Dear Lost and Hurt,

I looked for a thread you might have started, but did not find one. I have put a number of ideas from Boundaries in Marriage in this thread. Could you post a few ideas of Page? I would not expect M to mind your posting some of your problems here, as well. I have posted a number of ideas on this thread for M, and I am not sure how much more I might have further.

Or you miight want to post a thread something like, "Thinking about Plan B," which should invite a diversity of options and opinions. Or, "When to start Plan B?"

Blessings

<small>[ April 17, 2004, 06:44 PM: Message edited by: Whaler ]</small>

My goal is to save our marriage. I want the husband and best friend I had for the past 15 years prior to 1/06. He was wonderful, warm, affectionate, loving. I don't know if he's gone forever.

I keep giving him chances. My most recent "chance" is he is gone for 2 weeks, I figure this should give him some "space" to think. I will see how he acts for the first week after he comes home, hopefully we will go to counselor for parenting session and if things don't turn slightly, I am looking for him to recommit to the marriage, cut contact with other women then I may very well call his boss.

These interactions are happening on company time. I have held off on this step because I know my husband is going to go through the roof and I have a feeling he may start divorce procedeeings.

I feel like he's playing a game with me and if I don't play right then he will throw it in my face that he was going to try but I screwed it up.

Do you undestand?

Mine is Am I in Plan A. I should change it to Soon I will be in Plan B. Thanks a lot.

Yes. I am having a bad time today too. The adultery seems to be the least of our problems, and I am at my wits end.

I guess I am back to square one. Just pray for him and go on with my life. No phone calls, no visits or invitations to visit. He can give me a call when and if he decides he wants to be married.

I could go on with my life if I didn't have my beautiful daughters whom love their Daddy so much and do not know what's going on.

H is using them as his shield. He keeps saying he is still here in the house for them. I know part of that is true, but I also know that my H doesn't want to have to go through a divorce and lose the house and everything in it so that's where he's coming up with the live together and lead seperate lives. H also knows I will do whatever it takes to keep my girls happy, even at my own expense. He is taking full advantage of that.

How do I set my boundery with him to stop contact with other women and work on the marriage?

I have told him I will not tolerate him contacting these other women. But what does that really mean besides a bunch of words?

When we talk about him moving out he automatically says "Fine, we'll get a divorce then, sell the house, split everything up and I will see the girls whenever I want. You want to make this difficult". See, he knows the last thing I want to happen is for the girls (and I for that matter) to lose the house where they have a beautiful yard, nice neighbors and to move to some tiny apartment and to not live with their Daddy. He's got me backed into such a corner. I tell him there's an option where everyone will win and that's for us to work on the marriage. He disagrees, he says he'll lose.

H says that for every article I read how divorce is bad for the kids and can find one where staying married is bad for the kids <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I emailed him MB's article regarding divorce and children, he won't read it.

It's not like we're a fighting household, we arn't and never have been. It's a very peaceful one. I mean we've had our disagreements, arguements here and there don't get me wrong. My girls are the most happy, well adjusted kids and a divorce would send them spiraling down and my H just does not see that.

I guess you can just keep hanging in there. Most WS's do come back to the marriage. In the meantime, just take care of your girls and yourself. Do nice things for you.

I think it is important for you to get your needs met somewhere. It could be women friends, hobbies, or other activities. But you need to save your strength, and keep your self-esteem.

Dear M,

I have reservations about telling others about the EA.

It is true that you need to use words to set boundaries. But by dividing up who owns which part of the problem, you can fashion logical consequences.

Let us suppose that we can define a problem as that H is having an EA at work.

This reminds me of a time when I suspected that my wife was having an EA and I suspect, a PA, with a married man in the neighborhood. My children and others let me know that my wife was spending a lot of time in friendly conversation with OM. I was working extra hours at a salaried job where extra hours were expected. My wife and I had agreed on my taking the job, but she had not anticipated my being away so much, although she still desired the prestige that came with the job. I approached my wife and asked her to cut back on her talking to the OM, as I felt the relationship was getting out of hand. My wife agreed verbally, to cut back, but I also talked to the OM, personally, and just allowed myself to sound a little nutty, like a good person to avoid, for instance. Things seemed to calm down, and the guy has moved out of the neighborhood. My wife never admitted more than an EA.

You seem short of money. So expensive options seem to be limited.

You seem to be reluctant to move to an apartment with our duaghters. Cloud and Townsend would say to get comfortable with your fall-back options. I have a folder on my desk titled Cheap Digs. When things are looking bleak, I start calling around to find features in apartments, and compare shop. It makes me feel better to know what my otptions are.

Telling H's boss would be one power play. That idea indicates your are a direct, solution oriented person, which is a nice person. I congratulate you for your good character, but I will make some other suggestions, that are more devious, and may be more surgically precise.

Perhaps you heard the story of the man who rose quickly up the corporate ladder, achieving Vice President at age 30. He rose by learning his boss's job, updating his boss's resume, and sending out his boss's resume for better jobs. When his boss got a better job, the man was ready to step into his boss's job. He then repeated the process.

I would suggest that you get more information about OW. Get her asked out for date, and get her new job offers. Maybe get H another job. Complaining to the boss may be the best idea, but I can envison a number of consequences of your input that might adversely affect the situation, and I don't see your being able to control what happens. How tough is it to get her phone number and have single guys call her up. If you go out to a club, have her number to give out to guys you think she might like. Even tell the single guys why you need them to work an this gal. Even get the single guy's phone number to follow up withthe guy to see how he is doing with OW. With H out of town, this would be the ideal time for single guys to be calling up OW. Is OW married? I think having someone inside the company to give you some information would be helpful. I'm not sure H's boss is the right guy to approach. Perahps a married receptionist or phone operator.

But really that is all extra, and should only be done if you are comfortable with it. It is not your job to solve your husband's problem that he allowed to get out of hand. (Boundaries) You mentioned reducing contact with OW. Can H change jobs? This is his problem, and he ought to be the one to solve it. Can you relocate? Is your house and pastures more important than relocating and getting your husband back? Boundaries recommends that the complaining, or unhappy, spouse look for things to actively improve or change. What else can you imporve or change, related to getting H away from OW?

If I were to recommend who to talk to, I would suggest talking to the family members of OW, and ask them to find OW a man, other than H. You can drive around with your 2 daughters, or get a baby sitter, and collect info on OW. There is no law against collecting info on someone. It does not appear to me that you believe that H has cut it off with OW at work.

My wife will not read either. She mostly refuses to listen to tapes or CD's. But she will watch telvision with pictures. My wife and I watched the Boundaries in Marriage video again last night, and fell asleep with the tape playing. If H will watch TV with you in the common areas of the house, you might get a security gate to close, to keep your daughters up stairs, except with your opening the gate, when you need privacy in the house. Or maybe you have a better system for privacy in the common areas of the house? Alarm bells on the girls doors? When I was at the Video store, I say DVD on sale for Kama Sutra and Kama Sutra Vol 2. These are Eastern secrets in becoming enchanting. One of my past mentors spok with respect about the Kama Sutra. Maybe ther is wisdom there.

There is supposed to be another Clound and Townsend Video being released soon, on another book thy did, I belive the Title is PERSONAL GROWTH.

One easy way to set a boundary, is to follow the Golden Rule. Acknowledge an area where you yourself could do better for the marriage, and devote some energy toward improving that part of yourself to improve the marriage. Each complaint that H has, must have a corresponding aspect of self-improvement. If he won't tell you which one type of self-improvement to pick, pick one for yourself. You could go to a used bookstore and find a book for $0.25 that is on self improvement, or whatever seems to be the cheapes and most appropriate. You could get a self-imporovement book from the library.

Then tell H what area you are trying to improve, and how, and mention that you would apprecite his cutting back any chance of contact with OW. There are different formulas for boundary loving spouses, than for boundary resistant spouses. So when you make the request of H, you probably should pretend that you believe he has ended contact, but just ask him to try to be even more extra distant from OW.

In re-reading this post, my ideas seem more random and unconnected than coherent and applicable. I trust your wisdom to sift through and see what might be helpful.

Blessings.

<small>[ April 18, 2004, 07:02 PM: Message edited by: Whaler ]</small>

I am not sure who the girl(s) are anymore. It's complicated. See, these things are happening 6 hours from here in a town where my H overnights for work.

H has since cut me off from seeing the cell bill by doing everything online and it's password protected. This month is the first month I don't have access to it. As of last month the 2 girls he was involved with prior (and I contacted) he was not calling any longer but there was a new number from the same town that he called a lot!!. I have called this girls cell phone many times and left messages with my number and she hasn't returned any calls.

How can he expect me to agree to sit back, live in the same house and just let him continue with this "single" life he is creating?

Dear M,

If you have been checking up on H, you might try the approach of not checking, which is in the 180 Degree Divorce Busters.

On the other hand, if the girl is not calling you back, there may be something there, and it may be worth the time or money needed to check out the number, or hire a private investigator to check out the number, or other information you have. Do you have a brother, or any men in your support circle? Have a guy call her, see if she answers.

But if H is willing to participate in counseling, parental or whatever, and he is willing to talk about his marital complaints to the counselor in front of you, and you can keep your cool, and not verbally blast him, you may wish to rely on the counseling process to bring some maturity to his life. To your marriage.

In the mean time, you might just work on making things better for your marriage, best you can. I have tried to be diplomatic toward you in making suggestions for changes you might consider for yourself, and for your approach to various aspects of married life. You might make an offline list of your options for making married life more enchanting for H. You might go back over everyone's suggestions, and references, as you have time, while H is away, to see if there is anything subtle you can add to your list of options for increased enchantment.

Marriagebuilders suggests avoiding Love Busters. But ideally, we should be encouraging to our spouses, and even creating an enchanted household for our spouse. You might tap the wisdom of the MB posters by posting a question in General Questions requesting ideas for a wife to create an enchanting household for a suspected wayward husband. You might also check out a book, "The Five Languages of Love" Growth Track to be sure that you are not just avoiding Love Busters, but reaching up to Encouraging and Enchanting.

Establishing Boundaries can perhaps be simplified into processes this way:

1. Examine youself. Look for boundaries that your spouse told you about, or that you have figured out yourself, and see if there are ways the you can better respect your spouse's boundaries.

2. Look at your overall goals and values. List these out in a loving way.

3. Define any problems. Prioritieze the problems.

4. for a few important problems, forumlate changes in actions or attitudes that you would like your spouse to change.

5. Formulate a presention to y0ur spouse in the most loving and considerate way possible, and in partiular acknowledging any actions that you yourself should work on.

6. Select a suitable time, and present your ideas, in a loving yet directly confrontationl manner. A Loving Confrontation.

7. Give your spouse time to adjust.

8. If the problem persists, look for ways that you are extending valuaed privileges to the spouse who is resisting change, and see if you can logically withdraw soem of your extensions, as a further loving confrontation.

This is my current level of understanding of Cloud and Townsend.


Holding a direct vison and request is good to ask for what you want, Most directly, I think you would like H to work toward being open with you about his contacts. That would mean asking H to conduct himself in a manner in which no electronic trails were created, that he felt he had to keep secret from you with passwords, etc. But since he has said he feels emotionally divorced from you, that formulation, asking him to avoid or minimize secretive contacts, is probably too advanced.

The idea of H thinking about the appreciation his daughters will be showing him, as, in the future, he walks each daughter down the aisle when they get married. The idea of the daughters showing their appreciation of Dad, for all he does. Logically, this also brings in Mom, and how H treats daughter's Mom. So the non-awfulizing phrases I came up with were, "I hope our daughters realize the value of your contribuiton to their futures." "I hope our daughters appreaciate all you do for them." "I hope you will make the decisions that bring you honor in the eyes of our daughters." "I see our daughters growing more appreciative of their father every day." The idea being that if H is going to have the best relationship with his daughters, he cannot be dishonorable to their mother. By envisioning H becoming more appreciated by daughters, H should treat Mom better.

I am going to be jammed up over the next week, so I may not be responding as quickly as ordinary, but I'll get back, at least after Sunday.

Blessings

<small>[ April 20, 2004, 09:23 AM: Message edited by: Whaler ]</small>