AMEN - Lynn & Happy

Lynn,
I have mixed emotions on this.
While I can see your happy your cs pyments are done and am glad for that.
More importantly I feel for the boy(oc)who has never known the love of his father, or siblings, and possilbly a wonderfulstep mom, he is the one who has lost the most and I don't mean financaly,weather it was because of xow is mute now.
I hope he does seek out your husband, and they develope a relationship w/him and possibly all of you. It's never too late.
Also, if the boy decides to go to colledge who is responsible for that?
I know I love and OUR(H&I's) children but even though our visitation w/oc has only recently begun I love him too and pray things continue to go well for us.

YEAH!!! YIPPY!!!

Congratulations!! I'm thrilled to see some good news! OW house is her concern and it was her doing that put her house in danger! OW made the mess and Lynn made her lick it up! Good for you and your family that your a strong woman!

Enjoy that vacation and have a toast to the OW.

I'm happy for your Lynn. Have a grat time on your vacation, wherever and whenever it may be...

Looks like your original post ruffled some feathers at TOW lol..

Needtomoveon aka Marysway. Haven't heard you yet, I wonder what you really feel about this subject. Couldn't help but notice your post over there.

Sorry, sometimes I'm a bit nosy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

angels....

The ONLY thing ANY man is financially obligated to & for is CS. Not college, not cars, vacations, private school, dance lessons, karate, school lunch, JUST CS that is it.

THen it is up to ANY mother receiving CS to handle that money responsibly as she has the right to do whatever she wants w/ it & spend it however she sees fit.

I know of & have read about many women who receive CS that is WAY above what their child actually needs & they put into a college savings fund.

Any man cannot be held financially responsible to pay for a college education since that is something that is an OPTION not a RIGHT to any & every willing ADULT, not (usually) an dependent minor.

It has been attempted & the court found it UNCONSTITUTIONAL to require the father to provide for that optional education endeavor.

xoxoxoxoxox
kt

Lynn,

Congratulations for completing the financial obligations for the OC! I wish the best for you and your family and the freedom having that extra income will afford you and yours!

Both my parents and my husband's parents could have easily paid our college tuition....but they didn't. At 18 I was working fulltime and buying my own clothes. H and I both worked our way through college. My own children are doing the same. Why anyone would assume that this is a requirement or a "given" is beyond me. Further, I am convinced that having done that....I value my education more and am a stronger person.

Thank you for answering my ? about colledge I wasn't sure. sorry to TJ.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by happymom:
<strong> Thank you Lynn, you couldn't have worded it better. I find it amusing that ow believe cs is the right of the child and that seeking cs is their solemn duty to their child and making daddy own up to his responsibility is noble. But it's only his responsibility and her duty as a mother when h ends his relationship with her.

If the A is in full swing, WOW ow doesn't need his money. It's okay with her to share her man with an unsuspecting bw. It's okay to keep the paternity of her child a secret, like her child is something shameful, just to keep her lover. It's okay for mm to be a part time dad, to not be able to be with his child on holidays because he has family obligations. It's also okay that her child never knows his/her siblings. Yet when the A is over then the exmm and bw are evil for not treating her child as an equal even though she herself never has.

Bw's are bitter nasty women because we refuse to share our man, because we will put our family first and if that means nc, then so be it. Because we don't particlarly savor the idea that cs takes away from our children to give to hers. Maybe we are just not willing to put up with as much as they are. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">happymom, I disagree. If BIG IF I were still in affair with xmm having his child he would still be responsbile for that child. He is no different than my xh. My xh is still responsible for his children. Even when I first asked xh to leave and we were still trying to work it out I still expected him to help with his kids. The difference was I expected him to be there for them as well as help support them. Do I think it's noble? Who else is going to stick up for that child? It's my responsbilty to do so. That child has no one else to do so for. Just as your kids. I'm assuming your talking about your situtation? Not generalizing? Do I think it's noble???? NO, I feel it's my responsbilty. There's nothing noble about taking anyone to court to fight for there (both xmm and xow) child's rights. It's a shame. As far as a secret. I told xmm from the get go..........no more secrets if you want to see her, it's out in the open and not behind anyone's back. I won't put my child through you canceling due to family obligations as you have suggested. That is no way to treat your child. Looking at what I did for xmm was a waste of my time and love and energy. I would never put my children through that. Not right.

Any man cannot be held financially responsible to pay for a college education since that is something that is an OPTION not a RIGHT to any & every willing ADULT, not (usually) an dependent minor.


While some of these cases were overturned by their respective states, there are some states that still also allows these type of stipulations to be added if agreed upon.

There was a case not too long ago which was upheld in which the father agreed to continue to pay child support while his children went to college. However, he expected it to stop when they obtained undergrad degrees. When the daughter wanted to pursue a graduate degree, the mom went to court to make her ex to start his payments again. The judge ruled that since the agreement didn't specifically state that he was ONLY responsible for their undergrad education, he would uphold the original agreement and he had to start paying yet again. As long as they are pursing degrees, he is responsible for paying support.

By statute, court-ordered child support in New Hampshire ends when a child turns 18 or finishes high school, whichever is later, unless a court extends it. The law in most other states is similar. But data compiled by the National Conference of State Legislatures (1999, updated October, 2002) indicate seven states extend support to age 21 or beyond by statute, in some cases conditioned on continued educational enrollment. In Massachusetts, for example, child support may continue to age 23 for a child attending college who is principally dependent on parents for support.

Just remember all states are different!!!

<small>[ February 04, 2005, 12:46 PM: Message edited by: Stormyweather ]</small>

See, that was because the man originally AGREED to it.

It was not just forced upon him out of the blue.

But how lame.....here a man is FORCED to pay for his grown & supposedly 'adult' daughter's 'higher education'? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

More proof of the MESSED up CS system.....right along those men forced to continue to pay for children that have been DNA proven NOT thiers! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

KT, I will agree that the CS system in general needs to be overhauled and streamlined so that all states follow the same guidelines. It is ridiculous that even the basic guidelines for each and every state differs which causes confusion and conflict in so many of these cases.

It is also my personal belief that those men who are proven not to be the fathers should have some relief from child support plus recourse to sue for fraud if it can be proven that the woman knew there was a chance that he wasn't the father and never mentioned it.

I agree w/ you Stormy Weather about the women being held accountable if they knew there was a possiblity the child might not be the man's and he's been paying support.

I can't help but wnoder why the XOW in our case is satisfied w/ not having a father's name on the OC's birth certificate. To me it would be a matter of pride. I can not imagine leaving the place blank, and believe I would do everything I could for my child's father to be listed on the BC. Unless of course the dad was a safety issue, etc...

As far as the college issue goes, I have a Bachelor's degree and a Master's degree. My parents did not pay for either one. I worked my tail off to get them, and I'm still paying for my Bachelor's. If the parents agree to pay for them, I can understand it. I would like to help my children pay for their school if I can so they don't start off in debt like I did. However, if that's not financially possible, they can get loans just like I did. Ecspecially for Grad. school. You already have a bachelors and should be able to make a decent salary, and go to school at night. As a matter of fact, that's what I did. I got my Bachelor's, and got a full time job. I went to school at night for my Master's and paid cash for my tuition that time so as to not add to my student loans. It's tough, but not impossible.

I just don't understand why ow do not extend any courtesy to the children of the marriage. They yammer about how we "miss out" knowing the oc.....ah...... no. There are children everywhere, down the street, in the schools, shops, etc. I am positive to their families, they are wonderfull. But I don't think my life is less cause I don't know each and everyone of them. I have 4 living here and they keep me quite busy as it is. Yet they assume that their child is the only wonderful one. Well, they are the ones "missing out" on knowing my children! I happen to think that my kids are fab!! But I certainly don't think that complete strangers are missing out on knowing my kids....heck we have distant relatives who don't know my kids. I better call them and ask them how they sleep at night not knowing my kids. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I also love the "she only blames ow/oc..."" blah blah blah. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> How simple minded, stupid and wrong. I have never read,heard or seen any wife excuse her husbands affair. I swear I have never heard a wife say her "...poor husband tripped and fell into the ow...." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Usually the wife is hurt to her core and then livid with rage. Just a banal, standard issue ow statement! Lord how (some) ow love to play the victim!!!! Oh, well, consider the source!!!!


Angel, if the oc ever wants to speak to my husband,fine. BUT, what happens after will be soley up to my children. If they don't want him around, he wont be. If he has questions he will get answers, we have all the documents and proof to back up our side. He will learn that there were two sides to this and that while he may love her (as he should) that does not make her antics right or just. As far as him having any type of familial relationship with this family? I don't see that for a long long time, if ever. My children, over the years have had to endure tirades and learn of situations, due to ow antics. They are, and have a right to be extremely disgusted by everything. They also love their father very much, and me. I am sure that they do not want to share him, or have any upheaval of their home life. They are aware that the obligation of child support are over and they too see it as a ending. They realize that the family will not be forced to deal with stupid situations brought on by ow. I doubt very much that they will suddenly want to be the Brady Bunch and play happy family. It is not my childrens responsiblity to soothe any of his hurt, just as it is not his responsibility to ease theirs. My husband can explain to him whatever he wants to know, but my children will not be forced by anyone (including thier father) to do anything about this situation if they don't want to. If and when they meet it will not be cause he wants to meet them, it will only be if they agree to. Who knows, if he would even want to meet them. Personally, the boy is 17 years old. I doubt that he is spending his time obsessing about any of these details anyway. I am sure he is busy with school and friends himself. I am sure he has figured out all on his own why there was not contact.

The main thrust of this message is that time goes by fast, life is short, so live it the way you choose. Quit wasting time and energy on a situation that you can't change. Deal with it the way YOU want to and move on. Stand up for what you want and then let it go. Life has so much coming at you. And (less the ow types think otherwise, being simple minded and all....), why waste your time being down. Bad things happen too. People get sick, some die, some have car accidents, etc. Why waste today, a perfectly good day letting some little situation wreck it? Save your energy for the big stuff. Save it for when your daughter takes your car and along with her friends gets into an accident.....yes that happened to us. You want to talk heartbreak and fear....learning that was far far more traumatic then having to pay child support. Or how about when the family dog has to be put to sleep? That hurts to the core. So when I say the oc is just a detail, I mean it. Having an oc in your life (contact or not) is not life threatening, it can't kill you. Just chose what you want, and get moving and go live your life. You don't have to sit in a corner and cry for the next 20-30-40-50-60 years about this. Heck no. Deal with it and move on!!! If your ow is upset, who care? HER FEELINGS DON'T MATTER NOR DO THEY COUNT. If you are going for contact, remember your husband has just as much right to his child as she does. Don't let her walk on your family, she has no right to do so. If you don't want contact, don't. It is none of her business why you do or don't anyway. That is a decision made within your marriage, for your family. Just make a decision, get LEGAL ADVICE, work out the details and go and live your life! And go enjoy your family, let your husband seduce you and let him proove to you how sorry he is for what he has done to you. Enjoy holidays and birthdays and vacations. Enjoy family nights at the movies or having picnics in your home in the dead of winter....HAVE FUN. If he proves worthy, forgive him and love again. You will learn to trust again. Then someday, you will meet or learn of some woman, in the same situation you are in right now. You will be able to reach out to her and tell her that you understand how hurt she is. How scared she is. You will be able to support her through it. You will remember the fear and the pain and the anger. But you will also remember that life went on. That you and your husband had a rough spot, worked it out. You will tell her that you are happy with your life and that there is a future! There is life after all of this. Good and bad things happen all the time. So deal with this situation and move past it. Otherwise you are giving away perfectly good days! I remember I did that. I remember wasting time too. I had a dear friend kick me in the pants and shove me back to living. I will forever love her for her support and kindness, heck even for her screaming at me to get up and go shopping. I adore her!!

So, dear sweet hurting cyber friends, don't let this destroy you. Stand up. Be strong. Fix your hair, makeup, square up your shoulders and get living!!!! Cause someday this will just be something that happened.

Have a great weekend!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ktbunch:
<strong> See, that was because the man originally AGREED to it.

It was not just forced upon him out of the blue.

But how lame.....here a man is FORCED to pay for his grown & supposedly 'adult' daughter's 'higher education'? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

More proof of the MESSED up CS system.....right along those men forced to continue to pay for children that have been DNA proven NOT thiers! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe just maybe.........a father is able to and wants to help his child better educate himself and the option is there for him/her??? NAW your right KT, it's lame <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Didn't KT say that the courts forced him to pay for more? I was understanding it to be that he said no more.

I don't even owe my kids a college education. I will help, but they are ultimately responsible for the bill. Helping is not guaranteed. It comes with stipulations.

Made him pay for more what? They use to pay more cs until they got credit for the children or something like that....there is a word for it. I don't remember what it is.......but we are talking about child education. And if you read my comment it said if the father could afford it and wanted to............

{Blackrio's note: I thought this sort of tied in to our discussion since many of us think the CS system needs to be fixed. Looks like that is also true in Canada.}

Ruling a big red flag for men

By MINDELLE JACOBS

If men knew more about family law, they'd run screaming from single mothers prowling for relationships and father figures for their children.

Any lawyer will tell you that the nature of your relationship with a child - not biology - determines whether you're on the hook for child support.

Sperm has nothing to do with it, the Supreme Court of Canada ruled a few years ago.

And that's unfortunate for Justin Sumner, who married a woman thinking he'd fathered her daughter and is now stuck paying child support even though a DNA test proved he's not the dad.

Little Rhylee was born in August 2001, Justin and Dawn were married a year later and the couple separated about a year after that. They are now divorced.

As Court of Queen's Bench Justice Sterling Sanderman put it in his recent ruling: "Marriages are entered into casually and dissolved whimsically."

But your obligations to stepchildren continue, deadbeat biological dads notwithstanding.

One way men can possibly protect themselves from gold-digging single moms is to draw up a co-habitation agreement stating they have no intention of taking on a parental role, says Edmonton family lawyer Michelle Mackay.

"It may stand up in court. It may not," she says, adding the Supreme Court's 1999 decision placed the interests of the child first.

The high court was quite clear on that point. "Once a person is found to stand in the place of a parent, that relationship cannot be unilaterally withdrawn by the adult," the court stated.

It noted that sometimes men, and occasionally women, use kids as pawns to further relationships and then once the couple splits up, the children are abandoned.

"This is not to be encouraged," the court said, quoting a previous ruling. "If relationships are more difficult for a person to extricate him- or herself from then, perhaps, more children will be spared the trauma of rejection, bruised self-image and loss of financial support."

A stepdad being sued for child support can also try to get a judge to go after the biological father, says Mackay.

In fact, in the Sumner case, Sanderman ripped into Dawn, 33, for pursuing Justin for child support instead of the man who actually fathered her children because Justin had more money.

Dawn considered her previous lover, who also fathered her older child, as no more than "a surrogate donor," noted Sanderman.

"This is a matter that is merely about money," he added.

The case is no surprise to the men who have already been ordered to support other men's kids.

But it should be a red flag to other men contemplating moving in with single moms. Relationships rarely last long these days. Obligations, however, are not so easily shrugged off.

Justin has one consolation. Sanderman cut his child support payments in half, ordering the biological dad to pay the other half.

Yet, if Dawn was greedy, Justin was wilfully blind. Prior to the marriage, they split up a couple of times.

It was during one of these breakups that Dawn slept with her old lover and became pregnant. You'd think he would have been suspicious of the paternity of the child. Instead, he believed what he wanted to believe. Now he's paying the consequences.

The so-called in loco parentis (standing in place of a parent) doctrine is a "creature of 19th-century patriarchy," the Supreme Court observed. "It evolved during a time when it was a morally offensive notion for a man to be held responsible for another man's child."

The pendulum has now swung in the other direction. Men, hand over your wallets.

Canada: Edmonton Sun

Did you know that prior to the Feminist movement, when a divorce occurred MEN retained custody of the children in our country because they could financially support them better and with all other parts being equal, that was considered the "best interest of the child"?

The Pendulum has swung in our country too and very often the man still makes more $$$. Now we charge him alimony/c.s. The amount he has to pay is based on how much he makes, so God forbid he work hard and get a raise, God forbid mamma lose her job...even if it's her own d*** fault. He has to pay, and pay, and pay. The only way a man gets custody of his child in our country now is to prove mom unfit or if mom gives child away. He is then expected to keep up a home with room for his children to visit him in (ex:additional bedrooms and comforts), pay for christmas, Birthdays, extra-curricular activities. All this on much less income.

When a man works two jobs to support his family, he is considered a good provider and good father. When a man has to work two jobs to pay c.s. and keep a roof over his head he forfeits visitation.

It's Great to be a woman in our country. However we are kicking Dad out of our children's lives. When you treat him like he's only good for his $$$, don't complain when he acts that way.

Actually Happy they want a 50 50 custody thing now with parents of children. I agree that it is sad that a father when he has to work 2 jobs to pay his cs and keep a roof over his head. What I think is sad though (and I'm in a state that it's shared cost) when a man works and the woman works but to short the cs lies and hides and you end up paying thousands of dollars to prove that he has lied. My stbxh learned real quick that (when he tried to lie) that I knew what he made and he also figure out what "I" was giving up in what I had coming from our marriage for him to be able to spend as much time with his kids as my self. He choose not too and see them when he feels like it. Don't get me wrong he loves them but they are not his 1st priority. Xmm was warned when he tried to tell me he only made 5 grand in one year not to pull that on his daughter and he ended up loosing too. It's one thing if you don't have it, but when you purpsosly hide it to keep it from your flesh and blood for whatever reason that is truely sad and corrupt. I pay more for my child than he does.......She lives with me so there is no way of getting around that and it's my choice to spend what I spend on her. The same with all my kids. When this first began and I was off work from surgery (c-section) I took from my other children to provide for her and it took 4 grand to find him (same city) to get a DNA test, then I won't even tell you what it took to get him to do what he should be doing.........I could have had his business lic. taken away after 30 days, but what good would that have been if he's not working? I'm just saying it goes both ways. I think some states are fairer than others. My state is a fair state. There is a cap and a shared cost here.

Mary, you are merely proving my point. 50/50 and mom still retains primary custody and still recieves c.s. If it's 50/50, then NO c.s. should be paid by either parent.

Although, I can see being upset about lying so drastically about his income, but please....worried about EVERY hidden asset? You're not treating him like a walking wallet?