Hi. I have been living with my boyfriend for 3 years out of our 4 year relationship. I am 29 and he is 36.<P>It is very depressing to read that 85% of couples living together don't last in marriage. We've discussed marriage a great deal and have both tried to build a healthy relationship that will lead to marriage when we are financially ready. But herein lies the difficulty. <P>I am the sole financial support of the relationship. For the first three years, I've tried to be supprtive as my boyfriend attempted to establish his own career. But now I find that I'm dissatisfied with what I percieve to be a lack of ambition in regards to career.<P>Now, this is a good man. Since I work, he keeps our home clean, makes dinner, fixes odds and ends, is caring and loving and this is why I stay in the relationship.<P>But I am angry and fearful of the day when I am not able to financially support him and our family. We've discussed my concerns but he thinks I worry too much about the future and I believe he doesn't think about it at all. <P>He tells me he's "trying" and that I should let him take things at his own pace... but after four years of this I've lost my patience and faith.<P>This is going to be the deal breaker in our relationship. I'm so angry and bitter these days that I can't stop my angry outbursts and belittling and mean comments.<P>Is this relationship doomed then?

Gosh, it seems rather harsh to call this man a bum. Not that I want to get all defensive, but he does work, he pays his half of the rent... what worries me is that he barely scrapes by and seems content with that.<P>It seems that the gender roles are switched here. If I were a man, there would be no problem here would there?<P>When I confont him, he seems willing to do whatever I need from him... he's taken on additional work and has begun preperation for a certification program that will give him a start in a career. But he's resentful that I PUSH so hard.<P>I gues you kind of hope to get some sort of answer from these things, but in the end I'm just going to have to wait and see how things turn out. It doesn't seem right to leave just yet... but boy am I getting ready.<P>Thanks for the input.

As the primary breadwinner and a woman, I'm not surprised at your reactions. Most women have always been told that the men in our lives have to be smarter, earn more, be taller, more gregarious, etc. than us. Their role was to provide "Financial Support". My honey is a wonderful support person but not a superior money go-getter. <P>A long time ago it irritated me until I realized that the only reason it irritated me was because of all the 'supposed to's. So I took a step back and looked at everything he does for me. He buys me flowers at the grocery store, every time he goes shopping. (I dislike grocery shopping) When the laundry baskets full, he'll do a load of laundry - sorted properly! When my car needs an oil change - he does it. He cheerfully helps me rearrange furniture whenever the mood strikes. Etc, Etc… In other words, he provides excellent Domestic Support.<P>And you know what? I discovered that I like Domestic Support. No, I love Domestic Support!!<P>Plus, I know that I'm good at what I do and would always be able to bring in more money than my sweetie. So my advice is to look at why this irritates you. If it is because of social constructs, chuck'em!

You wrote: "We've discussed marriage a great deal and have both tried to build a healthy relationship that will lead to marriage when we are financially ready."<P>How is being married going to be any worse financially than living together? <P>You also wrote: "But I am angry and fearful of the day when I am not able to financially support him and our family."<P>I would encourage you both to pray to God. And if it is in God's plan for you to marry<BR>God will show you. <P>I would also like to say that maybe you need to take a step backwards... Why are the two of you living together without a marriage commitment? Are you just practicing to see if you are compatible? It clearly states in the Q&A column of "Living Together, Before Marriage" that living together before marriage does not prepare you for marriage. And that in fact it seems to be more destructive to a marriage than anything.<BR>Maybe your answers would become more clear if you no longer live together and form a relationship as only boyfriend/girlfriend and keep it simple. Leave all that pertains to marriage to learn when you are married!

How is being married going to be any worse financially than living together?<P>*** Well, there's the cost of the wedding for a start. Also, marriage means a home and children to me. I'd like to prepare myself for these things and make sure my partner is prepared as well.<BR> <P>I would also like to say that maybe you need to take a step backwards... Why are the two of you living together without a marriage commitment? <P>*** Well, honestly, I thought this relationship wasn't going to be serious. We moved in together becuase we were both actors who needed to move to New York. I was pleasantly suprised to find the relationship grow into something truly worthwhile.<P><BR>It clearly states in the Q&A column of "Living Together, Before Marriage" that living together before marriage does not prepare you for marriage.<P>*** Well, I'm afraid I didn't consult marriage guides before I made this descision.<P><BR>Maybe your answers would become more clear if you no longer live together and form a relationship as only boyfriend/girlfriend and keep it simple.<P>*** Realistically, that would mean the end of the relationship. You can't go back to holding hands.<P> Leave all that pertains to marriage to learn when you are married!<P>*** Wow. I thought that by posting my message to this board that I would recieve mature and constructive feedback.<P>Anyway, since the original posting my boyfriend and I have discussed the matter further. He understands my needs for financial stability and is willing to do what he can to make me happy. I can't really ask for more than that.<P>Just because some website claims that my relationship has an 85% chance of failing, I don't believe that's enough reason to discard it. Thanks everyone for your input.<BR>

li:<P>One thing that might help you and your boyfriend is to order Harley's "Four Gifts of Love" book from the website. It's for engaged and "just-married" couples, and it explains the MarriageBuilder "Four Rules" concepts very well. It also will help you step through your relationship with your boyfriend to examine expectations and to learn how to meet them together. It's well worth the price---it's often used for pre-marriage classes.<P>The 85% is a depressing statistic (seeing that I lived with my wife before marriage, I understand your issues). It's based on widely-available data, so I'd encourage you and your boyfriend to learn the marital behavior skills embodied in the MarriageBuilder techniques and stay in that 15%.

<Leave all that pertains to marriage to learn when you are married!><P>*** Wow. I thought that by posting my message to this board that I would recieve mature and constructive feedback.<P>I am sorry if this came across as immature advice. What I was meaning to say is that sometimes we can get ourselves so overwhelmed with worry over things that have yet to come. (Like what will it be like when we are married?) I would concentrate on your relationship with your boyfriend and try to build from that one day at a time. <P>I am happy that your boyfriend is so understanding to your financial need and he is willing to fulfill it as best as he can. That's what it will take to keep a strong relationship. I encourage you to read relationship books together and go from there. Again I am sorry if I hurt you. <P>

It seems from my quick scan of your situation that your significant other is just not hearing you on a realistic level. When you tell someone that you're upset about a situation for four years and all he can do is condescendingly ignore your concerns, I think you'll find that after you're married he'll be equally if not more dismissive of your feelings. We lived together before marriage, and everything I heard was true about the intensification of issues after marriage. When you're living together, whether you acknowledge it or not, there's a much weaker bond holding you together and the idea never leaves your subconscious mind that you can walk out if it gets too ugly. My advice is DO NOT get married until you've worked out this issue. And with all due respect to the more religious advice I read in this thread, God's not going to step in and save you - solve your own problems, don't wait for a miracle that will never come.<P>Good luck<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by li:<BR><B>Hi. I have been living with my boyfriend for 3 years out of our 4 year relationship. I am 29 and he is 36.<P>It is very depressing to read that 85% of couples living together don't last in marriage. We've discussed marriage a great deal and have both tried to build a healthy relationship that will lead to marriage when we are financially ready. But herein lies the difficulty. <P>I am the sole financial support of the relationship. For the first three years, I've tried to be supprtive as my boyfriend attempted to establish his own career. But now I find that I'm dissatisfied with what I percieve to be a lack of ambition in regards to career.<P>Now, this is a good man. Since I work, he keeps our home clean, makes dinner, fixes odds and ends, is caring and loving and this is why I stay in the relationship.<P>But I am angry and fearful of the day when I am not able to financially support him and our family. We've discussed my concerns but he thinks I worry too much about the future and I believe he doesn't think about it at all. <P>He tells me he's "trying" and that I should let him take things at his own pace... but after four years of this I've lost my patience and faith.<P>This is going to be the deal breaker in our relationship. I'm so angry and bitter these days that I can't stop my angry outbursts and belittling and mean comments.<P>Is this relationship doomed then?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

You have a good deal going since he does <BR>indeed clean and cook.I'm not much into <BR>structured gender roles,I think they are<BR>limiting and artifical for one thing and gender roles do not allow for much creativity<BR>either.<BR>If you were a man would you be upset about<BR>it? If he were a woman would you be upset <BR>about his staying at home?<BR>I do though believe that two people should<BR>work and support the family equaly,this is<BR>where I don't agree with typical Christian<BR>thinking,because it limits individuals too<BR>much.<BR>Ask him if he enjoys writing,something he<BR>could do at home.Computer work at home would<BR>be less threatening to him since he has been<BR>out of work for awhile.<BR>I don't think of him as a bum,he maybe just<BR>very confused about what career he wanted.<BR>Alot of people don't mean to live off of<BR>others,but they think it is ok as long as <BR>they come up with more excuses to not work.<BR>He needs to find what he enjoys.<BR>Gender roles kill men..so many of them work<BR>themselves sick and no one thinks of it,but<BR>when a woman is the sole profider the man<BR>always gets the flack.<BR>Take him and love him for what he is.Don't<BR>let sex roles and economics ruin a good <BR>relationship.<BR>I have a higher paying job than my fiance~<BR>but this does not enter into our love and<BR>relationship.I accept him for what he is,<BR>himself.Not all men are geared toward work<BR>and competition,just as not all women want<BR>to stay home.

Hi Li!<P>I just wanted to say that I understand having "marital problems" yet not being officially married. I, too, have been living with my boyfriend for 4 years. Though, I am not married and can't posibly fathom the immense "change" that marriage will bring. I have just recently recovered from an illness which lasted a full year and was nursed by my boyfriend both in and out of the hospital. But I guess marriage makes two people closer than when they are simply living together. Who cares if this man held my hand when the possibility of death was at hand. I guess I'll just have to get married to understand REAL commitment. <P>The 85% statistic is just that -a statictic - when taken out of the context of it's particular study - it's meaningless. I often chuckle to myself when statistics like the one above are thrown about with absolutely no referent. Often, these statistics are bandied about and used incorrectly. I don't believe that everyone of us living in sin mirrors the subjects in this particular study. <P>I'm sorry for the replies you have received. I think it's alienating in the very least. I want to say that I am willing to read your posts without putting you on the defensive for your "lifestyle."<P>oak

Hi Li!<P>I just wanted to say that I understand having "marital problems" yet not being officially married. I, too, have been living with my boyfriend for 4 years. Though, I am not married and can't posibly fathom the immense "change" that marriage will bring. I have just recently recovered from an illness which lasted a full year and was nursed by my boyfriend both in and out of the hospital. But I guess marriage makes two people closer than when they are simply living together. Who cares if this man held my hand when the possibility of death was at hand. I guess I'll just have to get married to understand REAL commitment. <P>The 85% statistic is just that -a statictic - when taken out of the context of it's particular study - it's meaningless. I often chuckle to myself when statistics like the one above are thrown about with absolutely no referent. Often, these statistics are bandied about and used incorrectly. I don't believe that everyone of us living in sin mirrors the subjects in this particular study. <P>I'm sorry for the replies you have received. I think it's alienating in the very least. I want to say that I am willing to read your posts without putting you on the defensive for your "lifestyle."<P>oak

This is directed to Oakland and li. I was married for 28 yrs and never lived with my now ex prior to marriage--back then it was very rare to live together prior to marriage. I am asking questions not to offend, but am just trying to understand the concept of living together. Is there any particular reason that you decided to live together without getting married, especially after 4 yrs? Who in the relationship has not wanted to get married or is it mutual? To Oakland--did your illness have any bearing on your decision? Have either of you been married before or lived with someone else, and if so , why did those relationships end? Are there any children involved? <BR>Thank you both for taking the time to answer my many questions.

Dear DB713:<P>I began my relationship with my boyfriend about 5 and 1/2 years ago. After simply dating for about 1 1/2 years, we decided to move in together. We were in love and both of us had real difficulty with the modern concept of marriage. We didn't marry. We saw most marriages weren't about mutual love, respect, passion, compassion and empathy. They were all based on the biological and or material gain that could be had from such marriage. We weren't pleased. <P>One year ago, I was desperately ill. I was in and out of the hospital and since my illness was tropical - no one knew what to do about it or me. They simply tried everything in the book. It was a horrible experience. My partner nursed me through this time. He bathed me and did all the gross things that only a person with an incredibly strong stomach or an incredible amount of love would do. I didn't know if I'd make it; he didn't either. He really made things better anyway. <P>The commitment my partner and i made to each other when we did move in together was a "forever" one. He has stood by me in sickness and in health more so than I believe many husbands would do. He did not abandon me when it was impossible for me to make deposits into his "lovebank." Strange, he stood by me with out the "official vows." <P>I do get a bit preturbed on this website because every living-in situation is not the same. Because two people have chosen to live together does not mean that they are necessarily the ignoramuses that many have chosen to paint them as. Some people don't just fall into living with someone and because of momentum never leave. Some of us actually have reasons for what we are doing. I understand the "roomate" notion that has been discussed on this site. Some folks who are living together have never had this experience. Some of us shared. Some of us actually worked together toward our future goals. Some of us had joint everything when we began. Of course, I don't believe that if a couple went the other way that they are necessarily doomed. I just want to say that we are not all the same.<P>I am going to be married though, (paridoxically) next year. The reason: my illness. We decided that if ever we were to deal with that kind of life an death situation again, it would be best to be considered "next of kin" to each other. I don't think I could handle having him leave again because only family is allowed after certain visting hours. You see, though, we commited to each other before all of this. The ceremony and the accutraments of marriage are a plus in many ways but the commitment is not in the ceremony, it is between to people, daily. So, we weren't married - maybe we will end up in divorce like everyone says. Who knows.<P>oak

li-<BR>I am a 28 year old female; my husband is 26. I am in your shoes, so to speak. My husband works on tips and I have an incredibly secure job with predictable pay (teaching). He has floundered through school, chosen multiple career paths and has settled on wanting to be a writer and waiting tables. He would be happy living paycheck to paycheck, I think. He's not much of a planner whereas I am. Neither of us are good savers or budgeters.<P>He has moved out primarily because he says I have not "supported him." Now, what sounds like a paradox is actually true. I too have harbored 6 years of bitterness and resentment for what I considered a laid-back attitude toward finances and career. But his ideals, differences, and dreams have gone unappreciated since they clash so significantly with mine. He claims to want a secure future, likes nice things, and hates running late on the bills. But he believes in his talent and living like Emerson or Thoreau. Many people I know also call him immature and irresponsible. So why do I bother?<P>The first thing you MUST do is to decide whether his lack of contribution is actually damaging your financial situation or if it is a pride/ego thing for you. If it is about how you feel or what is expected or "right", decide SOON if this is his problem or yours.<P> One thing I have learned from my husband is there is a difference between societal expectations and what standards YOU set for yourself. Are you upset because of some vague gender roles? Are you truly scared for your future or is it embarrassing to "support" your husband? (I only ask because that was one of the things I felt.) <P> You must decide if the reasons you cite for staying in your relationship are enough to keep you there and more importantly, rid you of your resentment. I speak from experience that your resentment will destroy any chance you have at future happiness UNLESS IT IS DEALT WITH COMPLETELY. I recommend reading Phil McGraw's Relationship Rescue or Life Patterns (I think that's the name). It will turn the mirror on to you.<P> One thing I have learned from this separation is that you can only change you. You may not be able to influence change in his values. He may worry more about the future after a medical crisis, when he hits 30, or after you stop belittling him and he decides on his own. Or he may never change. But you MUST choose to accept what you cannot change right now and that is him.<P> Imagine your life without him. Does only your financial picture improve without him? If so, is there, if anything, you can do to change YOUR attitude? What can you do to change instead of changing him? He told you clearly what he needs: time to do it on his own terms. If you cannot be patient, it may be time to reconsider the relationship before marriage. If you want to save this because you love him, I will tell you, you have a lot of work to do reevaluating your ideals and goals. <P>Some may say that I sound like a fool. I know my friends do. They all have husbands who work steady jobs and "take care of things." They (even their spouses) have questioned whether he is acting like a "man." I have questioned that too. And if he and I will have a happy future, there must be appreciation for both of our priorities. I beleive that will come in time. But it will take sacrifice on both sides.<P>Ultimately, I have decided that my husband has beautiful qualities that I love and would be lost without. I offer him financial security. He offers me so much more. My attitude: big deal. But that's what I've come to. I won't accept late payments on bills, not will I tolerate frivolous spending. But your husband doesn't do those things. We will renegotiate when our future dictates it (children, retirement, career changes) and if it dictates it. But I'm not concerning myself with what happens if I am unable to support him. I know he would step in--and I'm sure your husband would too. He loves you enough, it seems.<P>I wish you the best of luck. Keep posting and I will keep checking this site (which I happened onto by pure chance, boredome, and curiosity.) I am still struggling not to feel bitter or resentful myself. But I know I must if I want this marriage to succeed.<P>PS: We lived together before marriage too, and the same problems were there and nothing has changed. Should have dealt with them then.<BR>