How do we recover our once broken marriage vows?
How do we renew our love for our spouse?
How do we survive the agony of being a betrayer or being betrayed?
How do we forgive ourselves?
How do we forgive the other persons?
How do we build our self-respect anew?

Where to begin?

First, by "seeing". Most of us (WS and BS) have experience in our lives as "conflict avoiders". If we ignore and avoid a problem ... it does not exist. We refuse to see something that is uncomfortable. We pretend something is not there. We look away.

These are true words:

"If anything, it would be like signing up to ruin your very own life."

But, how? How is one's very own life ruined?

I have been thinking about this .... and this is my theory.

I think, the secret ingredient for recovery may very well be *empathy*.

Compassion and appreciation for all others who are hurt. "Seeing" with our hearts and with our minds. The ability to experience the other person we are in conflict with as human.

Our souls cannot recover when filled with hatred ..... and even more importantly .... and perhaps more sinister is *apathy*. If we lack feelings for the others damaged by this tragic downfall of love ... we may never fully recover.

We are meant to love one another. And, when we forget that, we "sign up to ruin our very own life".

Healing without empathy? ... What a hollow lifeless loveless thought.

What does empathy cost?

It costs us our pridefullness. It costs us our vanity. It hushes our "taker". We surrender our contempt. Our apathy melts into painful reality.

What does empathy give us?

We experience God's grace.

Just some thoughts I had today.

Please share yours ..... what do YOU think is a secret ingredient for FULL recovery?

Pepper

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ August 22, 2002, 09:01 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>Our souls cannot recover when filled with hatred ..... and even more importantly .... and perhaps more sinister is *apathy*. If we lack feelings for the others damaged by this tragic downfall of love ... we may never fully recover.

What does empathy cost?

It costs us our pridefullness.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WOW!!
Now that's some food for thought...
I know the biggest hinderence in my recovery is my wounded pride.
Later this afternoon I plan on seeing the source of my hatred...perhaps after thinking on this for a bit I can see her for what she really is instead of the enemy I have made her out to be.

One thing that helped me in recovery is knowing that forgiving doesn't mean forgetting...it just means that I forfeited my right to hold it against Mr."T" for the duration of his life...an excellent book helped me see that, called, "forgiving the unforgiveable" by David Stoop...

He explains that some things shouldn't be forgotten, especially since it is a safeguard against future pain of that kind...but to forgive something like an infidelity, it just means you chose to forfeit your right to hold it against them and keep slinging it in their face...

It's one of my secret ingrediants for recovery...
works for me.....

Hugs, and I will be interested in reading what the others have to share also...

Twiisty

Wow. I LOVED your post, PB.

I have always felt empathetic towards my husband because he suffered too. Probably more than I did in some ways. Your theory is right on in my book because I have seen the results firsthand. For some reason, God gave me strength to put away false pride and look at my husband as a fallible human being and see not only his flaws, but mine as well.

Over the past four years I have made an assessment of my flaws, which are so many and so glaring it almost takes my breath away. But, for some reason, it hasn't diminished my esteem, but enhanced it in a weird way. Kind of an acceptance of my human self.

It has become easy for both of us to admit when we are wrong and neither of us are defensive hardly at all unless he badgers me about the bills and acts incredulous when we are out of money like I've been on some huge merry shopping spree...hahaha

Our recovery has been one long hard road and we have past the demarcation between eggshells and true recovery from...empathy, I am convinced.

Thanks for this post and the other wonderful post on Sisterhood that was so unceremoniously dismissed in exchange for a hamster hash. I absolutely loved it...rings so true.

Catnip =^^=

"Hamster hash" was OK by me. I am all for silliness to break the tension now and then ... However, there are serious wounds full of hurt amongst us ... and although I am not officially a part of this board ...( there is no OC) ... I feel the bonds of sisterhood ... and brotherhood too (JustLearning ... this MEANS YOU ... and all the other guys too!)

It just hurts me to see people flailing about .... it hurts to "see" others. And apathy is protective of that hurt ... but, the cost is too much.

Our empathy keeps us from committing crimes against each other.

Best regards.

Pepper

<small>[ August 21, 2002, 10:51 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Dr. Pepper,

I have preached my sermon <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> , but you post I think is really on target. I am always reminded of the saying someone here used to have at the end of their posts. It goes along with your call for empathy. "Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die."

I sense a bit of that on this particular portion of MB. It really bothers me as well.

I don't have an OC issue in my life, but it was a lady that did many years ago that brought me out of lurkdom (6 months or more) and simply "forced" me to register to post, over 3 years ago. Somehow this particular issue gets to me more than many others and yet may be one of the purest tests of the human spirit, because of its fundamental nature. I think because it is so fundamental it also brings out some of the most noble aspects of people.

As K said, an OC can be an OPPORTUNITY. As long as I live, I will never forget that statement for such a devastating piece of news.

Dr.P, I like your thinking.

God Bless,

JL

For me, as the OW, one of my biggest hurdles was putting the blinders down. I covered my eyes to the pain of the BS. I did not wish to see the reason behind her angry words. I defended myself with &#8220;I didn&#8217;t know&#8221; and &#8220;He lied to me&#8221;. I was so caught up in me that I had not vision for her. Yet, I was not alone in this equation. There were other factors (players) that HAD to be considered. I didn&#8217;t get to where I&#8217;m at all by myself. It was an evolution of sorts. In order for me to figure out how I got to where I&#8217;m at, I had to look at EVERYTHING. I&#8217;m not a victim. I made choices, some good, some bad, but they were MY choices. I cannot blame anyone else&#8230;least of all the BS. Just like I felt justified in my anger and feelings of betrayal, I had to recognize that she was entitled to feel those same emotions. How could I fault her for feeling what I felt? I was not better than her and therefore more entitled. How arrogant and short-sighted of me to behave as if only my pain mattered. Typically, I&#8217;m not a selfish person, but I had strayed from who I really was. I had to go back and re-read some of my first posts here. When I did, I didn&#8217;t like what I saw. No one did anything to me that I did not permit. It was not the BS&#8217;s fault, by any means, so I needed to quit acting like it was. I have accountability and ownership for what happened to me and how my actions affected her. Whether it was intentional or not, is completely irrelevant. I had to re-learn empathy. At first I did it grudgingly, through the BS&#8217;s here, but soon it became a normal course for me. Isn&#8217;t it funny how, by giving a little bit, you gain SOOOO much?

CMiranda ... I asked 6 questions at the beginning of this thread:
"How do we ___recover, renew, survive, forgive, forgive and build."

Wouldn't you like to participate in a positive thread .... about healing our marriages?

Please weigh in with your contributions for rebuilding ... with either your theories or you practical personal experience.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Well of course there are no pat answers to any of these questions. Some of the answers don't come in clearly for YEARS, but I believe the start in recovering from any side of infidelity is definitely opening our eyes. Infidelity has a way of causing us to see only what we want to see--which is usually our own side. It's about changing our attitudes. Attitudes are formed by our thoughts and our thoughts--how we see life could have come from years of value programming--or lack thereof!!! So, we have to reprogram our thinking--how we see ourselves, how we see the world, how we view marriage, our expectations...

<strong>How do we recover our once broken marriage vows?</strong>

Remember what was said. Get back to what was promised. Know that our word is our character. Our word is all we have.

<strong>How do we ever renew our love for our spouse?</strong>

Start fresh every day. Wipe the slate clean. Don't collect stamps. Don't nurse and rehearse the pain. Disburse it and let God reverse it. At least that is what I tell myself when I feel hurt by someone who I believe has wronged me. I know... I'm not a BS and I can never (NEVER) know the hurt of a BS unless it happens to me, but I strongly believe that resentment is resentment, and we have to rid ourselves of it daily.

<strong>How do we survive the agony of being a betrayer or being betrayed?</strong>

Probably a moment by moment walk of faith. Living in the now. Find ways to strengthen relationships and make decisions that move us toward our purpose and destiny rather than running away from something (OR someone)... Forgiveness of self & others--moment by moment, thought by thought. Maybe accepting that there might not be answers to all the why's and what if's...

<strong>How do we forgive ourselves?</strong>

Say to yourself in the mirror that "I forgive you and I love you." and don't beat up yourself with negative thoughts... Don't have our peace inside someone else's head. Understand our own motives and admit them--right or wrong. God knows our truths anyways. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<strong>How do we forgive the other persons?</strong>

Say out loud that "I forgive so and so." Ask God to fill me up. Like turning on the light, you don't have to get rid of all the darkness first, you just turn on the light. If I choose to remain full of God's goodness, ugly stuff gets exposed and disspelled instantly--by His Spirit.

<strong>How do we build our self-respect anew?</strong>

Seeing ourselves and others as valuable and precious to God. Realizing that we are loved and we can love. Find someone to give to and give--of ourselves, our resources. Helping others sort of takes our minds off of ourselves and is a good overall feeling. Exercise helps--taking care of ourselves physically. Taking a day off work occasionally for "mental health," taking care of ourselves emotionally.

<small>[ August 22, 2002, 11:31 PM: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</small>

((( BTDT )))

I LOVED what you wrote !

And, I agree with you that it DOES take years ... therefore, we add a pinch of patience to the recipe ... patience of ourselves, and for others.

Beautifully done BTDT ... a real keeper.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Another thing that ran across my mind is that our attitude is our choice and it determines our approach to our entire life!

God chooses what we go through, WE choose HOW. The outlook and frame of mind we embrace today is our choice. We can control what goes on inside of us to influence what goes on around us. We choose what seeds we will sow today. We choose or we lose.

Thank you Pepper--always inspiring me to THINK, THINK, THINK!!! Hmmmmm....

ohbratti1:
"Isn't it funny how, by giving a little bit, you gain SOOOO much?"

Truely true.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ August 23, 2002, 12:07 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

BTDT~

Your comment about "frame of mind" being our choice is sooo true. Mr. Pepper and I did a "Parenting teens with ADHD" class ... One of the things we learned to do as parents was called ...

"re-framing" ..... !!!

We made a list of the annoying behaviors our teens with ADHD usually did that were driving us nutz ... and we re-framed the behaviors into positive attributes ..... and it was HARD at first , cuz these kids are very challenging to parent. But, it was a key eye-opener .... a way to make our own attitude adjustment that would open doors to healing and growth.

Sure beats the hell outta banging my head over and over against the same unyielding problem.

Life's problems have a way of educating us against our will! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ August 23, 2002, 12:36 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Yeah, I hear you on dealing with difficult teens. For some reason the age of 14 is when it starts getting "interesting!"

But you know? What we DO is not WHO we ARE. If we can separate our DO from our WHO, it is easy to love ourselves, regardless. I think that is key.

<small>[ August 23, 2002, 03:57 AM: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
[QB]BTDT~

One of the things we learned to do as parents was called ...

"re-framing" ..... !!!

We made a list of the annoying behaviors our teens with ADHD usually did that were driving us nutz ... and we re-framed the behaviors into positive attributes QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">For an example, I had a very difficult step-son who resented me for years. He would antagonize me on a daily basis to intentionally upset me and was very methodical in his 'torture'. Today, he is a methodical computer geek with tenacity in all he does and I have become adept at debate because of our endless debates at home. Twenty three years later, we are very close. He is so sorry he behaved the way he did and I am so sorry he was unappraochable because I could heve been so good for him if he would have let me get close back then. He would have been a much happier child if only he would have let me love him.

I wish I would have known about 're-framing' back then. I might have been able to reach him or look at the situation differently and put into practive a more effective way to do so.

Interesting thread, Dr. Pepper. It's funny that I can do and be most of the things that you and BTDT suggest with my spouse, but find I have a tough time here with CM. I guess I need something to work with to get some results and something is wrong. Either my delivery or her defensivenss or both.

Catnip =^^=

Hi Pepper,

Are you a counselor/psychologist/shrink/pastor? Do people call you "Dr" just cause it goes with the soda or because you are one?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How do we recover our once broken marriage vows?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I figured that D-day was the beginning of a new marriage. There was nothhing he could do that could fix what he had done during 7 years of our marriage. To expect him to fix it was going to be pointless and and endless source of frustation for me. I expected him to get with the program (any program, not specifically MBers) and make a better future for us.

What I had always like about Mr. J was his integrity. Well, he had plenty of it when we began our marriage but he handed a piece of it away every time he slept with her, or pursued his career to the detriment of our personal life, or had a road rage incident. Rather than labeling him as a "liar and a cheat" I tried to see integrity as a continium. At one point he had been at the top of the scale and he had slid down--he had never had 100% integrity and he didn't now have 0% integrity. Now it was up to him see how much of it he could build back into our lives. AFter the first week or two of extreme rage, I refused to let myself label him as all bad, or call names. (I have to admit I did enjoy those two weeks where I allowed myself the liberty and I don't feel too guilty about it either. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How do we renew our love for our spouse?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know because I am not having a lot of "in-love" feelings for him. He has been very slow in his recovery due to his guilt, low self-esteem.

He willingly went to marriage counseling, but really didn't do much of what the counselor asked of him. He took many months to extricate himself from the emotional part of his affair and laid around the house, refused to work or even participate in daily life for over a year. In short, he nearly destroyed himself over his affair and was slow to pick himself back up.

He currently is not meeting my needs for financial support, SF, or domestic support. Asking for these things seems to provoke a guilt/shame reaction in him but does nothing to change his behavior. He is working very hard at his new business but it is going to take a year to get it off the ground and meanwhile we can't meet our basic expenses. (He used to earn 3x what I did. I am now earing 8X what he is making. It is just we built an expensive life and made financial committments that cannot be supported on just my salary.)

However, I [BOLD]am[/BOLD] beginning to admire him again. He is a good father to our newly adopted children. He is trying to build a business. He [BOLD]did[/BOLD] disentangle himself from his lover and recommit himself to our marriage. He is living with more integrity than he employed before.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How do we survive the agony of being a betrayer or being betrayed?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In the beginning I wasn't sure I was going to survive. I even had to go to the hospital and check in when my suicide thoughts got too far out of control.

I gave this over to God. I prayed for healing. I asked my friends to pray for me. I posted here. I went to counseling.

I talked to my close friends and family--all the time. I didn't isolate myself from those who loved me.

(I have seen others here who have felt that telling family and friends what had happened was a mistake--others couldn't forgive when the xBS chooses to or your ruin your spouses reputation in the community/family/church be telling his or her secret. I felt like it wasn't my responsibility to protect him from the justifiable anger/chastisement of the important people in our lives. I didn't tell to be vindictive but because the love and support I got was vital to my survival and eventual healing.)

I used the skills in cognitive therapy that I had learned during previous counseling for depression.
I talked back to the self-defeating negative thoughts. For example, I would think "This is horrible. My husband had an affair and a child. I can't stand this. I want to die, I will always feel this way." I would write down these negative thoughts and counter them with more realistic (not necessarily positive) thoughts. For example: "Yes this is horrible. It is one of the hardest things that a person can go through, but I can stand this. I am strong and have good coping skills. I will not always feel this way. This is a crisis and I will feel bad for probably quite a while, but eventually this will start to get better--in or out of this marriage."

How do we forgive ourselves?

For me, this wasn't too big a problem. For the first few weeks I felt like I bore some of the responsiblity for his affair. We had, up until D-day what I thought of, others thought of and he said, was a good marriage.

I did come to recognize that my weight was a serious issue for him and I had to do something about it but as far as he and I can tell, that was the only EN of his that I wasn't meeting--the attractive spouse thing. I have lost 40 lbs. and I am on my way to losing the other 60 that I need to lose.

I quickly figured out that this said a lot more about him than it said about me. It screamed his his own depression/bipolar stuff, his unwillingness to seek counseling, his conflict avoidance way of dealing with my weight issue, and his own feelings of emptiness that led him to enter an affair and to continue that affair for so long. I also think that one thing played into his affair that I haven't seen on these boards. He like to have a woman dependent on him. When I was younger, I was needy and clingy (not normal, good marriage inter-dependence but needs-to-go-get-some-counseling dependent). I saw my issues and got help. (I dealt with two crisis in my life as devestating as an affair/OC. I got help. I worked on my issues, my coping skills and my self-esteem). He went and found a needy/clingly younger (skinner) version of me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How do we forgive the other persons?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This one also came fairly easily for me. I am, by nature, forgiving because I have a sense of myself as needing much forgiveness. How could I fail to pass on God's infinite grace. I didn't want to be like the man in the Bible who was forgiven a huge debt and then demanded payment and had jailed a man who owed him a fraction of what he had just been forgiven.

I prayed for God to fill me with forgiveness when I had none of my own to extend. I prayed for exOW daily. It is a great exercise in submission to God's authority to pray for your enemies and the bonus is that it frees you from your own inner churning.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How do we build our self-respect anew?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">After the first couple months, mine wasn't too shabby. I just kept reminding myself that while I bore some responsibility for the state of our marriage, I was not responsible for his choice to have an affair and continue it for 7 years. I kept telling myself "This says a lot more about him than it does about me or even our marriage."

MJ

MJ~~

I am a nurse practitioner by trade. I am a Beatles fan since I was a young teen ... hence the name Pepperband ... which is a reference to the Sgt. Pepper album. My nic got shortened to "Pepper" and sometimes shorter "Pep"... sometimes I get called Dr. Pepper ... but I never call myself that! I have sent another MB'er an email where I called myself "Pepperspray" LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Which, in my opinion is more accurate!

Dr. Pepper is made of prune juice isn't it????
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm?

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

I totally agree with your "continuum" idea .... we're all somewhere along that line sometimes in our life.

By the way MJ ... I use cognitive therapy skills in one of the workshops where I teach ... the skills are so helpful ... and keeps me from that "stinkin' thinkin'" ..

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ August 23, 2002, 11:52 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Pepperband </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">what do YOU think is a secret ingredient for FULL recovery</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dare I answer this?

The secret ingredient is full, trusting, not-be afraid-anymore-love.

I might add you will recognize it when it's present.

I feel it's easier for older women than women with younger c's.

H and I had/have a lot of free time to vacation together. To make love whenever. To fill each other's emotional needs more readily then someone w/young ones.

Also makes it easier not to have visitation, that may interfere with recovery/years, to be free after paying the dues together raising a family already with little " young" time left together.

Perhaps if I were younger I'd stay from necessity and fear. At first I stayed from both, but soon began to realize a life beyond "Mr. Wonderful".

That's when the transformation took place.

EN's met, POJA, signed, honesty policy in effect, lb's vanished...and well...you know the rest.

Only from an oldie's perspective....a oldie w/18 mo old girls...heh...heh....g-lynton would appreciate that one!

love
Debi

<small>[ August 23, 2002, 10:00 PM: Message edited by: gemini1 ]</small>

Pepper and BTDT,

these are GREAT! Thank you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hey Jenny great seeing ya!

catnip--I think it's called the fog... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />