Yesterday my H and I had to get together to talk about some financial stuff. It went pretty well....actually better then it has for a long time.<P>So in the middle of the conversation, he was carrying on about his "mid-life" crisis, and I said "well, have you learned anything about yourself or life thru all this?" And he says "yeah....I learned that if I hadn't started drinking again, I wouldn't have left you or had an affiar." (He is recovering alcoholic, who was dry for 14 years and just began drinking a few months before the affair.)<P>I didn't really know what to say to that. Part of me just wants to leave it alone and let the separation/divorce take it's course.....so much water under the bridge now.<P>The other part of me wants to ask him "so since you aren't drinking now, why haven't you made any attempts at reconciliation?"<P>What do ya think? Should I just let it be? Do I really want to know the answer? (Like "well, I guess you/our marriage wasn't worth fighting for?")<P>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<BR>

Mrs. O<P>I'm not in any position to answer that question for you. I will keep you in my thoughts and prayers.<P>------------------<BR>Love, Bill<P>-There are none so blind as those who refuse to see!-<BR>-Stand up and do the right thing, even if your standing alone.-

Well, I'm in a somewhat similar boat. My W (who has moved out about 3 months ago) is now making more and more comments about how she sees how stupid she was, how awful her behavior was, how difficult life is, blah blah blah.<P>I catch myself being very close to saying "so, does that mean you are thinking of possibly coming back?". Yet I decided to not say that, because, just like you said, I know I'm going to get some moronic answer like "I'm afraid it's too late", or "I'm still not in-love with you".<P>I heard enough of this nonsense over the last year (my Plan A), and I am so relieved that now that I'm in Plan B I don't have to hear it anymore.<P>I dunno, I'd say let him make the first move. Otherwise, you are once again trying to rescue him from himself. As someone here said, the most loving thing you can do for a person is to let them do their stuff and learn for themselves, rather than trying to "help" them.<P>Hope this helps,<P>AGG

Oh...another thing he crept into the conversation, although I didn't respond to it either, was "Well, you don't want me back anyway...." <P>This was after he asked me (again!) "Do you want to do anything about the divorce?" I had answered "Well, I'm not the one who wanted the divorce to start with, so....." <P>He throws stuff like that in the conversations all the time....I think just to see how I'll react. For a long time (a looooooong time...over a year), I would answer "Yes, I do" And he still didn't make a move....<P>So I think you're right.....just don't react to it and see what (if anything) else he does. BTW, I'm in Plan B too, but have to occassionally see him for financial stuff, which I try to do via e-mail if at all possible.<P>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O

Mrs. O,<P>If you're not clear on a message he gave you, by all means ask, "I just want to check something out. Now that you're sober, is there something you wanted to discuss about our relationship, like getting back together? I had the feeling you did the other day, and I'm just checking it out." It's honest, up front, and you'll KNOW what he wants (hopefully) so you two can discuss matters realistically. No guarantees, and nothing written in granite. You know alcoholics have a VERY difficult time being direct, and he may appreciate your candor. What do you have to lose?<P>Aloha y'self,<BR>Nell

I guess I really don't have anything to loose, but I just don't want to hear "because I don't love you anymore," or "because I don't want to go back," or "because I don't want to work that hard on a relationship to reconcile."<P>Stuff like that.<BR>

Hey, one quick thought... somebody told me once to close the past and say, "Oh, I'm so glad that part of my life is over." It really has taken a lot to get you where you are now but if you're going to look forward and not go back, you've got to give a vision for the future... like maybe not with words but with actions. Try to demonstrate what you're feeling through doing something. Ask him to dinner or to a movie or for a walk or something. <P>You don't want the OLD relationship... you want a NEW and TRANSFORMED relationship... and if that's with your H, GREAT! But it must be that... healed and transformed. Keep working on yourself so that if it does happen you truly will NOT be the same person you were before but will have grown! <P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once

OvrC! Very insightful!<P>Hi Mrs. O.... <P>My husband, from whom I am now officially separated, said tonight when he picked up the kids, do I want to get back together? But he always says stuff like that. Over and over, he asks for a kiss or a hug or something along those lines. He has an addictive personality, and he is addicted to our old sick relationship. I am out of that relationship now and if he wants a new one I am more than willing..... who would be best to help me bring up my children than their father? But he is still wanting the old relationship back --- yelling at me, degrading me, calling me names --- and I am not going back to that. <P>I am very poor at plan B, but I am doing my best to stay away, unless he is ready to dispose of every 'friend' in his life who stands between us. And I have my dad to help me too. I told my STBX to call my dad when he is really ready to reconcile. Dad and I have talked it over, what I am looking for in a mate now -- whether that is my STBX or someone else, I will never settle for less.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NoraP:<BR><B>...what I am looking for in a mate now -- whether that is my STBX or someone else, I will never settle for less.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You know what? That's how I feel too. <P>I don't want my old marriage either. And if my H did want to return, there are certain criteria that would have to be met, just as I'm sure he'd have for me.<P>Maybe that's another reason I don't want to ask him...what if he say "yes, I am open to reconcilation...." I'M the one who's not really sure!<P>However, it always throws me for a loop when he says stuff like that. I'm still married to him and I wanted our marriage to work....so it's hard for me to figure out....where am I? I waited so long for a chance....maybe I'm just not realizing that I'm PAST the point where a chance would be welcome.<P>Hmmmm......<P><BR>

Hi Mrs. O:<P>Perhaps the reason you feel so ambivalant about the whole question right now is that nothing really has changed.<P>He's making some interesting comments...but what is he doing?<P>You and I both know that alcoholics are very good at making all the right noises, and even being very sincere while saying it. <P>IMHO, it's too soon to make any kind of decision. Maybe he's coming out of the fog...maybe not. Is he in AA? Does he have a sponsor? Is he going to meetings? These are all things that would indicate that he is intent on bettering himself. <P>If not, then it is all just simply words. <P>But you already know this, I don't have to tell you.<P>((((hugs)))) BR<P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

Mrs.O,<P>I'm a recovered alcoholic, twenty two years of continuous sobriety. After reading this thread, my sense is that your gut feeling is right on target.<P>Please understand that all addictive - obsessive behavior involves a tremendous amount of deception and self deception. It is part of the constant manipulation or con game we play to facilitate our alcoholic-addictive behavior. AA is a program that demands, not perfect honesty, but rigerous honesty, above all, with ourselves. From your posts, it sounds like your STBX isn't quite there yet.<P>In order to get enough information to "get over", we play on the doubts and feelings of others. I'm really guessing, but this is the second time this week someone has posted along these lines. What this sounds like is probing for your doubt, maybe a trial balloon, looking for the possibility of reconcillation, but not yet willing to accept either the risk or the responsibility that goes along with it. He seems to be following the pattern of testing for any possible escape from the normal natural consequences of his actions. That is typical of alcoholic behavior and it bleeds over into many other parts of our lives.<P>Now here is a very important point. STBX may have stopped consuming alcohol for fourteen years, but the progression of the disease continued right on schedule, even during the abstinance. A slip after fourteen years of sobriety isn't unheard of, but it is extremely rare, less than one tenth of one percent of alcoholics with that length of abstinance relapse. When they speak of the slip, invariably, they will tell you they got away from meeetings. And recovery from a slip like that is going to be a lot more difficult for him than it was fourteen years ago. I've seen it happen, and they have a heck of a time getting back to the program again. So, your doubts are well founded, and you are smart to hold yourself at arms length, at least until he has had a chance to establish a significant period of recovery, probably two or more years.<P>The last point I want to make, and I think you already picked up on it, is that alcohol got blamed for an awful lot of things alcohol didn't do. Compulsive injestion of alcohol and craving of alcohol are consistant with alcoholism. Infidelity in alcoholic marriages is fairly common, both by the drunk and the spouse, but it is a concurrant problem rather than an innate part of the disease. (In my case, given a choice between booze and broads, booze always won.) It is a problem that is almost impossible to deal with when the drinking continues, the first step is to sober up and make a substantial recovery.<P>Mrs.O, you have very good instincts. I pray you will trust them. For your sake, as well as his, you also have a moral obligation to resolve all doubt in favor of your own best judgement.<P>Prayers and stuff,<P>Bumper

Yes, yes, yes....I know. <P>No, he isn't in AA. No he doesn't have a sponsor. In fact, I think (but I don't know for a fact) that he still occassionally drinks a little, but nothing like those months immediately before and immediately after D-day. That was baaaaad!<P>Since I was never around him when he drank (it was before I knew him), I'm not really sure of all of his behaviours, esp. as they relate to drinking. <P>But all in all, he is a BIG talker, with sometimes little or no action....<P><B>Oh...Oh...Oh.....</B> he just called me for something totally different and so off the cuff, I just asked him about what he said. He said, "well, once I stopped drinking, I found myself in a whole nuther place (living with OW) and it didn't seem like something I could do (reconciliation). My whole mindset was so totally different then because the drinking just screwed me up for so long."<P>So I guess that's that. <P>Anyway, I AM moving on and I WILL have a great life. Maybe I'll look into those divorce papers this weekend.....hmmm...<P>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<P><BR>

Thanks Bumper,<P>I guess we posted at the same time....<P>Thanks for the insight. I think too that he's gonna have a heck of a time getting over what he's done to his life, let alone the drinking. Like I said, I'm not sure he's totally stopped (because I sometimes smell cigarette smoke on him and he only smokes when he drinks).<P>Anyway, I do feel that I've given him a pretty long time to at least make an attempt at reconciliation, and he hasn't done it. Just played on my doubts, etc. as you said. I think he pretty much does what he wants and if he had wanted to reconcile, I think he would have done it.<P>Thanks again for your insight. <P>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<BR>

Mrs.O,<P>I guess we were posting about the same time. That line just hit me, "Well, you don't want me back anyway...." Vintage alcoholic Bull****, and not very good quality Bull**** at that. That is the text book example of alcoholic rationalization, diverting focus to escape facing responsibility. Sounds like he is trying to convince himself (and you too) that the marriage is ending because you don't want him back. ie. His minor, insignificant little mistakes like drunken behavior and infidelity really didn't have that much to do with it anyway. He will try to put the blame and responsibility anywhere, but on his own behavior.<P>OK, just had to throw that in.<P>Prayers and stuff,<P>Bumper

Woah....reading your posts sounds like listening to my stbx... his addiction hasn't been just alcohol..but also work..<P>he makes comments about "me needing to change" I tell him I have changed..but he doesn't like the changes..while he'd<BR>work out of town he'd spend all his money within two weeks of getting paid..(the company gives him a subsistance for working out of town) and then he'd call me asking for more money...and I always gave it..until this past year..I finally started saying NO..and then all I got was YOU HATE ME!! I'll be sleeping in my truck and YOU don't care!!! <BR>But, I can look back and see how I was enabling him to drink..and waste his money..by always being there to give him more..whenever he asked..so if he spent $1600.00 in two weeks he could always get more..he'd even take out advances from work...and then they'd take it out of the weekly checks that came home to support the household..it didn't come out of the money he would get every month..so he never missed it..it never effected HIM...but it did effect the rest of us..and I just got to the point I wasn't going to do it anymore..just like..when I gave him the option to find another job and be here...or to move out...he chose to move out..and says that I didn't give him a choice..I kicked him out...and thats what he tells the kids...I'd be there but your mom doesn't want me there...she kicked me out...and I want the kids to understand..I didn't kick him out...he made that choice on his own..and I think the two older ones do understand...but my son doesn't...<P>My nine year old heard a Song by Conway Twitty...and one line says...<P>"I've been to busy drinking, she's been to busy thinking..<BR>about the kind of love she needs and the man she never see's.." <P>And said..thats you mom..your thinking..and dad's drinking..and he's never here..and when he is he's always drinking..I wanted to cry..because she was so right...<P>And my twelve year old..makes comments about how she doesn't like him..and how he lies to them..and questions them about what I am doing all the time..and they really hate it when he tells them he'll come get them one night and then when they call him he tells them he can't come get them because he has other plans....<P>I overheard the kids talking earlier tonite...and I just hurt..my 6 yr old said to the nine yr old..."You know..dad always says how much he misses us when he doesn't see us...yet, when we want to go see him..he tells us No, because he is too tired or that he has other plans to go out with his friends..I just think he's a liar..and I hate him for that..and she responded with...I know..I don't like it either..he told me I could come over tonite..then when I called him..he said..NO..I'll get you tomorrow night..and thats what he said the other night too..and he never came to get me.. <P>I just hurt that they feel this way..and when I've made comments in the past about him doing that..he always says something about how he hates how I yell at the kids...or WELL they told ME they don't like when YOU do this or that...so I just don't say anything anymore..and I hear the song Cats in The Cradle running through the back of my head...<P>

Wow!! My husband says those same things ... after we went to counseling in January he called and said he did not want to work on it because "You are not enthusiastic enough about reconciliation." !!!!!!!!!!!!<P>But my husband has NEVER been addicted to alcohol. The only addiction I can see in his life is the internet. I used to think our marriage would have fallen apart eventually anyway, but maybe that addiction is stronger than I thought! I was not so sure (until now and hearing all of these words and ways of talking around the truth) that it was a true addiction, but just something some people say........ Like being a chocoholic or something.<P>Wow! My eyes are so much more open. I am thankful to have found you Mrs. O, because many of our experiences are parallel...... and it has helped me through some troubled times.<P>I love what BrambleRose said, too..... " [Addicts] are good at making all the right noises." That REALLY hit home with what I have been going through with STBX.