fury to the mix.<P>I never dealt with a situation like yours. I do have a few ideas, but these are just my guesses. Trust your own instincts.<P>My guesses:<P>(1) Do not cut yourself off from your wife, or punish her by withdrawing emotionally. Aside from the boundaries that you are drawing (no car ride, no acceptance of her relationship with OM), offer her love, attention, and a safe place to listen. She might end up needing you very much, and you want her to know that you are there for her, even if you don't support what she is doing.<P>(2) You will be at home with your children, right? I would recommend frequent phone calls to her to talk about your family. Just because you don't support the trip doesn't mean that she still isn't your wife, or the mother of your children. If she is cold or unresponsive on the phone, don't linger or drag out the conversations hoping for a change, but do end them lovingly and politely. Have the kids talk to her. Describe their days to her. Talk about your days, share what you have enjoyed, and ask her for (a) emotional support or (b) advice, if appropriate. Don't ask if she has done anything with the other man, but do be prepared to listen respectfully to anything she chooses to tell you. If you don't like it, tell her how much it hurts you, but don't beat her up verbally or insult her.<P>(3) Have you agreed to protect some cover story of hers? I don't think that you should try to enlist other people to use against her, but I also feel that it is wrong to lie to protect your wife from what she is doing. Many other people will disagree with me, and I can't say that I have been completely consistent on this issue myself. But I would recommend having her explain this trip to your families and friends, and to other man's family. And if the reason that you are not accompanying her comes up, I wouldn't lie about it. Maybe discreetly avoid it, or maybe say that you don't think they should be visiting. I don't really know. Protect your own sense of integrity, while trying to avoid harming your wife.<P>(4) Basically, she has got herself into this situation, and won't get out until it becomes too uncomfortable. She might flip/flop a lot. She might become very unpleasent. She might change suddenly and come home. I certainly can't guess. Somehow, you have to be ready and supportive when the time comes, and ride out all the unpleasentness. Remember, she will probably say and do some very cruel things, but they don't necessarily reflect anything about her true self. She is in a confusing mess now, and probably is so buffeted by conflicting emotions that she has no idea what she really wants or believes. And she might project all her anger at herself onto you, or maybe she will become depressed, or maybe she will shut down and try to hide from things.<P>Remember, this situation is inherently unstable. Be loving. Stand up, respectfully, for what you believe in, for who you are. Protect your children. And don't stabalize the situation for her. (Some people here do, and the affair goes on for years of suffering, and they just take it). One way or the other, something will snap. If that something isn't you, then you can help your wife through this.<P>And to make sure that that something isn't you, take care of yourself. I started exercising, looked at my parenting skills, changed a lot about my own life, to try and become the person I wanted to be. <P>I will be thinking about you.<P>StillTrying

Still,<P>You thought and ideas are helpful. We did discuss the "story" to our friends and family. We've had a New Year's party every year for the past several and I've decided to go-ahead with it even though she won't be here. I told her that if (no when) people ask where she is and what's going on, I'd tell them that she is in New York this weekend. If they ask further I'll tell them that we're having some problems, ask for their prayers and leave it at that. There are some close friends that I can talk to (people she doesn't interact with, like friedns at my work) and I agree and understand that our mutual friends shouldn't be let in on the details (concern for their judgement of her and her actions).<P>I like the idea of calling her. I wasn't sure if I should do that or not, but I think I will.<P>As for me and my health, I'm going on a day hike tomorrow (the day before she leaves) with some friends from work, and I'm thrilled about that. I'll be with friends that I can talk to and the exercise will be <B>GREAT</B>! It'll be much better hiking in the desert all day instead sitting at work/home letting this eat away at me.<P>Thanks again for your care/concern/thoughts/ideas/prayers/... It means a lot to me and helps a great deal.<P>Merry Christmas, Happy New Year, Happy Hanukkah, Happy Holidays! <I>I know, happy is a relative term right now!</I>

I am not sure if I asked this previously but<BR>have you contacted the OM's wife and told her of your concerns? I believe if she is aware of your concerns then she will make sure that she is always with her husband. What do you<BR>think?

DANGER, DANGER, DANGER<P>Take from one who's going through hell now because of an internet initiated relationship. Read my post under Ready for Plan B? DON'T let her go. No time for more now. **edit** Mike

Bryanp and Wide_Mike,<P>Thanks for your input. <P>Bryanp, I haven't talked to his wife, and am not sure if I should. He and his wife are, I believe, seperated. But, he lives in her house in the basement. Although I believe she's a decent person and wouldn't agree to his relationship with my W (I do still believe this is an EA not a PA, but I know anything's possible) I don't think she gets herself involved in his personal life. I do think that if I get her on the phone when I call out there to check with my W, I may talk to her a little about the situation.<P>Mike,<BR>I have no choice. She's made this decision and she's going to follow through with it. I can't make her stay. The only thing I could threaten her with is divorce and I don't want that. I do, however see the danger in this. I don't trust this guy any farther than I can throw him...hmm now there's an idea! I talked with him at length when he was out here several months ago. I told him that I believed that my W and I belong together and that the best thing for both of us and our kids is to stay together. He agreed! I told him that I have big problems with their relationship, but that if he was going to be her friend, THEN BE HER FRIEND! Even at the cost of their friendship. In other words, if their relationship threatens our marriage in any way, I expect him to cut it off, to do what's best for her! He promised. I didn't trust him then, and now I can see that I was right. He's using her. She doesn't see it, and he might not either. But it's clear that that's what's going on.<P>------------------<BR>Bill<BR>~~~~<BR>Remember the truth that once was spoken, "To love another person is to see the face of God."<p>[This message has been edited by wld (edited December 27, 2000).]

wld:<P>I’ve just had a chance to read your whole story. If you end up going through what I’m going through, get ready for the wildest roller coaster ride of you life! My heart goes out to you. And although I’m not the religious type, my prayers go to you, too. StillTrying is giving you excellent advice in my opinion, but I’ll add some of my own for what it’s worth.<P>If she has a PA while she's there, YOU WILL SURVIVE IT. If you react like I did, you will feel betrayed, angry, resentful, lost, revengeful and feel you must do something. Don't act in haste and don't act from any of these emotions. God, I know it's hard. But you need to do the right thing for your family and UNDERSTAND what is happening.<P>I, too have gone through incredible emotional swings while waiting for my wife to leave. Until the last minute, I held out some hope that she wouldn’t go, but she did, and has now been gone for 2-1/2 days. I haven’t heard from her and don’t know what she’s doing. You may find this hard to believe, but I am now very calm about it. I realize, as StillTrying says, that I can’t control her. I can only control what I do. This has brought me some peace. I have let go of anger, resentment and thoughts of revenge. What helped me do this is the realization that she wasn’t doing this TO me, if you know what I mean. She admitted that she was being selfish, but there’s much more to it than that. She is an addict.<P>By the way, have you bought and read “Surviving and Affair” by the Harley’s? It’s available on this website and probably your best resource for understanding affairs. I would think that it’s available at some Christian bookstores. That book and this site have helped me tremendously. The book describes affairs as addictions. That is how I have come to view my W. My counselor told me that an addict (WS) knows the consequences of the addiction, but will pursue the drug (A) anyway. A drug induced fog is the result, and you will find references to “the fog” a lot on this board.<P>When I learned of my W’s PA while she was on vacation last May, I was devastated. As she was driving back (3 days) I slowly began to sort of forgive her, but I didn’t know about MB and its principles. My W didn’t see any changes in me and her affair continued on line. She spent almost every night talking to the OM via instant messaging. It drove me crazy and she was very secretive about it. Whenever I tried to discuss it with her, she just told me to mind my own business. I tried to reason with her, which of course, didn’t work. As StillTrying says, you’ve got to focus on yourself and not point fingers at her.<P>Might want to read “Tough Love” by Dobson. It gives good advice on giving your W space. Here’s a quote from it that I found particularly insightful:<P>“Long before any decision is made to "fool around" or walk out on a partner, a fundamental change has begun to occur in the relationship. Many books on this subject lay the blame on the failure to communicate, but I disagree. The inability to talk to one another is a symptom of a deeper problem, but it is not the cause itself. The critical element is the way a husband or wife begins to devalue the other and their lives together. It is a subtle thing at first, often occurring without either partner being aware of the slippage. But as time passes, one individual begins to feel trapped in a relationship with someone he or she no longer respects. <BR>Now we begin to see why groveling, crying and pleading by a panic-stricken partner tend to drive the claustrophobic partner even farther away. The more he or she struggles to gain a measure of freedom (or even secure a little breathing room), the more desperately the rejected spouse attempts to hang on. <BR>Perhaps it is now apparent where the present line of reasoning is leading us. If there is hope for dying marriages, and I certainly believe there is, then it is likely to be found in the reconstruction of respect between warring husbands and wives. That requires the vulnerable spouse to open the cage door and let the trapped partner out! All the techniques of containment must end immediately, including manipulative grief, anger, guilt and appeasement. Begging, pleading, crying, hand-wringing and playing the role of the doormat are equally destructive. There may be a time and place for strong feelings to be expressed, and there may be an occasion for quiet tolerance. But these responses must not be used as persuasive devices to hold the drifting partner against his or her will.”<P>Before I realized what this meant, I would try to badger her about the A. I remember almost chasing her around the house trying to rationalize what she was doing and lecturing her on the consequences. She would say angrily, “Don’t you think I realize that?”<P>After I read that and the stuff on MB (around Thanksgiving time) I tried to behave differently. I focused on how I was communicating with her. I am quite sure W feels a lot better about our marriage and me now. But changes of this nature take time. I had a counseling session with Steve Harley and he told me that, on an emotional level, W projects future based on the past, and you need time to build the past. I have another session scheduled with him tomorrow, and I know you can get telephone conferencing on short notice from him. You might want to consider it. Worth the $95 in my opinion, but don’t expect any magic bullets for your current situation.<P>I think we would already be divorced if not for MB and some of the advice I’ve been getting on this site. I know that my wife still loves me, but is now trapped between the addiction of the A and her love for me, our family and our way of life. And the best I can do right now is show her that I understand what she is going through and create the past that she needs to project the happy future. <P>Here’s a few things I'm doing to try to change myself:<P>…I began to really LISTEN to her and RESPECT what she was saying. There were so many messages that she had been sending me over the years that I just didn’t get. She once told me she felt browbeaten and pushed down. At the time, I had no idea what she meant. After all, I had always let her do what she wanted. Now I realize that I often just didn’t listen closely enough and basically imposed my own view of things on her. I can be very good at winning arguments, just ask any of my remaining friends.<P>…I began to CONVERSE with her, instead of lecturing. Part of conversing it understanding and I tried much harder to UNDERSTAND how she feels. As my counselor said, when your W comes to you with a problem, she wants understanding and empathy first. My impulse was always to solve, solve solve. <P>…I try to get her into all the rooms of my house. By this I mean that we men tend to compartmentalize our lives. One room for work, another for recreation, yet another for wife and family. I now consciously try to get her into all the rooms. See article “Why women leave men” on this site.<P>One big caution: don’t compare yourself to the OM. It simply isn’t an issue. I did that immediately after I learned of the affair and tried to change into something I’m not. It lead to a loss of self-respect and W immediately detected that I wasn’t me anymore. <P>How will my situation resolve? I don’t know. I guess I’ll find out at the end of January. What I do know is that I do not want a divorce. And you know what? I don’t think my wife does either. She loves me and my son and understands the consequences of a divorce. <P>I also refused to drive her to the airport, and she understood. I told her how I felt about her leaving me to have intimate relations with another man. I told her I could not share any of her experiences with her and therefore she should not call me. I told her she could certainly call S, but so far she hasn’t. I told her that I did not want her to bring any pictures or mementos of her trip into our house. I told her that she could not spend any of OUR money during the trip. On the other hand, I am sending her daily reports on what we are doing so she remains connected to her family. The reports don’t/won’t contain any pleading to come back or other attempts to manipulate her. They will be simple news reports.<P>I am focusing on my relationship with my 16 year old son right now. I hope to set an example for him in how to behave during this, the greatest crisis of our lives. In any case, I will survive this, and so will you.<P>Mike<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Wide_Mike (edited December 27, 2000).]

Mike,<P>You should be <B>very</B> proud of yourself. It sounds like you're dealing with an extremely difficult situation with grace and wisdom. It's difficult to turn the "mirror of judgement" that guys like you and I shine on other people (or at least I know I do), to ourselves. I believe it's one of the keys to fixing my marriage, and it sounds like you've already done a great job of taking a long hard look at yourself.<P>Thanks for your insight. It helps tremendously! Several people have written great things for me here. I need to and plan to go over all of it many times. I, by the way, am the religious type. I think I'm in pretty good with God, so I'll give him a heads up for you (that means that you and your family are in my prayers). I have read your posts (maybe even replied to a couple) and I can see that the lessons you and I learn will be valuable to each other.<P>As for today...she left. I kissed her goodbye at 6:00 this morning. I'm sad (strong and doing OK, but sad).<P>I'll be checking back here several times over the next few days. If anyone who reads this can think of a word or two of support, it would be very welcome. It's going to be a tough weekend.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Bill<BR>~~~~<BR>Remember the truth that once was spoken, "To love another person is to see the face of God."

wld:<P>I really, really understand how you're feeling right now. As you know, my W left on Christmas day. I've gone through a lot of emotional swings in the last few days, but right now I've settled into a state that can best be described as calm. Maybe I'm somewhat detached and numb, but at least I'm not in pain.<P>One caution, you said<P>..."I need to and plan to go over all of it many times."<P>Sounds like you're the technical type like me who has something close to an instinct for planning. You know, flow charts, If statements and the like. Resist that! I did some of that "If she does this, then I'll do that." It can drive you crazy! Not to say you shouldn't have a plan, but don't do it by yourself. Here's where you need professional guidance.<P>The advice, by the way, comes directly from Steve Harley during a session I had with him only a few hours ago.<P>Before my wife left, I gave her a letter. It said that I love her and wanted to reconcile, but her return to our home was contitional. The conditions were:<P>....End your current extramarital relationship for good and take steps to insure that it is really ended.<P>....Participate wholeheartedly with me in learning how to respect and love one another again through the Marriage Builders (or similar) program.<P>....Provide me with evidence that you are free of sexually transmitted diseases.<P>If she decides she couldn't meet these conditions, then I asked her to please find another place to live.<P>This simple plan was endorsed by Steve. When I said, what if she this and what if she that, Steve said, stick to what is in front of you and deal with it a piece at a time.<P>Bill, I know what you're going through right now. YOU WILL SURVIVE THIS. And, if God wills it, you and your family will end up better off for it.<P>Mike<P><BR>

Hey Bill,<P>Happy New Year. Give us a post and let us know how you're doing. There are people here who care...<P>Mike

Mike (and all),<P>Happy New Year!<P>It's been a tough weekend. She called each day. Sometimes she was nice and seemed caring, but other times she seemed cold and distant. I spent a lot of time wiht our girls and tried to keep my mood from screwing up my time with them. At first it didn't do a very good job of it, but I got much better.<P>Right now I'm feeling VERY scared. She's coming home tonight, and I'm worried that she's going to ask for a divorce. I've thought about that a lot and realized that I don't know how I should handle that if it happens. My gut tells me to stay calm, tell her the idea hurts me and...then what? Any thoughts?

Dear Bill,<P>I found that not knowing where our marriage was headed was terribly frightening. I constantly thought through possibility after possibility. You must have had a very rough time these past few months.<P>Do you have plans to welcome her back lovingly? A nice dinner? Decorations? A video for the kids to watch while you talk? (I have no idea what you two like).<P>And divorce? I don't know what your wife will ask. If you can gently draw her out and listen to her decompress from her trip, that action alone is probably the most important thing you can do, for her and for yourself. And it might not be easy, and can't be forced.<P>When my wife asked for a divorce, we both knew that it was so serious that we talked and talked and talked for almost a day. I didn't argue that we shouldn't. Instead, I agreed to go along, but told her that I felt it was too soon (after her affair) for us to know what was right for us. She also talked to friends, who were very helpful. And I offered to split everything (money, child care) 50/50.<P>By the end of that twenty-four hours, our whole marriage had turned around. Of course it often doesn't work out like that, but seriously considering divorce together, and having your wife know that it is a realistic option, that you won't hurt her or be vengeful, and that you still want to be married, but are willing to end it, might have a tremendous power to reassure her that your marriage is safe.<P>I wish you all the best,<P>StillTrying

Dear wld,<P>I haven't been able to get onto the Boards because school was out and our S was at home. I just followed the whole thread. <P>How did her return go? Are you okay?<P>Maybe I'm just stating the obvious here, but if you two had to cook up a cover story about her trip for friends, how can she tell herself it is an innocent, platonic friendship? If she were leaving for example to sat by a sick or dying relative, or help clean house for a sick relative or care for children, there would be no need to agree on a "cover story". Nobody would look askance at such a trip.<P>Again, my heart goes out to you. I don't know how you survived her trip emotionally. You must love her very much.<P><P>------------------<BR>Belle, Domestic Goddess

Still,<P>You thoughts on how to deal with a divorce request (which hasn't happened yet) make a ton of sense. Thanks,<P>Bell,<P>She got back early this a.m. We haven't been together yet really at all (except asleep). I'm dreading tonight and what might come. But thanks to y'all, I think I'm prepared.<P>And you're right. She drives me nuts sometimes, but I love her with all that I am. She's strong, can be so loving. Yes, I do love her.<P>Wish me luck tonight.<P>------------------<BR>Bill<BR>~~~~<BR>Remember the truth that once was spoken, "To love another person is to see the face of God."

Bill,<BR>my thoughts and hopes are with you. I have been Plan A ing since just before Thanksgiving. Hers is also a EA but with the internet and people she meets there. She meets and cybers with several men a night, some leading to phone sex. She says I am nuts, paranoid and I need to see a shrink but I KNOW what she is doing. Changed the 2nd phone line number to unlisted so I can't monitor (I work out of state) the extent of her being online. Opened her own account and won't share password and refuses to discontinue service. I KNOW she is chatting and sending naked pictures. After initial LB when I found her out, been going by the (SAA) the book. Her outward mannerisms suggets we are working it out ( Im her only one, she loves me, etc) all the while lying to my face. I will keep on Plan A and hope it wins her over. I know she has booted out one lover cause he couldn't meet heer emotional needs so i have confidense if I stay the course I will prevail. I hope you do too.<P>MrB

She's talking seperation now. I've posted a thread about it in General Questions. You can see it <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/007078.html" TARGET=_blank>here</A>.<P>I told her I don't want to seperate, but that I'd think long and hard about it, and I asked her to let me know if she decides to.<P>She said she didn't want to make that decision alone.<P>I don't know what to do.<P>------------------<BR>Bill<BR>~~~~<BR>Remember the truth that once was spoken, "To love another person is to see the face of God."

Paln A is protecting your self and separation may be part of it for financial security. She is passing the decision onto you because they cant make the decision because of the fog.<P>Either go ahead with it cos it may scare her enough, or then again she may hold you too it. In the end if she wont agree or make the decision be prepared for her to through it back at you.<P>They want the control but cant make the decisions