Today, we paid our final CS payment!!! It is over. Done. Complete!!! We put the full amount into the transfer account at the bank. The amount gets automatically deposited to OW account each month. We are now finished! All interest that accumulates will be mailed back to us in October!!!

It now seems to have flown by. We are simply elated. We are now scanning tons of brochures for our fab trip to celebrate. Hmmm, what beach to see......what should I pack......condo or sea side hotel.....hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Lots of things happening here. OW is now aware that she has mere months left of cs and is nervous about her house payment!! She called our attorney about him dropping the lein against her home, as she is refinancing. He told her "No". She begged, pleaded then blasted him. I guess she thinks that her actions should have no consequences. She said that us "dropping" child support will make it hard for her to live in her house. We didn't drop child support, we completed our obligation.

These years flew by. I can honestly tell you that life goes on, and it goes fast! I have had wonderful years with my beautiful children, through thick and thin we have thrived. We have had wonderful vacations, watched our children grow, watched them excel at some things and bomb at others. We have had a full and enriching life. We have done all the things a family does, despite having an child support payment due each month. It was just a detail. It did not define us, nor did it rule our lives. It was a bill to be paid. There was nothing we could do about it, so we did what we could for OUR FAMILY and moved on.

We have years of great holiday memories with extended families, we love our childrens friends as if they were our own...we have been to rainy football games, hot days at the soccer fields, cold days at the ski hill, etc. We have enjoyed it all. Sure, it was tough in the early days, when I was livid and the ow was doing her standard ow manipulations. But with firm and sound legal advice we put her in her place. She may be the mother of the oc, but they not part of our lives, and never would be.

We moved on past the mistake of ow/oc and life goes on. Life is far to short to allow this to control you. CHOSE what you want out of life and go for it. Want contact? Then get it the way that works best for you. Want No contact? GO FOR IT. Do what YOU want/need to thrive. This is your one and only life. LIVE IT YOUR OWN WAY. You can and will survive and thrive!!!

My husband and I are simply thrilled at the thought of vegging on a beach, sorta like a victory party!!! We faced the worse and made it. We are stonger for all the hell we went through. He has long ago, proven his heartfelt shame and pain for the harm his actions caused THIS family. He has proven in words and actions that we came first and foremost in his heart. WE as a couple are fine, deeply in love and looking forward to the rest of our lives.

DO NOT LET THIS DEFINE WHO YOU ARE. YOU CHOSE WHAT YOU WILL OR WILL NOT ACCEPT INTO YOUR LIFE.

We CHOSE no contact as what was best for our family. We CHOSE to allow our children to grow up in peace and without the standard OW drama. We CHOSE not to have oc around, as we felt it was to much to ask of me, and our children. We have never regretted that decision once. And quite honestly, after reading online the behaviors and thoughs of many ow, I am even a more stronger advocate for no contact. But that is MY CHOICE. May not be what you need.

Our children are loved and treasured, and my houseguest is as loved as one of my very own! I can't believe how quickly they have grown up! I am so very thankfull that we made the choices we did. While they are aware of oc, he is an abstract embarrassment to them. They were not subjected to the humiliation of having to explain the part time visitor....and that was OUR CHOICE to do so.

So my dear sweet hurting friends. Take note. YOUR LIFE WILL GO ON. YOU WILL BE HAPPY. YOU CAN THRIVE NO MATTER WHAT YOU CHOSE TO DO.

So



So to each of you in the throws of anguish at all the what ifs, and what should's.....take a deep breath and settle down. This is going to be a journey, no matter what you chose or what happens. So, slow down and really think things out....with your HEAD. Do not let emotions control your decisions. Do only what you WANT and CHOSE for you.

Have great day!!!!!! I sure am!!!!!!

Great Job <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I'm so happy for your family, and I can't wait till I can say what you have about ow/oc. I know it is new for me and my family and we will survive this, but I appreciate the encouragement.

Glad things are good Lynn <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Is the OC 18 now? Is that why your done with child support?

OC will be 18 this fall!!!!!!!!!!!

We put the amount needed into the transfer account, complete, done, finished, over, out!

I swear, if that first year somebody told me that I would have lived to actually even forget about oc I would have told them they were crazy. However, I never think about oc. Sure, I come here and you know what, it doesn't even phase me personally. OC is a moot point. I am totally indifferent to it.

I do get defensive and protective of the hurting betrayed and will go word for word with any ow or their supporters, cause they can't hurt me. But personally, I am so over the whole oc deal. I promise you all, that day will come.

I am so dang exicted to be done with child support!!!! It's like getting a raise! First thing we are going to do is celebrate with a relaxing trip!!!

Wonderful News Lynn!

You have been an inspiration to all of us...
You and your beautiful H can relax and enjoy that well deserve vacation!
Congratulations!!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> wiz

***note to CLO****

Marriage Builders = supporting those recovering and rebuilding their marriages.

3rd attempt to ask you in a nice polite manner..

Any questions, email me..

JustUss

<small>[ January 31, 2005, 10:54 PM: Message edited by: Justuss ]</small>

And what do you suggest she and her husband do, CLO? Volunteer to give extra money to OW/OC? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Their obligation is done, and OC is a stranger to their family. What the heck do you want them to do?!

<small>[ January 31, 2005, 10:56 PM: Message edited by: Justuss ]</small>

Congratulations Lynn!!

How very inspirational. God knows, I needed it today. Thank You! My heartfelt best wishes to you and your family.

woohoo! wohoo! happy dance, happy dance.

I say go to somepalce WARM!

Way to inspire, encourage & remind all of us that it DOES end, & HAPPILY EVER AFTER!!!!!!!!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I know you and your family is glad it is behind you. Congrats!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> Sunny D

Congrats LynnG!!!
Wishing you the best in all you do!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Have one on me while basking in the sun!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />


JT <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Go Lynn...!!!!!!!!

I am sooo excited for you! You made it! You lived and learned and loved as you say!! NOW live a little BETTER! WOO HOO!

I have no clue what CLO said cause I missed her, surely, inspirational and educational post.. but I have an idea-- Lynn, why not send some of those extra CS payments to CLO - she could then gloat even more to wives here who are struggling financially- and try to pour more salt in wounds with regard to how much time and money she gets due to xmm and his wife!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

We are planning on Belize!!!!!!!!!! AWESOME!!

I swear, it has gone by so fast. If I have learned anything these last 18 years is that life really does fly by. SO GO AND LIVE LAUGH AND LOVE!!!! No matter what your choices are pertaining to the oc, go and live your life that works best for you.

As for CLO, I feel sorry for her. She has to come to this site to try and hurt BW's since she is such a sad and bitter soul! Her poor children, having a seething cauldron of anger raising them!!! Oh, and for CLO's BW....Imagine the pity that BW has for her husband, having gotten entangled with a being as cold and calculating and heartless as CLO. I would bet that marraige is healed up just fine and they don't waste a minute of thought on CLO/OC. They are living their lives! The fact that CLO is so full of bitter vile is testament to her state of happiness and contentment!!! She speaks volumes of what the mindset of MANY ow are. Heartless. Cold. Calculating. Manipulative. Game Players. She is one to pity. I feel sorry for her.

Hello LynnG,

Congratulations to the completion of your CS! Hope u have a wonderful time in Belize!

I do have one question that has been puzzling me. I do not know how far NC goes, but the OC will be 18 years old soon. What if she wants to know her father, or seek him out? By law ( or NC rules set by the judge), is she (OC) not suppose to bother your husband? Just wanted some clarity. No harm intended.

Take care.

LynnG You dont know how happy I was to read your post!

Right now we are in the courts still figuring this all out and fighting tooth and nail ....its only just starting, but then I read your post WOW it seems like a life sentence in the stage I am right at this time.... but its not Thanks for reminding me this too shall end, one day.

ALL the OFPs were against his mother. (OC is a boy). It was her behavior and her stupidity that landed her with reems of paper at her feet to stay away from us, and that has her facing legal fees, etc. SHE was the one who disregarded the law, assumed that she was above it, etc.

He, we have no problem with. He is just another innocent victim of two selfish people. Just as my children are innocent of any wrongdoing as far as the affair went. In HIS home, his feelings and well being came first, in our home OUR childrens well being and feelings came first.

Should he seek out my husband, so be it. That is his choice to do so. He can ask anything he wants and he will be told the truth. How his mother tried blackmail, harrassmsent, etc. and how we came to the decision of no contact. I'm sure the picture would be quite different from what he has probably been told.

So, no, we have no legal protection from the oc calling or getting in touch.

Thanks LynnG! I was thinking that was probably the case....OW being OW.....Harrassing, leaving u no choice but to arrange NC. It is ashame that OW don't realize that they are not entitled to anything,except for CS, but they allow themselves to vision this fantasy of MM being a family with them, and they get livid, evil, and deranged when they realize that it will never, ever come to pass. Then they want to hurt BW, MM, and his family...but they fail to realize that they are hurting OC the most. Oh well, it is what it is. Life is what u make it.

Take care.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LynnG:
<strong> I would bet that marraige is healed up just fine and they don't waste a minute of thought on CLO/OC. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lynn,
You may need to take that crystal ball in for a tune up. It's good that you hope for the best though and look for the positive, the "bright side" of life if you will.
I do hope they can work things out because I know he wants his family to survive this.
Unfortunately she's been hopitalized three times for mental illness, and she continues to kick him out of the home every few months. (Gee, that's how the A started to begin with). From what I understand, he's in another A right now and his W has no clue.
Maybe I should send her the link to MB, huh?

Sorry for the threadjack, Lynn.

It truly is great that you no longer have CS to pay. CS is NOT your responsibility, it's your H's and it's a shame that it takes away from you and your children.

For the sake of OC and your H, I hope someday they can meet and get to know each other. It would probably be very therapeutic for both of them.

Exactly....life is what you make it!!!

You know, what I see is that many ow fail to see that there are two sides to this issue. That while they want the father to be there for the child, as it is best for that child, they totally forget the effect it will have on the wife and the children he already has. They assume that it is ok for those children to be screwed up, hurt, etc., and have no problem with that. They feel that those children will learn to "get over it" or "accept it" that no matter what, they should just deal with it, and if not, it "must be the fault of the BW" Totally ignoring the issue at heart....and that is that the BW and her children should not be expected to alter their own wishes and dreams to suit anyone. But many ow think just that.

Then we see those who have families who are willing to have contact and what do they do? They whine about the BW, they try to control everything as if the father has no rights to that child. Basically, no matter what you do, they are going to find fault. As if suddenly, this is all YOUR FAULT or YOUR PROBLEM to fix. It just never dawns on them that the oc is just one of many who gets to have a piece of the hurt pie. They don't respect, nor care at all, about the wife and her children and how they feel.

The oc needs/wishes do not supercede the needs/wishes of the wife or her children. Everyone gets hurt. The ow just don't see it that way. All they worry about is themselves, cause if it truly was the oc, then there wouldn't be so many stupid, drama filled, almost by the number problems with visitation. You can almost set a watch by the antics the ow will pull. Same as with no contact. If having an active participating father was so important to them, then why even have a child with a married man?

Bottom line, two sides. In our case, the ow wanted contact with husband and his family. She couldn't grasp the fact that they didn't. She didn't quite grasp that the family didn't like what had happened, and decided to protect and preserve the family. Just as our children had pain and upset over the oc, so to will the oc have pain and upset. It is a sad result of two selfish people.

Thank you Lynn, you couldn't have worded it better. I find it amusing that ow believe cs is the right of the child and that seeking cs is their solemn duty to their child and making daddy own up to his responsibility is noble. But it's only his responsibility and her duty as a mother when h ends his relationship with her.

If the A is in full swing, WOW ow doesn't need his money. It's okay with her to share her man with an unsuspecting bw. It's okay to keep the paternity of her child a secret, like her child is something shameful, just to keep her lover. It's okay for mm to be a part time dad, to not be able to be with his child on holidays because he has family obligations. It's also okay that her child never knows his/her siblings. Yet when the A is over then the exmm and bw are evil for not treating her child as an equal even though she herself never has.

Bw's are bitter nasty women because we refuse to share our man, because we will put our family first and if that means nc, then so be it. Because we don't particlarly savor the idea that cs takes away from our children to give to hers. Maybe we are just not willing to put up with as much as they are.

AMEN - Lynn & Happy

Lynn,
I have mixed emotions on this.
While I can see your happy your cs pyments are done and am glad for that.
More importantly I feel for the boy(oc)who has never known the love of his father, or siblings, and possilbly a wonderfulstep mom, he is the one who has lost the most and I don't mean financaly,weather it was because of xow is mute now.
I hope he does seek out your husband, and they develope a relationship w/him and possibly all of you. It's never too late.
Also, if the boy decides to go to colledge who is responsible for that?
I know I love and OUR(H&I's) children but even though our visitation w/oc has only recently begun I love him too and pray things continue to go well for us.

YEAH!!! YIPPY!!!

Congratulations!! I'm thrilled to see some good news! OW house is her concern and it was her doing that put her house in danger! OW made the mess and Lynn made her lick it up! Good for you and your family that your a strong woman!

Enjoy that vacation and have a toast to the OW.

I'm happy for your Lynn. Have a grat time on your vacation, wherever and whenever it may be...

Looks like your original post ruffled some feathers at TOW lol..

Needtomoveon aka Marysway. Haven't heard you yet, I wonder what you really feel about this subject. Couldn't help but notice your post over there.

Sorry, sometimes I'm a bit nosy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

angels....

The ONLY thing ANY man is financially obligated to & for is CS. Not college, not cars, vacations, private school, dance lessons, karate, school lunch, JUST CS that is it.

THen it is up to ANY mother receiving CS to handle that money responsibly as she has the right to do whatever she wants w/ it & spend it however she sees fit.

I know of & have read about many women who receive CS that is WAY above what their child actually needs & they put into a college savings fund.

Any man cannot be held financially responsible to pay for a college education since that is something that is an OPTION not a RIGHT to any & every willing ADULT, not (usually) an dependent minor.

It has been attempted & the court found it UNCONSTITUTIONAL to require the father to provide for that optional education endeavor.

xoxoxoxoxox
kt

Lynn,

Congratulations for completing the financial obligations for the OC! I wish the best for you and your family and the freedom having that extra income will afford you and yours!

Both my parents and my husband's parents could have easily paid our college tuition....but they didn't. At 18 I was working fulltime and buying my own clothes. H and I both worked our way through college. My own children are doing the same. Why anyone would assume that this is a requirement or a "given" is beyond me. Further, I am convinced that having done that....I value my education more and am a stronger person.

Thank you for answering my ? about colledge I wasn't sure. sorry to TJ.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by happymom:
<strong> Thank you Lynn, you couldn't have worded it better. I find it amusing that ow believe cs is the right of the child and that seeking cs is their solemn duty to their child and making daddy own up to his responsibility is noble. But it's only his responsibility and her duty as a mother when h ends his relationship with her.

If the A is in full swing, WOW ow doesn't need his money. It's okay with her to share her man with an unsuspecting bw. It's okay to keep the paternity of her child a secret, like her child is something shameful, just to keep her lover. It's okay for mm to be a part time dad, to not be able to be with his child on holidays because he has family obligations. It's also okay that her child never knows his/her siblings. Yet when the A is over then the exmm and bw are evil for not treating her child as an equal even though she herself never has.

Bw's are bitter nasty women because we refuse to share our man, because we will put our family first and if that means nc, then so be it. Because we don't particlarly savor the idea that cs takes away from our children to give to hers. Maybe we are just not willing to put up with as much as they are. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">happymom, I disagree. If BIG IF I were still in affair with xmm having his child he would still be responsbile for that child. He is no different than my xh. My xh is still responsible for his children. Even when I first asked xh to leave and we were still trying to work it out I still expected him to help with his kids. The difference was I expected him to be there for them as well as help support them. Do I think it's noble? Who else is going to stick up for that child? It's my responsbilty to do so. That child has no one else to do so for. Just as your kids. I'm assuming your talking about your situtation? Not generalizing? Do I think it's noble???? NO, I feel it's my responsbilty. There's nothing noble about taking anyone to court to fight for there (both xmm and xow) child's rights. It's a shame. As far as a secret. I told xmm from the get go..........no more secrets if you want to see her, it's out in the open and not behind anyone's back. I won't put my child through you canceling due to family obligations as you have suggested. That is no way to treat your child. Looking at what I did for xmm was a waste of my time and love and energy. I would never put my children through that. Not right.

Any man cannot be held financially responsible to pay for a college education since that is something that is an OPTION not a RIGHT to any & every willing ADULT, not (usually) an dependent minor.


While some of these cases were overturned by their respective states, there are some states that still also allows these type of stipulations to be added if agreed upon.

There was a case not too long ago which was upheld in which the father agreed to continue to pay child support while his children went to college. However, he expected it to stop when they obtained undergrad degrees. When the daughter wanted to pursue a graduate degree, the mom went to court to make her ex to start his payments again. The judge ruled that since the agreement didn't specifically state that he was ONLY responsible for their undergrad education, he would uphold the original agreement and he had to start paying yet again. As long as they are pursing degrees, he is responsible for paying support.

By statute, court-ordered child support in New Hampshire ends when a child turns 18 or finishes high school, whichever is later, unless a court extends it. The law in most other states is similar. But data compiled by the National Conference of State Legislatures (1999, updated October, 2002) indicate seven states extend support to age 21 or beyond by statute, in some cases conditioned on continued educational enrollment. In Massachusetts, for example, child support may continue to age 23 for a child attending college who is principally dependent on parents for support.

Just remember all states are different!!!

<small>[ February 04, 2005, 12:46 PM: Message edited by: Stormyweather ]</small>

See, that was because the man originally AGREED to it.

It was not just forced upon him out of the blue.

But how lame.....here a man is FORCED to pay for his grown & supposedly 'adult' daughter's 'higher education'? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

More proof of the MESSED up CS system.....right along those men forced to continue to pay for children that have been DNA proven NOT thiers! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

KT, I will agree that the CS system in general needs to be overhauled and streamlined so that all states follow the same guidelines. It is ridiculous that even the basic guidelines for each and every state differs which causes confusion and conflict in so many of these cases.

It is also my personal belief that those men who are proven not to be the fathers should have some relief from child support plus recourse to sue for fraud if it can be proven that the woman knew there was a chance that he wasn't the father and never mentioned it.

I agree w/ you Stormy Weather about the women being held accountable if they knew there was a possiblity the child might not be the man's and he's been paying support.

I can't help but wnoder why the XOW in our case is satisfied w/ not having a father's name on the OC's birth certificate. To me it would be a matter of pride. I can not imagine leaving the place blank, and believe I would do everything I could for my child's father to be listed on the BC. Unless of course the dad was a safety issue, etc...

As far as the college issue goes, I have a Bachelor's degree and a Master's degree. My parents did not pay for either one. I worked my tail off to get them, and I'm still paying for my Bachelor's. If the parents agree to pay for them, I can understand it. I would like to help my children pay for their school if I can so they don't start off in debt like I did. However, if that's not financially possible, they can get loans just like I did. Ecspecially for Grad. school. You already have a bachelors and should be able to make a decent salary, and go to school at night. As a matter of fact, that's what I did. I got my Bachelor's, and got a full time job. I went to school at night for my Master's and paid cash for my tuition that time so as to not add to my student loans. It's tough, but not impossible.

I just don't understand why ow do not extend any courtesy to the children of the marriage. They yammer about how we "miss out" knowing the oc.....ah...... no. There are children everywhere, down the street, in the schools, shops, etc. I am positive to their families, they are wonderfull. But I don't think my life is less cause I don't know each and everyone of them. I have 4 living here and they keep me quite busy as it is. Yet they assume that their child is the only wonderful one. Well, they are the ones "missing out" on knowing my children! I happen to think that my kids are fab!! But I certainly don't think that complete strangers are missing out on knowing my kids....heck we have distant relatives who don't know my kids. I better call them and ask them how they sleep at night not knowing my kids. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I also love the "she only blames ow/oc..."" blah blah blah. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> How simple minded, stupid and wrong. I have never read,heard or seen any wife excuse her husbands affair. I swear I have never heard a wife say her "...poor husband tripped and fell into the ow...." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Usually the wife is hurt to her core and then livid with rage. Just a banal, standard issue ow statement! Lord how (some) ow love to play the victim!!!! Oh, well, consider the source!!!!


Angel, if the oc ever wants to speak to my husband,fine. BUT, what happens after will be soley up to my children. If they don't want him around, he wont be. If he has questions he will get answers, we have all the documents and proof to back up our side. He will learn that there were two sides to this and that while he may love her (as he should) that does not make her antics right or just. As far as him having any type of familial relationship with this family? I don't see that for a long long time, if ever. My children, over the years have had to endure tirades and learn of situations, due to ow antics. They are, and have a right to be extremely disgusted by everything. They also love their father very much, and me. I am sure that they do not want to share him, or have any upheaval of their home life. They are aware that the obligation of child support are over and they too see it as a ending. They realize that the family will not be forced to deal with stupid situations brought on by ow. I doubt very much that they will suddenly want to be the Brady Bunch and play happy family. It is not my childrens responsiblity to soothe any of his hurt, just as it is not his responsibility to ease theirs. My husband can explain to him whatever he wants to know, but my children will not be forced by anyone (including thier father) to do anything about this situation if they don't want to. If and when they meet it will not be cause he wants to meet them, it will only be if they agree to. Who knows, if he would even want to meet them. Personally, the boy is 17 years old. I doubt that he is spending his time obsessing about any of these details anyway. I am sure he is busy with school and friends himself. I am sure he has figured out all on his own why there was not contact.

The main thrust of this message is that time goes by fast, life is short, so live it the way you choose. Quit wasting time and energy on a situation that you can't change. Deal with it the way YOU want to and move on. Stand up for what you want and then let it go. Life has so much coming at you. And (less the ow types think otherwise, being simple minded and all....), why waste your time being down. Bad things happen too. People get sick, some die, some have car accidents, etc. Why waste today, a perfectly good day letting some little situation wreck it? Save your energy for the big stuff. Save it for when your daughter takes your car and along with her friends gets into an accident.....yes that happened to us. You want to talk heartbreak and fear....learning that was far far more traumatic then having to pay child support. Or how about when the family dog has to be put to sleep? That hurts to the core. So when I say the oc is just a detail, I mean it. Having an oc in your life (contact or not) is not life threatening, it can't kill you. Just chose what you want, and get moving and go live your life. You don't have to sit in a corner and cry for the next 20-30-40-50-60 years about this. Heck no. Deal with it and move on!!! If your ow is upset, who care? HER FEELINGS DON'T MATTER NOR DO THEY COUNT. If you are going for contact, remember your husband has just as much right to his child as she does. Don't let her walk on your family, she has no right to do so. If you don't want contact, don't. It is none of her business why you do or don't anyway. That is a decision made within your marriage, for your family. Just make a decision, get LEGAL ADVICE, work out the details and go and live your life! And go enjoy your family, let your husband seduce you and let him proove to you how sorry he is for what he has done to you. Enjoy holidays and birthdays and vacations. Enjoy family nights at the movies or having picnics in your home in the dead of winter....HAVE FUN. If he proves worthy, forgive him and love again. You will learn to trust again. Then someday, you will meet or learn of some woman, in the same situation you are in right now. You will be able to reach out to her and tell her that you understand how hurt she is. How scared she is. You will be able to support her through it. You will remember the fear and the pain and the anger. But you will also remember that life went on. That you and your husband had a rough spot, worked it out. You will tell her that you are happy with your life and that there is a future! There is life after all of this. Good and bad things happen all the time. So deal with this situation and move past it. Otherwise you are giving away perfectly good days! I remember I did that. I remember wasting time too. I had a dear friend kick me in the pants and shove me back to living. I will forever love her for her support and kindness, heck even for her screaming at me to get up and go shopping. I adore her!!

So, dear sweet hurting cyber friends, don't let this destroy you. Stand up. Be strong. Fix your hair, makeup, square up your shoulders and get living!!!! Cause someday this will just be something that happened.

Have a great weekend!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ktbunch:
<strong> See, that was because the man originally AGREED to it.

It was not just forced upon him out of the blue.

But how lame.....here a man is FORCED to pay for his grown & supposedly 'adult' daughter's 'higher education'? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

More proof of the MESSED up CS system.....right along those men forced to continue to pay for children that have been DNA proven NOT thiers! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe just maybe.........a father is able to and wants to help his child better educate himself and the option is there for him/her??? NAW your right KT, it's lame <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Didn't KT say that the courts forced him to pay for more? I was understanding it to be that he said no more.

I don't even owe my kids a college education. I will help, but they are ultimately responsible for the bill. Helping is not guaranteed. It comes with stipulations.

Made him pay for more what? They use to pay more cs until they got credit for the children or something like that....there is a word for it. I don't remember what it is.......but we are talking about child education. And if you read my comment it said if the father could afford it and wanted to............

{Blackrio's note: I thought this sort of tied in to our discussion since many of us think the CS system needs to be fixed. Looks like that is also true in Canada.}

Ruling a big red flag for men

By MINDELLE JACOBS

If men knew more about family law, they'd run screaming from single mothers prowling for relationships and father figures for their children.

Any lawyer will tell you that the nature of your relationship with a child - not biology - determines whether you're on the hook for child support.

Sperm has nothing to do with it, the Supreme Court of Canada ruled a few years ago.

And that's unfortunate for Justin Sumner, who married a woman thinking he'd fathered her daughter and is now stuck paying child support even though a DNA test proved he's not the dad.

Little Rhylee was born in August 2001, Justin and Dawn were married a year later and the couple separated about a year after that. They are now divorced.

As Court of Queen's Bench Justice Sterling Sanderman put it in his recent ruling: "Marriages are entered into casually and dissolved whimsically."

But your obligations to stepchildren continue, deadbeat biological dads notwithstanding.

One way men can possibly protect themselves from gold-digging single moms is to draw up a co-habitation agreement stating they have no intention of taking on a parental role, says Edmonton family lawyer Michelle Mackay.

"It may stand up in court. It may not," she says, adding the Supreme Court's 1999 decision placed the interests of the child first.

The high court was quite clear on that point. "Once a person is found to stand in the place of a parent, that relationship cannot be unilaterally withdrawn by the adult," the court stated.

It noted that sometimes men, and occasionally women, use kids as pawns to further relationships and then once the couple splits up, the children are abandoned.

"This is not to be encouraged," the court said, quoting a previous ruling. "If relationships are more difficult for a person to extricate him- or herself from then, perhaps, more children will be spared the trauma of rejection, bruised self-image and loss of financial support."

A stepdad being sued for child support can also try to get a judge to go after the biological father, says Mackay.

In fact, in the Sumner case, Sanderman ripped into Dawn, 33, for pursuing Justin for child support instead of the man who actually fathered her children because Justin had more money.

Dawn considered her previous lover, who also fathered her older child, as no more than "a surrogate donor," noted Sanderman.

"This is a matter that is merely about money," he added.

The case is no surprise to the men who have already been ordered to support other men's kids.

But it should be a red flag to other men contemplating moving in with single moms. Relationships rarely last long these days. Obligations, however, are not so easily shrugged off.

Justin has one consolation. Sanderman cut his child support payments in half, ordering the biological dad to pay the other half.

Yet, if Dawn was greedy, Justin was wilfully blind. Prior to the marriage, they split up a couple of times.

It was during one of these breakups that Dawn slept with her old lover and became pregnant. You'd think he would have been suspicious of the paternity of the child. Instead, he believed what he wanted to believe. Now he's paying the consequences.

The so-called in loco parentis (standing in place of a parent) doctrine is a "creature of 19th-century patriarchy," the Supreme Court observed. "It evolved during a time when it was a morally offensive notion for a man to be held responsible for another man's child."

The pendulum has now swung in the other direction. Men, hand over your wallets.

Canada: Edmonton Sun

Did you know that prior to the Feminist movement, when a divorce occurred MEN retained custody of the children in our country because they could financially support them better and with all other parts being equal, that was considered the "best interest of the child"?

The Pendulum has swung in our country too and very often the man still makes more $$$. Now we charge him alimony/c.s. The amount he has to pay is based on how much he makes, so God forbid he work hard and get a raise, God forbid mamma lose her job...even if it's her own d*** fault. He has to pay, and pay, and pay. The only way a man gets custody of his child in our country now is to prove mom unfit or if mom gives child away. He is then expected to keep up a home with room for his children to visit him in (ex:additional bedrooms and comforts), pay for christmas, Birthdays, extra-curricular activities. All this on much less income.

When a man works two jobs to support his family, he is considered a good provider and good father. When a man has to work two jobs to pay c.s. and keep a roof over his head he forfeits visitation.

It's Great to be a woman in our country. However we are kicking Dad out of our children's lives. When you treat him like he's only good for his $$$, don't complain when he acts that way.

Actually Happy they want a 50 50 custody thing now with parents of children. I agree that it is sad that a father when he has to work 2 jobs to pay his cs and keep a roof over his head. What I think is sad though (and I'm in a state that it's shared cost) when a man works and the woman works but to short the cs lies and hides and you end up paying thousands of dollars to prove that he has lied. My stbxh learned real quick that (when he tried to lie) that I knew what he made and he also figure out what "I" was giving up in what I had coming from our marriage for him to be able to spend as much time with his kids as my self. He choose not too and see them when he feels like it. Don't get me wrong he loves them but they are not his 1st priority. Xmm was warned when he tried to tell me he only made 5 grand in one year not to pull that on his daughter and he ended up loosing too. It's one thing if you don't have it, but when you purpsosly hide it to keep it from your flesh and blood for whatever reason that is truely sad and corrupt. I pay more for my child than he does.......She lives with me so there is no way of getting around that and it's my choice to spend what I spend on her. The same with all my kids. When this first began and I was off work from surgery (c-section) I took from my other children to provide for her and it took 4 grand to find him (same city) to get a DNA test, then I won't even tell you what it took to get him to do what he should be doing.........I could have had his business lic. taken away after 30 days, but what good would that have been if he's not working? I'm just saying it goes both ways. I think some states are fairer than others. My state is a fair state. There is a cap and a shared cost here.

Mary, you are merely proving my point. 50/50 and mom still retains primary custody and still recieves c.s. If it's 50/50, then NO c.s. should be paid by either parent.

Although, I can see being upset about lying so drastically about his income, but please....worried about EVERY hidden asset? You're not treating him like a walking wallet?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by happymom:
<strong> Mary, you are merely proving my point. 50/50 and mom still retains primary custody and still recieves c.s. If it's 50/50, then NO c.s. should be paid by either parent.

Although, I can see being upset about lying so drastically about his income, but please....worried about EVERY hidden asset? You're not treating him like a walking wallet? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">uh, that was uncalled for...........let's put it in money terms happy........let's say a difference of 15000.00 a month. Not 1500.00. That is not screwing me, that is screwing one of my children. I think if you put yourself in someone else's shoes you would not have made that comment. As far as the 50 50 no cs how is that fair? IF a man makes a lot more than he still needs to help out.....Now if he has one child and she has another and they both are about the same in income and expenses then it should just be even steven. A shared cost of living means just that. A shared cost of living. In my state there is a cap. Where someone may get over 2000.00 a month for one child it's not so here. It's capped so the other party can NOT take advantage of the system. A walking wallet?????????? That is pretty darn funny......., even while with him........I was never a kept woman. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

One more edit........primary custody is not a given in this day and age unless agree with upon both parties. The courts like Joint custody now a days. So primary means just that. Kids cost money happymom and I'm assuming that if you have kids that you do........that you would expect your husband to pay you cs and probally alimony seeing your married if you were to divorce? Why is it so bad for an ow to ask? And again why the comment before you knew the details above?

<small>[ February 05, 2005, 04:22 PM: Message edited by: needtomoveon ]</small>

stormyweather/blackrio:

note taken........something similar just happened in CA recently as well.

So a woman lies or somehow decieves a man into believing a child is his & they get together........well, the man does benefit too..FREE SEX, for the time being.

When the relationship is over....the TAB is due, in monthly installments for about 18 years minus how old the child currently is.

So basically we women have the right to prostitute ourselves out legally by calling it CS, because NOTHING in this world is EVER free!
***************************
***************************
OK so the pendelum is SWUNG to the other end & it does not look like it will be changing anytime soon, no matter HOW many father's rights groups there are.

So OUR responsiblity as PARENTS is to change what we can.........which is our SON'S attitudes towards sex & women.

Here's a starter lesson:
Do NOT have sex w/ ANY woman who is NOT your WIFE, EVER.
If you THINK you want sex w/ a woman who you are NOT married too....step closer to mama so I can SLAP you upside your head!
IF you do not want a child---make DAMN sure you do NOT have sex, becuase obviously accidents can & WILL happen.
IF you THINK you want sex but not children....step closer to mama so I can SLAP you upside your head!
If you do have children & decide you no longer want your marriage......step closer to mama so I can SLAP you upside your head! It is more cost effective to STAY married.
Also if you decide that you will not listen to your mama's good sense, make DANG sure (again) that you can support 2 separate households; yours & your kids because that is what you will be financially responsible for.

OR how 'bout this: every time junior even thinks of sex, we slap him upside his head...........then he will have pain & negative feelings associated w/ sex & will NEVER want to have sex EVER! LOL

That is the only sure-fire, fool-proof way for him to protect himself.

That's my vote! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Don't worry, our sons will thank us for this SEX EDUCATION we give them when they see ALL thier friends in the poor house not being allowed to see their kids. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />


feeling awnry,
kt

KT, I've seen pictures of you and your family, but everytime you mentioned slap jr upside the head it reminds me of that show "my wife and kids" and they are always slapping Jr., upside the head. LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> KT that is exactly how I feel about it. You are too funny....still laughing.

Kt,

Being the mom of two sons, I find the "step closer to mama...." lines to be hilarious. And as one who's older son (who was 8 at the time) stole almost $200 last year from my purse to give to female classmates, I would have to add something like

"If you feel the need to just give good money away to the opposite sex, step closer to mama so I can slap you upside the head" or maybe a Bernie Mac "I'll beat ya to the white meat shows" type of hits.

<small>[ February 05, 2005, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: Stormyweather ]</small>

Mary, I wasn't trying to bait you.

IMO, what you are talking about is "quality" of life or a specific "standard" of living. One parent should not be expected to provide for their child to enjoy a higher standard of living...in another home. c.s. should be to offset the expenses of the child's necessities that the parent the child lives with has to pay. Necessities are food, clothes, and shelter. In joint custody, each parent has the child for roughly an equal amount of time and pays for that child's necessities while in their care. In that situation, if one parent can't pay their own bills it isn't the other parents problem.

I have been in those shoes. I was a single mom with 3 kids, divorced, when I put myself through college. My ex and I do have joint custody. He makes tons more money then I do. He doesn't owe me a dime. He pays the court minimum cs and that goes into the childrens savings accts which he adds to regularly.

SW/BR:
Well, @ least he's fitting in w/ the 'program'---giving his $$$$$$$$ away to females.....

I'm wondering what he got in return? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Maybe you should give him a lesson on INFLATION becuase if he's paying out $200 in 2nd/3rd grade.......imagine what a girl will cost him in the future? LOL


xoxox
kt

<small>[ February 05, 2005, 04:41 PM: Message edited by: ktbunch ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by happymom:
<strong> Mary, I wasn't trying to bait you.

IMO, what you are talking about is "quality" of life or a specific "standard" of living. One parent should not be expected to provide for their child to enjoy a higher standard of living...in another home. c.s. should be to offset the expenses of the child's necessities that the parent the child lives with has to pay. Necessities are food, clothes, and shelter. In joint custody, each parent has the child for roughly an equal amount of time and pays for that child's necessities while in their care. In that situation, if one parent can't pay their own bills it isn't the other parents problem.

I have been in those shoes. I was a single mom with 3 kids, divorced, when I put myself through college. My ex and I do have joint custody. He makes tons more money then I do. He doesn't owe me a dime. He pays the court minimum cs and that goes into the childrens savings accts which he adds to regularly. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't expect his quality of life...I expect the state's guidlines for his accurate income. You and your ex probally came to an agreement and all. It's not the same thing. He did not purposly try to screw your kids/his kids right? I don't want his lifestyle as mine is fine. I just want what is do my daughter that is fair and share (which after many court dates and investagations and catching him in every lie) I got it. But what type of mother would I have been to say oh xmm, you know that you make more than 5 grand a year..........if you want to give her 60.00 a month and not fulfill her needs as YOU PROMISEd you'd do that is okay.....go and be happy. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> CS is not nogotable........alminoy and other things are.

<small>[ February 05, 2005, 05:12 PM: Message edited by: needtomoveon ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ktbunch:
<strong>

........well, the man does benefit too..FREE SEX, for the time being.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, a woman's worth is only sex?

A woman can't possibly offer anything else to a man when in a relationship? The man's only gain in a relationship is sex?

Sorry KT, this statement is absurd.

NTMO-

You misunderstood me. Completely my fault. Let me try again. I do not believe c.s. should be based on income.

I think that if the average rent in you area is $600.00 a month for 2 brs. $300.00 is your share and $300.00 pays for the child. Each parent responsible for $150.00. If you choose to live in a house with a $1500.00 a month mortgage, not the other parents responsibility. Each parent should be responsible for 1/2 food, shelter,clothing, and medical under the same guidelines. Anything else provided for the child is the parent's individual choice to do so.

As cs is worked out now it is dependent on the parent's income levels. This affords lifestyle, which is not an obligation of any parent. This current method also allows certain irreputable people to abuse the system. A good example was in my recent hosital stay a young mother was in the nursery after just having given birth to her fourth son. She was complaining that she would have to go through social services to get c.s. yet again, as her other 3 children all have different dads. This young woman is recieving roughly 25% of 4 different men's income. She is being paid the equivalent of a full-time job for doing nothing more then .....well, scr*wing around. If the average cs payment is between $500.00-$750.00 a month, I wastd my time and money in college. (I have 6 kids)


It just makes more sense to calculate child support based on what it actually takes to raise a child in your area then to base it on the parents income.

CLO:
MY point was about what the MAN would be getting out of it & what he is PAYING for in the end.

DO you think people choose to SHACK UP for good conversation? LOL (maybe for the housekeeping?LOL)

Because this man was gonna have to pay for a child that was NOT even his BECAUSE he married & lived w/ that woman. SO...that is what he got in return.......SEX!(albeit very EXPENSIVE sex) (but then again....maybe it was worth her cooking?)


xoxoxox
kt

<small>[ February 05, 2005, 06:10 PM: Message edited by: ktbunch ]</small>

I'm saying that you can't reduce their relationship to only sex.

I have some wonderful ex's with some hot, hot sex but what they gave me intellectually, emotionally and spiritually greatly exceeded any benefit that sex could give.

CLO- KT is referring to Canadian cs laws....jeesh <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Happy,
I know, but in her post, she made a statement that I, as a woman, felt was demeaning a woman's worth to a man. That a man can only gain "sex" from a woman and nothing more.

Maybe you should give him a lesson on INFLATION becuase if he's paying out $200 in 2nd/3rd grade.......imagine what a girl will cost him in the future? LOL

My twenty five years brother told me my son was probably smart in doing this. He said my son was placing "it" on layaway but locking in today's prices. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I have come to realize that some men are sometimes really jaded on this subject.

Sorry CLO I thought you were taking it the wrong way.

I think all people are treated the way they allow themselves to be.

IF the relationships are SO meaningful, deep, intellectually stimulating & satisfying---they would have stayed married.

And I was not referring to women but THAT women.

Although, ANY woman who WILLINGLY demeans herself in this way & then behaves in this fashion, as this women, has ONLY demeaned her OWN value of herself, nothing I say has anything to do w/ that.

xoxo
kt

Child support is a given. HOWEVER, in my case (and these are not the real numbers, just an abstract example)

OW makes about $25,000 per year.

Husband makes about $100,000 a year.

I make about $100,000 a year.

We then combined companies and altered our income to:

Husband making $25,000 per year

I made 175,000 a year.

Based on the huge difference in income, why should the ow get more money in child support then she makes? What she got was adequate to shelter, clothe and care for him. IT is NOT illegal to Incorporate and to work hard. In our case the child never missed a cs payment. Not once. But we were certainly going to protect our financial futures and do everything we could legally to protect our childrens future.

Afterall, we buy insurance incase we get sick or hurt to protect our financial futures don't we? Same thing. Had we not hired laywers, it would have been easy for the courts to rubber stamp the "dad pays health insurance, cs and child care..." and then MM and his family are paying for more then their fare share. Our attorney brought up the 50/50 on the insurance. The courts agreed it was fair. Our attorney brought up the "no family members as babysitters, had to be a licensed daycare facility, open to audit" Courts agreed. She wanted us to pay her sister. Nope. Not going to happen. It may be eaiser on the courts to rubber stamp and move these through the system, but we fought it and we won many a battle. I feel that oc child support was more then adequate, especially when one considers ow income. This was afterall, an affair, not a marriage. The child is due child support, no doubt. But our standard of living, materially, was quite different from hers. We should not have to elevate her standard of living to equal ours. If she makes $2,500 a month why on earth should child support ever be anywhere near that amount? It would mean we would be paying 100% of his support.

The oc in our case had superior insurance coverage on our 50% then anyone else in her household. He had dental and was her only child to get braces. She doesn't even have dental on her other children (3 kids, 3 different fathers, and married to a man who is father to none). So from my point of view, considering her abilities, it would be unfair for us to pay 25% of his income to her. It should be 25% of the parent with the lowest wage, so that is what my husband made. Was it fair? Well, to me and my kids it certainly was. Was it cruel to oc? No. OW received her cs, as set forth by the state, all legal, on time each month. Child support is child support. It should not eleveate the standard of living for the whole family of the ow. It is to pay for 50% of the necessaties of raising a child. It is not necessary to go to Disneyworld, or to ski or go to dancing. Food, shelter, clothing, are necessary. So, based on where she lived, taxes, cost per SF of space in her neighborhood, etc. She actually received far more then it would have cost to raise him, in her lifestyle.

I think that NTMO gets irritated <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> that we did that and sees it as unfair to the oc. But, just as ow get laywers and go after every dime they can get....so too will the mm and his wife get laywers and protect every dime they can. It's the nature of the beast. Two sides. Nothing is fair to anyone in this situation. You protect yours. I will protect mine. Just as NTMO gets angry and sees it as unfair to the oc, I just don't see it that way. It would have been unfair to our family to pay one child more in one month then his mother made. Thereby taking away from my children.

Look, the whole thing is ugly, seedy, disgusting, embarrassing, frustrating, etc. So many ow want everyone to behave like adults, do what is best for the children, etc......I did behave like an adult. I hired an attorney to protect my interests, I looked out for the best interests of my children.

LynnG,

I think NTMO is irritated because her child's father makes $15,000 a month and claimed he only made $5,000 a month.

I think NTMO is irritated because the courts ordered him to pay for medical insurance months ago in which he has yet to provide.

I think NTMO is irritated because while xMM is driving a $60,000 car and his W has a $300 purse hanging off her shoulder, her D has no crib to sleep in.

I think NTMO is irritated because her CS doesn't even cover daycare, much less diapers, formula, clothing, doctors appointments, etc. all because xMM shifted his funds, just as your H did.

Correct me if I'm wrong NTMO, but that is how I read things after following your story.

Lynn of course the judge did........first of all you lied about his income and apprently SHE did not have a good attorney. Xmm tried that, and with NO help from my attorney only on my accord and investagtion found out the truth and had my attorney do the approiate paperwork and he was unable to lie lie lie anymore.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LynnG:
<strong> Child support is a given. HOWEVER, in my case (and these are not the real numbers, just an abstract example)

OW makes about $25,000 per year.

Husband makes about $100,000 a year.

I make about $100,000 a year.

We then combined companies and altered our income to:

Husband making $25,000 per year

I made 175,000 a year.

Based on the huge difference in income, why should the ow get more money in child support then she makes? What she got was adequate to shelter, clothe and care for him. IT is NOT illegal to Incorporate and to work hard. In our case the child never missed a cs payment. Not once. But we were certainly going to protect our financial futures and do everything we could legally to protect our childrens future.

Afterall, we buy insurance incase we get sick or hurt to protect our financial futures don't we? Same thing. Had we not hired laywers, it would have been easy for the courts to rubber stamp the "dad pays health insurance, cs and child care..." and then MM and his family are paying for more then their fare share. Our attorney brought up the 50/50 on the insurance. The courts agreed it was fair. Our attorney brought up the "no family members as babysitters, had to be a licensed daycare facility, open to audit" Courts agreed. She wanted us to pay her sister. Nope. Not going to happen. It may be eaiser on the courts to rubber stamp and move these through the system, but we fought it and we won many a battle. I feel that oc child support was more then adequate, especially when one considers ow income. This was afterall, an affair, not a marriage. The child is due child support, no doubt. But our standard of living, materially, was quite different from hers. We should not have to elevate her standard of living to equal ours. If she makes $2,500 a month why on earth should child support ever be anywhere near that amount? It would mean we would be paying 100% of his support.

The oc in our case had superior insurance coverage on our 50% then anyone else in her household. He had dental and was her only child to get braces. She doesn't even have dental on her other children (3 kids, 3 different fathers, and married to a man who is father to none). So from my point of view, considering her abilities, it would be unfair for us to pay 25% of his income to her. It should be 25% of the parent with the lowest wage, so that is what my husband made. Was it fair? Well, to me and my kids it certainly was. Was it cruel to oc? No. OW received her cs, as set forth by the state, all legal, on time each month. Child support is child support. It should not eleveate the standard of living for the whole family of the ow. It is to pay for 50% of the necessaties of raising a child. It is not necessary to go to Disneyworld, or to ski or go to dancing. Food, shelter, clothing, are necessary. So, based on where she lived, taxes, cost per SF of space in her neighborhood, etc. She actually received far more then it would have cost to raise him, in her lifestyle.

I think that NTMO gets irritated <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> that we did that and sees it as unfair to the oc. But, just as ow get laywers and go after every dime they can get....so too will the mm and his wife get laywers and protect every dime they can. It's the nature of the beast. Two sides. Nothing is fair to anyone in this situation. You protect yours. I will protect mine. Just as NTMO gets angry and sees it as unfair to the oc, I just don't see it that way. It would have been unfair to our family to pay one child more in one month then his mother made. Thereby taking away from my children.

Look, the whole thing is ugly, seedy, disgusting, embarrassing, frustrating, etc. So many ow want everyone to behave like adults, do what is best for the children, etc......I did behave like an adult. I hired an attorney to protect my interests, I looked out for the best interests of my children. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First of Lynn you are right that I get irriated at your boasting of how you screwed over a child. DO you have any clue how illegal what you did was? We had a segment on our NEws not 6 months ago on this and it's a felon. When I caught xmm in trying to do the same thing and we went to court the judge looked at him and said you do know what you've done is a felon......You make a living and salary and your wife makes one too. You can not change the rules when you are being sued for cs. But you know what I'd be irrated with your ow if she did try and sock it to your husband as well.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CheerfulLittleOne:
<strong> LynnG,

I think NTMO is irritated because her child's father makes $15,000 a month and claimed he only made $5,000 a month.

I think NTMO is irritated because the courts ordered him to pay for medical insurance months ago in which he has yet to provide.

I think NTMO is irritated because while xMM is driving a $60,000 car and his W has a $300 purse hanging off her shoulder, her D has no crib to sleep in.

I think NTMO is irritated because her CS doesn't even cover daycare, much less diapers, formula, clothing, doctors appointments, etc. all because xMM shifted his funds, just as your H did.

Correct me if I'm wrong NTMO, but that is how I read things after following your story. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">CLO I do need to correct you the purse is a "cheap" louie baton going for a mere 1000.00. A 300.00 purse would not have bothered me so much.

Another correction is his income....it is higher than 15 grand a month.........Dang that sex talk. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

<small>[ February 05, 2005, 09:36 PM: Message edited by: needtomoveon ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by happymom:
<strong> NTMO-

You misunderstood me. Completely my fault. Let me try again. I do not believe c.s. should be based on income.

I think that if the average rent in you area is $600.00 a month for 2 brs. $300.00 is your share and $300.00 pays for the child. Each parent responsible for $150.00. If you choose to live in a house with a $1500.00 a month mortgage, not the other parents responsibility. Each parent should be responsible for 1/2 food, shelter,clothing, and medical under the same guidelines. Anything else provided for the child is the parent's individual choice to do so.

As cs is worked out now it is dependent on the parent's income levels. This affords lifestyle, which is not an obligation of any parent. This current method also allows certain irreputable people to abuse the system. A good example was in my recent hosital stay a young mother was in the nursery after just having given birth to her fourth son. She was complaining that she would have to go through social services to get c.s. yet again, as her other 3 children all have different dads. This young woman is recieving roughly 25% of 4 different men's income. She is being paid the equivalent of a full-time job for doing nothing more then .....well, scr*wing around. If the average cs payment is between $500.00-$750.00 a month, I wastd my time and money in college. (I have 6 kids)


It just makes more sense to calculate child support based on what it actually takes to raise a child in your area then to base it on the parents income. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Happy I agree with you that some woman abuse the system. They abuse the state and I can go on. Where I work, I handle a lot of people on sec. 8 and other benifits and it's amazing. I was just talking to a assoicate that every 3 years his neice pops out a kid just to stay on the system. But you know what a lot of woman don't. I did not at all. Even when I was fighting xmm to do DNA and getting him to court and had no money from him at all to help and getting back to work I never once got assistance from any government agency. We had to do priorties on things and do without somethings to get the basic needs met and with an infant her needs have to come first. My kids lifestyle was way differnt before the baby came. I don't blame xmm for all the changes but I blame him for being a coward and trying to lie about everything to get out of paying...........so yes Lynn I get irrirated at you and feel that what you and your husband did was very wrong to that child. And yes my duaghter did without a crib for awhile till I got back on my feet......well actually some good friends sent me a new crib. Xmm told me flat out he would push me into the system and I'd be on sec 8 and getting eggs and milk etc. Well I've did it all on my own and took care of 3 kids with two jobs 2 weeks after I gave birth to her and a c-section. I was not going to let him allow me to go down without a fight. What he did was very wrong too, but I had the guts to prove him wrong and fight him on it.

NTMO- I can understand being angry if he is not paying and has not provided insurance. That I have never balked at. Actully it pisses me off cause we were never late with our cs payment. Ever.

What we did is NOT illegal. It's not like he made $100,000 one year, and then we retroactively changed our books and lied about it. We, after initial child support was set, changed how we did business. I got more involved then I had been. I along with my sister Incorporated and handled some big accounts through that. What my husband did was slow down his production. Had some lean years. It was not like we were being paid cash and stashing it in a mattress! (like my grandmother did in the old days <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ). Every dime earned in this home was properly taxed, and recorded. The fact that my career took off, and thus was able to support the family allowed him to cut back. That is all legal. My business, which is closely related to his, is mine alone. I was doing it when oc was born, and have done so since. I just became more successfull! And he became less so. Happens all the time! Look at Nick and Jessica!! (Sorry, younger daughter loves them <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) He was the star when they met, now look who is raking in the cash?

This was not done overnight. It's not like I was making $10,000 one year and $100,000 the next, and him going from $100,000 and then down to $25,000....keep in mind those are not the correct figures. This was a process.

The oc received child support that was more then enough to sustain him. Actually, it is more then I spend on my college aged daughter a month for her upkeep. There was just little incentive for my husband to work hard when he was going to lose 25% of it. There was plenty of incentive for me to work hard to assure my children had what they do. And, to ease your mind as to the legalities of it, the judge did question the balance of income and it was addressed, and understood. Husband was still making a decent enough salary to give a decent amount to oc. The figures I use here are not reality. Just numbers.

Back to your situation, I do understand your anger about him deeking out on the insurance and the cs. I don't see how that can happen. Once it is set, it is set. No way out. That is why I tell the BW here not to worry about it, cause there is no way around it. I know you hate to hear it like this, but it is a bill. Just like a mortagage, light bill, child support, gas bill, etc. You have to do it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by happymom:
<strong> NTMO-

You misunderstood me. Completely my fault. Let me try again. I do not believe c.s. should be based on income.

I think that if the average rent in you area is $600.00 a month for 2 brs. $300.00 is your share and $300.00 pays for the child. Each parent responsible for $150.00. If you choose to live in a house with a $1500.00 a month mortgage, not the other parents responsibility. Each parent should be responsible for 1/2 food, shelter,clothing, and medical under the same guidelines. Anything else provided for the child is the parent's individual choice to do so.

As cs is worked out now it is dependent on the parent's income levels. This affords lifestyle, which is not an obligation of any parent. This current method also allows certain irreputable people to abuse the system. A good example was in my recent hosital stay a young mother was in the nursery after just having given birth to her fourth son. She was complaining that she would have to go through social services to get c.s. yet again, as her other 3 children all have different dads. This young woman is recieving roughly 25% of 4 different men's income. She is being paid the equivalent of a full-time job for doing nothing more then .....well, scr*wing around. If the average cs payment is between $500.00-$750.00 a month, I wastd my time and money in college. (I have 6 kids)


It just makes more sense to calculate child support based on what it actually takes to raise a child in your area then to base it on the parents income. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can see where your coming from, but if the courts did that they would be boggled with paperwork and receipts. For instance......if caculated that way then EVERYTHING should be caculated down the middle and you would get into the what the other parents lifestyle for clothes etc. would be as well a education and extra activities etc. Our system has it's flaws but it could be worse. We have people on both ends abusing the system which is very very sad.

I dont really post here often, but once in a while something moves me. I am not sure what state everyone lives in. But Where I live it wouldnt matter how much he was making now, but what he made the last three years. A judge decides what he is capable of making. It prevents men from quitting to get out of paying. And while I certainly understand protecting your own home, I dont understand pretending someone is a non-person. If people would learn to cooperate on both sides, alot of this mess wouldnt happen. The damage is done why not make the best of it.
And before every one starts screaming dont sleep with a married man, obviously it is too late for everyone to achieve that.
And lynn, while I see why and how you did what you did, I am glad you saved your marriage, However, I dont see the rest as very honest. But when we are backed into a corner it is normal for us to come out fighting, We are human after all. That goes for both sides.

{Nikki's note: Here is one last articles I'd thought I'd share. I am an owner of a list for TX single moms and I have several news filters set up to capture any and every article in this country regarding any issues related to child support, visitation and and other related issues to help promote healthy discussions among my members. This is also why I am pretty current on what is happening in this arena.}

Men must support kids proved not to be theirs

By Aetna Smith

DEMOCRAT STAFF WRITER


You have a relationship. You have a child. You split up. The father pays child support. It's not a perfect system, but it's reality for countless men.

And here's another reality: Some of those men aren't the biological fathers of the kids they're supporting.

Quincy resident Tony Winbush is one of them. He made his child-support payments month after month, year after year - until he discovered through DNA testing that he wasn't actually the biological father of the child. The same thing happened to Bobby Rhames, also of Quincy.

Incensed, they wanted to stop those payments. But Florida law gave them little reason for hope. Generally, it requires that child support continue until the child's 18th birthday, regardless of who the biological father is.

Now, two state lawmakers from Tallahassee are researching a bill that would make it easier for people such as Winbush and Rhames to end their child support. Eleven states, including Georgia, have changed those laws since 1994.

But some people worry that what's best for the children is overlooked in this debate. Fatherhood is about more than biology, they say.

'It tore me apart'

Winbush, 32, said he'd been paying child support for years for a son he had with an ex-girlfriend. The Tallahassee maintenance worker had a good relationship with the boy, and they visited at least twice a week.

But one day in 2000, when the boy was 6, he made a strange comment to Winbush's mother.

"He asked my mom did he have two fathers," Winbush said. "She called me over there to listen to what he was saying, and he said: 'My mom said I have two dads.'"

It was time to get tested. Winbush and his son had the insides of their mouths swabbed for DNA tissue. In June 2001 he got the stunning news: a 99.9-percent nonmatch. He wasn't the biological father.

"It tore me apart," he said.

Rhames, 41, faced a similar situation with a child he'd had with a girlfriend. Rhames, a carpenter, paid child support without question after he split with the mother. But he also was confronted with the question of who the child's biological father was. He and the girl took DNA tests in 2000. No match.

"I love her," he said of the girl, but "she needs to know her real biological father."

Armed with this new DNA information, both men stopped paying child support. Both went to court to get out of a legal obligation to make future payments. But both had to resume the payments. Florida law says they should have contested paternity shortly after fatherhood was legally established, not years later.

The men say they want to get the laws changed so a paternity order can be thrown out and child support may cease at any time if "fathers" find a 0-percent match through DNA testing.

Winbush and Rhames are working with a paternity-law crusader, Carnell Smith, to get a "paternity fraud" bill passed in Florida. Smith says countless men are defrauded by women who trick them into fatherhood. The women, he says, either know the identity of the biological fathers or know there are multiple father candidates.

Smith argues that a financial relationship based on deception but enforced by courts and local child-support offices isn't fair. The men in such circumstances, he says, shouldn't be forced to make payments.

Winbush said the emotional strain of finding out the truth about his son was bad enough. But the financial strain that followed only made matters worse.

"I loved that child, and he was special to me," he said. "So I'm the man working, losing wages, owing back child support around $15,000, and the real father is out lying on a beach somewhere.

"I can't afford anything. ... I apply for a house, to buy a car ... then up comes the child support (claim)," he said. "I want to have something nice, but I can't have anything nice. If (he) was my child, I (wouldn't) mind."

Indeed, the Child Support Enforcement office within the state Department of Revenue uses many methods to collect child support: requiring employers to garnish wages, placing liens on homes and cars and reporting child-support debts to credit agencies, among others. The office also works with the courts and law enforcement to arrest parents over violations related to child support.

Smith and other challengers of paternity laws say the courts should consider the financial damage done to the man's biological children and to his current spouse.

Winbush, for example, pays $227 a month for his own children but $283 a month for the child who isn't his.

Lawmakers on board

He and Rhames sought Smith's help to lobby for paternity-fraud laws in Florida. Last year, the three men approached Rep. Curtis Richardson and Sen. Al Lawson, both Democrats from Tallahassee, about sponsoring bills during this year's legislative session.

Both lawmakers said they were struck by Smith's fairness argument. Richardson's and Lawson's staffs are researching versions of bills that mirror Georgia statutes passed in 2002. In Georgia, if a man discovers through genetic testing that he has a 0-percent DNA match, the court will relieve him of future payments. There is no time limit on such a discovery.

"We just want to give the guys relief when it's not their kid," Lawson said.

But child advocates such as Jack Levine of Tallahassee question whether the proposal is in the best interests of the child.

"If a man finds out he may not be the father, he should be careful in his decision-making to not damage the child," said Levine, president of Advocacy Resources, a consulting group that works with private and civic groups that serve families. "I think there has to be a degree of selflessness when it comes to that decision. It should never just be viewed as an economic issue."

Levine, who has a degree in child development, said if the father's feelings change toward the child, the emotional impact on the child could be "absolutely devastating."

Rhames' ex-girlfriend, Connie Miranda, says she understands that devastation. Her daughter was a "daddy's girl" - until the DNA test. Miranda said she named Rhames in error, not to intentionally defraud him, a situation that experts say is common.

Since shortly after the test, Rhames and Miranda say, he's had little contact with the girl. The child, now a teenager, has received court-mandated therapy but refused to speak during sessions, Miranda said.

"She was his baby. He was so protective of her," Miranda, 33, who was married last year and lives in Quincy, said recently. "From birth until 9 years old, he was her father. He's still her father. It's wrong. How can you raise this kid for nine years and then kick (her) to the curb like a stray dog?"

Rhames defends himself. He says after he told Miranda about the planned DNA test, he was investigated by a state agency on suspicion of drug abuse based on an accusation by Miranda. Since then, an attorney advised him to stay away from the mother and her daughter. Miranda responded that a relative of hers filed the complaint. He was cleared of the allegation.

Levine said he doesn't think there are "great thousands" of men finding out through DNA tests they are not the fathers of children. So he thinks these matters should continue to be handled in the courts or through mediation, not by wide-ranging laws.
Smith disagrees, citing that nationally 30 percent of about 300,000 men tested through DNA analyses in 2003 were not the biological fathers, according to the American Association of Blood Banks.

Paula Roberts of the Center for Law and Social Policy in Washington, D.C., said paternity challenges, children born out of wedlock and infidelity in marriages say "terrible things" about the state of parenting.

"We've divorced marriage, parenting and childbearing from each other," she said. "Instead of a cluster of events, we see them as separate events. That does not bode well for children."

<small>[ February 06, 2005, 10:54 AM: Message edited by: Stormyweather ]</small>

The bottom line is it is always the woman's choice to have unprotected or protected sex with a married man and to have or not have a child.

Anything else said is just excuses, lies, justifications, and twisting of the facts to excuses adultery.

I believe no child support needs to be given at all to children born outside a legal marriage but the government forces things. How many of these female adulterers would continue to become pregnant with the married men and bear children if no child support was given?

<small>[ February 06, 2005, 10:58 AM: Message edited by: lifeisstrange ]</small>

Celebration of a marriage that survived an affair and an OC.

POJA between a married couple worked to save Lynn's family.

Celebration is in order.

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LynnG:
<strong> NTMO- I can understand being angry if he is not paying and has not provided insurance. That I have never balked at. Actully it pisses me off cause we were never late with our cs payment. Ever.

~~~~~~Lynn, thank you. The way you have explained it NOW is much better than in the past from what I heard from ..Question..you said your husband was making juice or something for his party today, have you been dipping into when you were posting last night???? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Just joking, you seemed to me that you were more understanding and commpasionate then other times.

What we did is NOT illegal. It's not like he made $100,000 one year, and then we retroactively changed our books and lied about it. We, after initial child support was set, changed how we did business. I got more involved then I had been. I along with my sister Incorporated and handled some big accounts through that. What my husband did was slow down his production. Had some lean years. It was not like we were being paid cash and stashing it in a mattress! (like my grandmother did in the old days <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ). Every dime earned in this home was properly taxed, and recorded. The fact that my career took off, and thus was able to support the family allowed him to cut back. That is all legal. My business, which is closely related to his, is mine alone. I was doing it when oc was born, and have done so since. I just became more successfull! And he became less so. Happens all the time! Look at Nick and Jessica!! (Sorry, younger daughter loves them <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) He was the star when they met, now look who is raking in the cash?
~~~~I can understand that more even though I think there was a motive behind it, I understand it more. In may case, They are IN the same business and are partners. Which totally understand the 50 50 split. I had no problem with that and it is fair......but when you purposly start hiding income and stupidly put all the income under the wife's name although the public number is still under mm's number (the business we're in) when every dime has always been under the mm names and number then as soon as he tells her the commissions go uner her name (but his number) that is cheating and stupidly trying to hide. Our first court date his attorney said okay they are partners and it's 50 50. DUH. I knew that and was fine with that, except the figures on the AFC were WRONG. He tried to show he is in debt majorerly a month and I knew better as I knew what he had been doing the last 5 years and there was NO way it could have been (another long story)We are also in the same business (different office's) and I'm a bookkeeper by trade.......I don't do books anymore though....wanted to make more money and get away from the computer 10 hours a day (nerve damge).

This was not done overnight. It's not like I was making $10,000 one year and $100,000 the next, and him going from $100,000 and then down to $25,000....keep in mind those are not the correct figures. This was a process.

~~~~I understand those are not the correct figures and you'd be crazy to post the correct figures as I would too. When we went to the court the second time he went from being 50 50 partners to she makes 70% he makes 30% <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> If you knew him and her both you understand my rolling of the eyes. Again the number was under his name but the checks written out to her. So you can say they are stupid in a way, although they are trying to give it a good try.

The oc received child support that was more then enough to sustain him. Actually, it is more then I spend on my college aged daughter a month for her upkeep. There was just little incentive for my husband to work hard when he was going to lose 25% of it. There was plenty of incentive for me to work hard to assure my children had what they do. And, to ease your mind as to the legalities of it, the judge did question the balance of income and it was addressed, and understood. Husband was still making a decent enough salary to give a decent amount to oc. The figures I use here are not reality. Just numbers.

~~~~~~I just remember way back when, when you said how much you paid in cs and it was like a small amount hardly to cover expenses (like maybe when it started a good amount but in today's world and expenses small) Maybe you were just using numbers and real ones?

Back to your situation, I do understand your anger about him deeking out on the insurance and the cs. I don't see how that can happen. Once it is set, it is set. No way out. That is why I tell the BW here not to worry about it, cause there is no way around it. I know you hate to hear it like this, but it is a bill. Just like a mortagage, light bill, child support, gas bill, etc. You have to do it. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No I agree with you, it's just like another bill. That is how it should be looked at. My problem is with it, is yes it's set in stone, although I spent thousands of dollars proving he lied (which I've proved) and to take it to trial will cost me a lot more money. It's sad that it would go to that, even when proven. It's like the end result is the end result. As far as the insurance goes........thankfully she is covered under my stbxh policy with no problem from him and now there is no divorce in site (it's cheaper for both of us this way) but I had waited from the 15th of August to the 15th of Nov for him to provide this insurance and because he did not want to sign it (which he was ordered to do by the court provide a policy for her) they fought it and gave excuses after excuses. I could go on and on but I'm sure this is very long and you probally agree with most of what they have done and understand there end of it. I hope I'm wrong since you did say what you did in this post. I don't feel as strongly about you reading this post I will admit. I in no time through all of this was trying to screw xmm out of his income and take away from his kids. In fact I told him before this all happened that if he (after he insisted I take dna test through amino and did a no show twice) did the dna test with out a fight and search for him, and we sat down with our attorneys and worked out a fair settlement for both of us, and I would not have to incurre a huge attoreny bill fighting him for what the end results would be anyway........I would be more than fair and not ask for some things that he would normally be resposible for otherwise. He chose to do it this way. He knew I'd catch him in the lies. He knows me. He knows you don't screw around with any of kids. He's known that since I've had my twins let alone now. When it came closer that he was preparing himself to tell his wife was when he said he was going to lie about his income (no common sense here) and I was going on welfare if I kept "this kid".

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lifeisstrange:
<strong> The bottom line is it is always the woman's choice to have unprotected or protected sex with a married man and to have or not have a child.

Anything else said is just excuses, lies, justifications, and twisting of the facts to excuses adultery.

I believe no child support needs to be given at all to children born outside a legal marriage but the government forces things. How many of these female adulterers would continue to become pregnant with the married men and bear children if no child support was given? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How very very sad your tunnel vision is at work. Every child has a right to support inside or outside of the marriage...........remember it took two to get pregnant.........the sprem fairy did not come into these woman and implant in the middle of the night <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Stormy, I don't feel any man who is not the bio (or has not adopted) a child should support any child that is not his. That is so sad that to many men are being put in that position to support a child not there and the real bio is running around scott free and not forced to take responsiblity. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mom of five:
<strong> I dont really post here often, but once in a while something moves me. I am not sure what state everyone lives in. But Where I live it wouldnt matter how much he was making now, but what he made the last three years. A judge decides what he is capable of making. It prevents men from quitting to get out of paying. And while I certainly understand protecting your own home, I dont understand pretending someone is a non-person. If people would learn to cooperate on both sides, alot of this mess wouldnt happen. The damage is done why not make the best of it.
And before every one starts screaming dont sleep with a married man, obviously it is too late for everyone to achieve that.
And lynn, while I see why and how you did what you did, I am glad you saved your marriage, However, I dont see the rest as very honest. But when we are backed into a corner it is normal for us to come out fighting, We are human after all. That goes for both sides. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">mom very well said.

what gets me is that child support is rarely used for things for the children. it often goes for things the mother wants. if moms were required to keep receipts it would be fairer to the chidlren.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lifeisstrange:
<strong> what gets me is that child support is rarely used for things for the children. it often goes for things the mother wants. if moms were required to keep receipts it would be fairer to the chidlren. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">EXCUSE ME????????????? Do you have kids right? You do know what it cost to raise a child week by week right? My daycare alone is more than xmm's original cs set before we went back to court and that is just daycare, it did not even include formula, diapers, wipes, babyfood, clothing, toys, medicine, bath items, doctor visits, they go every frecking month for just about for the first year for shots alone, not including when they are sick. Then you have houseing, and all that goes with that. You have to keep a roof over your kids head. I pay all month day to day for my children. I get my cs on a certain day.....if I use a portion of that money to buy me a pair of nylons or get my hair trimmed, that does not mean I don't use that money towards my kids. I am paying day to day for there needs. I don't get money day to day for there needs from cs. If I buy my children an Ice Cream cone the day my cs comes in from xmm it does not mean I'm not using that money not for the child. If I pay my car payment when it comes in, again it does not mean I'm not useing that money on my child. Again I pay day to day for this child. Also if mothers were required to keep receipts for the day to day expenses for there children, it would cost the paying party way more than the cs they pay <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

<small>[ February 06, 2005, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: needtomoveon ]</small>

as women, it is our choice, our 100% choice ot have children. in every way it is our choice. so complaining about how much children cost does not make any sense. it is and was our choice.

your life sounds very difficult, N, but yet you chose it.

Life,

That is an old fight and neither argument seems to hold much weight. Men know what it takes to get pregnant so they shouldnt whine about support.

I dont believe most women use support for themselves. I believe most(not all) mothers do with out so there children have more! But I do believe there are those who do not think of there kids, but I would bet the majority are not like that. I get support for my daughter, I let him choose the amount, and I specifically use it for her, not any of my other children. However if I needed to I would, because I provide 99 % of her support, and 99% of her day to day care. And I bet he wouldnt want to be responsible for all that money if I saved all thoughs receipts ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I think most men who are used to a woman handling most things would faint if they saw exactly what it takes to raise a child. They might would even keep it in their pants a little more!haha

Heh, heh! so true. women need to keep thier panties on and men need to keep it zipped. seems so simple. wish more would choose to do it.

I do think that the cost of raising a child may not be as high as some speculate. I don't doubt any of you/us moms have real expenses.

But I have 3 & even the reasonable amount we pay out for CS now is WAY more than I spend collectively on our 3 @ home.

AND some child expenses are not really child expenses & would be paid out anyway. For example, if you have 1 child & live in a 2 bedroom unit, & then have another child, you can STILL live in a 2 bedroom unit. The housing cost did NOT go up. The difference in utilities is minimal if any. kwim? Diapers are a short term expense (well, to some, others it can take up to 3 years to get out of those---yahoo for early potty training! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) Even baby food---you can mash yoru own baby food jsut as easily.

Many of our 'childhood' expenses are really just childhood conveniences.

AND that is WHY CS % are not calculated PER child, ONE child is allowed (roughly)20-25% of man's net income BUT 2 kids is only %30 & 3 kids would be about %35-40.

But even then.......I agree w/ the poster who said that CS seems to be about equally the child's LIFESTYLE NOT supporting the child's actual needs.(or somethign like that--ruff paraphrase here) Which I find just stupid.

If you look @ the dissomaster that you get when they calculate CS they don't base it on the 'actual & factual' costs of raising a child, they take the mother & father's income & whichever one is higher, they subtract the other & then basically that is the amount that is paid so that the income in the child's HOUSEHOLD is equal so that the child has an EQUAL standard of living in each household.

BUT the reason I find it unfair IS: if the female is living in an area where the cost of living is lower but the man's neighborhood is higher then HE is really getting the raw end of the deal.

IT can look on paper like BOTH households are EQUAL because BOTH households will now have a net income of say, $1000 a month coming in.(after CS is deducted & paid out) (fake #) but if the womans rent is $500 but the man's is $700 then who is really the loser.

PLUS the fact that the recipient of CS recieves that $$$$ TAX FREE (& doesn't have to report it as income) while the obligor/payer MUST pay taxes on it but gets NO tax credit for it. (like claiming the dependent). SO if you also add in the amount of TAX the recepient is NOT paying on that $$$$$---then the woman again, comes out ON TOP financially.

Some people have different idea of 'needs'.
Not to discount any of you/us mothers.
MY kids do NOT need new shoes once a month.
OC ALWAYS had a NEW pair of shoes EVERY TIME we saw her. And it was NOT becuase she outgrew or out wore them.

My kids do not NEED new clothes every month.

WHen/if they do get something 'new' it is usally hand me downs, or it's from the thrift store or if it is actually NEW, it was a gift from relatives for christmas or b-days.

My kids are in need of nothing materially. They have nice clothes & really have too much. (my laundry basket proves that! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) SO there are always ways to lessen the 'financial burden' of having a child.

But CS should not be used to cater to a 'lifestyle' preference.

THere really should be some guidelines based on the actual cost of living for a child. It can even be state to state since I understand some states (like mine) are higher than others.

But then maybe we would have end up paying MORE??? who knows. Or maybe makin ga federal guideline to include ALL the children men are supporting NOT just the ones who fiel or the ones who only 'visit'.

If you read this far....sorry so long?

???????
kt

<small>[ February 06, 2005, 07:33 PM: Message edited by: ktbunch ]</small>

Well I dont know about you but My expenses are pretty REAL... However I figure his are as well, which is why he and I cooperate when it comes to the money part. He doesnt pay 20% I would say he pays about 7%. But he does other things to help out and I am not in need of every free dime he has. Because I want him to have money when he has her, incase they would like to do stuff.
But Tuition for private school(His idea) isnt cheap. And 5 children go through alot of shoes and clothes and they share clothes and shoes all the time. Add to that the Electric and water( I wash a lot of clothes) and it is quite a tidy sum. I guess if I made him pay 20% I would havemore to put away for her future. But Like I said it isnt that important to me that he pay, just that if he is going to be daddy, that he do a good job.

What we pay is quite low, comparatively. However, it was set by the courts and I was quite pleased. It costs to raise a child, sure. BUT, I look at it this way. If the ow and her family are living in a house, she would be paying for it already, she would have to heat it, etc. So, if there are 5 people living in the house, oc would cost 1/5th of that. Then food. I feed kids, etc. It doesn't cost $500.00 a month to feed a child. Unless you buy crap.

So, if we are paying child support, and 50% of insurance and 50% of daycare when he was small, that was more then enough. If that child was her husbands, she would not be getting that money.

We do pay very little, but we do pay for insurance and we made sure that counted.


Drinking last night??? I am just way mellow this weekend. Must be the doldrums of winter!! Today however, I should have drank, and a lot. We had a huge bonfire/kegger/pig roast party. Big TV out in the garage for the mother of all football games. Everyone was here. All the women and kids left..the men are out there, not wanting to waste a drop of the beer and watching the post game shows.....as if they missed a play or something. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> My kids are all outside and I came upstairs to get away from it all. My yard looks like the frat house from Animal House. I'm sure it will smell simply lovely tomorrow <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

But yeah, I am way mellow lately!!

I just had to join in the discussion. H pays less than 20%, we know he would pay more if we go through court.

XOW makes more than H. OC is always wearing brand new clothes everytime we see her. I wonder if our own children will be able to dress as well, (I kind of doubt it, as I've had to go to consignment shops for some of my maternity clothes). I know that the CS goes to OC since the amount we pay barely covers the daycare costs. But I can't think our own children will have a lower standard of living than OC, and I think that's sad in a way. Although, they will have a full time father, OC does not.

I also read a post about NTMO that said her XMM's wife had a Lous Vouiton, so did XOW, but it was stolen because she was not too smart and left her car unlocked. I guess it was karma.

I completely believe in supporting your children, but I worry what we can afford for our child- the CS definitely makes our situation that much harder. I worry when the kids get older they'll wonder why OC can have clothes etc... that are more expensive than theirs. But, it also comes down to priorities. We own our home, XOW rents. H and I are not poor, we make a decent living. It just so happens the XOW in our case makes more than H. (Of course it is not more than our combined income.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Wife30:
<strong> I just had to join in the discussion. H pays less than 20%, we know he would pay more if we go through court.

XOW makes more than H. OC is always wearing brand new clothes everytime we see her. I wonder if our own children will be able to dress as well, (I kind of doubt it, as I've had to go to consignment shops for some of my maternity clothes). I know that the CS goes to OC since the amount we pay barely covers the daycare costs. But I can't think our own children will have a lower standard of living than OC, and I think that's sad in a way. Although, they will have a full time father, OC does not.

I also read a post about NTMO that said her XMM's wife had a Lous Vouiton, so did XOW, but it was stolen because she was not too smart and left her car unlocked. I guess it was karma.

I completely believe in supporting your children, but I worry what we can afford for our child- the CS definitely makes our situation that much harder. I worry when the kids get older they'll wonder why OC can have clothes etc... that are more expensive than theirs. But, it also comes down to priorities. We own our home, XOW rents. H and I are not poor, we make a decent living. It just so happens the XOW in our case makes more than H. (Of course it is not more than our combined income.) </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wife, first of all thanks for helping me with the spelling of that purse.....can you guess I've never had one??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I was way off on the spelling........and amazing how that Karma can bite someone in the buttocks <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

You know what, as far as consignment shops go, they are great! I bought all my maternty clothes there (and some were given to me). Even if I would have had way to much to spend I would have gone and bought them there. In my case I was NOT planning on having anymore children and really could not see wasting full price money on those clothes never getting use out of them of them again. I did have to have work suits and all as I dress up for work. I have neices that we have had our kids close together and we all have shared clothes and we all keep our clothes in good shape. In fact my niece sent me a box of clothes a few months ago and some were for the twins and some for the baby. stbxh was here and we were all going through the clothes (my kids think they are new to them anyway and thrilled with hammydowns) and there were clothes in there that she had given me with the twins that were her 10 year old that I had given back to her that were for her 5 year old (as the ages were younger then) for the baby. Plus clothes that I had bought for the twins that she sent back. Even he noticed, hey the twins use to wear those! I have another friend that sent me all kinds of clothes (gambery) for the baby. I thank God for these people thinking of me as kids clothes no matter how old add up. With babies they grow so fast! As they grow older they still grow so fast. I do major shopping twice a year for the twins. Even with that I buy on sale. I will buy at Dillards, but there 75% off racks for the next year. I have really learned to be thirfty with clothes and no one has ever complained at my household, nor have people snickered about how my kids look. My kids get new shoes twice a year with maybe one more time in between. I make them take care of there shoes. There clothes too. I'm very picky how I wash them also. It is very costly to raise kids. I have given up a lot since I've had the baby to ajust to those expenses, but it's okay as later her expenses go down and I will be able to have those extra's again. I do disagree with KT that it does cost a lot for kids. I consider myself pretty frugle at this stage in my life and learned to buy generic foods when I use to be the brand name queen.....I don't breast feed anymore and her food is expensive. It's getting cheaper though as I've started her on table food and even though she only has two teeth she does pretty darn good gumming it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . I spend on an average a week for diapers, formula, babyfood, and wipes (the basic) $53.00. Considering the twins cost us 150.00 a year the first year every week that is pretty good. With the twins I did it all brand name. I've learned that luv's diapers are great diapers for her (huggies are almost twice as much), and I use Wal-Mart brand formula. Now that one was a hard one for me, but I took it to my ped and had him read the ingredients and said it was just like enfamil......so it eased my find. Not including safe key for the twins I spend 130.00 - 150.00 a week for daycare. I have a two bedroom condo that I got after I had the baby to cut down on my expenses. Although I lost a bedroom, it's not much smaller than my other condo, and it's brand new. I share a room with the baby and as soon as she is a bit older I'm moving the girls toys in the garage and making it a playroom with carpet and all, then I'll move her in there room. When I got pregnant, I had a nice family van with all the extras in it. It was big and comfy, and told me which way I was going and everything. I traded that in for a 4 door car that we all fit in and still has some things like power windows etc., but my payment is almost 250.00 cheaper than my van was. My kids complain that they don't have the room anymore, but oh well. It's duable and comfortable still and cheaper on gas <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . The thing is I knew by x-mas before the baby was born that it was not going to be over night that xmm would accept this and I had to make ajustments then before it got out of hand and I started loosing things that my children and I already had. Before I got pregnant I had a tan all year around....I ONLY wore Este Lauder make up and even though I never bought clothes all the time for myself or shoes I only bought from certain stores. When I do have to buy something for myself (which is seldom as I take care of my clothes) I have compromised my standards now. It really does not bother me that much either. So I'm not complaining about how much it cost ME to have my children as lifeisstrange suggested, I was basically saying to you here are the facts. It's expensive the so to speak "start up fees" of havning a child. I was smart with the twins. I started buying as soon as I knew the pregnancy was safe since we had to buy for two. Wife, your child should not be getting less than oc. I hope you don't feel that should be the case. If there is a will there is a way. Make friends with people that you can trade clothes at the different ages and all. I've gotten some pretty nice clothes for my kids. I've given some pretty nice clothes away from my kids. I don't feel that my baby is done without except one major thing. She has plenty. My twins have plenty. What I do feel bad about is my twins were use to being in dance class and since the baby came because of the fight and hiding of assests and the process taking it's time, they have had to stop those extra things. They will be back in there activites though and all will be fine again. I took two weeks off after I had the baby and was lucky that I could take her to work with me for a month in a half before I had to start paying a babysitter. It's been tough in a lot of ways but could have been a lot worse. I could have not been able to work at all and they would not have the roof over there head or x-mas or a birthday parties etc. I think I've gotten off track here, but my point is that KT you maynot spend that much on your kids and you've figured out how to do that. Not everyone can do it like that. You've given up certain things so you can homeschool and be at home with your kids since you do have a husband to take up that slack while you keep up your slack KWIM? I've learned to be better, but I'm doing the best I can. I think the majority of mothers/parents do. I do not HOWEVER agree with lifeisstrange about her theroy on a mother should not be asking the bio at all for anything. Wife your going to be just fine. I see it in your post. I can tell you've got a good head on your shoulders. Start planning and buying now. Don't wait for that shower, unless you know something is a given. If you plan on breast feeding still join the formula clubs and have that on hand just in case. They send you free formula to try out. Start buying diapers now. When I was pregnant with the twins I started buying diapers as soon as I knew I was safe........and every week when I bought grocries, I bought a thing of daipers (different sizes) plus my sister asked me what I wanted and I told her diapers and she did the same thing as me buying everyweek.......I did not buy any diapers for 2 months after they were born. My bought my crib one month and the mattress the next. I bought the car seats another month and my stroller another month.........I saved up for the high chairs and bought them later. Also the most expensive is not always the best. I bought PREGO highchairs at almost 200.00 per chair as people told me they'd be in them till they were 4. WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!! They learned how to un latch them and crawl out at 2 years old. It was a huge waste of money for the time they spent in them. Any hints you need just ask........I'm making this post really long doing this now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lifeisstrange:
<strong> your life sounds very difficult, N, but yet you chose it. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually It's not so bad. I was explaining something to either you or someone else...can't remember. I have a great place to live that is very affordable, and a good job which advancement for selfemployment, 3 great wonderful kids that are all a blessing and a joy to be around and fun to be around <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . We have had to make ajustments on somethings, but it could be a whole lot worse. I could be in teh position of not knowing how to support myself, or not be smart enough to know how to manage my money. You sound very bitter to me and I'm sorry to hear that. In my opinion your thoughts about cs the womans choice is very selfcentered though. Very narrow minded. But that is how you feel and you have a right to your thoughts of feeling that way. I'm asking you though not to put someone down for not agreeing with you and try to belittle them or me. We are all different people in different situations and no one size fits all. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Lynn I like you much better way mellow.......you have your points, but your so much more compassionate about it and not sounding so harsh or boasting. I actually enjoyed debating with you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
I'm glad you guys had a good superbowl party and hope your clean up tomorrow is not an all day event

In my state it is 18% of the gross income for one and 25% for two 29% for three then it goes up 2% per child there after. Plus we do have a cap here in my state and it's a shared cost of living. So I feel it's pretty fair here. The other expenses daycare/medical un reinbursed etc., are all split 50 50.

KT, if she were married she maynot get that money from her husband, but she would have her husband's income to help with those expenses. Not to start a war with you, but think about it. My stbxh pays cs, and if he lived with me not only would that cs support he pays now be there, actually more money a month would be there to help with more of there expenses.

You gotta love those state caps. Because of the cap the xOW in our case can never come back for an increase in CS unless the laws change. The OW is capped at around $700. I don't remember the exact amount but whatever it is I think it's more than enough. She wanted to settle for $5,000 a month. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> She must have been on drugs when she suggested that. She wanted to be a stay at home mom. I think she wanted my moms life. If not for the cap I bet she would have gotten enough to stay home.

Where I have a differing opinion is the college expenses or education expenses in general. My parents paid 100% of my education. I think if the parents have the money and it's not a burden to them they should pay it. I think dad should pay for OC's whole education because he can afford it and won't even miss the money. My fiance and I have already talked about starting a college fund for our child and he/she is not even born yet. I don't understand why a parent would not pay for college if they can afford it.

Cody???? 5 Grand a month??? That is funny! That the stow who sits home eating bon bons. The majority of us work our butts off as we did before the child. It's life. I agree with you on the college education as well. You are a very lucky person that your parents were able to take care of that and the best part....YOU TOOK ADVANTAGE of your parents offer. Education is extremly important. Are you almost through with school?

I have been done with college for a while now. My parents had this rule that if I wanted my bills paid I had to go to college. They did not raise a fool. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> As soon as I graduated my free ride was over. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

As for the 5k a month yes it is funny. I am not joking when I say that she wanted my moms life and our lifestyle. The really sad thing is if we lived say in CA he could have gotten stuck paying that kind of child support, possibly more. I think caps should be in place in all states to stop that.

I was reading in MASS Sean "P Diddy" Combs was told to pay his ex GF $35,000 a month in child support for one child. That is INSANE! He called it adult support and he is right. Last I heard he appealed it. I hope he wins.

<small>[ February 07, 2005, 11:05 AM: Message edited by: CodyG ]</small>

posted by NTMO:KT, if she were married she may not get that money from her husband, but she would have her husband's income to help with those expenses. Not to start a war with you, but think about it. My stbxh pays cs, and if he lived with me not only would that cs support he pays now be there, actually more money a month would be there to help with more of there expenses.

Are you trying to say that if they were married, they would have his & her $$$? (H & W) You also have to remember something about those on welfare...that 'income' from welfare is NOT calculated in but their FULL expenses are...so OW may not have had income from a spouse but she did have it from uncle sam. (I know not all OW are on welfare, just ours)

I WAS a SAHM that didn't have to work, before CS. We were not rich, not even homeowners, but we made do. Like most in America, living paycheck to paycheck. SO there was no extra $$$ coming in. The CS we paid out went directly FROM our budget. IT was like getting a %25 cut in pay. WHO can afford that?

I immediately got a minimum wage job working from home (adult daycare provider) so that I could continue to homeschool & make up the difference.

I would not have been so upset if I was ALREADY a working out of my home-mom but I wasn't. Meanwhile, OW was working PART-time making WAY more than I was (almost double) AND getting welfare. (not to debate about welfare)Just making a point. The judge told ME to get a job! (yep, I sure was insulted @ that! & I was 8 mos. pg!)

As if H support of OC was MORE important than the support of OUR kids? Honestly, @ that point it would have cost me MORE to work outside of my home than not...just for daycare costs alone (you single moms know what I mean, daycare for a NEWBORN AND a toddler?) I don't know what that judge was thinking!

I DO think OW wanted to have our lifestyle, even it was just her IDEA of what it was, not what the reality was. She made numerous comments to me about it.

OW seemed to have this 'ideal' that she thought I was living & thought she deserved it too. I think that is why she turned down a full-time position that was offered to her so that she could feel like she was a SAHM mom 'like me'.

There are many ways that CS obligors get the raw end of the deal. MANY.

MY kids did do w/o for awhile, WAY more than OC. THe younger ones did not notice of course but the older one did. ("you got new shoes again?" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> )

Yes, eventually CS was reduced because we had way more time w/ OC. (H still ahd to fight it out in court against the DA though) It is more reasonable now & we don't even notice since it comes out automatically. Technically though, OW can always go back & file for more (& win) since we no longer have C. I sincerely doubt she will though becuase she does NOT want us involved so she will not do anything to provoke us to get involved again. kwim?
****************************
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I am just sincerely glad that all that mess is over for now & that we have peace, even it is not forever, @ least things are settled for now. whew! kwim?

xoxo
kt

KT, what I was trying to say and this is assuming that she is NOT on welfare because I highly doubt (although I could be wrong about that too) that if she was married and her husband worked a decent job she could get. I'm using the sceniro that she is married, and husband has a desent job and maybe even she works and makes money. She benifits from his income too....it's incoropated together and would therefore have more money than what she would on cs. I remember you telling us about the welfare thing and turning down that one job. When stbxh and I were still together his income was our income and not just a portion of like a cs amount. That is what I meant.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CodyG:
<strong> I have been done with college for a while now. My parents had this rule that if I wanted my bills paid I had to go to college. They did not raise a fool. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> As soon as I graduated my free ride was over. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

As for the 5k a month yes it is funny. I am not joking when I say that she wanted my moms life and our lifestyle. The really sad thing is if we lived say in CA he could have gotten stuck paying that kind of child support, possibly more. I think caps should be in place in all states to stop that.

I was reading in MASS Sean "P Diddy" Combs was told to pay his ex GF $35,000 a month in child support for one child. That is INSANE! He called it adult support and he is right. Last I heard he appealed it. I hope he wins. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OMG $35,000 a month? WOW!!!! That is insane. That is totally supporting her lifestyle and not just the child. They were never married? I'd appeal that too, and I'm for cs for every child.

Now THAT"S the way to go......just get pg from a rap star or basketball start! LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

AND that is because of what I mentioned earlier, it is to make the child's home EQUAL to the OP standard of living-----------which is ridiculous!IMO

xoxoxox
kt

BUMP for newbies

Pepperband - Thanks for your posting. I would give anything to feel that way. Sometimes we don't realize we go through things to one day be a blessing to another friend who will one day experience the same thing.

For me NO CONTACT is the only and BEST way for us to move on with our lives. I'm not ready for a drama filled life. My H and I want simple lives. We have worked to hard to have our lives filled with constant DRAMA! Thanks again.

Wow, I'm new here, on about the fifth week of trying to make our marriage work after my H told me that he was having an A and the OW is pregnant. I really needed to read this today, thank you so much and I'm so happy that I found this site and these wonderful people who are helping each other.

Welcome trying2loveagain,

Why don't you start your own thread and tell us about yourself. There is a lot of support and helpful information here. So very sorry to hear that you have found your self in this situation. Unfortunately, it isn't as small a club as it feels like. There are, unfortunately, too many of us walking this same story.

Fled

bump