Gem...I TOTALLY understand your anger. Once trust has been broken you expect %100 honesty at ALL times, for EVERYTHING. You probably asked your H 100 times if he was SURE he had told you everything and the truth and he probably swore up and down that he had. So now even something "little" is a big deal because it was ANOTHER deceit to add to the list of them...............BUT...I totally agree w/ the others that if you have come so far then let's try to put this into perspective.

That is some good advice that I personally appreciate because I sometimes go through the same type of things w/ my H. The tiniest hint of deceit, dishonesty or lie will set me off. I feel my H has to be on his toes all the time, if he is even going to be 10 min. late or something he has to call, he no longer has the luxury of being able to "just lose track of time", every minute has to be accounted for....just as every word said about the A needs to be substantiated.

So I can totally relate to you being so upset and feeling like your H STILL does not respect you enough to be honest. IF you can't trust the "little" things, how can you trust the "big" things? I understand BUT...really, they have given some really good advice. Tell your H how much that hurt you and how important honesty is to you and how you need it to feel safe and secure but you appreciate that he told you now. You know you love him and that is why it still hurts, hope is not lost.

It's not the end, it may be a few steps back but you are NOT @ the beginning any more, you are on the road and you both just got lost for a moment. You can find your way back again and this time you don't have to start over, you can pick up where you left off. Don't let HER come between you AGAIN, she stole enough of your life, theres no need for her to keep doing it now!

Take care and thanks for sharing.

kt,

I read your post with interest. It is apparent that this is a subject that affects you greatly. While I don't want to upset you, I do respectfully disagree with some of what you said. Keep in mind when reading my post that I am not an OW or a W with a H who has an OC. I am giving you a viewpoint that I believe the vast majority of people who are not involved in this type of issue have on this subject.

"Men are legally forced to "take responsibility" for children, OC or BC, whoever they are....why aren't OW legally responsilble for the pain and suffering of BS and BC, what about therapy or counseling? Why don't they pay for that?"

I don't see the connection you are attempting to make here. For one, the OC gets child support from his father. That is no different for any child born of any circumstances be it, divorce, affair, or never married. The court sees it the father's responsibility to help with the costs of raising the child. Asking the court to make a person who your husband slept with pay for you to go to therapy is much different. Wouldn't the court see him as responsible too? At any rate, I don't see the connection. It seems you might be talking about a lawsuit against the OW. Perhaps that is possible...I'm not sure.


"We can all give our opinions but you can't say that sperm donors are WRONG and OC "deserve" anything. "

Well, pardon me, but yes we can. I personally believe that fathering a child and abandoning that child is wrong. Just as I believe that a man who would abandon his children from a marriage is wrong. I see the two no differently. The man is the father in both cases and is RESPONSIBLE in my opinion for not only the money, but his time and love to that child to help him/her grow up to be the best person they can be. I fully acknowledge that there are those like you who do not feel this way, and I don't try to take away your right to your feelings and thoughts.

Believe me, there are many that disagree with your perception of what a father is responsible for. That is fact and it will never change. He (men in this position) will be judged by all who know regarding his actions, or lack of them. That is just the way life is. Such a man will be labeled and called a lot of negative names because he brought a child into this world and then wasn't man enough to do the right thing. Just as an OW who has a child in this situation will be labeled and held accountable. How many of these type of men would walk away and not pay a dime if not made to by the courts? Because of this, I don't see such men as responsible men.

Like I said, this is just my humble opinion from an outsider looking in.

<small>[ December 03, 2003, 12:38 PM: Message edited by: TheFeminineSide ]</small>

Hello All,

I was the starter of this topic and it seemed to grow tremendously. The initial reason behind the question was to go seek the OW board to get a better understanding of their feelings; how they felt about the OW/OC predicament they are in. Well, I have visited the OW board numerous times since I was given the website address. I was not offended by any means of what I read. Everyone had different opinions of what they are going through or how they handle things. I really wanted to see if they were hurting inside as much as the BS. I realize that everyone’s story is different and everyone hurts somehow or another on both sides especially the children of the marriage and the OC.

I don’t post as much as I would like to since I don’t have a computer at home. I try to get in while I’m on break or lunch at work. I want to give you an update on what’s going on with my h and me.

Well, it’s been a little over 5months since my d-day, I have since filed for divorce on Saturday 11/22 and it was not to save our finances from OW either. My h stopped all contact with OW since he found out she was pregnant. He assured me that he does not want any contact with OW/OC at all. He had been truthful to his word. The thing is that wasn’t enough for me. He has not tried to get counseling for himself or our marriage. I’m the only one going, he has contact a lawyer and didn’t fall through with it, he’s changing his attitude towards me again, he doesn’t talk to me about a plan for OW/OC, he just is not doing anything to repair this marriage.

So, being the strong person that I am I deserve much better than an h who doesn’t care enough to try and fix our marriage. I don’t think I gave up to quickly on him either; it’s been a struggle for me to come up with this decision but I did. I did a lot of soul searching and thought of how unhappy I’ve really been with him the past few years. I did a pros & con list and let me tell you the only thing on the Pros side was sex! Is that all my h’s worth? Forget about it, not enough to keep happy… I don’t want to go back to a bad marriage and the to top it off with an OW/OC now, HELL NO!!! I’m crazy but not that crazy. I do have morals and standards, I don’t need the added stress with his Bull****!!! He created it let him have it… If he decided to go with OW by all means let her have him, they may be good for each other, who know? Not my problem anymore.
He can also keep blaming me for his A all he wants but I know better and I’m the better person in this, not only did I loose the looser (LTL) but I gained my self respect for me and my kids. I’ve started cleaning house; let’s just say he no longer has anything that belongs to him in my home anymore. My focus is now on my two boys 15yrs & 3 yrs old. My home is peaceful, comfortable without my h there. Almost feels like the monkey has been lifted off my shoulder. I don’t cry anymore, I don’t think about what he has done to our marriage I just don’t care anymore. I don’t want this to wear me down. I’m still a young lady. My goal is to have time for the boys and myself and if God feels there’s someone out there for me I’ll wait as long as I have to. Right now I’m OK by myself, my heart is telling me to move on b/c no man is worth all the pain and drama and I feel pretty darn good about my decision. The best one I’ve made in a long time.

I’ll always be grateful for those of you who have been here on this board helping each other with the great advice given. I’ve seen both sides and it’s amazing what one stupid mistake can make on a marriage. Oh by the way, my h is not very happy that I’ve filed for a divorce, he said he doesn’t understand why I did it????????????????
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by TheFeminineSide:
<strong> I do respectfully disagree with some of what you said. Keep in mind when reading my post that I am not an OW or a W with a H who has an OC.

=^^= Then you can't possibly understand the entire scope, the indiviual situations that dictate different approaches or a Newcomer's painful perspective.

why aren't OW legally responsilble for the pain and suffering of BS and BC

I don't see the connection you are attempting to make here.

=^^= That's because you do not have to walk in those shoes but Newbies often are desirerous of their pound of flesh, retribution...they want to be compensated for what was stolen from them...their marital exclusivity, their right to be their husband's children's ONLY mother, their ONE life altered forever by a complete stranger, the violation and invasiveness of a third party having sex with their spouse...it gets very territorial in the beginning. A year and a half past D-Day, I flew to Dallas (where the conception occurred) to meet with an attorney to file charges against the OW for a form of alienation of affection but the time ran out and I didn't have the $1500 I needed to launch the dismal lawsuit. I knew I wouldn't win, but I didn't care...I wanted desperately to whack her with court papers akin to the blizzard of court papers that were coming to my house simply because she calculated a pregnancy intentionally and completely detroyed my life...for a time. There is an enormous pull for "payback" in the beginning...just so you know. You couldn't possibly understand or even see the connection.

For one, the OC gets child support from his father. That is no different for any child born of any circumstances be it, divorce, affair, or never married. At any rate, I don't see the connection.

=^^= If you fail to see the connections here, it is simply because you have not "been there" and would have no way of knowing, understanding or comprehending...and that's not your fault. Expecting you to understand is like expecting a bird to fly with one wing...

"We can all give our opinions but you can't say that sperm donors are WRONG and OC "deserve" anything. "

Well, pardon me, but yes we can. I personally believe that fathering a child and abandoning that child is wrong.

=^^= I believe an OC is not "abandoned" (by legal standards) if he or she is receiving financial support. Emotional support is the responsiblity of the mother in these OW/OC situations.
And this is a tired old issue that we visit and revisit and beat senselessly over and over and over again. We are ALL going to disagree on these points and so we should all just accept that and go to our corners because no one is going to change anyone else' mind.

Such a man will be labeled and called a lot of negative names because he brought a child into this world and then wasn't man enough to do the right thing.

=^^= The joke is on the man....he was only out for fun and games and to stroke his ego...he wasn't looking to be daddy. In this day and age of birth control shouted from the mountains into every pre-teen's classroom, what man would expect that any woman would be without protection today? He didn't "bring a child into this world"...the one person who has all the power did! The woman!
The woman has complete power over the situation from beginning to end....she determines initially if there will be sex or not. If she says "no", then there will be no sex unless she is forced through rape, but that's another story and not applicable here. She is responsible for protecting here body from being impregnated... the "good time Cheating Charlie" is not going to be responsible when he is only thinking of getting his weiner schnitzled. Women are clear headed about sex even if we pant...we don't get all glazed over and goofy like they do about sex or lose all sense of reality like they do. We know how to not get pregnant....and it is up to us to make sure we don't if we don't want to.
It was certainly never the intent of the guy to get someone pregnant...it was probably the LAST thing he was thinking...and that statement is preposterous in its implication alone. The woman gets to decide alone without any inference from the man whether or not she will continue the pregnancy, and then she alone will decide as to whether or not she will keep the child...without any interference from the man. For the woman, it's a complete win of calling all the shots....but wait!!! THAT'S not enough!!! She must have complete say-so as to the level of contact and emotional involvement from the reluctant, otherwise-engaged MM and then have the option to complain bitterly if the man chooses (his one of only two choices) to stay with his BW and BC. And then she also has the power to manipulate and punish him and his wife and chidlren with unreasonable demands and irrational and inconsistent rules about visitation...a lot of power plays at work. When the man exercises his second option and chooses NO CONTACT, it sends the OW over the edge and then the saga of the "abandoned OC" is loudly vocalized even though he pays significant CS.

There are exceptions to this very biased generalization of mine and only presented to illustrate the majority of overall experiences we have seen here. But that being said, it is not to diminish the wonderful and reasonable FOW's that are considerate, respectful and generous or unknowingly had a relationship with a man who was married (then the onus is on MM alone for deceiving OW into thinking he was available) and excellent examples of these FOW are people like MOF & Ohbratti, but I laid out these generalities for your consideration to take a moment to consider the variables to help you understand why NC is not abandonment and look at this from the beginning. Whatever you or I think of any of this are just two or three or a dozen POV.


Like I said, this is just my humble opinion from an outsider looking in. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Devistated Chris:
<strong> I did a lot of soul searching and thought of how unhappy I’ve really been with him the past few years. I did a pros & con list and let me tell you the only thing on the Pros side was sex!

=^^= What a smart thing to do! A Pro/Con list is something I think eveyone should do...very telling and a real eye opener. Good for you.

He can also keep blaming me for his A all he wants but I know better and I’m the better person in this, not only did I loose the looser (LTL) but I gained my self respect for me and my kids. I’ve started cleaning house; let’s just say he no longer has anything that belongs to him in my home anymore. My focus is now on my two boys 15yrs & 3 yrs old. My home is peaceful, comfortable without my h there. Almost feels like the monkey has been lifted off my shoulder. I don’t cry anymore, I don’t think about what he has done to our marriage I just don’t care anymore.

=^^= What a huge sigh of relief, DC...we are going to have to rename you "Not So Devastated Chris"

Right now I’m OK by myself, my heart is telling me to move on b/c no man is worth all the pain and drama and I feel pretty darn good about my decision. The best one I’ve made in a long time.

=^^= I am so happy you feel this way and I pray this feeling of being in control of your own life will continue.

Oh by the way, my h is not very happy that I’ve filed for a divorce, he said he doesn’t understand why I did it????????????????
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

=^^= He understands even if he is playing stupid. If his "Con" list is in a deficit as you say it is, then you can be sure that some day he will realize that he alone is responsible for his losses.

Good luck to you and God bless you and your boys. Please keep us informed of your progress because there are times when even on MB a marriage isn't worth saving and we rejoice for a BW who has found her freedom from the pain and "devastation".

Love

Catnip =^^=
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Chris,
Sending you hugs dear to comfort you. While I don't think anyone should jump into divorce, I do believe that sometimes it is best. Only you know what is best for you. I wish you strength and guidance from the Lord.

I can understand why you would want to divorce this man. From the little you've posted he doesn't sound like someone I would recommend any of my friends even date. I am divorced and have been dating for some time now. I choose who I date carefully. I'd never date a man that has done what your H has done. How could anyone trust him? He not only lied and cheated on you, but he fathered a child that now he is walking away from! His own blood. Not husband material at all! I pray that he does not abandon the children he has with you, but considering his past behavior, I wouldn't bet on it and neither should you. Of course, there is nothing you can do to control that. That is totally up to him. My wishes and prayers are with you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Catnip,
I see you responded to what I wrote to someone. While I wholeheartedly agree that I can't grasp the emotions that are involved with this tough situtation, I think that most of society feels as I do. Most times it is those that are not involved in the heavy emotions that see things more clearly. I believe this is true in this case. Like you said, no one's mind is going to be changed by what another person feels. That is true. I wasn't trying to change anyone's mind. I was only attempting to rely to others on this board a perspective different than their own.

"I believe an OC is not "abandoned" (by legal standards) if he or she is receiving financial support. Emotional support is the responsiblity of the mother in these OW/OC situations. "

Not to beat the issue to death, but that is not the standard for abandonment by society at large because you are only referring to legalities here, not morals. Most people feel it is morally wrong to abandon one of your own.


"=^^= The joke is on the man....he was only out for fun and games and to stroke his ego...he wasn't looking to be daddy. In this day and age of birth control shouted from the mountains into every pre-teen's classroom, what man would expect that any woman would be without protection today? He didn't "bring a child into this world"...the one person who has all the power did! The woman!
The woman has complete power over the situation from beginning to end....she determines initially if there will be sex or not."

Oh Cat, tell me as a fellow women that you do not let men off the hook this easily! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> No arguement on the fact that men are only looking for sex and not to be a father. But, oh, they DO VERY MUCH control whether they have sex or not!! They do very much control whether they take the chance, as a woman does, to create a child.

Gotta go or I'd type more. Everyone enjoy their evening! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Congratulations Chris on finding that Strong Chris and making a decision that you feel comfortable with. Yes, this IS Marriage Builders and the goal IS to try to save marriages, however not all are meant to be saved nor should be.

You may change your mind and decide to reconcile before the divorce is final. You might decide to follow through and end it. Regardless, you are gaining personal strength and self-worth and taking charge of your life.

The best of luck to you and your kids Chris.

TheFeminineSide,

"I think that most of society feels as I do."

"Not to beat the issue to death, but that is not the standard for abandonment by society at large because you are only referring to legalities here, not morals. Most people feel it is morally wrong to abandon one of your own."

Where do you gather these "facts" as to how society feels? "Most people" have have very strong opinions on many subjects til they "walk in those shoes."

TFS,

I don't think you can speak for all of those that have not been in this situation. I know you don't speak for men. Your bias is rather strong, and not founded in facts. When in comes to pregnancy women get the "right of first refusal" all along the lines.

I realize it goes against your and other woman's sense of victimhood, but women CONTROL this process from beginning to end. They have NOTHING to complain about. They make choice in the beginning, the middle , and the end. The male gets on option.

Even as Cat pointed out, the interaction with the OC is orchastrated by the mother. Women are not victims here, they drive the bus.

I have little sympathy for the men who have affairs and get into this mess, but I have even less for the women.

I find it amusing that you would NEVER trust a man that fathered a child and then only contributed CS. But, you could become friends with a mother who couldn't support a child she conceived with a married man??? In one case it was an accident. In the second case an accident is compounded by a series of choices.

You have no idea why men may not see the OC or even their other children, but alot has to do with the laws of this country. Fortunately for you, you will NEVER have a judge tell you that you can see someone you love every OTHER weekend, you are a female. How fortunate for you.

So while you make some valid points, your characterizations of men, and those POOR VICTIMIZED , DEFENSELESS women who conceive children by them, does bother me.

God Bless,

JL

.

Nobody can speak for another person's situation on this Preg/Child Forum... How anyone can presume to speak for society when they are not even involved with OC/OP/WS/BS predicaments is BEYOND me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

JL,
Gotta love you! You may have seen my joke earlier in this thread....

Something about a girl saying "With one of these (vagina) I can get all of those (penis) I want!"

Women definately "drive the bus"

makingamends,
Loved the comment!


Heavenly, Catnip, and ktbunch,
Thanks for both of your help...ktbunch hit on my feelings....things are better as H left a note for me when I got home today.

It was a love note telling me we have a beautiful life and should not waste anymore time fighting about the past. He also said I misunderstood, that when I asked about going to ow room that he meant the nursery... Huh? I think I heard it right but who knows?

Heavenlybody26, Much thanks for your caring concern after I blasted you. Your post was what I needed to hear. You have a special way of making things look so much better....

Catnip, Your words comforted me also, I knew he had gone to the hospital to see oc after delivery but he maintained he never stopped by and saw ow. I don't know if I heard wrong or not <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> .

DevastatedChris,
I hope you will be all right. You sound confident. Please update us won't you?

love
Debi

TFS,

According to your ( and "the rest of the world's") logic, a husband is a BAD man if he chooses his wife and family over the oc .
So to follow your logic through, he would be a GOOD man if he divorced me and broke up my children's home so he could be with oc ? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

So he's a bad man for hurting oc but he would be a good man if he hurt our children.

Lady, that is some pretty twisted logic you got going on.

I think the point that TFS is trying to make is that these men are being let off the hook far too easily. We all get caught up in the moment, so to speak. It's up to us all to take responsibility for not putting the stops on, not just the woman simply because she is the one who can get pregnant. It sounds as if too many people are enabling these men to be irresponsible. If the law didn't mandate cs, how many would also enable these ws's to not live up to their financial obligations based on the decision that they did have to make: risk or no risk (sex/no sex)? If there is to be blame, then blame the 2 who created the situation. I see no point in the blame if it requires blaming the woman and making excuses for the man.

***I see no point in the blame if it requires blaming the woman and making excuses for the man. ***

They are both at fault.
But...
we women having been screaming for reproductive freedom over our bodies for years.
With greater freedom comes greater responsibility.
It is ultimitly my responsibility as a women what happens to my body and I believe blaming a man makes me look weak and foolish.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Originally posted by CeeCee68:
We all get caught up in the moment, so to speak. It's up to us all to take responsibility for not putting the stops on, not just the woman simply because she is the one who can get pregnant.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">HAHAHAHA <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

This is the *opposite* message that I am teaching my 14-year-old daughter!!!

I am teaching her that SHE controls her own reproductive choices ....

and because SHE is the one who carries the uterus ....

SHE better not rely on a man to stop first...

I am teaching MY daughter that SHE has the power .... and she has the most to lose....

Good lord.... what a wimpy message you are saying to send out to young women!

Pep (shaking my head in wonderment)

Pep, even I have to agree with you 100%. Wow

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CeeCee68:
<strong> these men are being let off the hook far too easily.

=^^= Really? That's incredible to hear this. While I admit some men get off pretty easy, I don't know of any here at least. Most of the men here have been through their own brand of hell that is pretty indescribable, money being the least of it.

It's up to us all to take responsibility for not putting the stops on, not just the woman simply because she is the one who can get pregnant.

=^^= Name one man you were ever with that said to you, "Uh, we're going to have to stop now...we can't do this if you aren't practicing birth control".

It sounds as if too many people are enabling these men to be irresponsible.....

=^^= ....beginning with the OW

If the law didn't mandate cs,...

=^^= .... a lot more women would make dang sure their birth control worked and would protect their bodies because they would know they would not be getting the huge income shares that have become such an attractive alternative to getting a job. The law has turned CS into a incentive program to get knocked up...God, where is Bystander when you need him?

I see no point in the blame if it requires blaming the woman and making excuses for the man...

=^^= ....or granting absolution to a woman who knew well ahead of time that the man was married to someone else...

I mean, we could go on and on, point counterpoint. The blame is equal, that's for sure, but the one who has the power to call the shots and make all the decisions is the woman.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Pep and Cat...I LOVE YOU BOTH !!!!!!!!!!!

JL,
It sounds like you have been hurt deeply by a similar situation. I feel for your pain. I must however disagree with you on some points. You have taken much of what I said and misinterpreted it. I could be my poor writing of my thoughts! LOL Here goes.

" realize it goes against your and other woman's sense of victimhood, but women CONTROL this process from beginning to end. They have NOTHING to complain about. They make choice in the beginning, the middle , and the end. The male gets on option."

You have not understood what I wrote previously if you think that I think that women who get themselves pregnant by sleeping willingly with a man are victims. Far from it! I don't see OW as victims at all! Now I do see the OC as victims. When you say the the male gets no option (I assume you meant "on" to be "no" above) you are being totally silly and ridiculous to boot!! Men most assuradly get the option of NOT SLEEPING WITH anyone but their WIVES. That is their option. They also get the option of using condoms (with the full knowledge that they ARE taking a risk of creating a child). They can also go get fixed. Don't tell people that men don't get an option. Yes, they do. No one made these men sleep with someone other than their wives. That is an irresponsible viewpoint. Can you explain to me how a man gets his **** into an OW if not by HIS OWN will and decision? And for the record, Again, I do NOT believe women are victims in any shape or form.


I have little sympathy for the men who have affairs and get into this mess, but I have even less for the women.

"I find it amusing that you would NEVER trust a man that fathered a child and then only contributed CS. But, you could become friends with a mother who couldn't support a child she conceived with a married man???"

Excuse me, but where did you read that? I didn't mention one word about being friends with a mother/OW in this situation. That said, I suppose I could be "friends", but not choose her as an intimate partner. LOL The criteria for choosing an acquaintance vs choosing a husband is a tad different don't you think? Did you choose your husband on the same criteria that you do women you are "friendlike" with? I should hope not. It might seem amusing to you, but I think it is irresponsible and risky for a women to marry a man who has proven himself untrustworthy and weak and a liar on top of that!!

Since I have many male friends who are divorced, I full well know the courts are not favorable to men. It is not an equal system we live in. I totally agree with you on that. I have to admit that I was very aware during my decision to divorce that I did not have to worry about not seeing or living with my children.

Binn,
"Nobody can speak for another person's situation on this Preg/Child Forum"

That is very true. I wasn't presuming to speak for anyone on this forum. As I have said in every post, I am not involved in this situation and am only giving you an outsiders perspective. Did you not read my posts? As far as society, I am quit sure that most people (maybe because they aren't involved) would agree with my stated understanding of "moral obligations" regarding men and children. All children, not just one's born under marriage. Since I first read this thread I have asked nearly 30 people, men and women what they thought about men and their moral obligation towards an OC, there was 2 men who said that the man wouldn't be obligated. All the remainder of the people agreed that they were. While I realize this is far from a formal study, I think even you know society holds men and women accountable for the lives they bring into this world. All the babies, not just the ones they choose to be responsible for.

Tjigger,
"According to your ( and "the rest of the world's") logic, a husband is a BAD man if he chooses his wife and family over the oc ."

You have not read something correctly, or I have mistyped. NEVER did I say or even advocate for a man in this situation to divorce his Wife and leave his children!! You have made this into an either or situation. I did not. I was advocating for a man to not leave his Wife and children...and that includes all his children.

CeeCee,

Wow! Very well said and worth repeating!!
"I think the point that TFS is trying to make is that these men are being let off the hook far too easily. We all get caught up in the moment, so to speak. It's up to us all to take responsibility for not putting the stops on, not just the woman simply because she is the one who can get pregnant. It sounds as if too many people are enabling these men to be irresponsible. If the law didn't mandate cs, how many would also enable these ws's to not live up to their financial obligations based on the decision that they did have to make: risk or no risk (sex/no sex)? "

Tj,
"It is ultimitly my responsibility as a women what happens to my body and I believe blaming a man makes me look weak and foolish. "

Tell us WHERE in your thinking does a man have to take responsibility for who he has SEX with?? Are you saying that we women should let all men off the hook and allow them the freedom and irresponsible nature of screwing whomever, whenever they like? And then to let them walk away after producing child after child whom they will not help raise or love or guide into adulthood? Please tell me you don't allow men to use you like this.