Welcome to the
Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum

This is a community where people come in search of marriage related support, answers, or encouragement. Also, information about the Marriage Builders principles can be found in the books available for sale in the Marriage Builders® Bookstore.
If you would like to join our guidance forum, please read the Announcement Forum for instructions, rules, & guidelines.
The members of this community are peers and not professionals. Professional coaching is available by clicking on the link titled Coaching Center at the top of this page.
We trust that you will find the Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum to be a helpful resource for you. We look forward to your participation.
Once you have reviewed all the FAQ, tech support and announcement information, if you still have problems that are not addressed, please e-mail the administrators at mbrestored@gmail.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 8 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
#824220 12/04/03 09:51 AM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 132
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 132
I wanted to add that I only joined in on this thread to learn and to debate. Catnip and I have done great in this regard. Her posts are clear, concise and show no hint of fog regarding this subject. Some of the others posters seem to be experiencing real problems with another viewpoint being given. If you are one of those posters, please don't read my posts as they are upsetting to you and I that is not my intent here. I do not want to cause those who are struggling with this issue further pain...they have been dealt enough by their own husbands and an OW.

Pepper,
I have two daughters who are both grown. I successfully taught then to take control of their own bodies. To be responsible for who they love or have sex with. I am proud of them because they have always been responsible in this regard. Neither have been pregnant. Neither sleep around or with unavailable men. Where we differ is that I also taught my son he is responsible for what he does with his body. That he can not sleep with whomever with disregard to consequences. That he is as reponsible as any woman regarding sex or any other behavior. Why would you teach your son to not be responsbile for his behavior? I don't mean this to be a smartass. It is a serious question.

#824221 12/04/03 10:49 AM
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 35,996
P
Member
Offline
Member
P
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 35,996
Originally posted by TheFeminineSide:
Why would you teach your son to not be responsbile for his behavior? I don't mean this to be a smartass. It is a serious question.

HAHAHAHA <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Nooooo .... this is a smartass question! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> But, that's OK, I don't mind one bit!

"Why would you teach your son to not be responsible for his behavior?"

WHY would you assume I teach my son to be irresponsible? Hummmmmmm?

Pep

#824222 12/04/03 11:01 AM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 132
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 132
Pepper,
Pardon me if I misread. It looks like I misinterpreted.

So does your last post mean that you see MM who bring a child into this world (married to the mother or not) as morally obligated to help in raising that child? That you see MM as responsible for the creating of the child as the woman?

#824223 12/04/03 11:13 AM
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 35,996
P
Member
Offline
Member
P
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 35,996
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Originally posted by TheFeminineSide:
Pepper,
Pardon me if I misread. It looks like I misinterpreted.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you AGREE or DISAGREE with my previous post (what I am teaching my daughter)?

Pep



#824224 12/04/03 11:16 AM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 132
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 132
Pepper,
I thought I made that clear with my recount of what I taught my own daughters. Of course I agree with teaching our daughters to be responsible for their sexual behavior, as well as any other behavior. Just as I believe in teaching our sons the same and holding them just as accountable. Why the question without responding to mine? Will you answer mine?

#824225 12/04/03 11:43 AM
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 35,996
P
Member
Offline
Member
P
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 35,996
So does your last post mean that you see MM who bring a child into this world (married to the mother or not) as morally obligated to help in raising that child?

Any man is morally (and legally) obligated to provide for all of his children.

I do not think that MM directly raising OC is always necessary or always desirable.

If raising OC destroys the primary family, then, in my opinion, the MM is morally obligated to save his family from destruction.

If OC can be held as a dear and welcome addition to the primary family .... well, that would be the ideal, would it not?

~~~Here's my question for YOU:~~~

Are YOU saying MM should raise OC EVEN IF doing so destroys his wife and children and breaks apart that family?

Pep

#824226 12/04/03 11:52 AM
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 35,996
P
Member
Offline
Member
P
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 35,996
AND .... an additional question:

Are YOU saying that an OC born to a married woman who's husband has agreed to raise that child as one of his own .... are you saying the OM has a *moral obligation* to negotiate with that intact family and that he must participate in raising the OC?


#824227 12/04/03 11:54 AM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 132
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 132
"Are YOU saying MM should raise OC EVEN IF doing so destroys his wife and children and breaks apart that family?"

No Pepper, that would be just as horrific a consequence for all the other kids of his!! Now if he does have a wife, but no other children, I'd side with the OC.

It seems to me that what the problem is here is the adults (W and OW) wanting to put themselves first and not the children involved. Also to blame are men who are worthless and irresponsible who don't have the balls to take the tough stand and help raise a child they created. These type of men should be dumped by all women!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Why can't a W who wants to keep her H and marriage allow, even encourage, her H to be part of his OC's life? NC for the OW, but not for the child. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

#824228 12/04/03 12:02 PM
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 35,996
P
Member
Offline
Member
P
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 35,996
Originally posted by TheFeminineSide:

Also to blame are men who are worthless and irresponsible who don't have the balls to take the tough stand and help raise a child they created. These type of men should be dumped by all women!!

Well now, there is an interesting solution.

Are you currently married?

How many times have you been married?



Why can't a W who wants to keep her H and marriage allow, even encourage, her H to be part of his OC's life?

Often because the OW wants to continue to have sex with her husband.

NC for the OW, but not for the child.

That works for me too. But not usually what works for the OW ... they usually don't want MM's wife around "her" child! OW usually want only the MM to visit the chiild under OW's supervison!

What would be your solution to that?


#824229 12/04/03 12:16 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 741
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 741
I thought a lot after I went to bed.
Having moved a sleeping Lil Bit and her Care Bears out of my bed into her own bed, I began to think about what she has been through. Then I began thinking about other OCs and their situations...

These are my thoughts....

Lil Bit and Amiee2's OCs are the only ones that I know of, whose bio-dad has Full/Primary Custody of them.
Amiee2's kids have absolutely no contact from their bio-mom.
Lil Bit has had very little contact from her bio-mom this summer/fall.

We hear on the boards, not just this one, about the Bio-Dads that have N/C with the OC... What about the OW that have N/C or "token contact"??? There may be very few of these women… yet, Amiee2’s situation and mine, as well, are proof they do exist.

----

As far as N/C… I have no problem with it at all. I truly believe that should either side choose N/C, then so be it. It’s best for a child to have one home and not be shuffled back and forth.
The best possible situation for any child, be they an OC or a BC, is a 2 parent home, without outside interference. That is the way it is supposed to be, a father and a mother raising their children together. Should a divorce occur, should an OC be brought into the world, it disrupts this whole scenario.
Single parents have it hard; there is no doubt about that. But choosing to raise a child alone is just that, a choice. It is a choice that affects the child directly.
For a MM or OW to choose N/C.. that is their choice to make. And that too, affects the child directly.

We all try to make the best of a bad situation. WS and BS making choices for their marriages and families … OW making choices for their children…

Should a WH and BW choose N/C, it should not be about the OC. It should be about recovering and rebuilding, after the A.
Now the OW has a choice to make… She can choose to accept N/C or not. If she refuses to accept N/C, then she jeopardizes her child’s emotional state, no matter how young the child.
Should she accept N/C and raise the child alone, she can focus on the child’s well being and do what is best for her own life.

Should a WH and BW choose Contact, the OW has the choice to accept or reject it. Should she accept C… she should be focused on maintaining a civil environment with the MM and his W…. Keeping things smooth for the child is the most important thing.
Should she refuse contact, she should be focused on what is best for her child.

Ultimately, it comes down to the OW’s choice of how to handle the C/NC situation that most directly affects the OC. Whether or not the MM has contact, its still the OW that “usually” has custody of the OC. She is then ultimately responsible for the well being of the child.

----

Pep,
You are AWESOME!!!
(hugs)

#824230 12/04/03 12:27 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,536
K
Member
Offline
Member
K
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,536
TFS; about the "forced to pay CS...why not OW pay for therapy"....what I was referring to and was not clear is that men are FORCED to take responsibility for things while the OW is not forced to take responsibility for anything. It may have been a bad correlation but thanks for understanding catnip. Sorry for the confusion.

My question is what are OW responsible for? No one FORCES them to do or take responsibility for anything. They can have an abortion whenever they want, they can give up OC for adoption, or they (most common) CHOOSE to have and keep their baby.....so why don't MEN have a choice? Any men, not just MM w/ child from A. Men who are married usually have a plan that has children in the future with thier spouse. An A has no "real" plan.

I do agree w/ the opinion that CS seems to work as an "incentive" for unmarried mothers. And it works as a punishment towards men and then, if they are MM, towards their families. How many single dads do you know, only work part-time, get welfare and collect CS? How many men do you even know who would ever even consider doing such a thing as all that? They may get CS in some cases but they would never sit around and take handouts like that and society would "probably" look down on them for not being "real" men to provide for their families. (no statistical evidence here, just my POV from my personal experiences) So I think society automatically sees men as "providers" and that is why the courts are set up as they are and that is why it is ok, appropriate and logical for MM to have NC because they will still always be "responsible" and provide for OC by paying CS.

Choosing NC does NOT mean a MM is irresponsible, he proves his responsibility by paying CS. Otherwise you would have to say that the OW is irresponsible since she can not financially support her child. She is providing the emotional support while MM is providing financial CS. Is he being a "father", not to OC and he knows that, we all know that and do not deny that. He has chosen to be a "father" to his BC and try to make up for the time he wasn't while he was out having A.

Women do have all the power. I know that, you know that, we all know that. Do we have all the responsibility? NO, hardly any, but we do have all the power so we should take responsibility. Why can't men have as much choice as a woman? If he wants to be a father he will be and if he doesn't then he doesn't have to.....uh oh...but that would mean we, as women, would have to take.....RESPONSIBILITY!!!!


As far as the continuing opinion of .....why would you want the lying man you had an A w/ to be your child's father?......huh? (not an EXACT quote for you nitpickers, but a common read opinion around here) Is there no forgiveness, can people not change? Otherwise, then the OW would also have to be an unfit mother since she is a "home-wrecker". So many double standards on these boards.

Why are we even debating this junk? If you want C then do it and if you don't then don't. If you ask for an opinion you will be given 1000 and the ones with personal experience to back it up will be worth paying attention to. The ones without will just be empty "judgements" disguised as opinions.(again, no hard, statistical evidence here, just MY opinion from my own personal experience) Make your choice on what is best for your marraige and family not because some one guilted or bullied you into your decision. No one should feel guilty for doing what is BEST and RIGHT for their families and marriage!

You will get support what ever you choose (I think/hope, sometimes it just depends what side of the "contact" fence you are on). I trust that you will do what is best for YOUR family and marriage and if you make a choice different from MINE, I KNOW that you have done the RIGHT thing for YOUR family and that is the BEST decision.


It's as simple as that.

#824231 12/05/03 01:04 AM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 778
L
Member
Offline
Member
L
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 778
KT, you are so good at explaining how many of us feel. Good job!!

CeeCee - You mention if the law didn't provide for cs, then these men would pay nothing...I will take that farther. If the law didn't require CS how many OW would be getting pregnant?

TFS - How can you sit and pass judgment on a situation where you have absolutely no experience? You state society and it's views on the fathers? Where do you get your statistics from? Maybe it's your opinion, but you can't state that as a statistic.

Cat - As usual, great voice!!

#824232 12/05/03 01:22 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,536
K
Member
Offline
Member
K
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,536
thanks lynn , I think I learned that from you.....and catnip. You inspire me and MY voice. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

It's nice to be able to vent and finally find other w/ the same heartache, forgiveness, and situation.

I've felt so alone this past year and a half, not ever knowing or meeting someone else with a situation like mine. (A producing OC) I have great friends around me who have been so supportive but it was so frustrating too because their "advice" just couldn't "hit home". The really good ones would just say, "I don't know what to say, I don't know what you should do but how can I help you?" I appreciated that the most.

Now, it is comforting to find a "place" where people have been through the fire, are not giving up, and have many of my same, insane struggles, and still love their H and are actually trying.

It's encouraging on those days when you just say......"Why the HECK am I doing all this again? Would any one else put up w/ this junk?" It's easier to keep it together when you are not alone and someone can actually show you the light at the end of the tunnel and you find you are not really crazy. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> (well, most of the time <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> )


I'm really looking forward to Christmas THIS year. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ December 04, 2003, 12:35 PM: Message edited by: ktbunch ]</small>

#824233 12/04/03 02:01 PM
Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 15,284
J
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 15,284
TFS,

Since you like to debate, I am all for it. By your id name you have clearly chosen the Feminist side, I feel obligated to choose the male side. Fair enough?? So perhaps, I should introduce myself to you. You see many of the ladies and gentlemen on this site know me, but you apparently do not. So first order of business is that I am a male. I have never been in the situation under discussion, in fact I have never been divorced on involved in an affair. Neither has my W. I came to this site many years ago for different reasons, but I started to post because of a woman that had an OC and had not told her H. When she did she treated him horribly, and I made my first post. So your first comment to me did require an explanation.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It sounds like you have been hurt deeply by a similar situation. I feel for your pain. I must however disagree with you on some points. You have taken much of what I said and misinterpreted it. I could be my poor writing of my thoughts! LOL Here goes.

" realize it goes against your and other woman's sense of victimhood, but women CONTROL this process from beginning to end. They have NOTHING to complain about. They make choice in the beginning, the middle , and the end. The male gets on option."

You have not understood what I wrote previously if you think that I think that women who get themselves pregnant by sleeping willingly with a man are victims. Far from it! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So I guess you think that man taking responsibility means that he does exactly as much as women do? You see to me, a woman that sleeps with a married man, becomes pregnant, chooses to carry the child to term, and then keep the child as made her OWN bed. Yes, the male in this situation owes the OC something and the courts assiduously make sure that the male pays. So how is he dodging his duty? That is a rhetorical question that I will address in a moment, but the short answer is he is NOT. And there is a very clear reason why he is not. It can be fixed trivially but YOU and the rest of the women will NOT like it.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't see OW as victims at all! Now I do see the OC as victims. When you say the the male gets no option (I assume you meant "on" to be "no" above) you are being totally silly and ridiculous to boot!! Men most assuradly get the option of NOT SLEEPING WITH anyone but their WIVES. That is their option. They also get the option of using condoms (with the full knowledge that they ARE taking a risk of creating a child). They can also go get fixed. Don't tell people that men don't get an option. Yes, they do. No one made these men sleep with someone other than their wives. That is an irresponsible viewpoint. Can you explain to me how a man gets his **** into an OW if not by HIS OWN will and decision? And for the record, Again, I do NOT believe women are victims in any shape or form.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, let’s get this straight. A man “gets his **** into an OW “ ONLY if she lets him. Shall we talk about society raising the plight of the single woman to heroine status?? Shall we talk about all men be considered “dead beat dad’s” or at least potential “dead beat dad’s” Yet, the statistics show that in the very few cases where women are required to pay child support they fail to do so in numbers that match or exceed men’s. Yet, the image is clearly very one sided. The assumption is that the single mom was abandoned by the male, but the reality is that women now have affairs the same rate as men. They cheat on their marriage, and the only reason they are single mom’s is that they broke the marriage. But, that is NOT the perception, the perception is that they are victims of the males. This seems to be a basis for this discussion as well.

But, the point is the OW is NOT a victim. The child she chose to carry, chose to keep, is a victim and in some ways a victim of her selfishness. She could give the baby up for adoption and give this child the love and nurturing that you so eloquently argue for. She and society have no problem with the fact that the father of this child CANNOT take the child and raise it as his own in his house with his other children, and allow OW to see the child occasionally. And she would never consider offering the child a better life herself, which would mean giving the child up for adoption. The selfishness is clearly on the hands of the OW. She holds the cards and she plays them as she sees fit.

I can assure you of one thing, the male involved especially a married male DID NOT WANT THIS CHILD CONCEIVED. In most cases neither did the OW, but in some cases and we have posters here who have been in this case the OW did deliberately get pregnant. So even this call is the OW’s. How do you address that? The betrayal and the sex act have occurred, the horse is out of the barn. At this point the female calls all of the shots and may have called the shot of becoming pregnant.

We are NOT debating whether infidelity is right or wrong. We are debating the handling the consequences of this infidelity, and the woman gets to call ALL of the shots. Which will lead to my final statement in a moment.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have little sympathy for the men who have affairs and get into this mess, but I have even less for the women.

"I find it amusing that you would NEVER trust a man that fathered a child and then only contributed CS. But, you could become friends with a mother who couldn't support a child she conceived with a married man???"

Excuse me, but where did you read that? I didn't mention one word about being friends with a mother/OW in this situation. That said, I suppose I could be "friends", but not choose her as an intimate partner. LOL The criteria for choosing an acquaintance vs choosing a husband is a tad different don't you think? Did you choose your husband on the same criteria that you do women you are "friendlike" with?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I didn’t choose a husband, but your statement wasn’t talking about friends. The discussion was about trust in general. I have learned on this site, that people do learn. Some of the most intelligent, helpful, and nicest people on this site have turned out to be female WS. I have had the pleasure of personally meeting one or two in person along with their spouses. I truly believe that they are trustworthy people. They learned and they grew. You will also find on this site some of the most eloquent posters are former male WS’s. People learn and grow. You might do well to choose these people for your trust.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I should hope not. It might seem amusing to you, but I think it is irresponsible and risky for a women to marry a man who has proven himself untrustworthy and weak and a liar on top of that!!

Since I have many male friends who are divorced, I full well know the courts are not favorable to men. It is not an equal system we live in. I totally agree with you on that. I have to admit that I was very aware during my decision to divorce that I did not have to worry about not seeing or living with my children.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You then also probably know male friends who cheated on their W’s as well as those whose wives cheated on them. Do you trust them?? You are very right, men stand to lose everything when affairs and divorce are the topic. If you had to address the possibility of losing your children to your H, would you have thought about divorce differently?? Perhaps.

Now let’s consider a MM who finds himself in an affair and the OW pregnant. Whether he wants to be a father or not to the OC, he has a serious legal problem. If he chooses to be in the OC’s life he risks a variety of things. Divorce because his W will not accept the OC and by definition the OW into her life, thus he loses the children of the marriage. He faces the possibility of the affair reigniting as does his W, which will end the marriage even if the W was willing to fight through the shock of he having an OC, this leads to divorce and losing his children from the marriage. Now let’s say he chooses to be in the OC’s life, and even carry on the affair thus losing his W and his children, then the normal thing occurs: the A ends. He then loses the OW and the OC as well. You see most affairs end, they do not lead to marriage and the few that do lead to marriage succeed at a very low rate. SOOOOO, the best choice for the MM is to stay with his W, and keep OC out of his life.

You see the fact that the women almost always get the children means that his choices are very limited IF he loves children and wants to be in their life. This IS NOT a consideration you had to deal with, whether you were the W or the OW. I know you are not the OW, but you see my point. Women can come and go from marriages with confidence that the most important part of the marriage (the children) will never be lost to her. A male can predict with confidence that he will NOT have the children and he will lose the most important product of the marriage. It makes the decision making process completely different.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">CeeCee,

Wow! Very well said and worth repeating!!
"I think the point that TFS is trying to make is that these men are being let off the hook far too easily. We all get caught up in the moment, so to speak. It's up to us all to take responsibility for not putting the stops on, not just the woman simply because she is the one who can get pregnant. It sounds as if too many people are enabling these men to be irresponsible. If the law didn't mandate cs, how many would also enable these ws's to not live up to their financial obligations based on the decision that they did have to make: risk or no risk (sex/no sex)? "</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Enabling the men to be irresponsible?? You are very wrong on all counts. Tell you what, why don’t we go back to how it was in the good old days. In those days the MEN got the children and the woman was shown the door. You will find that the men weren’t irresponsible. What you are seeing are the consequences of diminished choices. Most people know it. So the trade off or devils bargain is/was you(the male) will lose day to day contact or all contact but you will get to contribute financially. The women and the women’s organization loved it. They could get the money, and get the men out of their lives. It meant financial gain, no responsibility as how the money was spent and she had freedom to remarry or NOT as she chose. Further, since in many states the CS is open ended she could clean him out and get spousal support.

Women traded in men for money and kept the kids. The men were NOT let off the hook. Quit being the victim here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pepper,
I thought I made that clear with my recount of what I taught my own daughters. Of course I agree with teaching our daughters to be responsible for their sexual behavior, as well as any other behavior. Just as I believe in teaching our sons the same and holding them just as accountable. Why the question without responding to mine? Will you answer mine?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, how is your son going to take responsibility? Are you going to change the laws so that HE can raise the child if he wants to?? Are you going to give him equal access to the child and equal probability of custodial rights? Or is your idea of your son taking responsibility, paying the money, ruining his marriage by traveling back and forth to see a child that may live in some other part of the country? Where is this responsibility you all want so bad going to benefit his family, not just the OC. Where is he going to have the RIGHT to be a responsible father? I would suggest to you, that the logical, the most loving, the financially best thing for the OC is to be in the home of the married person. The family is there, the money is there, the siblings are there.

In fact, that is exactly what the courts have decided…IF the person pregnant is the W. So then the H gets to raise the OC or lose his marriage and the rest of his children.

FTS, you are debating on an issue that is so fraught with imbalances, both biologically and legally that you cannot win the debate. The OC is screwed and so is the male who wants to be the father you think he should be. THAT is why the decision making you label as “getting away with it” bothers me so. They are making the only reasonable decision they can make given the circumstances.

There are notable exceptions and Mother of 5 is one of them. But, they are local, she is the WS so she gets the child, and her H has to deal with it or lose her.

I look forward to your response.

God Bless,

JL

#824234 12/04/03 03:11 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 617
L
Member
Offline
Member
L
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 617
Must admit, I have not read all the 153 posts <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> But I want to add my 2 cents.

Written by Ktbunch
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My question is what are OW responsible for? No one FORCES them to do or take responsibility for anything. They can have an abortion whenever they want, they can give up OC for adoption, or they (most common) CHOOSE to have and keep their baby.....so why don't MEN have a choice? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, true. She told my H about the preg. he said what he wanted, why he wanted it, and gave her advice on how to come to a decision. She did not listen or care. She did everything he told her not to do. She controlled everything, still does. She only cares about her-self, not him or our kids.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I do agree w/ the opinion that CS seems to work as an "incentive" for unmarried mothers. And it works as a punishment towards men and then, if they are MM, towards their families.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with this idea too. Plus it gives them reason to stay in their lives.

I like the idea that OW should pay for therapy. Therapy for MM's kids who have to deal with an illigit sib and OC who has to deal with how they were brought into this world.

The idea that in M, couples plan for a child. My H told OW that if they ever got married that he in no way wanted more children. This was for a number of reasons, $ being one of them. Already has two, can't afford another. Now, we are forced to pay for another that we ourselves would not have had. My children who were planned for will have less for the rest of their lives. Why not let the father provide the emotional support and the mother provide the financialy support? After all, she is the one who made the choice to have the chld.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Women do have all the power. I know that, you know that, we all know that. Do we have all the responsibility? NO, hardly any, but we do have all the power so we should take responsibility. Why can't men have as much choice as a woman? If he wants to be a father he will be and if he doesn't then he doesn't have to.....uh oh...but that would mean we, as women, would have to take.....RESPONSIBILITY!!!! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Interesting concept. We asked for equal rights but yet when given the opportunity to be equal we back away from it. We want the right to choose but yet when we choose to have a child we look to the man for financial support, therefore we not taking full responsibility for our choice.

Equal rights? Are we really saying that we are equal to men or do we just want to be equal when it's convenient to us?

I think a child born in marriage, of a holy union, where the decision to have it was mutual should always be supported emotionally and financially by both parents (in marriage and in the event of a D). However,when the child is brought into this world due to an error and it was not the wish of one party to have that child, why should they be made to make it part of their life? The party who chose to have that child should take ALL the responsibility.

Why is pro-choice only for the mother? Where is the man's right to pro-choice? He has none because it's her body. The man can't be pro-choice regarding the last name, first name, religious up brining, etc. They have none but yet, they better buck up.

ok. I said enough.

#824235 12/04/03 03:13 PM
Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 2,121
N
Member
Offline
Member
N
Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 2,121
JL,

Great explaination!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

#824236 12/04/03 03:20 PM
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 338
J
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 338
***Why can't a W who wants to keep her H and marriage allow, even encourage, her H to be part of his OC's life? NC for the OW, but not for the child***

Because most of us are not perfect.
I can not imagine trying to put my marriage back together after the trauma of an affair while visiting with and caring for oc. I think thats a little too much to ask of anyone. Although I realize some can do it, and do it well.
And you can say you could do it because you have never HAD to do it. It is very easy to say, very difficult to actually do.

And when it comes right down to it. I have no responsibility to oc's well being. No more than ow has regarding my children's well being (which she was all to happy to prove when she slept with their father). And yes yes yes I know he was responsible for 50 % of that decision.
My first and ONLY concern is to my marriage and my family. And ow is not welcomed into either. Now if you can ever find a way to completely seperate ow from oc then we might be able to do something different. But ow do not want that. They want to become part of the family unit.

#824237 12/04/03 03:37 PM
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 35,996
P
Member
Offline
Member
P
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 35,996
"The man can't be pro-choice regarding the last name, first name, religious up brining, etc. They have none but yet, they better buck up."

Interesting and valid points. Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

Pep

#824238 12/04/03 04:05 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 778
L
Member
Offline
Member
L
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 778
TFS, The OC is not the most important innocent person in this mess. Nor is the OC a concern for the BW. So you side with the OC? Then you are not concerned at all for "all" the people hurt, only the OC. Your views are narrow minded and judgemental. You are blaming the BW and BC for the outcome of a situation they had no part in creating. How disgustingly self serving. Then you call a man worthless and irresponsible if he doesn't take a toughstand and help raise the oc? Once again putting the OC before any and all other injured parties. How simply stupid and totally off base.

Couldn't you say that the OW is a worthless nag and irresponsible whore for bringing a child into the world under these circumstances? Yet, you hold all your contempt towards the MM and assume that he and his entire family, need to take on the responsibility of the oc? You are 100% wrong. You refuse to even consider the feelings of anyone but the OC.

It is quite clear that you are only here to push the OW/OC agenda. That your concern is not for the well being of the marriage and nuclear family, but that only of the OC. You continue on and on, about a topic that you say you have no experience with, and then sit in judgement of those who have.

The bottom line is quite simple. The oc is not the most important piece of the equation to the MM. Even if he does not have children with his wife, that does not put OC above her.

If the BW does not wish for contact, her husband should honor that. If there are children involved in the marriage, the BW and MM need to address their wellbeing first. If they do not want to deal with OC, they should not be sacrificed for OC.

THE OC IS NOT THE ONLY INNOCENT PERSON IN THIS SITUATION.

#824239 12/04/03 04:06 PM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 411
C
Member
Offline
Member
C
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 411
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Why can't a W who wants to keep her H and marriage allow, even encourage, her H to be part of his OC's life?

Often because the OW wants to continue to have sex with her husband.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In some cases its the other way around. The H has a hard time letting go of the OW. Having the W around during visits will keep things at bay, both ways.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Why can't a W who wants to keep her H and marriage allow, even encourage, her H to be part of his OC's life? NC for the OW, but not for the child.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Its also pretty common knowledge that with children involved, there will always be contact. You have to have contact to schedule pick up/off times, how the child is doing if sick, school ect ect. The only real way to actually have contact work is if the feeling are nolonger there between the WS and the OP. Even if it is just one of the two who still has feelings, contact really isn't going to work.

Page 8 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

Link Copied to Clipboard
Forum Search
Who's Online Now
1 members (NewEveryDay), 1,357 guests, and 77 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Mike69, petercgeelan, Zorya, Reyna98, Nofoguy
71,829 Registered Users
Building Marriages That Last A Lifetime
Copyright © 1995-2019, Marriage Builders®. All Rights Reserved.
Site Navigation
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5