Folks, if the OW is upset to bad. Her feelings are a moot point and her problem. Remember, these OW are always saying how the wife is his problem? So, her life with her illegetimate child is her problem. The law says CS is all that is required.

needs to move on stated below that some men are cowards who don't do right by oc? WRONG. If his wife and his family are important to him, and he loves them and doesn't want to hurt them, and they don't want to know oc and he agrees, why is he a coward? Cause he doesn't chose OC? What a selfish load of garbage. What you are saying is that it is mandatory that the wife and his children with her suffer and hurt, so the oc doesn't? Where is it written that oc is the most important person in the equasion here?

Also, as for the oc, I doubt they would look up their father. When he/she is 18 and they realize that their mom was an ow, I'm sure they will also realize just what their mother was, and we all know what society thinks of ow.

It steams me to see OW think their children are the most important one involved. The MM and his wife are protecting their children too. To them and their extended families,those are the ones that are loved and matter. You and your family will care for your oc and the oc will matter to them. But the XMM, BW and their children have a right to move on and forget all the trouble and pain of the affair. Especially since, accidental pregnancies are hardly the norm anymore are they? So one womans actions are pretty much ruining lots of lives and hurting lots of people, her oc too. I'm not saying that women are in charge of BC. But come on. How many men are told that OW are on the pill and then get suckered into an unwanted child?

LynnG,

Thank you for this post. I am the WH and the OW is pregnant and I am in the place of making decisions right now. I love my wife and want her back so badly. My situation happened during a separation that my wife wanted. She actually wanted a divorce and I was fed up with alot of the things that went on in our marriage. I believe that no contact is the best thing if my wife and I are to work things out. I believe that the OW can't complain because she is in control of the situation and is looking out for nobody but herself. She doesn't care about how it affects anybody. I am glad to hear your words and makes me feel better about my choice.

Fo

lg,,,,,, i agree with everything you said except the one about oc looking up father in 18 years. i think this is most definately a possibility. also i don't think that oc will grow up and view their mother as anything but a person that made a mistake ( i hate that term but it seems to fit here) in their life. oc will still love their mother and they should.

Pops thanks. At least you can see past just what you went through.

Fofatty........easy to blame that ow you chose to have sex with uh? Accidents happen and if you choose nc that is great....but in order to blame someone else that you are 50% to blame is just WRONG!!!!!!

Lynn:
WOW!!!! Have some build up anger do you? How dare you make those acusations. That is very wrong. I have two kids born in a marriage and let me tell you I am a very good mother. I'm probally a better mother and father in a single mode than a lot of mom and dads together.
I don't care about mm not wanting nc that is his choice and his w. But is he coward....you bet. It took two people to get there what happened. I don't mind taking my share of the blame, but how dare the w because her wh stepped out on her try and put it all on the ow. Her h was there doing the deed. WOW......I've heard some stuff, but this took the cake. Your H should of thought about what he was doing to HIS w and kids before he took the chance of stepping out. I've seen many many ow take all the blame and it's not for the ow to take all the blame. When a man has sex, there is a chance a baby will happen and it's his responsibilty to step up to the plate and be the man he was in her BED and be a man with that child as well. I can gaurntee you that while he WAS in her BED he was saying a lot of crap to her as he did when he came home to W and said a lot of crap to her too.

Needtomoveon: OW who know that the men are married and already have a family, and then get pregnant, (and don't tell me it was accidental in this day and age)deserve nothing except child support. Yes the men are to blame too, but for heaven's sake....don't get all righteous about it when the immorality of the situation speaks for itself.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Nina too:
<strong>Needtomoveon: OW who know that the men are married and already have a family, and then get pregnant, (and don't tell me it was accidental in this day and age)deserve nothing except child support. Yes the men are to blame too, but for heaven's sake....don't get all righteous about it when the immorality of the situation speaks for itself.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes I will tell you I DID NOT GET PREGNANT on purpose. Did Pops wife get pregnant on purpose? Guess what....my niece just got pregnant on purpose with her husband a few weeks ago. Let me tell you a little about my back ground.
I tried to have a baby for 2 years with my h. We went to the doctor and was told I have about 5 conditons to prevent me from getting pregnant without the help from drugs and procedures. So another 4.5 years of every month of fertilty drugs and insemanations and Invtro. Several miscarriages later I finally become pregnant with my twins. After my twins I still have those conditons....have sex with h several years after the fact.....leave him had s with xmm one to two times a week for over a year it took 13 years for this "accident" to happen. So five years after I have my kids where I am almost 41 years old I get pregnant. Excuse me....maybe there a some ow who did it purposly. I know I did not and I was very content with my two kids getting ready to break up with xmm myself and had no intentions of having any more kids with anyone including xmm. It was the very last thing I had on my mind. I can't tell you the shock I was in. It affected everything I'm doing right now....but because of what I've gone through to have my two kids I did the right thing and I'm keeping the baby. Regardless of that fact which I know most women are not infertltle......if the man worried about his kids and w and all, no matter what the ow said a condom use be used. How does h know who that ow was with? IF you would of read my post correctly, I never said that a xmm had to see his kids, child support is all that is required....but it still takes two and both should stand up to what has happened and be there for that child. We don't live in a perfect world, and thank god most of the ow I've talked to have done a great job without the xmm, but the inocent child is who suffers. No child is any better than any other child and whose to say whose to be loved and whose not to be. Of course all the adults involved must be ADULTS.

Sorry, Nina I'm with you. The point of being married is to have a family together. If OW and MM are pregnant it is sad, but the child is not of a married couple from the start and so is not protected by marriage. Accident or not, the choice to have sex outside of marriage was made. The risk is always there.

CS yes, but if you have sex outside of marriage you may hurt the most innocent. It is sad, but that child will pay the price for someone fooling around outside of marriage. That's my opinion. The OW has several choices, adoption, raising it with CS and no contact with the father or terminating the pregnancy. She would not be in that situation if she had stayed away from a married man. It is sad, but the fact is he is married. I am sorry for the child. The bast answer for me would be to give that child a chance at a good life with two parents by giving it up for adoption. That is just my opinion, and that is what is great about this country. I don't mean to sound harsh, but I believe in marriage.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So one womans actions are pretty much ruining lots of lives and hurting lots of people, her oc too. I'm not saying that women are in charge of BC. But come on. How many men are told that OW are on the pill and then get suckered into an unwanted child? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'd like to know why the OW gets the blame for ruining the lives? Isn't the MM 50% to blame? I also heard many of stories where the MM tells the unknown OW that he divorced or other lies. I heard the lies my WH told his OW to sucker them in. He even had my best friend believing it. How about the men who tell the OW that he had a vasectomy then try and tell her the child can't be mine. Only to find out differently when the DNA test come back. You make it sound like that all OW are on the hunt for MM, that they conned the MM then trapped him by getting pregnant. I also know that some BW are in denial. They want to believe that their WH was lured in by the evil OW. I know all to well about the cheating H and the OW.

As for the pregnacies being planned. That these OW get pregnant on purpose. How about the MM that tell their OW how much they want them to have their baby? Yes, there are you OW women out there that probably do get pregnant on purpose, thinking that the MM will leave the wife and make a family with them. That is wrong. The whole affair thing is wrong to begin with . Then yo have the MM/OW actually plan on a child together. They are so far caught up in affairyland they don't realize the damage it will do. Then you do have your honest to goodness mistakes. Where the MM/OW do use birth control and it fails. But no matter what I take it the only answer is for the OW to abort the child? And you have to ralize to, that yes the pregnacies/oc are devistating to the MM W and children (not all MM have children though), the pregnacy is also devistating to the OW to.

I guess the OW should know the MM better before sleeping with him.

As much as society changes, the woman is stuck carrying the child and so unfortunately has to be more responsible or she will get stuck. The MM is also 50% to blame, but it isn't his body that carries the fetus.

What does the MM risk? Child support and getting more of his DNA out there. That's all. It is still the woman who bears the burdon, and so the woman has to protect herself by saying NO-end of story.

people, people,,,,,,,, a married person who breaks his vows and has an affair is 100% WRONG

a single person who knowing has an affair with a married person showing no respect for the bs is 100% WRONG

2 married people having an affair with each other are each 100% WRONG

there is no 50% this or that. to be 50% wrong is just a way of saying "hey it wasn't all me".

if a ow has a child from a mm, forget the blaming crap. you will never understand it anyway. (fh and i still can't figure out why she made that choice.) if mm chooses nc that's ok. it doesn't make him a coward. what makes people cowards is sneaking around behind someones back. nc is a tuff choice for everyone. so is working on a marriage that has something so cruel thrust upon it.

now that we have the responsibility part cleared up let us work on how to help each other get thru this mess while considering each individuals specific circumstances.

let's not let this board become the way it was a several months back.

i personally like seeing the posters that helped me thru my crisis back here posting again.

they left for some time because people started to take things personal.

if you don't like what someone writes, let it go.
you don't run everyone that cuts you off while driving off the road do you?

pops I couldn't have said it better myself! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Let the blame wars stop, please.

People here are hurting.
love
Debi

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ,,,,,,,, a married person who breaks his vows and has an affair is 100% WRONG

a single person who knowing has an affair with a married person showing no respect for the bs is 100% WRONG

2 married people having an affair with each other are each 100% WRONG

there is no 50% this or that. to be 50% wrong is just a way of saying "hey it wasn't all me".

if a ow has a child from a mm, forget the blaming crap. you will never understand it anyway. (fh and i still can't figure out why she made that choice.) if mm chooses nc that's ok. it doesn't make him a coward. what makes people cowards is sneaking around behind someones back. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pops

Your whole post was right on target.To bad all of us can't have the same understanding as you do.

Getting pregnant takes two, no doubt about it. But get real here. If an unwanted, unplanned pregnancy occurs and the father wishes it to be aborted, he can't force her to an abortin clinic, nor can he force her to give it up for adoption. SHE made the choice to keep and raise a child of a man who is not available to be a father. She should live with it and quit bytching that the XMM and his family want nothing to do with her child.

That should have been a consderation when she got pregnant. Does she really want a child with a man who is married with children? Is that a wise and sound choice for this child?

Certainly, both are guilty, but if the man opts out, but pays CS, he is not a coward for putting his family where it should have been,and that is first.

My point is that some OW think they can call shots and that their child should be part of the XMM's family and get to know the siblings. That now that their child is here, all others should put their feelings aside and put those of her child above anyone and everyone. That is hardly fair. It is hypocritcal and mean. The children of the marriage have never been a concern to her, and yet now the BW, is expected to show concern for the oc? That is beyond belief. The XMM, and OW, in the affair are soley to blame for the mess they created. Totally and 100%.

Once the pregnancy has happened, there are choices to be made. Legal choices. It is not illegal to get an abortion. If the father wanted an abortion and OW choses not to have one, then she HAS made a decision that effects XMM, his wife, and his children. She is responsible for that choice.

I will say that I am to blame for allowing the situation to occur. However, LynnG is right. I made the decision to have sex, I knew the risks. However the OW has all the power if she is pregnant. She is thinking about her child, but not anyone else involved. A man has the choice to sleep with a women, but known after. All the cards are in her hands. There are options out there that OW don't contemplate becasue they want to hold power over the man. I will take take the 100% blame on my stupidity. I should have never allowed myself to get in this situation. But I have no choices but to grin and bear it. SO yes, there is bitterness towards OW becasue they know exactly what they are doing even if the pregnancy was an accident.

Lynn:
Do you have kids? How easy would it be for YOU to abort one of your kids? How easy would it be for you to put one of your kids up for adoption? No matter if Joe blow or mm got me pregnant I'm going to have my child. I personally don't care if xmm has any contact with his child. It's not my cross to bear except to explain to the oc when it's old enough in an mature nonjudgmental way why his father is not around. You are 100% right it's the uh choice to have or not have contact. It's that right of any man who bears a child. Why should a uh be different. Coward yes. I'm sorry but I can't be swayed on this. If one of your girlfriends were to get pregnant no matter the circumstances and the father of the child was not around you maybe able to see this that way. You may still see that the father has that choice but as you get to know your girlfriends child and hear your girlfriend talk, you would be more willing to accept her point of view....why because it's not your h involved and it's your friend whom you like and care for and see her hurting. Your watching this child grow up and have feelings for your friend and child. The only difference here is you can't stand ow and oc because they tore your life apart along with your uh who at this point you feel is the victim along with you. You say the ow never takes the w or kids into consideration and that her family should be put last over the oc. I have never said that nor have I heard someone say that yet. I don't feel that the wife is obligated to do that. Do I think the oc has the same rights....yeap I sure do. Uh spread his dna out there and because the ow won't have an abortion or adopt the child the oc has to suffer. You don't think the ow feels bad. Your willing to forgive your uh for this horrible act. Your willing to allow your uh the benifit of a doubt. He was just as guilty as ow. Ow has to deal with having this child by herself, being regjected 100% by uh because it's his choice, and dealing with the name calling and put downs from the w. So it's ok for the w to do this, not the ow? Everyone involved is paying for this. Everyone. It's done, and you've choosen to forgive your uh and rebuild. You have to accept the choice of a oc in the picture either now or possibly somewhere down the line. If you forgive your uh and choose to stay with him you have to accept this. On the basic subject....most of the bs I've notice on this board are taking the control of the uh's role to face ow regarding cs and visitation if it's going to be. You guys are very lucky because I would not allow it. No judge will force me either. My stbxh is making decisions with me and talking to me about his kids....not his new wife or girlfriend. It's either an attorney or the uh. Just because you have to talk to uh does not mean ow wants this man back after the aftermath of ending the affair and what has happened. You don't have your mom call your power co., to arrange payments for you. It's just life. I'm saying that if uh wants contact that w can't be involved, that would not be best for the child. I'm just saying w did not make the child w has only control over uh not me or my child.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by fofatty1771:
<strong>I will say that I am to blame for allowing the situation to occur. However, LynnG is right. I made the decision to have sex, I knew the risks. However the OW has all the power if she is pregnant. She is thinking about her child, but not anyone else involved. A man has the choice to sleep with a women, but known after. All the cards are in her hands. There are options out there that OW don't contemplate becasue they want to hold power over the man. I will take take the 100% blame on my stupidity. I should have never allowed myself to get in this situation. But I have no choices but to grin and bear it. SO yes, there is bitterness towards OW becasue they know exactly what they are doing even if the pregnancy was an accident.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">fofatty, I'll ask you the same thing I asked Lynn, but take it one step further. Would your w ever abort one of her kids? Lets say the ow did have an abortion or put it up for adoption....are you going to be there by her side to help her with that awful choice she made (abortion talking about) that is going to tear her up inside and probaly be against everything she believes in? NO WAY!!! I ran into a gal who 20 years ago had an abortion. She was totally depressed 20 years later in counseling and on antidepresants. Very suicidal herself. 20 years later. Are you so selfish for your own reasons that you and no one else can understand that abortion is really not an option for some people? Then the fact with adoption....yes it is a noble thing to do....going through infertilty myself I consider it very unselfish to give your child up for adoption. Not all women bytch about nc. I don't have a problem with it because of my own feelings towards uh. It's his choice and his cross to bear. I know I'm capable of raising kids on my own. I know what I have to offer. Your situation is even more different if I recall. You and your W were seperated. If your w probaly would of never wanted you back you probaly would not be as upset over this child. If your any kind of person at all. xmm asked me to have an abortion. I asked him are you going with me to have it done? Are you going to be there for me to help pick up the pieces and get me through this? Heck no he's not. Your asking something of someone that is not like droping your dog off at the pound, it's a human life. It's breathing inside you, it's life. Xmm told me that when he found out I was pregnant he turned to his w. She had no idea why (as she still does not know of me being pregnant) he was so shocked and overwhelmed he turned to her. Since I've been pregnant there marriage is better than ever. Is it real he asked me? How could I answer that. He mentioned "even though it's through falshood", it's still better than it's ever been in 14 years. He's very pissed off at me for not having an abortion. That's his right to be. He wants no contact....that is his right. It does not mean that because he's pissed or overwhelmed over my pregnancy I should run off and abort my child inside my womb. I'm overwhelmed too. I never thought this could happen to me in a million years. This happens to other people...NOT ME. Just because it does not fit into your plans and your future is no reason to hold it against the ow for not aborting it or putting it up for adoption.

He would be a coward if he continued any contact with OW and hurt his family anymore.

I do not consider my H a victim, he is guilty of adultery and has paid the consequences in loss of respect. I eventually forgave, after a long time. OW, I owe her nothing as I never had a relationship with her and could care less what happens to her. I give her child the same amount of care and concern as she gave mine.

I do accept OC in picture as we pay CS, but I choose not not know or have OC in our family and this was a joint decision.

If UH wants contact, sorry, but his wife is included and she will have control over the OC while it is in her home. She actully would have that right. OW can't try to use child to play house.

I do have children, they were planned on (went of birth control)and welcomed into the world by both parents. Their well being and feelings come first. And due to the upheaval their father caused and the fear and pain, we chose no contact with OC as what is best for us, our marriage and our children. They are aware of also chose not to have anything to do with OC.

I believe that many OW assume that their child should be viewed as wonderful and welcome into MM's family. When that family says no, they get up tight and angry. When they were having sex with the father of other children, was she thinking of them? Was she concerned about their well being? Did she think how the fallout would hurt those kids? Did she even care? No.

This is the fault of the OW/MM. They caused it. The wife and children are hurt, the OC gets hurt. That is a fact. OW/MM knew this could happen and chose this. The consequences will now last a lifetime.

I usually just lurk here but I had to respond ti this thread.

In my case OW knew H was married and didn't care but H knew he was married and didn't care. I see that it could be easier to blame OW but they are both equally to blame.

H ended the relationship after a few months and found out she was pregnant when she was 4 months along. My H had to contact her she was not going to tell him she was pregnant with his child.

She was in her late 30's and figured this could be her last change to have a child so she wanted to keep it. I can understand that as a mother myself.

H couldn't be man enough to tell me the situation he was in so he kept it a secret until I found out when the oc was 18 months old. He had already bonded with this child and all my choices were gone. I either except the oc or not.

My H is to blame for it all! I don't know what he told OW and I am not anger with her because she did what she thought was right for her. She was not going to involve my H in the decision for keeping or not keeping OC. She wanted the child and she was willing to do it on her own.

My H loves this child which he should be commend for I guess but he lost the love and respect of his children with me. Who wins? No one, this child has a half time father and my children have no father in their eye for now. I lost a H of 23 years and it was all for lust (sex). I see no winners in this!

She now has a child who she loves but has medical problems and the reality of raising a child my herself is not what she thought it would be. A lot harder than she thought, I have talked to her and I found out she has a lot of serious medical issues and her life is a hard one.

My H lost his family and is living with his sister and see no way out of this because he know has to support 2 family's. Who wins! We can blame everyone but the children are the ones I feel really bad for because hers and mine are the with out a full time father.

I lost the love of my life (so I thought) and OW is trying to survive herself. Affair are a selfish act and when their in the middle of their fog no one thinks about the consequences that can happen.
I blame my h only because he didn't respect his marriage or me or his children. He is paying dearly for this.

I hope you all understand what I am trying to say I tend to ramble. I realize that we all hurt and what one does to get though this awful part in our life is very individual. One size does not fit all. I would support anyone in how they handle their own situation. I do not judge who am I, what works for you might not work for me.

LJ

lj, how awfull for you. Yes, the children all get hurt. But the OW and your husband are both equally to blame. They are the ones who have caused all the heartache. You did not.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> . When they were having sex with the father of other children, was she thinking of them? Was she concerned about their well being? Did she think how the fallout would hurt those kids? Did she even care? No.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The fahter wasn't thinking of any of these things either. Did he care? No. Birth control is a two way thing. Men have options out there also. Best things is to keep it in their pants. But as we know they have a hrd time doing that so how about a condem?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> there is bitterness towards OW becasue they know exactly what they are doing even if the pregnancy was an accident.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And the MM doesn't know what he's doing? He knows how babies are made.

People keep saying how its the OW responisablity for the child. Especially if the MM ask her to abort or give it up for adoption. How about turning the tables around. How about the women who get an abortion and the MM is against it? Some MM do want the OC and are turned away.

Either way the whole situation sucks. No one wins. And the biggest loser is the OC. Either the OC grows up learning that their father did't want anything to do with them, or their mother didn't give the father a chance. What would be great is if people would grow up, put their differences aside and do whats best for all the children involved.

Lynn:
Do you only read what you want to read and the rest is a blur. Let me spell it out for you. YES the uh has the right to nc. I don't dispute that in anyway shape or manner. It is my thoughts as which for my reasons I have this right to feel this way (as you have the right to feel your way) that he is a coward. As far as oc being in the uh home and the wife being in control. I never mentioned a word about that. I'm sure I have feelings about that if I felt an exterme was on the horizon, but basically if that were to happen, uh and w are visiting with the child, the w is the step mother and should be involved. What I said was when it comes to decisions regarding the child this child has a mother and father and the w has no right to try and control the ow position there and step in because she is afraid of contact between uh and ow. You have chosen to keep uh and you need to trust him. I know myself I don't want a relationship with uh anymore. He showed his true colors. I learned my lessons from this horrid mess. I'll be hurt for awhile but my main concern is my child and protecting my child as I do my two I already have. Nothing more nothing less. Just as you say we as ow show no feelings towards you......I'd say that is a 2 way street. How can you expect something from someone that your not doing yourself? It's not going to happen. If you show respect you'll get it hopefully. I know there are some people who are cruel and cause problems I really believe that a lot of ow just want whats best for there kids. I know it would be very hard for me to see my xmm being a daddy with my child and his w sharing in that after all that went on in our a, but I also know my first concern is my child and I have to respect that this is the situation and that is part of his family and it's for the best. If nc is the way he wants it then I just don't have to worry about it then do I? But I would do what is best for my child. My kids come first. My stbxh loves his kids with all his heart but has no clue what putting his kids first means. I have no choice but to accept that fact. It's just the way it is.

lj:
I am so sorry about what you've gone through. Yes I will say that lynn is right and ow is just as much to blame. I think deep down you know that, but you see what your uh has done to everyone involved. He sounds like my xmm that keeps secerts longer than need be and get himself in deeper. My xmm stills has not told w about this pregnancy let alone the affair. To his defensive ( I guess) I am high risk and have had several miscarriages in the past with xh....so I guess he is thinking why rock the boat if I don't go full term uh? He is also in couneling behind her back too. Crazymum is right though our children (all of them) are the ones that pay the ultimate price for all parties involved. Your post was very sweet and a nice change for the ow to see here.

Here we go again. YES WE ARE ALL AWARE THAT IT TAKES TWO. YES WE ARE ALL AWARE THAT THE FATHER WAS DISSING HIS OWN KIDS. YES WE KNOW THIS. I am talking about AFTER THE OC IS BORN.

What I am saying is that the OW feels that HER childs feelings are so much more important then the children in the marriage. That now that OC is here, that is all that should matter to everyone. I am asking where was HER concern for his children?

And now, suddenly the mantra is that all the adults need to do what is best for the children concerned. How noble. While MM/OW were blowing apart his childrens world, where was that thought? Only that the OC is here is it now important? The whole point of this post is that it is to damm bad if the OW doesn't like the choices that the married couple made. She is not part of their family or marriage and they need to do what is best for them.

The OW/OC are hurt? Yes. Is the OC innocent? Yes. Is the wife and her children innocent? Yes. But the MM/OW made decisions without thinking and lots of people were hurt in the process. The train has left the station and it can't come back. So, if the couple wants nothing to do with OC, that is a choice.



I

need to move on----you say you have to show respect to get respect? How is it that you intend to get respect from an BW? OW is sneaking around behind wife's back gets pregnant has oc and now thinks wife should have respect for her? Her plight? No way.

And before you go off on the oft heard "well MM didn't do this either" or "MM did that" I am not talking about MM. I am talking about OW and how they blame and blame and take no responsiblity for the destruction they have had a part in. They hide behind "the MM was dissing the wife, he didn't respect her,etc." So, since he didn't it was ok that you didn't either? So waht you are saying is that it is 100% mm fault?

Woman to woman,I don't even think you believe that.

Face it, we will never agree. The whole point of this post was for those BW who are worried about court proceedings and what to do. I am telling them that it makes no difference what the OW thinks or wants or whatever. I'm telling the BW to do what is best for them and their marriages and their families. Period. The ow's feelings mean nothing.

My point is that some OW think they can call shots and that their child should be part of the XMM's family and get to know the siblings.
This should be a decision reached by ALL (married couple and ow). If one party wants it, then it should at least be looked at.

I give her child the same amount of care and concern as she gave mine.
Okay, that's fair.

So, if the couple wants nothing to do with OC, that is a choice.
Again, that's fair if both parties in the couple want nothing to do.

That now that their child is here, all others should put their feelings aside and put those of her child above anyone and everyone.
It is also, HIS child.

YES WE ARE ALL AWARE THAT THE FATHER WAS DISSING HIS OWN KIDS.
And you demand that the father continue to diss at least one of his own kids.

It's all a difficult situation with lots of heartache and a lot of decisions to nake and deal with. But getting ticked off & demanding stuff will only get everyone more upset.

LynnG, you go girl. You are 100% right, OW need to be accountable. They made a choice to sleep with a MM that already had a family. They made a choice not to use birth control. They made a choice to have oc. As long as they receive child support they have nothing to fuss about.
Upset because MM family has nothing to do with child. Too Bad. It is called consequences. You made the choice to play now you have to pay. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Boo Hoo my foot. MM is going through his own consequences. Embarressment to have fathered a child out of wed lock, not being able to provide like he used to because of finanicial obligations. Having to have a constant reminder of the mistake he made. All OW that have made the choice to keep the child now have to shoulder the responsibility of raising your child by yourself. Is it easy no, but stop the pity party women have been raising children alone for years.
For those that ask would MM ask W to have abortion? No he wouldn't, why? Because he loves her (not you), he pledged to love her in front of friends and family. He never did that with you. Married couples plan their children. MM goes to doctor visits, gives back rub. Because he WANTED to have children with his WIFE.
Why would you think that he would be happy to have a baby with you? You were a fantasy and now the fantasy is broken. Is it fair no. But YOU put yourself in that position. When you didn't think enough of yourself not to get involved with a MM, period.
You have your consequences and MM has his. Is it fair no but life isn't fair, and I am pretty sure the W who has to suffer from both of your bad choices without any choice doesn't think it fair either.

<small>[ September 17, 2003, 02:21 PM: Message edited by: Iamsurviving ]</small>

Sorry Chris, what the OW wants or thinks has no bearing whatsoever on the decisions made in this house. Just as I was not consulted when the affair was going on.

She is a grown woman who had a child out of wedlock. PERIOD. I have no empathy or compassion for the life she has chosen for herself.

My children and their needs have always come first.

I am here, at the advice of a friend who posts on this board. I was livid that OW are on here whining about this and crying about that and all but demanding that their children be included in the MM family. How dare they assume so much is owed to them. How dare they judge anyone for their reaction to a painfull situation that the OW was 50% responsible for.

I am far far past dday. I am not in shock or hurt or pain right now. I am however, willing to be here for the BW who is in hell right now. The ones who are hurt,afraid, weak, shocked an confused. I am here to let them know that you do have power. You do have choices. And above all, the minute you hear the words pregnant other woman, run as fast as you can to the best divorce laywer you can find,even if you choose to work out your marriage and save your family. Let the laywer handle all details. No matter what you decide, but above all,protect and fight for your family, your children and your marriage if you decide to stay. Do not get swayed by the people who say this can be handled amicably. It can still be amicable, but always should be handled legally.

If you chose no contact, you can have it. You can have all checks, etc. handled through an attorney or 3rd party, set up thorugh the courts. This woman is no part of your family, and has proven in the past to have no respect for you, your children or your marriage,( and yes, she will point out everytime you bring that up that your husband didn't either, thereby making her participation in the affair justified) The oc is entitled to CS. That is law. She, however, is entitled to nothing.

If you and your husbands decide upon contact, she can't say when or where. And yes, you can be there and should. You can also pick up the child and take it here and there. She can't say that only MM can pick up, and it has to be at her home etc. The fact that it might be inconvienent to her, to bring OC to nearby restaurant,or other place is her problem, not yours. She got herself into this mess, not you. You don't even have to see or speak to her. This is where the laywer will serve you well. You and your husband can have court appointed visitation and never even see her.

The only way to have this work is with proper legal assistance. No way around it. Get it ASAP. Even if things are amicable, always always always get have a laywer. If your husband is confused then get one for sure.

The whole point of this message is that it is your life, your family and your marriage. The OW and how she feels about what you want or don't want mean nothing. If she pits a fit cause you come with your husband to pick up OC, and you are holding OC, to bad. You and he are a team. If she doesn't like it to bad. If you and he decide that NC works best, and she is running around calling grandparents, and other family memebers, this is where the laywer will do wonders. Harrasment is not legal, and your family deserves to be protected also.

You were fooled by your H and now have to live with the fallout. But you can and do have control and can get what you want. Just always do it legally and you will be ok.

Sorry Chris, what the OW wants or thinks has no bearing whatsoever on the decisions made in this house.
Seems it did have a LARGE impact on the decisions made in the house.

I'm not saying one should "just accept it" or be okay with it. Just that it is something that needs to be considered.
Just as child support will DEFINTELY impact the current household, whether you want it to or not.

Also, this is not simply about the ow. It is about the OC also. And belive it or notm this child is your husbands, the same as his children with you.

Stinks for sure, but it has to be dealt with in some way.

She is a grown woman who had a child out of wedlock.
But your h ALSO is a grown man and ALSO had a child out of wedlock.

My children and their needs have always come first
As how it should be. But the same goes for your husband.

Preach Lynn, Preach! These is something this board has been missing accountablity.
Wives if you are saving your marriage it needs to be on your terms and as Lynn so well said protect your family LEGALLY.
You don't owe the OW anything. She sure wasn't thinking of you when she was with your H.
The only thing that is a given is child support. Go through your attorney and that is it. OW is out of your hair finally. You can move away with no forwarding address only your attorney needs. You can get your life back.

These is something this board has been missing accountablity.
Is that what you are proposing?
How is a father being accountable to his children if he abandons them simply because his wife DEMANDs it?

OW feelings DO NOT MATTER
But what about the feelings of the OC?

How do you know the W is the one demanding it? Have you ever thought there is no evil W that the H never wanted to have a child with OW. Since the child is here then he'll pay but H doesn't want the reminder of the mistake he made.
The accountability lies with the OW that she made her choices now she has to deal with all of the ups and downs with it.
Did YOU think of the oc feelings when you had a baby with a man that wasn't married to you. Now YOU have to explain why the father isn't there. You have to explain to the oc that you made the choice to sleep with a man that is already married. You have to tell the child why you didn't think enough of yourself to wait until you were married to plan a family with a father that WANTED it. You had a choice. I don't give a d***, no one made you have an affair, no one made you get pregnant you are 100% responsible just as he is. You could have told him NO. Try it NO, easy isn't it.

<small>[ September 17, 2003, 02:57 PM: Message edited by: Iamsurviving ]</small>

How do you know the W is the one demanding it?
Because that is what Lynn is implying. The OW/OC have NO say and their feelings/desires should IN NO WAY be taken into account. The wife is the one who DESERVES to call the shots BECAUSE she is the wife.

The accountability lies with the OW that she made her choices now she has to deal with all of the ups and downs with it.
The accountability lies with the ow AND the ws, whether the wife wants it or not.

By law, the husband owes child support and that is that. That is not technicaly abandoning the OC. His needs are being met by court supported CS. This man alreay has a wife and family, their needs are to come first.

As for the wife demanding anything, well of course she can. She can say anything she wants. The marriage goes through ups and downs. If they love each other and work out their problems and mistakes, only their opinions and views matter.

If part of her willingness to work out this mistake is no contact, and he, wanting to save his marriage, agrees, she has that right. It is discussed and upon. Let the laywers handle the details. Let them know what you want. It is sad sad thing that the oc probably will not know it's father. But,that is a consequence of OW actions, and the MM. His children, are growing up with a man who let their mother and them down and are hurt also.

Either way, this situation that the OW and the MM have created has hurt people, oc included. But his family should not be made to pay for his sins with contact with the oc if they chose not to. Maybe if the OW & MM had phoned the wife before they jumped in the backseat, this all could have been avoided. The pain is all around. Innocent people are hurt. OW has to own up to the fact that her participation in a sin has created a child, a child who may or may not be seen as a blessing. When she explains to oc about his roots and calls the MM a coward for not including him in his life, is she also going to say how she never cared one bit about his wife or his children? That she had unprotected sex with a man not available to her, and therefore oc? I doubt it. To many OW believe that they have no responsibility to the wife "she is his problem". Then when and oc comes, suddenly her problem (their oc) is now everyones problem and how the BW has to do this or that. That is just plain wrong. OW should take there little blessings and leave the XMM and his family alone, if that is what they want. But so many want money and the XMM to come everyother weeken, without the wife and play house, just like a little family. Where they get this thought process is simply amazing. Do they live in some paralell univererse or something? Do they have any empathy for anyone else? Do they have a conscience? No. Everytime someone calls them on responsibility for the mess they helped create, their answer is somehow twisted to say "well mm is the one who was cheating on his wife, not me", or "his marriage is his problem". Totally ignoring their own accountability towards another. Now that an OC is in the picture, suddenly MM owes them everything. Well, yes, and it's called child support and that is it. He owes you nothing, your child is your problem if you chose to keep it,as long as he sends the check. You are the one what had that baby, you knew the situation, deal with it.

Just like a few post I've read where the couple file a fony legal seperation just so the oc won't get what the oc has coming to him. There are so many double standards on this board. NO ONE said that the ow did not feel bad for there actions! NO ONE said that the w and her kids feelings don't come into play! I believe I said the interest of the kids should come first. At least the ow is not trying to play games to cover up uh responsiblities all together. Do you really really know what your uh was telling ow? Why is that every ow tried to get pregnant on purpose? Not all ow women are evil evil venditive people. As you want to put your kids needs first so does the ow with her child. As someone posted....this child regardless of it being wanted or not.......is your uh child as well. Lynn when I said about Respect....it's after the fact. No one asked you to respect the ow for what she did, but just that this is the situation and it's done. In order to get it resolved you must respect each other enough not to play games and put addional pain on each other. EVERYONE involved is in pain regardless if they deserve to be. Yes, put yourself in control of your marriage and what is best for you, but do it honestly and remember your your uh put you in this position and don't even try to control the ow and her child. That is not a legal move....it's a personal move. I also put in my post that if uh and w wanted contact that needed to be respected by the ow and know that w if a part of uh life and is the "step" mother of your oc. W will be a part of that child's life. Accept it and get along with it. It's things you have to do when you chose to stay with your uh. It's like I told uh. Things that were major issues in his marriage....I told him that she was not going to change neither was he, that he needed to stop cheating, accept things as they were, stop complainig about and live with it happily.....or leave her. Are those not the choices? Pretty simple I'd say. As far as telling my child when the time is right? What do you think my child will hate me and resent for having him/her out of wedlock and it's my fault the father is not around? I don't think so. I choice to give birth and not abort this child. His father choice to not love and be around for his/her life and abondantment him/her. Whose he's going to hate?

Once again, Chris. H is paying child support, he is being accountable. The child has not been abandoned, hungry etc.
This of course is not what OW envision, they think the MM will be there for the pregnancy, the 3 am feedings, family vacations, holidays. OW made the final choice to have the oc, they have cs and they also have to raise that child by themselves. And when the oc asks why my Dad isn't around. You get to tell the child that you had a child with a man that was married. And that didn't love you. You didn't think enough to wait until you had found someone that loved you and WANTED a child with you. That is your accountability. MM has met his to you CS, that is all you get.

Can someone please point out to me how this thread is contributing to their recovery? You have the BS at one end of the spectrum and the OW at the other end. There are two completely different perspectives here. I highly doubt that the parties involved will come to 100% agreement on the topic at hand. So, it looks like a lot of argument and finger-pointing, with no real progress. Why? Other than venting, what is the purpose of this thread? Honestly, I would like to know. If each of the members involved in this thread can just stop for a moment and think about one positive that comes from the discussion, then that's terrific. But, if you can't, maybe it's time to move on to something more productive. Please, just consider what I'm saying....please.

Good point Oh....very good point....I'm done with it. It's way past compromise on ideas and where the other is going neither of us can see it.

LynnG,

You go girl. I can see both sides of the coin but the OW is the only one who gets to control the cards. If she knows the situation and still wants to bring a child into the world she needs to deal with it. You want to talk about accountability. Ow wants me to be involved but is moving half way across the country. OW are only thinking of themselves in this situation. I will respect them for making the decision to keep the child, but they should know that they are keeping the baby based on there beliefs. No where does the father's point of view matter. It is a shame for OC, but OW just cares that it is a life not what kind of life that OC will have. OW keeping OC is only to keep a tie to the MM.

So those who don't agree child suport is enough, that man is coward to only support, are you suggesting he should make an honorable woman of OW? leave his wife and children and become permanent in OC's life?
Excuse me. But I believe paying for 18 to 21 yrs is not cowardly!
I believe he should not be part of the childs life unless the OW is neglecting that child or abusing it. Then he has a responsibility to step in.
Better for OW to be free of him except for support, and find herself a man to marry and help her raise her child! Or go it alone. She knew the risk, she took it.
Support is all MM is responsible for. To have to bring child for visitation every other week or so forth would only create more pain for his wife and family who are totally innocent here!
Many women support their children alone after divorce so OW had her choice in this matter.
I'm sure many think MM will run to divorce and marry them and many do try this trap. But it comes back to bite them in in [censored]!
I think the child would be better off adopted out to a couple who can't have children. But then some mothers cannot give up their babies.
I know a couple who just finished paying the last CS payment after 21 yrs! But they live coast apart and have saved their marriage this way.
If you can't stand the fire, better put the matches down.
I will say this, had my H gotten OW pregnant, I would have thrown him at her and let him pay me!
Fortunately, he had a vacectomy after our son was born.
I personally do not want a H who has conceived with OW, nor would I want him around our children. So I'd let them both work and pay me, waltz away merrily and never look back!
Just my opinion.
but for those who want to stayed married, pay the Ow and get lost.
LouLou

Chris, I said if the OW is upset that MM/BW do not want contact, to bad. They have that right and should not care if OW is upset. SHE DOESN'T MATTER.

Accountability: If he is paying CS, he is accountable. PERIOD.

Need to move on:

Phoney separations are perfectly legal. May not be fair, but they are legal and they work great. Especially if BW suddenly loses job (ie. paid in cash). None of this is fair. You and H hit me, I hit back. Totally legal and a good attorney will walk you right through it. Well worth the monye.

Respect-You sound like a 3 year old caught with her hand in the cookie jar. Now that you are caught and have oc, suddenly you deserve respect? Give me a break. This is such a line of Bull. You were part of an affair that ripped the fiber of a marriage and family apart. You deserve nothing. Not a thought, nothing. Your oc may legally be entitled to cs, but that is that. Respect? Hardly. Respect is earned by actions, and any woman who would knowingly have a child with a man who is married, thereby creating huge pain for not only her own child, but his others as well, the word respect is far from it. And don't jump on how "well if you forgive and blah blah blah your UH, blah blah" it don't wash lady. The UH, if he is working it out has alot of actions in his life where a relationship can be rebuilt. Your only action,pertaining to BW, their kids, and families is that of an OW. Why should any of them ever respect you? Based on what? Your cheating with the UH? Your run to the courts to grab money away from them?

Yeah, let this end. OW here have proven my points.

1. They assuem their child should come before any other children, even if it hurts other children.

2. They do not hold themselves accountable for their part in the destruction of a family. It is all MM's fault, as long as he is lying and disrespecting his wife and kids, it is all ok, and if caught it is all his fault.

3. They all get pregnant by accident,and that it is now the mans responsibility to have BC. Were we not all taught in 10th grade to not have sex without BC, as most men will not even think about it? I guess only OW are the ones who missed that class.

OW keeping OC is only to keep a tie to the MM.

fofatty, i just could not help myself!!!! Please that is so ego building what you just said. Why is it that just because the ow keeps her child (have you notice I normally put her) she wants the ties to stay with you? I think no I know I'll be better off raising my child byself versus with xmm in the picture. I have no quams at all about that and have posted that over and over and over and over and did I metion over again. Is your xow moving for a better paying job or to have support from her family? That would make sense....and maybe just maybe she is just leaving the door open if by some slight chance you change your mind to have contact with your oops I mean her child.

Better for OW to be free of him except for support

New Branch....I agree 100%

Lynn:
you must really be a hard one when in a dispute with someone. You only see what you feel you can fight against. Read Read Read. Don't look at everything as we are out to get you. My gosh......As for my xmm.....I have not put his w through anything....she knows nothing!!!!!! NOTHING not even of a affair. He and his w put themselves in a mess years and years ago. When I talked about respect....it had nothing to do with me bing caught in the cookie jar.....but you can not see past your own tunnel vision. I can least see what I've done to his family (when and if he does tell them) my family, and my life!!!!!! Don't preach to me Lynn.....I'm not stupid....and Lynn it is against the law. I work for the top 3rd attorney in Calif. It's a loophole, but it's not legal!!!!!!! One more thing....I've had many chances to rat him out....I'm getting NOT one dime for this pregnancy....my choice...my state I can. I've left it up to him if and when he does. I have accepted all the terms! I could care a less if my child ever sees his father. Who would want a man around my child who is not proud of him.....I sure don't.

Cry me a river, oh cry me a river.
Take your child support and MOVE ON.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Iamsurviving:
<strong>Cry me a river, oh cry me a river.
Take your child support and MOVE ON.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Whose crying a river? Can't a ow be just as strong as the bw?

Well, I am so impressed, you work for an Attorney in California? LOL. As if that is impressive? Isn't that state all messed up with their liberal laws and now damm near broke? Yeah, the legal system in California is real impressive!!!!

You are the one with tunnel vision. The oc is so born and you and others like you expect XMM to throw open his home, and of course his wallet, kick his wife and their children aside, to welcome the offspring that was created with some wonton woman in an illicit affair. Hardly.

Why are you on MB. This board is for support of those in the marriage. What pearls of wisdom are you pontificating about, that helps them? You blame their husbands, call them cowards for ignoring your offspring, arguing with others. What is your point. I am here to tell my fellow BW to get the attorneys immediately. To DEMAND, yes DEMAND that tests be done, that their children be protected and that the wishes of the OW do not matter and should not matter to them at all. What is your point? Don't they have a right to know that the legal system has tons of loopholes that they can use LEGALLY to their advantage? That they have rights, and that the OW and the OC do not have any control over anything. That is what I am here for. Why are you here?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> . They assuem their child should come before any other children, even if it hurts other children.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well I seem to think your lumping all OW in one catergory. I never assumed my XMM should put the children before anyone else. In my case my XMM has no children with his XW. I do not push my kids on him. If he wants to see them then he may. I do not get child support from him. In fact my XMM took me to court for rights to the kids. He lost. My XMM is the one who is still sneaking around lying to his XW about the kids. I disagree with it. But its his life not mine. He is the one who has to live with the lies. I'm moving on, realized my mistake and is trying to better myself.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 2. They do not hold themselves accountable for their part in the destruction of a family. It is all MM's fault, as long as he is lying and disrespecting his wife and kids, it is all ok, and if caught it is all his fault.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hold my self 100% accountable for what happen. If I wasn't week I would have turned away his advances. He ruined my family as much as I ruined his. Better yet, I was the one who let him into my life. In to my marriage and let him help ruin it. When I told my H of the affair, I took full blame. To this day, XMM still thinks it was more than an affair and is still trying to get things going again while still pleasing the XW. Not right.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 3. They all get pregnant by accident,and that it is now the mans responsibility to have BC. Were we not all taught in 10th grade to not have sex without BC, as most men will not even think about it? I guess only OW are the ones who missed that class.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'll be the first to admitt the first pregnacy with MM was planned. We talked and planned the baby. Wasn't my doing to trap him. We planned the child togehter. And the commen that men will not even think about bc, lame excuse. They're just as much responible for it as the OW is.

As an Ow and a BW, I would like to say this. Not all OW are the same, just like all BW are not the same. This OW takes full responisibility for her actions. I almost ruined my family. i do not push my kids on to the OM, he sees them on his own free will. I never stated that men who have NC with the oc are cowards. But lets face it we all have different views on this subject.

I have a H who chooses NC with his OC, I don't agree with it. His XOW is trying to push the oc on to his family so she can get more $$. It's wrong. She plays games with me when setting up visitation times so the kids can play. Not all OW are this way.

The XW in my case has had me attacked while hanging on to my daughter, she has threatened to harm her and has wished her dead. She even accused me of abusing my children. I do not call his house unless there is an emergency with the kids. He ahs even told both the XW and I that our daughter may call and talk with him whenever she wants. I don't allow it due to knowing it will only cause more trouble.

I found this on another board and thought this BW has both courage and wisdom.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> We all know it's crappy and uncalled for, my question is this, should a man
>that has fathered a child with his ow, be responsible and be a part of that
>child's life?

I am living this as we speak, as some of you already know...And yes it is a very difficult thing to deal with...But the truth is I don't feel it is as difficult to deal with as I imagined it would be...Why? Well, I believe in that every thing happens for a reason...Nothing in life just happens...Whether its Karma, whether its fate I don't know...My DH has his own speculations and pretty much they are similar to mine, for the most part...

This is so fresh in my life but to answer your question...It is absolutely his responsibility to be a part of this child's life...It is HIS child...And his child is innocent to her parents errors and yes irresponsibility's...She deserves to know the love of her father...It is her right...

Interesting enough the OW sent me an email a few days ago...It was as evil as she is...That's OK she's hurt too I imagine and chooses to direct it at me...But she mentioned that it must be killing me that they have a child together...It is not killing me...I look forward to being a stepmom...I am beyond wallowing. I choose to step up and make the best of what I have been given...Be true to myself and my spirit...And everything else will fall into place...

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I am not suggesting the ws and the ow remain in contact. Just that the ws MAY want to have contact with the OC and it is something that should be considered by all IF it is something he wants.

But his family should not be made to pay for his sins with contact with the oc if they chose not to.
What if the family has no contact but the father does? How is the family being made to "pay for his sins"? So he's gone for a few hours on Saturday morning.

This man alreay has a wife and family, their needs are to come first.
Quit ignoring the fact that the husband NOW has one more family member.

If part of her willingness to work out this mistake is no contact
I'm confused. She is willing to make a demand(no contact)?

When she explains to oc about his roots and calls the MM a coward for not including him in his life,
What? How is he a "coward"? The betrayed spouse/wife does not want him in his (OC's) life.

Then when and oc comes, suddenly her problem (their oc) is now everyones problem and how the BW has to do this or that.
What does the betrayed wife have to do? Nothing. Let the father see his child (not see the ow). Why does the father have to "play house, just like a little family"?

Now that an OC is in the picture, suddenly MM owes them everything. Well, yes, and it's called child support and that is it. He owes you nothing, your child is your problem if you chose to keep it,as long as he sends the check.The child is HIS problem too.
If your kids (got boys?) grow up and get a girl preggers when they are 17/18, are you gonna tell them to just walk away, it's her problem?

You are the one what had that baby, you knew the situation, deal with it.
And the ws is the one who had the baby, he needs to do the same. It may be more than simply paying child support, if he chooses.

Other than venting, what is the purpose of this thread? Honestly, I would like to know. If each of the members involved in this thread can just stop for a moment and think about one positive that comes from the discussion, then that's terrific.
Maybe it is just to vent, what's wrong with that?
It's a discussion over the issues.

No where does the father's point of view matter.
You're right. Andthe father's pov SHOULD be taken into account. By the wife and by the ow.

I believe he should not be part of the childs life unless the OW is neglecting that child or abusing it. Then he has a responsibility to step in.
What if HE wants to be a part of the oc's life (not the ow's life)?

They assuem their child should come before any other children, even if it hurts other children.
You are assuming exactly the same thing.

Again, if the father wants to be a part of OC's life, then it is something that should be considered.

<small>[ September 17, 2003, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

I'm reading this and thinking there IS no one solution for every situation. Some families choose NC some choose to actually adopt and raise the OCs.

The only thing the OW can really "demand" is CS. I don't see how xOW can expect a former WS to provide emotional support to the OC when the WS couldn't even be there for their intact family!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Just the fact that they are a WS could mean in itself that they are emotionally in an unhealthy place and need to get back to a healthy place for their own family before they can even think about helping an OC adjust to the OC's difficult situation!

I have to agree that single xOPs need to just go on with their lives and leave the WS's family alone. In cases where the WS is married, it's WHOLE a different ball of wax. It's not black and white, you have to use the Policy of Joint Agreement in every case tho, that's pretty black and white as far as Marriage Building goes. And no, the POJA does not include xOPs. Sorry!

Something constructive that BS could do concerning the xOPs feelings, especially if you believe in God is to pray for them. Pray that they would have peace in their lives and their OCs would grow close to God.

I know that is a stretch but we are instructed to pray for our enemies so that we can be able to move on with our own lives.

Everybody matters to God, especially sinners. How can we even come to God unless we recognize that we need God's forgiveness in the first place?

That's about the only way I can see to help and change someone's heart so that they don't go out and destroy another family.

I don't think affairs are 50-50, tho. I have to agree with Dr.Harley that the environment for affairs have 3-way responsibility: the WS, the OP and the BS create the atmosphere for an affair. (Surviving An Affair)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by LynnG:
<strong>Well, I am so impressed, you work for an Attorney in California? LOL. As if that is impressive? Isn't that state all messed up with their liberal laws and now damm near broke? Yeah, the legal system in California is real impressive!!!!

You are the one with tunnel vision. The oc is so born and you and others like you expect XMM to throw open his home, and of course his wallet, kick his wife and their children aside, to welcome the offspring that was created with some wonton woman in an illicit affair. Hardly.

Why are you on MB. This board is for support of those in the marriage. What pearls of wisdom are you pontificating about, that helps them? You blame their husbands, call them cowards for ignoring your offspring, arguing with others. What is your point. I am here to tell my fellow BW to get the attorneys immediately. To DEMAND, yes DEMAND that tests be done, that their children be protected and that the wishes of the OW do not matter and should not matter to them at all. What is your point? Don't they have a right to know that the legal system has tons of loopholes that they can use LEGALLY to their advantage? That they have rights, and that the OW and the OC do not have any control over anything. That is what I am here for. Why are you here?</strong>[/QUOTE

****edited******by Justuss

Oppsss..I KNOW you didn't mean that so I took the liberty of removing your reply.

And to enter a reminder----

"If you are building or rebuilding your marriage or if you want to provide support to others in building or rebuilding their marriages, then you are welcome here."

Justuss

<small>[ September 17, 2003, 08:06 PM: Message edited by: Justuss ]</small>

Back to the issue of the OW having the final decision about what happens in terms of her pregnancy. Abortion, adoption, keeping child. When I became pregnant with a child with my ex-WS, we did make the decision together for me to have an abortion. We did not want to raise anymore children. We didn't feel that we were in very healthy conditions ourselves at the time. He did take me to the clinic for the abortion and stayed with me as long as he was allowed to. He was there for me right after the abortion to take me home and support me. I have had no great emotional trauma from the decision that we made nor has he. So yes, it did piss me off that the OW decided to have her child and keep him, and expect my ex-
WS to support her ( she had no place to live, held no job, was a 21 yr. old recovering alcoholic) and be there as a father for the OC. My ex-WS says he asked her to have an abortion and she said "No". She had already given one other child up for adoption when she was 18 and regretted that. To top it all off this OC was born with Down Syndrome, which could mean a lifetime of child support, not just 18 years.

Having said this, I understood my ex-WS's desire to be there for the birth of his OC because the OC was innocent and deserved to have his dad at his birth. I asked to meet the OC and said I would consider accepting him into my life if I could genuinely accept him and not feeled forced to. I met the OC. I have had visits at my home with him several times as my ex-WS and I have talked about reconciliation. I have come to adore this little guy with his big smile that lights up the room when he sees me. I have gone on a chat site for parents of children with Down Syndrome so I could better understand what we might be dealing with in the long haul. I have been concerned about how it might be to deal with the OW, as my stepdaughter has told me the OW is very opinionated about everything and thinks everyone should know her opinions. Yes, I wish this OC had never been born. Life would have been alot easier. But that's not how it is. I guess it really doesn't matter much anymore because when push came to shove my ex-WS won't leave the OW. He says it's because of his concern about the wellbeing of the baby. He says he doesn't have feelings for the OW. Even though they haven't married, I guess maybe I'm the OW now! Plan "B" is in place. What a mess for all concerned!!

<small>[ September 17, 2003, 10:30 PM: Message edited by: lilymarie ]</small>

Lilly, please don't take my post as a put down for anyone who has had an abortion or chose adoption. I was trying to prove a point. For me it's not an option I went through to much to have my twin girls almost 5 years ago. I honestly feel it is a women's choice to choose and it is something that a women should make that they can live with. My affair with mm was soooooooo wrong and this is the results of it. I'm am going to have full custody of my child and not have mm involved because he had no choice in what I chose, but I do feel strong about my issues. I am sorry you went through it and your xh must really love you. He stayed by your side through this. I must say though....he is there for his d? I'm sorry she has down syndrom. I don't know much about it, but have heard they can live pretty normal lives. I have read a bit more on it due to my age. I am in a position to take care of my kids and myself. I have a desent job (he has a better one, but mine is not bad) and I've worked hard to get where I've gotten even with obsticles in my way. I understand where the ow use to be in her life, but where is her life now? If she still has problems why can't your xh try and get custody of her and get back with you? There can be ways. I hope it does work out, and please don't be the ow. It really is not worth it. It's a hard road to ride and as you can see from the post between us w and ow it's not pretty and you never know where the h mind is really at. Good luck to you Lilly.

Certainly there are a million different circumstances here. ANd a milion differnt ways to handle them.

Bottom line (for me). When I chose to have my child I chose everything that came with him. The good the bad the ugly. In my case that meant accepting that his father was a "maybe" parent at best.

Initially his father said he'd co-parent then changed his mind. Whatever.

Fair or not since I CHOSE to have the child I accepted the all of the rights and responsibilities that came with that. His father opted out. And you know what, that's his loss not mine.

His father chose to focus on his other relationship (I didn't even know he had another relationship-but that's another story for another day).

I could spend my life wringing my hands and worrying over what that man chose or I could live a full and beautiful life. Guess what I chose. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

And you know what, we rarely think about him. I'll bet he wishes he could say the same.

Peace
ks

Chris - if it upsets his wife and his family, he should put their needs first. If he wants to see oc, and wife doesn't want any part of it, then SHE NEEDS AN ATTORNEY. She needs to protect her and her childrens best interest. The marriage would be in bigger trouble if he pushed contact.

As for ignoring his child, as long as CS is paid, legally he is taking responsibility.

Once again. This message is for wives to get going. Get attorneys immediately. Have everything stated and planned out legally and you will be ok. Everything.

hey ca may have liberal laws <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> (still better then some of the back woods judicial systems out there), we may be damn near broke (but then again so is the federal government) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> , we may have to darn many cars and pay too much for gas and electricity (when we can get it) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> BUT we sure do have the weather baby. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

without a doubt we have argueably the best weather in the world. tell me how many other areas in the country can have their family pose for a new years day picture and everyone is wearing shorts and t shirts. sunshine <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> and temps in the mid 70's. here in so ca you have the option of going snow skiing in the morning and laying on the beach in the afternoon.

and now we even have people leaving for employment so the traffic jambs are clearing up. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

OH,I have no doubt that CA is a lovely place to live. I just don't think that an employee of some law firm in CA should be saying what is legal or not, just cause she works at a law firm. For all we know she is the cleaning lady and it is quite obvious she does not know law.

A couple can file a legal separation, where H pays alimony, CS, mortgage, etc. That would be filed, legally. When OW slithers in to see what she can get, the well would be almost dry!! I know of one BW who gets all that. Her husband "rents" a room from the neighbors. They are reconciled and OC gets about 300 per month, as her husband had already been paying spousal maintenence, child support, mortgage and all utilities for marital home. Slick.

if it upsets his wife and his family, he should put their needs first.
Above his own to see his child if he choosesto?

If he wants to see oc, and wife doesn't want any part of it, then SHE NEEDS AN ATTORNEY. She needs to protect her and her childrens best interest.
I don't understand what this does. Is his wife going to get a restrainging order against him seeing her? Seeing his child?

The marriage would be in bigger trouble if he pushed contact
Bigger trouble than if she called a lawyer on him because he chose to see his child? That seems prety darn rough.

Lynn

I do wish I would have known some of this stuff when my H was being brought to court for cs. But he wouldn't listen to me about getting a lawyer. Hell, he never even responded to the complaint. So he ended up paying $280 a month ( not to bad) back child support from birth, plus all the medical cost of the pregnancy/birth and everything till court. Now his XOW plays games with him. She got married a yr later and asked H to signoff his rights so her H could adopt oc. She has done this to him countless of times. Even had him fill out some paperwork. Now she is trying to get money out of his grandmother from his grandfathers death. H still won't budge.

Had you a an attorney, you would have only been liable for 1/2 those costs, as the OW is responsible for that child too. You could still benefit from an attorney. She wants him to sign off parental rights? DON'T DO IT. Not unless you have an attorney, force the issue. If he signs off, then make sure that her husband agrees to support child and they can't come back at you later. GET AN ATTORNEY.

Hey at some point here, if the UH is thinking like a fool, doesn't want laywers involved, the BW needs to protect him too. Hire the laywer. Imagine if you had hired one, think of the $$ saved on the medical costs alone. That alone would have been worth it.

Not to mention, that if all is legal, and OW is calling family members, and you track all of this, she can get it for harrasment. How well do you know is grandmother? Can you talk to her? You can call your city/county DA office and they will get in touch with her and tell her next time, charges will be filed. But get this stuff on record. Her OC has no rights to any family inheritance. That brings up another topic. An attorney will avise you, that in your will, leave OC $1.00 with an explanation that the children from the marriage will inherit, etc. That way OW can't come back and fight a will if somehting should happen. No way is OC getting any property, $$$, or anything should he or we pass on. That is all earned by us, for OUR family. OW can't say you forgot OC.

Lynn, not the cleaning lady, I'm the bookkeeper for there business in Vegas and personal home in Vegas. I do hire all the employees for them and found a great cleaning lady. As someone on your side of this board mentioned....it's a "loophole". "loophole" and "legal" are two different words. Talk about imoral ow. What would you call stealing from a child.

Crazymum:
I must say I agree with most of what lynn is saying to you on your matter. That women should not be calling any of your family memeber. Are they close friends or something? It sounds like you guys are suffereing as it is with all your kids and all......If he wants nc with this child and he sees her doing everything he doing, why is he fighting getting an attorney? That is crazy. And yes Lynn is right again.....she is to pay half of all doctor bills from her pregnancy and for that child. Even if she was married to him and divoring it would be that way. If she wants your h to sign away his rights how can she expect to receive cs from him? That makes no sense. Is she all there?

Well,why don't you tell me about stealing from a child? You are the one briging an OC into the world without a father. Isn't that stealing from your own c?

I could care less about any oc. The children I am concerned about protecting, both emotionally and financially are the ones born to the marriage that the OW seems to care less about. I care that the marriage survives and that they do not get robbed by an OW.

So, if it is legal to file separation and get tons of CS, so be it. Other OW (maybe not you) seem to not like that idea. Why? Their marriage is none of your business. Once again, consequences. Not everything should go the way some ow wants it to just cause she had an oc. The wife and her kids have a right to fight for what Truly was meant to be theirs and is. Alls fair. You and UH should have thought better. But now that it is out, I'm here to let the BW know that not even their UH should be protected by utilizing a very good attorney to protect the children of the marriage. You need to realize, that those children deserve a voice and someone to fight for them. They are innocent and should not be denied anything for what their father did. The oc has no part in this, and no thought is given. It is pure and simple preservation and the needs of the children from the marriage. Just as OW do not think about how this will adversely affect those kids, the BW should not concern herself with the wellbeing of the OC.

A good attorney will see that cs is paid, and also set the OW on her heals should she ever even try to contact the family in any way. The OW that my H was involved with has been fined 3 times for calling our home. She is to call her attorney, and he will contact ours. Next time she calls, she will serve 48 hours in jail.

Alls fair.
Unless it is for the oc (or the ws for that matter), correct? Then nothing is fair for the oc. They should be denied asmnuch as can be and to the maximum extent possible.

The needs of the OC are not in any way, shape or form a problem of the wife. Her kids are her first and foremost priority. Once again, the OW gave no care or cocern for BW children, now that OW has OC she expects everyone to care about her child. Doesn't work like that. And before you get out your , "it takes two" yes we are aware of that. That is why the BW should get legal protection and go after all she can. Then if the marriage falls apart, her kids are taken care of FIRST. As they are her FIRST concern. The oc is not the problem of the BW.

GET IT? And if the actions of the BW should short change the OC, to bad. Her own kids are shortchanged every time a check is sent to oc. So I say the needs of the OC are not the problem of the BW and her children. Is that wrong?

Lynn

I understand what you are saying. Question, is this something that has happened to you? I'm just trying to understand the anger. Not all OW are the way you state. And in no way shape or form and I trying to justify the affair or what the WS/OW has done. I know that every situation is different.

Lynn it is not wrong for you to FEEL that way. NO. Is it fair NO. The uh now has an additional child. As it looks though an attorney is really best for both sides. I don't think both sides will ever agree on this one. I will say again to you it's NOT WRONG for you to FEEL that way. One thing we (you and I) have in common is our kids interests come first. That says a lot of who we are and what we want for our kids. Would you not agree? It's sad that you and ALL of us are in the situation we are in no matter how it happened. Not all ow are bad people. Not all bs are bytches. What makes us bad and bytches is protecting our kids. I'd fly to the ends of the earth to protect my twins. I made a MISTAKE. I'll be paying for that mistake the rest of my life. My child however is inocent and will NOT pay for the mistakes of xmm/mine doings. If his father has no contact with him he is better off having that. What I mean is why would I want someone there who is not able to be there for what ever reason. How I feel about that personaly is really not that important right now. Nor should it haunt my child either. I see how you feel the way you feel about contact or no contact....is it right? Maybe but then again maybe not. Years from now we may both see this in a whole different light. I've tried not to verbaly attack you through this thread and maybe it looks as if I did. I was trying for you to see it on both sides. ONLY. I've been on the other side of the wall. I was once a bw. I don't know why I did what I did and stayed in it for so long. It happened I can't make it go away. I can't turn back time. On the other hand I have no problem taking care of my child on my own. It's sad, but yeah, lots of people do it. I am not out to screw xmm over. I'm not even asking for my fair share that the law in NV requests....why because xmm has 2 kids they are in private school and are use to a certain lifestyle. His w is going to kill him over this and he will pay the rest of his life with her just living with her. (that is not intended for all bw). Through our entire a I never asked xmm for a dime. It was not about money then and it's not about it now....just my child. End of story. So why can't we just agree that we both feel very strongly about defending our kids?

So I say the needs of the OC are not the problem of the BW and her children.
Agreed. But the needs of the OC ARE (or may be) the concern of the husband/WS.

Is that wrong?
No, not really, unless one is simply doing it to screw the ow by messing with the oc.

I don't think anyone is saying you should have any concern for the ow or have the oc in your life. Like it or not (& I don't expect you to like it), the oc IS a half-sibling to YOUR children. If the ws chooses to not be a part of the OC's life, so be it. If he does choose to be a part of the OC's life, then it is something to be discussed.

A marriage is not picking and choosing what you want to share with your spouse. As long as you are married, you get to be a part of EVERTHING he brings to the marriage. And vice-versa.

Needs to move on: I agree, we all put our kids first. However, to many OW think it is horrible if a wife sues for CS so OC gets a much smaller amount. There are tons of ways to "screw" the oc, and I think they should all be looked into and pursued. No reason for my kids to suffer or lose out.

Chris:

The needs of oc are met with CS. How is a BW protecting her own children from ow/oc screwing anyone?

OC is not a sibling at all. A family is not just blood. Adoption is proof of that. The oc is not part of this family and never will be. And,if UH wants contact, that is all the more reason to have an barracuda attorney and get everything for your own kids.

As a BW with an OC, we chose to keep that child out of this home and our lives. I consider OC to be OW's problem. Don't want to hear anything, and we don't. Our attorneys are the only way we have contact. If she tries again, she is off to jail for 48 hours. She gets a check that is sufficient.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LynnG:
<strong>Needs to move on: I agree, we all put our kids first. However, to many OW think it is horrible if a wife sues for CS so OC gets a much smaller amount. There are tons of ways to "screw" the oc, and I think they should all be looked into and pursued. No reason for my kids to suffer or lose out.

check that is sufficient.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lynn, to put this to rest.....at least we agree on one thing. You must of really gotten screwed over by this ow in your life. That is the only reason I can see the anger you have and in as well as the things you have stated. Everyone does what they have to do and have to live with our decisions in life. Like I said I honestly can't agree with what you are saying about being pursued....but you know I'm in the position right now that I could screw my h over. Although I've been seperated for 18 months we are still legally married. I'm pregnant. By law he is responsible. He has to pay for xmm child by law. I have gone out of my way to protect h so he won't have to pay for xmm childs. But then again I'm not asking xmm to pay either until the dna test is done, and I'm paying for all expenses myself. I have chose to keep this baby and to make all the men happy I'm paying for these expenses. My h thinks I'm protecting xmm....I'm not.....I'm just not dealing with him.

The needs of oc are met with CS.
So that's the only needs you and your kids have of your husband? Money?

How is a BW protecting her own children from ow/oc screwing anyone?
They are not ONLY your children. They are also your husbands children.

What if the husband/ws has a need for contact with the OC?
You seem to forget one small fact. The OC is the child of your husband just as your children are his also. You don't have to like it (and I know you don't) but you do have to live with it.

OC is not a sibling at all. A family is not just blood.
So blood matters in no way at all? Then why do you need a lawyer against the ow?

The oc is not part of this family and never will be. And,if UH wants contact, that is all the more reason to have an barracuda attorney and get everything for your own kids.
Rather than tap dance around the issue as you have been, if your husband wants contact with OC, then you WILL divorce and get as much as possible from him, correct? And this is what you recommend for all in this situation?

As a BW with an OC, we chose to keep that child out of this home and our lives.
So it was a mutual decision between you and your husband, great, but this is not always the case.

Again, you may not like what has happened and you certainly don't have to like it, but you do have to deal with it.

I'm done.

<small>[ September 18, 2003, 02:48 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

It really sounds like someone needs alot of counseling to get through all this anger. Its a terrible situation to find yourself and your family in, but its done and now you need to learn to survive and live. If you have chosen no contact and its best for you and your husband, then I hope it works out. As for my situation, lets see I got pregnant at the young age of 45, gee just what i planned, oh yeah, did go for an abortion, was changing into gown about 20 other women waiting in gowns, and i broke down and knew I couldnt go through with it, om reaction "Im glad you didnt do it, you are so brave" Oh yeah did I tell you hes married and so am i, lets see I already have 7 kids (another note 2 were unplanned with my husband--oh my and I was on birth control now that must have been my fault) Oh I didnt want contact with om and his family, but my husband insisted on cs, so I had to do cs or otherwise husband said our marriage would not be. Ok, om wants contact, oh and you think lawyers are cheaper than paying the hospital bill, he has already forked over 5,000 plus and we are still not done. His idea to get a lawyer, afterthought he wishes he had just discussed everything with me---yeah would have been 5,000 cheaper. and yes I said we should talk with his wife included--no he will not involve her in his buisness. Oh we decided on visitations, pretty much normal of what most get. and no I do not deliver our child to him , he picks her up and returns her as per court order, and you know what my kids are not devastated and either are his, so it doesnt destroy everyones lives. especially if you explain it in a civil manner. You dont have to go out of your way to destroy children, they can work through almost anything with enough love. My daughter is loved by two families, i would have rather raised her in mine alone. but she will never have questions unanswered, because she will know, just as all her brothers and sisters know--all 10 of them. i am not saying we have had alot to work through and still do, but we are doing it. I am not trying to make lite of everything but the heavy awful anger I hear is not going to help anyone. and this is a child of both sides and needs to be looked upon as one of Gods children, not a child out of wedlock (hello, we are not living in the 50's)how many of you started a marriage out with a pregnancy before you said i do, give me a break, grow up, your anger should never be directed toward a child. and yes this child should have just as much as the other children in the family--because she is family no matter how much denial you are in and i can only see that in the long run you will be hurting yourself the most, because your children will grow up and they will find out and they will wonder how cruel and bitter people can be to deny a child love and comfort and family. sorry if i am rambling on, and sorry if you dont want to hear for a ow. oh well
full house

oh i forgot--im also known as a ws--does that make a difference?

full house, I have to ask as this part bothers me the most with me......how was it giving birth in your 40's? I am scared to death!!!!!!! I'm glad your h and xmm and you and his w have made this work. That is great for all of you and your child. My kids are very young only 4 and don't understand it, but one day they will ask me. When I told them I was pregnant they mentioned how there daddy can take them all to 7-11 (what is it with all dads taking the kids to 7-11?) and I just breifly said "oh well, um....honey your daddy is not this baby's daddy. They accepted it for now. They are more concerned about how the baby got inside me than the other. I'm just glad it is working so well for everyone.

I am a BS and I cannot believe some of the things I have read on this thread. FH summed it up -- some people are in deep denial.

This world has changed dramatically during my lifetime and not for the better. I believe many of the problems we have as individuals and as a nation are a direct result of the lack of ACCOUNTABILITY that has become the popular notion of the day. When someone screws up, they are encouraged to either blame someone else or simply walk away and not own up to their mistake.

My husband having an OC is not something I dreamed about as a young girl when thinking about my future. But my H made a choice to have an A (without consulting me), he knew everytime he had sex, even using bc (she was on the pill), that there was a chance a pregnancy would occur. Well, it did and he now has another child.

Every BS at this point has a clear and difficult decision to make. You either decide that you can live with the horrible situation this man you love has placed you in, or YOU move on to greener pastures. Staying together means that you must find a way to forgive what happened and DEAL with the consequences or you will be destined for a long and unhappy life.

The OC is a living breathing child! Needtomoveon is absolutely right -- stealing from an innocent child has been advocated on this thread. I could even understand the couple that would like to keep things "separate but equal" and would choose to have a separate life insurance policy for the OC. But to say the OC is not going to get any property, any money, absolutely nothing if their own father dies -- that is an awful lot of bitterness and anger. Misdirected anger, I might add.

If anyone feels shortchanged when the child support check is issued -- it is NOT the OC who is shortchanging you. It is our own spouse -- who fathered the child -- that is shortchanging you.

If the affair is truly over, then there comes a point when you have to understand that the WS's ability to be concerned about and love the OC has nothing to do with the ex-OW. And believe me, if you think that prohibiting contact will keep your WS faithful -- think again. If your WS does not deal with the issues that caused the cheating, he or she will be doing it again, even with a different person.

A question was asked about marriagebuilding and why some posters were posting if they were not trying to build a marriage. If your WS is given a choice -- stop seeing your OC forever OR I have a "barracuda lawyer" who will take you to the cleaners and make sure you don't have two dimes left to rub together -- how can that be considered "marriagebuilding"?

It seems to me that some of the attitudes expressed in this thread may be the reason why some of the WS's were wayward. They certainly don't seem like attitudes of individuals who have accepted the hand life has dealt them and learned to live with it.

So go ahead -- light into me now. I don't usually post so aggressively but I was truly disturbed by what I read and was trying to put some other perspective on it. One thing I have learned through my ordeal as a BS is that bitterness and hatred eat you alive. If you live with anger it will destroy you from the inside.

I cannot change what my H did. My H was weak and selfish at the time he had his A. He is not perfect -- none of us are -- and I love him despite his faults. But, neither he nor I could live the rest of our lives reviewing his "mistake" and playing the victim. It was not healthy for either of us.

I chose not to be a victim. I chose to open my heart to the possibilities and look "outside the box". And, I have peace and joy in my life beyond my expectations. I am truly sorry for those who are stuck in the cycle of pain. I pray for your daily because the ability to change is there -- it's inside of you if you would listen.

May we all find peace in our lives our own way,
love,
heavenly

Thumbs up is for you heavenly.

Thanks for putting MB concepts in this sad thread.

Once again...what a lady!!

Take good care,
~aut

<small>[ September 19, 2003, 04:58 PM: Message edited by: autumnday ]</small>

Heavenly

Your post was well said.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If the affair is truly over, then there comes a point when you have to understand that the WS's ability to be concerned about and love the OC has nothing to do with the ex-OW. And believe me, if you think that prohibiting contact will keep your WS faithful -- think again. If your WS does not deal with the issues that caused the cheating, he or she will be doing it again, even with a different person.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As I stated before I was the BS long before I became the WS. I know what my His capable of and the lies he tells the OW. With the A that produced his OC, he told me she abused him, he in turn told her I was abusing him. He told me many times that it was over between them only to find him trying to get her back. When that didn't work, he found another to fill her place. And this was before the child was even born. Since this affair 5yrs ago, I know of at least 3 more. So yes, just because you tell your H no contact with the OW, or he tells you, doesn't mean it is't happening or he won't find another.

I hope things work out for you. You are a strong woman and are wise in your way of handling the siutation.

heavenly,,,,,,,,
------------------------------------------------
And believe me, if you think that prohibiting contact will keep your WS faithful -- think again. If your WS does not deal with the issues that caused the cheating, he or she will be doing it again, even with a different person.

It seems to me that some of the attitudes expressed in this thread may be the reason why some of the WS's were wayward. They certainly don't seem like attitudes of individuals who have accepted the hand life has dealt them and learned to live with it.
-----------------------------------------------

here,here!!!!!

needtomoveon,
the pregnancy was an easy one, all of mine were, i always loved being pregnant, what a miracle, even though this pregnancy was during the worst time in my life, i was afraid the stress would hurt the baby, but everything went well. Hopefully you have someone to support you through this time, i really didnt, it was ignored by most, i have no pictures like i did during the pregnancy of my other children, and the movies taken at the birth, (taken by pops God bless him)were not the same as the others, it was hurtful for pops as you can understand so he took the bare minimum, not showing much, which was dissapointing to me, but understandable. I was worried I would experience it all on my own, no joy to share with anyone, i felt i couldnt show my true feelings of the love i had for this little one, so there were many tears as she grew. so that is the downfall and i hope noone has to feel this. we are doing well and love our little grace so much. I had to stay home from work today cause she woke with a fever and vomiting. the thrills of mommy life. it is hard at times cause i am 47 with a one year old, i dont feel that old and have been complimented for looking alot younger, not that that has anything to do with anything, but it peps me up, love compliments to make this woman keep a going. but it is tiring sometimes, not like when you were in your 20's. but i too have young ones at home, a little older than yours and i dont think they quite understand the situation at times, it can be confusing, but we talk about it when ever questions come up--ages8,11,13,15,and the older ones know and had to go through alot of anger, but i feel they still love me and grace (21,22,28)
good luck on your pregnancy, when are you due, enjoy this blessing and it is a blessing no matter how it came about.

heavenlybody-
beautifully said

Very well said.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Full house:
Thank you so much!!!!!! I read your post and can't stop crying cause I'm there right now. I'm sure alot has to do with harmones.....I'm so full of them right now. I've cried so much since I've been pregnant. My twins I really only cried over the "life channel movie" or hallmark or something like that. I just cry and cry. I can't stop it. I know how you feel about pictures and all. I've had 3 ultra sounds done and up until last week I just threw them in a book. I don't think I've even tried to bond yet. Most of my friends are great, but it's basically just me. My kids are young so they are just so excited....I'm sure if they were much older they would be where your older ones were at. I must say that you and pops (I just put that together in your post that you were the fh he talks about) have come along way. Thank you so much for your words of support.

Heavenly:
Thank you too. I've told you this before......Not just because of your uh affair, but the other things you've gone through with your kids.......you are a women to look up too. You have overcome some horindis (can't spell) obisticles in your life. You attitude is just so wonderful and inspiring. Thank you so much.

I originally posted on here sounding like I was blaming OW for everything. I think heavenly summed it up saying that anger eats away at you. I know my actions lead to this and I am more upset that I did this to my wife. I will say that I was seperated and my marriage had problems before this one. However I screwed it up so bad that it seems unfixable. She has decided to go her own way and divorce me.

I just want to say that there is no right answer to these situations. It is all based on the situation itself. I wish everyone luck in ther respective lives.

Is that the voice of reason I hear????

God, thank you for Heavenly!

fofatty:
I am so sorry about you and your wife. It's never to late and you never know she may change her mind. I also know how easy it is to blame...I think we all do it. It does sound like you have opened your mind and see both sides of the coin though. Thank you for being open about how you feel.

needtomoveon,

I truly know that I did this and no one else did. It is an emotional roller coaster now for me. At this point control of my life seems out of my hands. I view this whole thing as the end of the world. I worked so hard for what I had. I miss my wife and family. I do know that down the road this will seem more like a speed bump than the giant mountain that I see it as now. I have to remember that my marriage had problems that led to our separation and my current situation only compounded it. I now have seen why I do things and need to make sure I don't repeat my mistakes. I also don't believe my wife will change her mind. I recieved papers from her lawyer yesterday. She is dead set on divorcing me. It hurts so bad.

Dear aut, pops, full house, Chris and needtomoveon,

Thank you for your kind words and agreement.

Crazymum:
Your ex sounds like the classic case of a person who has a deep-seated problem and simply refuses to accept responsibility and deal with it. My H had serious problems with flirtation and the hardest part was getting him to understand that he had this need and why he was so insecure. It was a long road and he's still climbing.

Fullhouse:
I have admired your H many times through his posts which are full of wisdom and compassion. I am so glad that you and he are raising and loving grace together. I could not agree with you more about a child being a miracle regardless of its beginning.

I posted a story only last week about how badly I neglected my daughter for the first few weeks of her life. She was born after I found out about the OC, who was also a girl. I was so depressed because I imagined all the things I was going through being shared by my H with another woman! Your words especially hit home because when my H came to bring us home from the hospital, he set up the video camera in the front hallway to tape us coming in the door. That video shows him struggling to bring the baby in with a suitcase all by himself because I sat in the car crying. When I saw how sad that video looked, I vowed to not waste another moment of my daughter's precious life on regrets or sadness.

Ohbratti:
You got it backwards! Heavenly thanks God!
Sending a hug for big boy Jonas {{{Jonas}}}

Fofatty:
I am so sorry about your wife. I agree with needtomoveon -- it may not be too late.

I can tell you from my own experience that when I first learned of the A and OC, I wanted to hear my H tell me over and over again how sorry he was for what happened. I felt heartbroken, undesirable, and mostly, insecure. Another woman had walked into my life and simply taken the most important person from me. I felt so vulnerable that she would walk back in and do the same thing again. Or, worse that someone else would take him away.

Your confidence in yourself and the life you have been living gets badly shaken. And, since actions speak louder than words, you are hearing your H say he's sorry, but thinking "if he loved me HOW could he do that to me?" I would feel angry yet all the time just wanted him to wrap his arms around me and reassure me.

The emotional upheaval is so strong, it takes months just to find your center again. Have you talked to her the same way that you write in your threads? When you tell her that she is your life and the most important person in your world, how does she react?

I know it must be hard for you to see everything you love slipping away, but don't give up hope. Stay close. Show her by your new actions that your love for her comes above everything else. Try to make new memories for her that will replace the thoughts she is having now. Take every advantage to spend time with her and your daughter as a family.

Don't give up hope. If you truly love her, keep trying. I will be sending prayers your way for a happy ending.

love,
heavenly

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Your ex sounds like the classic case of a person who has a deep-seated problem and simply refuses to accept responsibility and deal with it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Heavenly,

The sad part, I'm still married to him.

Oops!

I am soooo sorry Crazymum. I hope I did not offend you. For some reason, I had it in my mind that your H was "ex-". I think it is because you are brutally honest about his shortcomings <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> It must get so difficult for you sometimes. You must be so frustrated.

Keep the faith. Miracles do happen and perhaps one day he will wake up and realize that he should make some adjustments.

I certainly hope so for your sake and that of your children.

love,
heavenly

Its OK Heavenly. There are days I wonder why I'm sticking it out. I've put up with so much over theyears and still am. He is an alcholic and doesn't give a damn about his family. As I type this he is out with his friends drinking. Haven't seen him since he left for work at 10 pm thursday night. Its a normal friday thing. He never calls or anything.

Sometimes I pray that he will wake up and realize what he is missing, his kids growing up before his eyes, then other days I hope he gets into an accident and never returns. Sad.

Crazymum:
My girlfriend use to wish something very simular. I could imagine how hard this is for you with all your kids. Almost like having NO ONE AT ALL???? But maybe someoen coming in and screwing up the schedule you've created uh? How does he feel about this whole thing? Ya know the xmm and the kids? We know how he feels about his oc. Just wondering.

Ok, I am sitting here reading all of your advice, comments and beliefs. They all have helped me in one way or another. I thank you all for that but my problem is this.... H had and affair for over a year that I found out about 2 months ago. I feel the only reason I found out about it is because she became pregnant. I chose to forgive but not forget. OW said she would get an abortion however when he told her that it was over between them and he was staying with me, she now refuses to do it. I feel she is only using this child as a hold over H. She has made many threats to me and my kids and H also but yet he says he feels bad for her. I find out she is on meds for some sort of mental instabilities and not sure if she still is pregnant. My question is this, do H and I sit and wait to hear from lawyer/courts as to whether he will be paying CS or should he try to call her and find out? Keep in mind, he begged me to forgive him and he promised me he would not have anything to do with her ever again. But yet, I am tired of living in limbo. I made the decision that if he chooses to have anything to do with this child, except CS, then I will not stay. I cannot handle that. H and I have two children of our own. This whole situation isnt fair to anyone but I also feel that OW said she was going to abort it until she found out H is staying with me. That, to me, is doing it for spite. How awful to use a child that way!

NTMO,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I could imagine how hard this is for you with all your kids. Almost like having NO ONE AT ALL????
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do feel like a single mother. H does nothing to help out around the couch. He goes out everyday after work and parties. Comes home and goes to sleep. Only the youngest 2 actually see him during the week. Sometimes only Alex,2. Every friday he stays out all day without contacting us to see if everything is ok. The only reason the house payment gets made, its taken directly out of his check. He blows everything else. Right now he uses my affair as an excuse for doing what he does, but he was doing this since we got together. When I did have a job, I would get calls from the neighbors cause the kids were crying. Turns out he was passed out and they were on there own. 10 mths, 4 & 6 at the time. I did quit my job due to this. I feel like I'm stuck between a rock and a hard spot. A no win situation. I would leave, but then I look at it this way- The kids don't see him much and when they do, I'm here ans stickup for them and watch there backs, if I leave him he gets visitation and the kids go aone with him and only god knows what will happen then.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> How does he feel about this whole thing? Ya know the xmm and the kids? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hates it. He has gotten in a fight with XMM before. Doesn't want him to see the kids. I would agree if our marriage was better and he was a better influnce on the kids, but he's not. His actions speak so much louder than his words.

I AM SORRY THAT NEEDTOM0VEON HASN'T AND I AM SURE THE W AND LK ARE SORRY ALSO. YOU ARE JUST HUMAN AND SO ARE WE. SO I GUESS AS A BS I FEEL A LITTLE DIFFERENT ABOUT IT THAN YOU DO. TELL ME HOW WOULD YOU FEEL ABOUT YOU IF YOU WERE THE W? THE OC IS NOT TO BLAME BUT IF THEIR MOM CAN'T BACK OFF AND LET THE W BE STEPMOM IT'S REALLY ON YOU ISN'T IT. I MEAN IF THE W IS WILLING TO STEP IN AND BE A POSITIVE ROLL MODEL FOR THE OC, WHOM NEITHER ONE OF YOU HAVE HAD THE SENSE TO BE THEN WHERE IS THE PROBLEM? MY HUSBAND HAS AN OC AND IT EATS THE OW UP THAT I WANT SOMETHING TO DO WITH HIM. BUT YOU KNOW WHAT I DO NOT CARE BECAUSE I HAVE DONE NOTHING WRONG AND I HAVE NOTHING TO HIDE. LET'S DO IT RIGHT LET'S SHOW ALL OUR CHILDREN HOW WHEN PEOPLE MAKE MISTAKES YOU LOVE THEM ANYWAY AND MARRIGE IS NOT A PLACE THAT ANYONE CAN WALK IN AND TAKE OVER! COME ON BETRAYED WE HAVE TO REMEMBER WE ARE THE ONES THAT THEY MARRIED AND THE ONES IN MOST CASES THEY WANT TO BE WITH! LET HER HAVE HER SAY. DOES IT REALLY MATTER. ONE MORE IMMORAL PERSON ON EARTH THAT DOESN'T HAVE AN INKLING OF CARE FOR ANOTHER PERSON. WE ARE THE SPOUSES AND WE HAVE THE LK SO WHATS THE POINT SHES JUST ANGRY BECAUSE SHE ISN'T GETTING HER WAY. YOU KNOW I THOUGHT THE SELFISHNESS WAS SUPPOSED TO END WITH THE AFFAIR.
I AM SURE YOUR A GOOD MOM, BUT WHAT HAS THAT GOT TO DO WITH THE MM FAMILY? I CARE ABOUT THE OC AND I GET A LITTLE JELOUS. I ALSO UNDERSTAND THIS AND TRY TO STEP ASIDE, RECENTER, AND REFOCUS. I STILL HAVE NOT BEEN ALLOWED TO SEE OC WE HAVE NO LEGAL RIGHT AND YOU KNOW THATS OK TOO.

Bran, if I got what your post said....your asking me how I would feel if I was the bs? I WAS a bs. More than once. Never with an oc. I know that the bs is hurt. I know that it takes time. I'm not saying that the bs or xmm HAS to have contact. That's NOT what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that not all OW are out to screw the xmm. I'm not. I know what I did was wrong. I'm not however going to go have an abortion or adopt my child out just because it does not fit in with xmm plans. He helped make that child, and I FOR ONE did not ever plan on having kids after my girls. I was done. Accidents do happen and poor xmm should not have to pay for his share of that accident? xmm was helping with that accident. Is it fair to the bs? NOPE!!!! It sure is not. But the bs has choisen to stay in that marriage and make it work. She has to come to terms with it just as the ow has to come to terms with it. It works both ways. I feel just as strongly as Lynn feels (but on different sides of the track) about taking away from that oc just to protect her kids, but you know what that is fine becasue she and YOU are not in my shoes just as I am not in your shoes. If you are so sure that your uh is remorsefull then why is it so hard to believe that the ow can't be either? Because she had sex with your husband? Well he had sex with the ow. They are both in it together!!!!! NO there is no way to look at it any differently. I realized that some ow are mean but so are some bs uh hey people in general. I know I have not approaced my xmm even about telling his w. I don't care....that is his cross to bear. I've faced all the people I need to face and deal with this situation. I feel good about my decisions and how I've handled this whole mess. I've PAID for it just in the few months it happened (the pregnancy) and know exactly what is what. Xmm....he is walking around like nothing happened. He is hiding the fact that he even had an affair. He had an affair with me for over 1 year. It was never a "bad thing" until I got pregnant. It was because he was on the edge of getting caught. He still has enough trust in me to know that I won't get into his business even under these exterme circumstances so why am so concerned? After hearing Lynn I'm scared to death that my xmm and his w will try and cheat my child out of support. She is venditvie enough. She already is mean and this will send her over the edge and xmm is so scared of her he'll go along with it to save his own a$$. Because of my feelings of his w and xmm do I think they are all like that NO. But coming to this site as made me realize how I also need to protect my child (as w is protecting hers) in case someone tries to screw my child over.
So I'm not sure if this is what you were talking about, but I tried to answer this the best I could.

I had no intention of getting involved with this post but I have to respond to this...

///But the bs has choisen to stay in that marriage and make it work. ///

That makes as much sense as a BS saying to an ow you chose to have this baby now live with it.
And I mean live with it with no support from mm.
It makes NO sense does it ?
Neither does that comment above.

Who cares if OW are offended here? I lurk here sometimes, and I thought this was a place to make BS feel better, and to help them heal. What good is it, if BS has to tippy-toe so as not to anger OW! I agree with the title of this thread. OW feelings do not matter! A BS should never have to apologize for venting feelings on this board!!! If the OW do not like it, maybe they shouldn't be here.

OW are INTERLOPERS and knew they were getting sloppy seconds when they embarked on the affair. Why should BS be concerned about what the OC gets??? If BS sees fit to protect her assets for the children of the marriage - why the heck not?!

Some of the OW here are real pieces of work. Some (not all) do not seem interested in marriage building, just pressing buttons. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

GB
I couldn't have said it better!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jtigger:
<strong>I had no intention of getting involved with this post but I have to respond to this...

///But the bs has choisen to stay in that marriage and make it work. ///

That makes as much sense as a BS saying to an ow you chose to have this baby now live with it.
And I mean live with it with no support from mm.
It makes NO sense does it ?
Neither does that comment above.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">jtigger: If you read the post for what it's meant for and the rest of the post you would understand it. The ow has her fair share to deal with too. It's to bad an innocent child has to pay for the mistakes of two people and that of the anger built around it's birth and existence. It's to bad that the mm's kids have to deal with this too and not understand what is going on in there family. Do you think that all ow are NOT remorsfull? Do you think that all OW want your money and then still not be happy? Do you think that all OW want your uh after all he's done as well? I'll even admit that some of the stories are very sad here about the ow and court and everything....that does not mean it's every ow. Not all uh are telling the truth to both ow and wife. Do you really know all the circumstances? Can you postively say all your actions are granted or just going off what your uh said? There is "action" then "reaction".

The bottom line of this messages is that a BW has rights. If you do not want contact, you don't have to have contact. The OW has no right to control what you and your husband decide. If you do not want contact, the OW can't force this on you. If your UH decided he wants contact, and you are against it, that is not wrong.

BW should not be forced to feel this way or that way. Your feelings are your own.

Yes we have oc. We CHOSE not to have contact and did it all through attorneys. PERIOD.

I am angry that so many BW here feel they have to do things that they don't want. You don't.

Empower yourselves.

I am one who chose NC. My Husband chose NC. Our children want NC. We have attorneys to handle the details. By reading here, some act as if this is wrong, how dare we, funny how suddenly I am this bitter angry woman? For what? Setting by boundaries? For fighting for my children? For letting you know you have a voice and can have things set up anyway you want? If a BW and UH want contact, I said you could have it set up that works for you. That the OW does not have a choice or a voice in how you deal or feel. Reality and the fact that you have rights does not make me bitter.

What makes me angry is some OW with an OC all upset that a couple would choose what is best for them and their children, and not care what the OW thinks. The OW feelings matter not one iota to me. Nor should they to you. Do what is best for you. As for oc, sorry, he is not my problem.

And the OW can say "well oc is 1/2 sibling" or "your UH has another child" all they want. That is their way of trying to control. They are using "family" terms to try and guilt and manipulate situations. My H had a decision to make. He chose NC. The OW does not like it. That is to bad for her. Her feelings don't matter.

As for this whole thread. The whole point is that what a couple decides to do, is none of the concern of the OW. Some chose contact, some don't. Either way, it is up to the couple to what is best for them. The couple should not take the OW feelings into account as they don't matter. That is the whole point.