And I'll repeat it once again. God loves all the children. I never stated anything about disregarding the BC. I said "ALL".

IMNY,
You are correct when you say that God loves ALL/[B] children....He does. But OW's and BS's love their OWN children. You cannot honestly tell me that you love your MM's children like your own child...because if that was the case, you would have waited until Daddy divorced before moving in on another's situation (and yes, I don't know your situation, but we've flogged this dead horse many times on this board in regards to who is to blame).

FACT: "SOME"(not all) married men lie to their wives and their ow's--we've heard and read and seen it all here on this board, "MM wanted a baby with me" etc. etc. etc."Then He lied to me and his wife" etc. etc. etc."the condom broke" "I thought I couldn't have kids" etc. etc. there are many different situations and circumstances for how the little blessed OC bundle arrives...

FACT: some OC's were created in one night stands, black-book affairs and other type affairs listed in the Miscellaneous category...as we've stated before, "no one size fits all" category.These aren't exactly the best situations as there were no relationship between the OP and WS...how do you expect to co-parent with a stranger? In our case, our ex-OW is really wild and wacky...we have differing views on how children should be raised. I guess it would be fair to take it to court all the time and argue about everything and upset two households just so that OC can have some Daddy time, in a household of mixed faiths and views and lifestyles? PUH-LEEZE!

Bottom line: Every person has their own level of what is and what isn't abandonment. Your subjective criteria isn't necessarily what mine or catnip's or anybody else's criteria for abandonment. We live in a country where everyone is entitled to their own personal beliefs, ideas and the right to express their thoughts, opinions and live freely in doing so.

As stated before, this is a marriage building site, and what you have done according to the Harley's principles is painted the MM's that have chosen No Contact with a paintbrush called a disrespectful judgment.

Hon, you have the right to feel and believe and state whatever you wish to, this is the good old U.S.A. and if you are from another country, great, this is the good ole Internet.

Your MM has contact with your child, that's absolutely wonderful. I'm really honestly glad for you and your child and your MM's wife and children that you are all able to work this out. It is truly wonderful and I commend you for it.

God loves ALL children...but many BW's and OW's don't love each other's children and with good reason. If God had ordained open marriages, then it wouldn't be a problem. If God had ordained polygamy, it wouldn't be a problem. But if I understand the covenant of marriage, God ordained it to be ONE man and ONE woman. Should one of the couple chose the route of infidelity, it does break the promises, but the covenant still stands. God first, then Marriage, then children of the marriage and then after that, whatever.
That is how it works.
It makes no provisions for OC's and OP's. Mercifully there is forgiveness and people move on and heal, but it takes TIME which is what most have already written and mentioned.

[B]No one in this forum or world can convince me that these men who do this won't go to their grave with a cloud hanging over their heads.

well, I hate to break the news to you, my husband is one who is more happier now that the truth is out and he is freed from our "Alex Forrest" (Ex-ow...borrowed the name from Fatal Attraction as she was the ex-ow from hell) He considers himself a sperm donor (and there are sperm banks all over the US for couples to have to help them create...are you saying those that donate their sperm abandoned their children too?) I know of a lesbian couple,friends of ours, that had a buddy of ours donate sperm and they are raising the child themselves and the child will not know who the donor is...is that child abandonment?

We could go on and on for days and days, like I said, flogging this dead horse, flogging the birth control dead horse and flogging the child support horse.......

Bottom line again------

Affairs are caused by two selfish people.
Affairs hurt the innocent OC, the innocent BC's and the innocent BS's.
Affairs disrupt the norms and flow of the marriage and if a child is involved, the norms and flow of childhood too. It was never supposed to happen, but it did, now all parties have to suffer some form of consequences from two individuals selfish and thoughtless acts.

My husband is forgiven by God and I believe God understands our reasonings for the route we chose. I know we can look at ourselves in the mirror and have no qualms about anything. Please don't paint everyone with the same brush and I won't paint you as someone who got pregnant on purpose to get money, the man, etc....(I'm not saying you did, but I am not going to paint all OW's with the same brush either...that was just to make a point).

There, that's my two cents which isn't really worth that much, but I'm getting tired of this debate....can we please post some holiday recipes or something?

Sheesh, enough already....
Hugs and prayers and peace to all....
Twiisty

Oh and I'mnot you? I'm glad you aren't me. As I'm sure you're glad you aren't me.....did that confuse anyone? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
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Twisty,

If you look back at my posts, I stated many times that what you, catnip, and others choose for what's best for your family is right for you.

I don't know where you say I'm going against Dr. Harley's principle because I have replied to someother posters and encouraged them to rebuild their marriage.

Your post like so many other's went back and focused on the affiar, and the OW. I'm sure your husband is gland the his xOW is out of his life. But I won't believe that he will ever feel %100 at peace for NC with his child. Again, this is my OPINION. I'm not saying that this is how your husband feels.

And once again my point is that in God's eyes, they are ALL children, and he doesn't love the ones from a marriage any more or less. People who judge people(me, you, and the next person) that get so hung up on labels.

When it comes down to it, it's irrelavent wether I love his kids as my own or his childrens mother loves my child, because HE loves them all the same.

To OW who are so concerned with the issue of "abandonment," and feel strongly that a child must have two parents present:

When you are choosing a lover, make sure he is available to co-parent, should a pregnancy occur. If he isn't able or willing to be a parent to your potential child, don't have sex with him.

Quite simple, really.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ImNotyou:
<strong>Simply choosing NC from the beginning and never having carved a relationship with the child, yet providing significant financial support, is not considered abandonment even by family court standards."

So do you feel that the mother who gives birth to a baby and dumps him/her in the trash is not abandonment?

=^^= Ugh...what a horrible thing to bring up...there is absolutely NO comparison here...of course the bio=Mom is abandoning the life she has nurtured within herself for the preceeding nine months by doing something so unspeakable...but what is worse is that it is often far more than abandonement...it's murder. You're grasping at straws here. It's definitely NOT the same thing in the least.

I feel you create your own terms of what abandonment means to you and that's your porogative.

=^^= Me and the family courts, I guess. And it is YOUR perrogative to wail and bleed for the Other Children. But, I simply ask you (and other OW) to look within themselves. If they are so enormously tortured by the fact that their OC will not have bio-Dad in their life, why would they bring them into this cruel world without one already standing by, without prior commitments? Besides, you STILL have not answered what else you expect the bio-Dad (who is otherwised engaged in a marriage) and his wife, to do besides financial support?

And I'll repeat it once again. God loves all the children. I never stated anything about disregarding the BC. I said "ALL".

=^^= Yeah. So? We all know that. There's no argument there; no one here said anything about disregarding the OC here either...so what's your point?

It just makes his father a better person than a man who decides not to have a relationship with his children.

=^^= Not better than a NC bio-dad, just more accessible perhaps, for many reasons. Perhaps he lives near by and not in another state, perhaps his marriage has healed to the point where his wife is generous enough to go along with it, perhaps he doesn't have a lot of other obligations...there are tons of variables.

So, you must get an idea of what I think of men who abandone their children.

=^^= I understand what you are saying but I don't get your argument...what is it you are demanding or expecting? I guess I don't understand what you want exactly...we are all in agreement the ALL kids are wonderful, so why the heartburn? No one said any differently. I think you are preaching to the choir.

Abondonment doesn't only count if the kids are from marriege.

=^^= It certainly depends on a lot of outside circumstances like if the child is the product of a relatively long term live in arrangement where the bio-dad has been involved with child for some time and then the bio-dad disappears, or through another agreed upon commitment...there are a whole host of reasons, but I don't think having a child with someone else other than your wife constitutes "abandonment" if the OC is supported financially because the Dad is otherwise engaged...he has a family. He has prior commitments and obligations and the women who get pregnant from these guys usually are well aware that they are married from the beginning. The OC's that are product of deception where the OW did NOT know the guy was married is completely innocent as much as the OC, BW and BC and certainly deserves far more consideration than the former and that's just my opinion. But that is just what I think and how I feel about it. It really doesn't have any bearing with your situation or anyone elses.

No one in this forum or world can convince me that these men who do this won't go to their grave with a cloud hanging over their heads.

=^^= Nobody's trying to convince you of anything except to point out some logical realities. Guys don't bond with a kid usually until it is born. They don't spend nine months connected to a infant in utereo, feeling it kick and roll around and do the sommersaults. Day to day, they are usually not there to feed and care for and watch child change and grow. They are busy trying to keep all the dogs at bay and provide. Guys can compartmentalize and remove themselves from the emotionalism of the situation...even in affairs. They might get sucked into the romanticism and sex of an A for ego gratification but that's not really where their heart is in most cases from what the stats say. It is just how they are built. Once they fall in love with a kid, they are usually there for the long haul, but unless that happens, it might not effect them all that much. And no one is trying to convince you of anything. You have your opinions, I have mine, they have theirs and your TOW buddies have theirs and MB women have their perspective. Guys are good and loving and sensitive people and I know there are many who have gone to their grave with huge regrets for the child but my husband says his biggest regret was having an A in the first place and causing me so much needless pain. And that's his huge regret that supercedes his regret for the OC, which comes in somewhere after some other regrets pertaining to our own kids. Maybe he is just heartless...or maybe he has his priorities in order. I guess it just depends on the guy.

I am glad your XMM is actively involved with your child on a regular basis. If that is the case, why are you so upset? It is just life, Kid, and if you don't suck it up, it will eat you alive.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Catnip =^^=

This thread has grown since I last posted. I can see after reading why everyone involved in these type of circumstances feels strongly. It seems it's a matter of mothers (all mothers BW and OW) wanting what is best for their child/ren. Aren't we all programmed that way? I know I would do about anything for my children to protect them from harm and pain.

The debate about blame is too silly to even type. The blame is solely on the OW and MM who created the mess. The innocents are all the kids involved and the BW. That said, I think that blame gets all twisted up with what is moral and right for the father to do regarding his child out of wedlock. To me this has nothing to do with the adults feelings and who is to blame. It only has to do with what is morally right for a father to do.

Not sure who brought up the sperm donor stuff. This is another whole arena. It has nothing to do with this subject. Men that donate sperm know that they can't even be identified and that if a child is created, it will have been created for two people who want a child to raise as their own. That child will not suffer abandonment issues UNLIKE a father who gets his lover pregnant and then abandons that child.

Catnip,
Your points are well thought out and I agree with much of what you say. One point that I don't agree on is your definition of abandonment of a child. Also, responsibility of a father to his child.

Abandonment is more than monetary. Abandonment is physical and emotional, more so even than monetary. There are fathers out there that do not work, so therefore do not give money to support their children, but who do not abandon their children. Many women do not work (SAHM) but do not abandon their children. A father or mother who does not give love, time and energy toward their child on a consistent basis is guilty of abandonment. They are guilty of being irresponsible to a baby that they helped bring into this world.

Someone brought up the subject of a father missing a game to be with his OC. This reminded me of when I had my second child. Every parent who has more than one child knows that with every additional child, time division becomes necessary. When that additional child is in the same "nuclear family", it also take adjustments by all concerned. There isn't a child who's been the baby, then replaced, who doesn't struggle with it. But do mother's get all upset about it? Of course not. There isn't an older child who has a baby brother or sister who doesn't resent him/her a little bit. But do the parents struggle with this? Not really. It is accepted as normal. I guess what I'm saying is that that isn't the issue here. That isn't really the harmful part to children of the original mother and family.

The harmful part to the children from the BW is the "how" this happened. Not the sharing of dad with another. Sharing of a parent can be worked out so as no one suffers. But the explaination of how this child came to be is at the crutch of the matter. Children who find out what their father did have to be hurt by it. I would imagine it would produce insecurities in them to some extent that would need to be worked through. How do you mother's even begin to explain it? I would be without words. The hurt of being an BW was great. Have no idea how I would begin to personally deal with explaining their dad having a child by another woman while married to me to my children.

On the other hand, how does a father, who claims to be a moral, loving, responsible man who loves his children explain to his children that he abandoned another child??? There is no explaination because there is no "right" of it. A child that knows that their father has already abandoned one child is sure to wonder, and rightly so, if/when that same father was going to abandon them. Seems to me the best thing for the children of the BW that know about the OC is to have a father who didn't abandon one of his own. That way dad would have done wrong, but not abandonment.

In the perfect world this situtation wouldn't occur. In the world we live in it does. My hat goes off to those strong, rare BW's who have worked this tough situtation out so as not to do anymore harm than necessary to all children involved and so that none was abandoned by their father. I have great respect for you ladies!!


ktbunch, not sure if you were referencing me when you said that no one ever considers the original children, but that isn't true if you were. While trying to understand this situation, I definitely thought of the original children's needs. I hardly think that sharing a father is harmful to a child. Like I said, the harmful part is the why they have a sibling that isn't from a woman that their father is or was married to. I'm sorry I also don't see a child as being betrayed when they have to share their father with another sibling.

Catnip,
I think that your point of the W and H having to rebuild their marriage first for the benefit of all the children, is a valid one. In any family, the relationship that has to come first is the one between the spouses, otherwise the children suffer. I can understand a slow progression of healing the marital relationship and then slowing bringing the OC into it.

Hope everyone had a wonderful Thanksgiving! Enjoy the remainder of the holiday and count all of your blessings!!

TheFemineSide,

Once again, well put. I look at it this way...Which is more forgivable, a man that had an affair that produced an other child, or a man that abondones his child(any child).

There's this guy that I know of that always has his two sons every where he goes. People comment on what a great father he is. What they don't know is that he has 4 other kids that they don't see because he never sees them. I'm sure they wouldn't be making the same comments.

I do also think it takes a EXTREMELY strong woman to make a marriage work and accept you husbands child.

Catnip,
Who said anything about murder <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> .

Your opinions don't equal facts and vise versa.

I know men who have had a bigger connection emotionally with their unborn child than the mother.

It's funny how you keep saying I'm fighting for the OW/OC when I clearly stated that I was abondone and I'm a child of marriage.

I keep hearing the same theme that your H's aren't abondoning their children because they pay CS. But I hear so many complaints about paying CS. I'm sure if they didn't have to pay they wouldn't just like some xH's try to weasal out of support of the kids from marriage.

INy, my marriage has healed where I would accept contact with OC's. My H is the one that wants NC.

Wouldn't it be interesting if, there were a law that stated, any mother that had a child that was not her H's, would not collect CS of any kind, including welfare. Would the pregnancy rate go down?

Also, you cannot force a person to be a parent. It has to come from the heart. Some people should never be a parent. My H is among them. You can call it abandonment or anything you want. You still would not change his mind.

So, what is your point?

ember

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ImNotyou:
<strong>
Catnip,
Who said anything about murder <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> .

=^^= Well, you did. YOU said something about "what about the mother who dumps her kid in the trash"...and my response was that was more than abandonment...that was murder...(since most of those kids are found dead).

Your opinions don't equal facts and vise versa.

=^^= Of course they do...you just prefer to ignore the logic which is fine.

I know men who have had a bigger connection emotionally with their unborn child than the mother.

=^^= I've seen lots of Dads excited about the impending birth of their child but it was usually with their own wife within a happy marriage.

It's funny how you keep saying I'm fighting for the OW/OC when I clearly stated that I was abondone and I'm a child of marriage.

=^^= I haven't said that nor do I "keep" saying that you are fighting for the OW/OC...I need a quote from you here so I know what you are referring to.

I keep hearing the same theme that your H's aren't abondoning their children because they pay CS. But I hear so many complaints about paying CS.

=^^= What's wrong with complaining about it? Do we have to like it too? YOU would be complaining too if you were already struggling when some opportunist invades your life, coming out of nowhere, uninvited, and ruins your life and then you are suddenly forced to pay for this "privilege" too! It is the ultimate insult to injury. It's like sending a monthly check to your rapist for violating you but since they need "therapy" or a roof over their head at the half way house, you have to pay for it. It's about that logical. If this was happening to you or any other woman on TOW, they would be squawking too..I betcha a bazillion dollars. We are entitled to complain about it. Are you all insisting we "like" paying this out too? Isn't it enough for you that most of you get huge income shares (I know there are exceptions, but I ain't one of them) that equal or exceed a mortgage payment? Don't you think that creates some heartburn? You find out your husband has betrayed you, you find out the OW knew from the beginning he was married, and didn't care, you find out she did not have enough sense to come in out of the rain and protect her own body, and didn't care, you find out she's going to keep a baby that never should have been born to your husband and then you have to pay for it too! Think about it! You are so obtuse to think we should also be pleased about this arrangement and not complain about the money. THAT defies logic, INY. It doesn't make sense.
Money does buy happiness in the sense of buying peace of mind and security....when you have to pay an OW for an OC, it disrupts your security and peace of mind...forever. You struggle to make ends meet, you know you will be forced to work way past retirement and your marriage has this part of it that is always tainted and spoiled and you find you have this demarcation point for all the times BEFORE the A, and everything that has happened SINCE the A. You think maybe you should leave and then you think, "why should I...how can I"? You have a huge complicated mess on your shoulders and you are trying to figure out how this one innocuous person, a complete and total stranger, who really doesn't mean [censored] to anyone you know, including your husband, has the power to destroy your life so completely...just because she wants what she wanted when she wanted it and didn't care about your BC (but, you gotta care about hers!!!!) or how this would effect them or how this would effect a clueless wife or any of the consequences...yet moans, wails, demands, cries and complains about their OC is being abandoned...despite the fact they get pretty enormous CS in a lot of cases. Are we expected to step aside...are many to be sacrificed for ONE?
We ALL only have just ONE life and that life has been ruined and a stranger ruined it...forever. Think about that sentence for a moment without wailing "what about "me"...what about "my" OC???". You got what you were bargaining for...you thought you would be the exception to the rule...the 5% that actually walks into the sunset with the MM...the lottery. But, the other 95% of you lost and lost big. And now you want someone to pay for it and come here scolding us for complaining (we're entitled...it doesn't mean we haven't "accepted" our situation or adjusted to it and glad to do it...we can be glad to do it for OC and still complain about it being a hardhship because that is the reality) making demands that we grin and bear it. Amazing.

Oh, and I like how all the OW on TOW pretend they never read here...cracks me up. They ALL read here regularly (and we know it) while their paranoia is constantly scrutinizing their own kind and chasing their own off their board. And they call us hostile. But, look what we have to deal with when you do come over here...you don't hear a thing we say, you don't listen with an open mind, and you ignore all logic.

I'm sure if they didn't have to pay they wouldn't just like some xH's try to weasal out of support of the kids from marriage.

=^^= This sentence structure is so poor, I don't understand exactly what you are saying. But I'll take a wild guess and respond anyway just for fun. "I" was divorced and never received one dime of support. My husband had custody of his two children and I raised them as my own and we did not get one dime of support. However, we pay $1500 per month CS which is 65% of my husband's take home pay to OW for OC and she lives at home with Mom and Dad and is pushing 40...no expenses. The kid must have ermine sleepers...but I don't think so. OW just has a shiny new Lexus. CS is supposed to be 17%. Seventeen percent is fair and reasonable. Even though I/we didn't get any CS from our former spouses, we both feel obliged to pay 17% of my husband's salary to Ow for OC...not 65%. We want OC to be financially supported and do not begrudge her anything. We want her to be happy, secure and have all her needs met and I hope her mother is providing a stable environment for her as best she can as a single mother. I was a single mother without CS and I know what it's like, but we managed just fine without anything but my salary.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by TheFeminineSide:
<strong> To me this has nothing to do with the adults feelings and who is to blame. It only has to do with what is morally right for a father to do.

=^^= Thank you for your response. I agree this is all about what is morally right. However, I don't think it serves anyone if a man leaves his wife and his children.

Not sure who brought up the sperm donor stuff. it will have been created for two people who want a child to raise as their own.

=^^= Stats say that more often than not it is for a SINGLE parent

That child will not suffer abandonment issues UNLIKE a father who gets his lover pregnant and then abandons that child.

=^^= I guess I disagree because I see it as the same thing basically. The only difference is that the OC child is getting CS. If the OW's attitude is that of being rejected and abandoned, then it will rub off on the kid and the kid will feel that way too. It would be nice if the OW could just take her lumps like BW's have to and just deal with it and stop complaining (as BW's complain about having to fork out $) But, that is just my opinion. Do you have a suggestion of what you think this should play out to everyone's benefit? I just see someone ending up unhappy about the outcome and that is pretty much the way life is.

One point that I don't agree on is your definition of abandonment of a child. Also, responsibility of a father to his child.

=^^= OK...you say tomato, I say to-mah-to. It just turns out to be two (or three) schools of thought and it will aways be that way. This debate is kind of futile and I concede that you and others see things differently and that's OK with me. I completely respect your position and would never try to change your mind, however, I will speak my mind whether or not anyone is listening. But, most of all because you put it in such a gracious and respectful way. I am pretty tunnel visioned on this for myself so I don't see me changing my mind either...which is OK.

There are fathers out there that do not work, so therefore do not give money to support their children, but who do not abandon their children.

=^^= Lots and lots and lots of different situtions. I still maintain that there has to have been a bonding already created in order for it to be construed as abandonemnt, but that is just my POV.

Someone brought up the subject of a father missing a game to be with his OC. This reminded me of when I had my second child. Every parent who has more than one child knows that with every additional child, time division becomes necessary.

=^^= True. However, you did not have to share your Dad with another child born of a humiliating situation that you might have been resentful of or jealous of...or feel threatened or insecure. The OC does not live in the same house with the Bio-dad and BW and BS's.

When that additional child is in the same "nuclear family", it also take adjustments by all concerned.

=^^= The OW and OC are not part of the nuclear family of the BW and BC or even bio-dad

There isn't a child who's been the baby, then replaced, who doesn't struggle with it. But do mother's get all upset about it? Of course not.

=^^= The ONLY time I have ever seen this remotely comparable is when the OC is from the WW and lives with her and her BH and their children (like Mom of Five and Pops) together...or a situation like Stacia's. With those people, it is entirely different. Theya re live together on a day to day basis and form deepm and meaningful bonds of love and protection for one another. They work it out and find ways to cope because it is all right there in front of them all the time. It isn't the same in a bio-dad family with BW and BC's.

But the explaination of how this child came to be is at the crutch of the matter. Children who find out what their father did have to be hurt by it. I would imagine it would produce insecurities in them to some extent that would need to be worked through.

=^^= And because the BW is on high alert, she is compelled to protect her children from as much pain, humiliation and fear as possible and this is one of the primary reasons for NC.

how I would begin to personally deal with explaining their dad having a child by another woman while married to me to my children.

=^^= Many refuse to even do it or find the taks so daunting and difficult, they choose NC to spare their children from soemthing so distasteful.

On the other hand, how does a father, who claims to be a moral, loving, responsible man who loves his children explain to his children that he abandoned another child???

=^^= In our case, we haven't said a word because my husband has not abandoned OC since he has never seen her, binded with her, met her but pays enormous CS. We also haven't said anything since we feel it is no one's business but our own. Since we are several states away and OW wants NC, we have no need to devastate our kids.

Seems to me the best thing for the children of the BW that know about the OC is to have a father who didn't abandon one of his own. That way dad would have done wrong, but not abandonment.

=^^= I guess it depends entirely on the specific issues of each couples particular set of circumstances.

My hat goes off to those strong, rare BW's who have worked this tough situtation out so as not to do anymore harm than necessary to all children involved and so that none was abandoned by their father. I have great respect for you ladies!!

=^^= There are a lot of them on MB. There is Stacia, Mary Janes, cdcollins, Zebrababy, Gem, and several otehrs. Unfortunately, the OW in most of those cases made contact impossible and it had to be terminated, but in the ones who are still diligently working to keep the OC a part of their family, they are truly valiant. And the ones who tried and failed (through no fault of their own) are valiant as well for even making the effort.

I'm sorry I also don't see a child as being betrayed when they have to share their father with another sibling.

=^^= I know this is to ktbunch and I probably shouldn't butt in but I don't think she meant sharing dad with another sib is the heartburn here...I think she meant that a child of the marriage is a betrayed child when they are suddenly forced to share dad with an OC not born to their own Mom but their dad's illicit affair....which is different than a step sib because they were born of dad's previous marriage and is socially accepted.

Hope everyone had a wonderful Thanksgiving! Enjoy the remainder of the holiday and count all of your blessings!!

=^^= We had a blast. We went out this year and then to a movie and had a wonderful day. The ONLY bad thing about going out is there are no leftovers. We came home and talked a long time about all the things we are grateful for and how far we have come. this time of year is very difficult for me as a rule (anniversary of A) but this eyar I got through all of it without any angst at all. Well, maybe a slight tinge, but nothing remarkable. Last year was less awful than the year before... like all the preceding years. I seem to only get all fired up here on these boards...especially after I've been reading "over there"...hahaha.

I hope your Thanksgiving was blessed.
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ember:
<strong> INy, my marriage has healed where I would accept contact with OC's. My H is the one that wants NC.

Wouldn't it be interesting if, there were a law that stated, any mother that had a child that was not her H's, would not collect CS of any kind, including welfare. Would the pregnancy rate go down?

Also, you cannot force a person to be a parent. It has to come from the heart. Some people should never be a parent. My H is among them. You can call it abandonment or anything you want. You still would not change his mind.

So, what is your point?

ember </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ember, I totally agree with about the comment about you can't be a parent if your heart is not in it. I don't feel the rate would go down though of ow getting pregnant. It would just still be as it was in years past......VERY BIG SECERTS. Not all women get pregnant on purpose, but I do know some do.

The OC is NOT A SIBLING. What on earth do these OW think? For crying out loud. They expect the whole world to revolve around them and their child, and to hell with the rest of the people involved. What a bunch a self centered baloney.


I would like to ask the OW here, just what do you expect? My husband sees the OC as the biggest mistake of his life. He does not lose sleep over not raising the boy.

NO contact is the best way to go for the nuclear family. If this bugs the OW, well to damm bad. She should have thought of that before she broght a child into the world that didn't have a father available. The OC is not going to miss a father s/he never knew. It is yet another manipulative ploy of OW across the land to cry "..my poor child... ..." YADA YADA YADA. Well these same women think absolutely nothing of the feelings for the children of the marriage. They are heartless women who do not see the pain these relationships cause the BC. But they don't care.

As for sharing a sibling, get real here. A child born to the marriage where there already is a baby, is a sibling. The first born sees the excitement, gets jelous, nervous of the new baby. When new baby is born, of course they are jelous. That is why every family knows that it is important to spend lots of time with older children. As time goes by, siblings fall in love with each other. There are times when one child has a soccer game and daddy (or mommy) can't come. But, if a father was to miss his BC game to go spend time with a child born of humiliation, and disgrace, that would be robbing the BC. The OC is raised by a "enemy" of the marriage. No BC should have to suffer the pain of dad being with OC if they want their dad with them. He owes them first and foremost.

As for no contact, the OW have to learn that what is best for their child may not be what the family wants. If it is hurtfull and harmfull tot he BC and BW, No Contact is best. Now if this is painfull to the OW/OC, well they have to take their share of the pain. It should not all fall on the shoulders of the BW/BC to adjust their lives and morals and thinking to accomodate people who could care less about the family in the first place.

Catnip,

YOU said something about murder NOT ME, and now youR comparing child support to rape. I'm lost for words as to what goes through your mind. For as long as I've been lurking here, I've seen you use metaphors in your responses that are illogical and try to put word in a posters mouth if you don't agree.

I didn't get a chance to read your whole post. I just notice, that once again your focus is not on the child.

Maybe later or tomorrow when I have nothing else to do I'll read the whole thing.

Catnip does a great job on her messages. Her views are those of many. I can see where an OW would not like it. But isn't the OW mantra "the marriage is none of my business???" Well, it is none of your business. Just as the OC is none of the BW business. Just as the decision of the couple to no contact is not OW business.

Catnip. You do a great job, keep it up.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Originally posted by ImNotyou:
Catnip,
I hate to see cut and paste but i don't want to misquote you.

You said...
"When I think of abandonment, I think of a child who has bonded with someone and then suddenly never sees them again and the child is pining away for that person who used to be in their life. There has to be a relationship already established before NC can be construed as "abandonment". Simply choosing NC from the beginning and never having carved a relationship with the child, yet providing significant financial support, is not considered abandonment even by family court standards."

So do you feel that the mother who gives birth to a baby and dumps him/her in the trash is not abandonment?

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WHAT are you comparing?

1. A man who choses NC but pays CS ....

to

2. A woman who dumps an infant in a trash bin....

~~~~~~~~

THESE are really not comparable situations. One is a criminal act, and the other is legal in the courts.

For some reason, this pseudo-comparison really tee'd me off!

If a mother gives birth to a baby and cannot care for him/her ... and she takes that baby to the authorities, and turns the baby over so the child can be cared for and loved .... THAT is NOT abandonment. That is relinquishing parental rights, and doing so in a responsible way so that the child still has a chance of having a good life.

I have 2 children who were relinquished by their mother and father(s) .... how DARE YOU compare their situation to putting a baby into a dumpster.

RE-think your logic, it is faulty.

Pep

<small>[ November 29, 2003, 04:44 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ImNotyou:
<strong> Catnip,

YOU said something about murder NOT ME, and now youR comparing child support to rape.

=^^= I'm not going to beat this horse over and over with you since you are not taking it in and can't grasp what I was trying to say. I really don't care.

I'm lost for words as to what goes through your mind. For as long as I've been lurking here, I've seen you use metaphors in your responses that are illogical and try to put word in a posters mouth if you don't agree.

=^^= Quite the contrary...I simply voice my point of view and I always respect other people's point of view. I nhever try to change anyone's mind. Just because I am vehement about my point does not mean you or anyone else has to go along with it...not in the least. Most of my metaphors are logical to the majority of thoughtful people who know these analogies are just that...analogies. I may be a lot of things, I don't deny it, but I am nothing if not logical. I might not bat 100 but I am damn close.

I didn't get a chance to read your whole post. I just notice, that once again your focus is not on the child.

=^^= And why the hell should it be??? It ain't MY kid.

Maybe later or tomorrow when I have nothing else to do I'll read the whole thing.

=^^= Really...please don't. You'll just get upset and misinterpret everything.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by catnip:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ImNotyou:
<strong> Catnip,

YOU said something about murder NOT ME, and now youR comparing child support to rape.

=^^= I'm not going to beat this horse over and over with you since you are not taking it in and can't grasp what I was trying to say. I really don't care. Any time one is violated and forced into something they have no say in is a form of rape...in this case, emotional rape. And that's just my opinion and my analogy.

I'm lost for words as to what goes through your mind. For as long as I've been lurking here, I've seen you use metaphors in your responses that are illogical and try to put word in a posters mouth if you don't agree.

=^^= Quite the contrary...I simply voice my point of view and I always respect other people's point of view. I nhever try to change anyone's mind. Just because I am vehement about my point does not mean you or anyone else has to go along with it...not in the least. Most of my metaphors are logical to the majority of thoughtful people who know these analogies are just that...analogies. I may be a lot of things, I don't deny it, but I am nothing if not logical. I might not bat 100 but I am damn close.

I didn't get a chance to read your whole post. I just notice, that once again your focus is not on the child.

=^^= And why the hell should it be??? It ain't MY kid.

Maybe later or tomorrow when I have nothing else to do I'll read the whole thing.

=^^= Really...please don't. You'll just get upset and misinterpret everything.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WHAT are you comparing?

1. A man who choses NC but pays CS ....

to

2. A woman who dumps an infant in a trash bin....

~~~~~~~~

THESE are really not comparable situations. One is a criminal act, and the other is legal in the courts.

For some reason, this pseudo-comparison really tee'd me off!

If a mother gives birth to a baby and cannot care for him/her ... and she takes that baby to the authorities, and turns the baby over so the child can be cared for and loved .... THAT is NOT abandonment. That is relinquishing parental rights, and doing so in a responsible way so that the child still has a chance of having a good life.

RE-think your logic, it is faulty.

Pepperband...I agree with you...I was not the one who compared a MM's decision to NC to a mother dumping her child in the trash. Just so you know.

Catnip =^^=

Pep </strong>[/QUOTE]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ImNotyou:
<strong> your focus is not on the child. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Um...this is MARRIAGE BUILDERS...where the marriage comes first.

OW don't understand such concepts as the marriage coming first, or the needs of their children coming first. If a father is so important to them, why don't they put their children up for adoption so they can be raised in an in-tact, two parent home? Oh, that's right, I forgot, that would require a selfLESS act.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
As for sharing a sibling, get real here. A child born to the marriage where there already is a baby, is a sibling. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So this is to say that my sister born from my mother, one night stand, ins't considered a real sibling to me?? Or my sister from my father isn't one either??

I agree with most of what you say, but this isn't one of them. The OC from my H is considered a brother to our children. Just my opinion.

<small>[ November 29, 2003, 08:41 PM: Message edited by: Crazymum ]</small>