Thanks Mom <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Love ya!

I like your list, Baba.
I think you've made some really good points.
Blaming cohabitation for marital problems may just be a good cop out in many ways, but with the extremely high marital failure rate, anything that improves one's chances should be considered.
But, to blame cohabitation for the failure when anything from your list can be blamed is silly. And I imagine the items from your list are far more common (with or without cohabitation) than issues that developed just because a couple lived together before marriage.

It's probably true that young couples who choose to cohabitate are messing up on at least one of your points. I'd be much more likely to blame youth or lack of communication for a failed marriage, with or without cohabitation, than not growing from a rental agreement to a full on committment after living together.

Smile

baba...yeah that list is accurate...but you forgot to add this phrase onto the end of each of those statements "and they lived together FIRST" (because for some reason....it makes a huge difference.) Statistics don't lie....there is a difinitive, measurable, correlation between living together before marriage and divorce. Explain that. Everything you mentioned can be the cause of a failed marriage....but for some reason and we are trying to examine why....living together first raises the risk of divorce even taking those things into account. What does that mean?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The report, prepared by CDC’s National Center for Health Statistics, focuses not only on individual factors but also community conditions associated with long-term marriages as well as divorce and separation. Based on interviews with nearly 11,000 women 15-44 years of age, the study also examines conditions associated with cohabitation, including the impact that pre-marital cohabitation has on marriage and marital stability.

"We've expanded our analysis beyond the basic 'bookends' of marriage and divorce to look more closely at how the issue of cohabitation impacts the life of a relationship," said Dr. Ed Sondik, Director of CDC's National Center for Health Statistics. "At the same time, we've also attempted to look beyond the influence of individual characteristics and are looking more at the characteristics of the community at large to get a comprehensive picture of what factors impact marriage and divorce rates in this country."

Among the findings in the report: unmarried cohabitations overall are less stable than marriages. The probability of a first marriage ending in separation or divorce within 5 years is 20 percent, but the probability of a premarital cohabitation breaking up within 5 years is 49 percent. After 10 years, the probability of a first marriage ending is 33 percent, compared with 62 percent for cohabitations.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And another:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Not surprisingly, young adults strongly favor cohabitation. But a careful review of the available social science evidence suggests that living together is not a good way to prepare for marriage or to avoid divorce. What's more, it shows that the rise in cohabitation is not a positive family trend. Cohabiting unions tend to weaken the institution of marriage and pose clear dangers for women and children.

Specifically, the research indicates that:

*Living together before marriage increases the risk of divorce. One study found an increased risk of 46%.
* Living together outside marriage increases the risk of domestic violence for women and the risk of physical and sexual abuse for children. One study found that the risk of domestic violence for women in cohabiting relationships was double that in married relationships; the risk is even greater for child abuse.
*Unmarried couples have lower levels of happiness and well-being than married couples.

We recognize the larger social and cultural trends that make cohabiting relationships attractive to many young adults today. Unmarried cohabitation is not likely to go away. Given this reality, we offer four principles consistent with the available evidence that may help guide the thinking of pre-marrieds on the question "Should we live together?"

1) Consider not living together at all before marriage. There is no evidence that if you decide to cohabit before marriage you will have a stronger marriage than those who don't live together, and there is some evidence to suggest that if you live together before marriage, you are more likely to divorce.

2) Don't make a habit of cohabiting. Multiple cohabiting is a strong predictor of the failure of future relationships.

3) Limit cohabitation to the shortest possible period of time. The longer you live together with a partner, the more likely it is that the low-commitment ethic of cohabitation will take hold, the opposite of what is required for a successful marriage.

4) Do not cohabit if children are involved. Children need and should have parents who are committed to staying together.


</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">baba...lots of things can and do contribute to divorce....but apparently when the partners in a marriage have NOT lived together FIRST they are statistically better at dealing with them. I think there are some good reasons why....and that you aren't addressing that. This isn't my opinion...it's a matter of research.

<small>[ January 06, 2004, 07:13 PM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

And this:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Another interesting study was conducted by Hall and Zhao (Cohabitation and Divorce in Canada, Journal of Marriage and the Family, May 1995: 421-427). They write,


The popular belief that cohabitation is an effective strategy in a high-divorce society rests on the common-sense notion that getting to know one another before marrying should improve the quality and stability of marriage. However, in this instance, it is looking more and more as if common sense is a poor guide.
Their study showed that cohabitation itself was shown to account for a higher divorce rate, rather than factors that might have led to cohabitation, such as parental divorce, age at marriage, stepchildren, religion, and other factors. In other words, other factors being equal, you are much more likely to divorce if you live together first.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">3) Limit cohabitation to the shortest possible period of time. The longer you live together with a partner, the more likely it is that the low-commitment ethic of cohabitation will take hold, the opposite of what is required for a successful marriage. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Star, this seemed to be the only part of your last two posts that really hit on the relationship between cohabitating before marriage as opposed to arguing the benefits of marriage vs. cohabitation. I found the following article helpful in diving a little deeper in to the reasoning behind the stats you are finding. It's a little more analytical...of course, I wasn't able to read the entire articles that you found.

http://www.rmfc.org/fs/fs0064.html
"In an article in Family Therapy, sociologists at Northern State University uncovered in their study of college students that cohabitation puts women in a perilous position, often at the mercy of men who regard rape with a disturbing indifference. The study also found that those who are most likely to cohabit indicate "Lower levels of religiosity, more liberal attitudes toward sexual behavior, less traditional views of marriage, and less traditional views of sex roles." All of these findings were expected and unsurprising. What the authors of the study did not expect to find, however, was that "those males who had cohabited displayed the most accepting views of rape." Previous studies have found that men typically cohabit because of the "convenience" of the relationship, whereas women cohabit with "the expectation that cohabitation will lead to marriage"-- thus creating a relationship in which men are likely to "hold a position of power" over women who expect much more from the relationship than they do. No wonder that "cohabiting couples report greater tension in the relationship" than do married couples. 4

In a recent study published in the Journal of Social and Personal Relationships, researchers found that only 30 percent of the sample cohabiting couples ultimately married, casting doubt on the value of so-called "trial marriages." The study also showed that those couples who had cohabited before marriage were more likely to have led lives marked by promiscuity than couples who had never cohabited. Cohabitors broke with tradition in other ways, too. Husbands who had cohabited before wedlock were less likely to be employed full time and more likely to have "lower occupational status" than their counterparts who had not cohabited before marriage. Also, wives who had cohabited were more likely to be employed full time than their counterparts who had not. This pattern of employment may explain why married couples who had first cohabited report "less traditional division of domestic labor," with husbands performing more "feminine chores" and wives performing more "masculine chores," than couples who had not cohabited. The Journal of Social and Personal Relationships article also agreed with earlier findings that couples who have cohabited are more likely to divorce than married couples who have never cohabited. 5 "

Something I noticed about this is that it really seems to focus a lot on the TYPE of person who would choose to cohabitate. I think that's important. None of the stats we have seen really get into any kind of detail with regard to the actual subjects. I think we'd need to know more about individual cases to notice trends in personalities...that's significant. For all we know, the same % of people who divorce after cohabitation are people who tend to have issues with committment. Just like many people have addictive personalities, a certain personality type could explain a lot about the failure rate of cohabitating couples. I'd be very interested to see a study which conducts the Myers-Briggs on couples who cohabitate, couples who marry without cohabitation, and couples who cohabitate and then marry. And then of course separate all of this into "failed" vs. "successful" marriages.

Smile

<small>[ January 06, 2004, 08:29 PM: Message edited by: SmileADay ]</small>

Hi. I just thought I would give you my two cents worth of experience. I moved in with a man when I was 20. He was a nice person, let me quit my fast food job so I could concentrate on my education, and he bought me all new clothes and even a car. This lasted about 3 months, and then he beat the heck out of me one day. I pressed charges, he spent time in jail and I was granted a 5 year restraining order against him.

I was left with 9 months left on our lease ($800 a month) with no way out. I had a $3000 credit card bill for furniture we had bought together under my name. I had no job. I had to drop out of college, get a full time job and find a car to drive, as he took the one he bought me.

The worst part for me was not being able to turn the heat on in the winter because I couldn't afford to pay it. I would take like 3 hour bathes at night just to stay warm, then wrap up in like 6 flannel blankets to sleep at night. I got a job as a manager at McDonalds which was my only way to eat. I bought a car too. College was out of the question. It still haunts me to this day, though I am back in school working on my degree part time.

My savior came about 4 months before my lease was up. The guy was 17, I was 20. I went on one date with him and knew we would get married. His mom helped me with my rent and let me move into her house when my lease was up. I was able to pay off all of my bills and this new man and I got an apartment when he turned 18.

He is now 22 and I am 25. We have been married for two years. Not everybody has bad luck with living with a man, but I did. It is really scary to have somebody that is nice turn on you. I had no clue that this man could be abusive. I was lucky to get out.

Two Years,

Thank you for sharing your story. You have shown incredible strength and resiliency, and I'm so glad that you've met someone who can treat you as you deserve to be. And I'm thrilled you're back in school! Baby starfish is my daughter. I own the very nice townhouse she (and her brother) live in. They are both enrolled in the same college and the place is pretty big. Her boyfriend has more or less moved in there. I adore him, and I think there is a good chance that somewhere down the road, they will marry.....but I want them to wait on living together until then, because that kind of "renters" mentality is not a good prerequisite for marriage. As the owner of the residence....I could just kick him out...but I think it's far more important that they make this decision on their own and feel good about it.

Sometimes we make mistakes, but some are certainly easier to recuperate from than others. What I wanted to say was simply this:

I am 34 and have made a lot of wrong turns. ALWAYS, in retrospect, I knew it when I was doing it. If it was a really little thing like should I order the $50.00 breast enhancement cream?- no harm done really (just out 50 bucks). The big decisions though really do affect you for a lifetime and many times you can hide under the umbrella of "it won't happen to me," but what if it does.

With the BIG decisions, I have finally learned to trust my intincts. If it nags me enough to ask to questions then maybe it's not the right choice for me- no matter what anyone says.

I did live with my husband before we were married (for the same reasons as you). I wish we hadn't. Honestly, I think it stunted our growth together as a married couple. We did really well living together and continued to "play house" after we were married. For us, I don't think when we actually married that our union was as profound. I mean in a way we were already doing all the marrried stuff living together, marriage just made it legal. And because we were already living together, there wasn't really a transition from singleness to married.

Now, 9 years, beautiful daughter, a few affairs, and a complete overhaul of our relationship (this past year and a half) I'd say that we are finally ready to be married.

Some of the most profound changes that I have made to get through our bad times is to conclude that I don't alwayss know what I'm doing and neither do a lot of other people in this world. When I have started to just trust that what the Bible says, I never go wrong, it's not always fun & I don't always understand it, but eventually it becomes worth it.

No matter what decision you make, I wish you all the best. You remind me a lot of me, very bright with a twist of stubborn <- I mean that in a nice way.

Here's reason why living together ( especially under the circumstances of which you are living) is not a trial of compatibility.

Your condo is "paid for" you say. Marriages rarely come with a "paid for" roof over your head. This is great for him, not only does he get you and the sex and other benefits that come with you Babyfish, he gets a "free" roof over his head. Boy, what a deal that is! Not having to pay for your own living space sure relieves a lot of stress and pressure. A couple could go quite a long time without much stress or pressure when ones parents are footing the bill for the largest expense of living. This arrangement is not real, it is "playing" house. It doesn't teach you much or require you to sacrifice much for the one you are living with.

If you are really interested in finding out about your compatibility you would be much better off paying your own way and he contibuting what is truly "half", not only what is "half" after the benefits that come along with living with a young woman who is self admittedly a "spoiled brat". Spoiled brats don't make good marriage material as marriage is a continual stream of sacrifice and dying to one another. This arrangement you have affords you no opportunity to experience what a marriage would be like. Living together like this is simply "playing", allows for easily satisfying physical needs, and reduces your opportunities for building strong character. Simply it's easy and it's not the easy things that test who we really are, it is the hard things. Marriage, under the BEST of circumstances is hard.

It's harder to live seperate but it teaches you much and builds much, because it takes more effort and work. We usually value most the things we had to work real hard to get. Don't be easy for him, let him work for you dear. He will value you and treasure you much more and if he doesn't, he's not worth keeping.

A little something about God now. Babyfish, you know how much your mom and dad love you and want good things for you? Well God, as your loving heavenly Father wants all that magnified a thousand fold for your life. He's got a plan for your life grander than anything you or I could imagine. How do we "get" that life that's better than any plan we can dream up ourselves? It's by been obedient and faithful to His Word and guidelines for our life. It's a simple for us as it was for Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden. Simple but not easy, for their is a grand liar that tries continually to slip us up by believing his lies. He lied to Eve. The first ? in the bible is the serpent asking Eve, "Hath not God said?" His lying slimy self got her to question God's instruction to her regarding how she could live forever in that wonderful garden..."Don't eat from this one tree". The devil got her to question God and his instruction and enticed her to think that she, in her will and plan, could have something just as great as what God had given and planned for her. Like most of us humans she believed his lie and indulged her own will and plan. Not too pretty what happened after that.

First and foremost the devil is a liar. To be the recipient of the incredible life, full of joy, that your Father has planned for you ,you first must be obedient. It seems when we're young that that means giving up so much. It's often not until we are older and have indulged ourselves in our own "plans" that we discover that our own way hasn't served us well or brought us the joy we had hoped for. That living together is a good, practical thing to do and gives us a chance to get to know a partner without all the entaglements of marriage, is just another "lie" the enemy tells us. If it wasn't, the statistics on successful marriage after living together would show us just what we, in our own understanding, would expect, that living togehter increases your chances for a long, happy marital union. Unfortunately, that is not the case. Most certainly we can chose to believe that "our" way is best for "us", again unfortunately that is most certainly not the case, for our Father in heaven knows us and our needs even better than we do. We simply must learn to trust in Him and His ways. I'd encourage you to reflect on that and consider how much better His way just might be in the long run.All the best to you!

<small>[ January 16, 2004, 02:22 PM: Message edited by: mthrrhbard ]</small>

There is also a notable statistical increase in domestic violence in marriages where the couple lived together prior to marriage as compared to those who have not.

My marriage had this problem, although it is thankfully now solved.

Other issues are that you develop habits living together, and many of these habits (as you are technically single) are independent behaviors and of not having too many expectations from your partner. These habits serve you very poorly after marriage.

There is a big difference between living together, even in a very committed relationship, and in being married. My H and I lived together for almost 2 years before we married. None of it prepared me for marriage, and we actually developed habits that set us up for marital difficulties.

Just my experiences.

Just wanted to share my .02 cents.


My husband and I have been married for 7 months. We dated for approximately one and a half years before we decided to move in together. Shortly after we started dating, we knew we would marry...eventually. Although the logical finanacial considerations contributed to the decision to move in together, I can't really say it was the driving force behind the decision. We wanted to be together...all the time. We enjoyed spending time together, enjoyed cooking meals together, cleaning up together, falling asleep with each other and waking up together. Some might call it playing house, but we both knew we would eventually marry...when we were ready. And five years later...we were ready. I can't say that my expectations towards the level of committment are any different than they were before the marriage....they were always high, for both of us. We faced many challenges together in the 6.5 years before marriage. Marriage does feel different than living together. For me, there's a heightened sense of safety, security and peace. And I can't imagine making such a huge decison (decision to marry) without being well informed in all aspects about the person I chose for a life-long partner. To date, I don't have any regrets that living together before marriage was the right decision. In fact, I believe our 5 years of "living in sin" was an essential element in learning about each other and helping us both to make an informed decision.

According to the statistics...perhaps we are doomed, but, I think not. I'm hopeful and taking measures to ensure we don't become a statistic.

Jill, my experiance of living together was the same as yours. Except we only lived together about 1.5 years. But it was so good.

I asked him last night if he was glad we lived together and he said he was. In fact we both agree that we HAD to take that interim step before marriage.

Marriage just made me feel prouder and more secure feeling. Because we made our love "legal". Because it was so strong and real and we were so compatable.

hi baby star
im 20 too, and live with my fiance, to whom i am getting married in july.

interestingly, here on MB, i have found many ppl who strongly object to being engaged at my age. i dont know why this is, as everyone in my circle of family and friends are ecstatic about our marriage, and noone has told us we are too young. This may be because they know us individually and as a couple, and know we are both intelligent people who are very much in love and have thought very hard about the decisions we have made.

In my opinion, living together before marriage, (despite the scary statistics, which could be down to another factor which has been overlooked) is a very wise decision. Because surely, you cant truly know someone until you have lived together and spent that amount of time together? Why would you marry someone without having found out whether the emotional and sexual spark vanishes at the mere mention of utility bills and rubber gloves?

Do what feels right for you, babystar. I know for a fact that my fiance is a wonderful, caring, attractive man who i have a lot of fun with, and i wont be throwing that away for a string of no-hopers.

Good luck xxx

<small>[ January 31, 2004, 07:46 PM: Message edited by: ks2001 ]</small>

Well, I'm coming at this frm the perspective of one of those who is victim to the statistics.

In other words, my STBX and I did live together for almost a year before we got married. He said we would never have gotten married if we hadn't lived together first, because he's always felt that way - that you have to live with someone to know them well enough to marry them.

Me - no excuses, I did it, but I was uncomfortable with it the whole time. It went against what I believed. But I consoled myself with the "well, we plan to be married anyway, so God will understand."

And I'm not even taking the tack here of claiming that God caused our marriage to fail because we lived together - on the contrary, I do believe that no matter how the relationship starts out, once you are married, God wants that marriage to succeed, and will bless it if the two people in it are really trying.

But.... (and you knew that one had to be coming, didn't you? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) One of the things that I now see was a problem was my STBX's view of marriage and relationships in general. He did personals without my knowledge for years. He had, I believe, at least two affairs, and possibly more. And ultimately, he walked out on me and went to live with his mistress. He claimed he wanted to come home, and I said ok, but not immediately - that we had to work on things, and he could come home when I felt it was "safe," that I wouldn't be living through this all over again, and that it would probably take a year. He agreed, and then proceeded to go to counseling with me for almost 3 months, until I discovered he had never really quit living with her. He never did admit to me that he was living with her, but I had it from enough other sources, including his mother, that I knew it was true. And he didn't admit it, he just quit denying it.

Anyway, why do I think all this was affected or influenced by living together first, instead of it just being another case of a man cheating on his wife? Well, I don't know that I would say that living together affected our marriage, but I do think that living together reflected values (at least for him) that should have been a warning sign of things to come. I don't completely excuse myself here either, believe me, but I can at least say that I was uncomfortable with it, and had it been up to me, we would have been married before we lived together. But I still needed some adjustments on my views of s*x before marriage too.

But for him... well, not too long ago, I told him I didn't understand how he could do this to me, and how he could consider it all right, and himself to still be a Christian, when he is living and sleeping with someone other than his wife. His answer? "Well, we lived and slept together when we weren't married." He really sees no difference between two unmarried people choosing to live together before they get married, and abandoning your wife to live with another woman.

And in all fairness to him, doesn't it start getting to a point where you are just talking small degrees of difference? It's a small step from living together before marriage to living with someone other than your wife (or husband.) And it was a small step from sleeping together before we were married to living together before we were married.

I have just recently begun to realize how very much s*x changes the relationship, and how, without that bond of marriage being there first, it can cause a gulf between the two people that may never again be spanned.

Which is something God has tried to tell us all along in the bible. If we just listened, you know?

And I know - there are going to be a lot of people out there that disagree with me - or that, even if they agree with me about not living together, are going to disagree about pre-marital s*x. And I'm not saying it's easy. It's been a long time for me now, and I know I'm feeling it. I miss it a lot.

But I think I have begun to see that if I don't want to make the same mistakes that ultimately led to my divorce, if I want to find someone who values marriage as much as I do, I'm going to have to act like I value marriage that much.

Here is my take on the whole living together before marriage thing...

My first marriage, I was 20. I kinda lived with my ex. He stayed at my parents' home (we didn't sleep in the same room). We got married, had 3 kids, he was extremely abusive and now we've been divorced for 3 yrs.

My new husband and I lived together for 3 months and then got married. We've now been married for almost 2 years. Things are so much better than in my first marriage.

For us, living together was right. We knew that we were getting married soon and it seemed senseless for him to pay rent when he never stayed at his apartment anyway. And, yes, he definately paid his way here. We split on groceries and all the other bills. The money became ours. We've become a happily blended family with 5 sons (my 3 and his 2). And we are very determined not to become statistics.

Mitzi <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />