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To tell you the truth... if I were an OW who got preg... I'd BE HAPPY as H*LL to not have to show my face anywhere NEAR that family. I'd BE HAPPY to collect $$ from this guy and GO ON to love my child without the scowling from others, (i.e. how most OW don't disclose its from a MM - they have that luxory wherein the MM and BW do NOT)...

Seriously-- but that is because I would feel SORRY for my choice and FEEL ROTTEN for hurting an innocent WOMAN AND CHILDREN who I had NO BUSINESS tangling with in any way. I don't care WHAT a MM did to get me-------- I DO NOT take what is not mine-- and if I SCREW w/lives in any way-- I feel or would feel ROTTEN and when you feel remorse-- you are GLAD to stay OUT of the lives of those you hurt-- and surely would NOT be ALL UP IN THEIR FACES saying ME ME ME look at ME- shoooot I'd be HAPPY AS HECK to go to my corner - with MY baby that I WANTED AND LOVED and REALIZE that CONTACT would be ICKY AND NOT ALWAYS BEST for the child.

I would KNOW my baby deserved a great life-and know I could give it to my child WITHOUT having a false entitlement to SCORN AND SHAKE MY FINGER at the MM-- because he is only doing what he HAS TO DO in a NO WIN situation.

Okay.. I can NEVER keep this short-- I type too friggin fast! LOL

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WOW PEP

we crossed posted the EXACT same theories here!

I just saw your post-- !!!!

You, however, have a way of NO FRILLS and getting the same points across as my long-arsed ones.

Is there a course I can take called "keep the sh*t short" and get the same idea across?? LOL

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong> The child is wronged by adultery.

YOUR wrong made this outcome a possibility. YOU decided this for your child when you chose adultery.

Pep </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, Pep, the child was wronged by adultery. BUT the child was also wronged by one of it's creators not following through with raising the person they brought into the world.

And MY xMM had a say in bringing this child into the world.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> YOU decided this </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WE decided together to BE PARENTS to this child. HE went back on his word and is not a parent to the child he promised me that he loved and will father in every way.

I'm saying two wrongs don't make a right. Yes, he had an A and I was a part of that. WE chose to bring this child into the world and HE chose to back out on his obligations.

It works for me, my family, him and his family, but it is not right for the child WE CREATED.

<small>[ February 05, 2005, 12:42 PM: Message edited by: CheerfulLittleOne ]</small>

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CLO- I'm sorry for your situation. I believe father's should have the right to terminate their parental rights in the first 12 wks of pregnancy to balance out Roe v. Wade. But no one has the right to agree to be a parent, then renege on that promise. I don't mean a "Let's make a baby" in the heat of passion agreement either.-

My opinion is very similar to Gardenbunny except I'd like to say that you cannot be m'd to someon for the rest of your life without honestly hating your spouse at some moment. In everyone's life there are good years and bad years. So yes, there are bad whole years in a m too! At that moment mm really did hate his wife and wanted a D, he may have really loved you and want to be with you and have a child with you, but until the D is final he can't by definition of an existing marital contract commit to you. As an ow you have no way of knowing whether or not this is just a bad time in his m. You are gambling with your life and the life of any child you concieve. As so many ow are single moms and exmm is back with w and family it was a bad bet.

I know alot of ow's fall back on the, "but he lied to me!" excuse. No, at the time he meant every word. He bad-mouthed his w, because he was still angry with her. Alot of ow want to believe that part, at least at first. Ow want to believe that the are special to mm, for a awhile you were. Ow wants to believe mm needs them, at the time he did. Almost all ow know for undeniable fact, the man is STILL married. That is the reality. As an ow, you are dealing with what is quite possibly a temporary situation, whether you WANT to believe it or not.

In the process of having the A with mm, YOU have betrayed another woman and mother. Not taking away mm's guilt, but you have some too. You knew you were taking a gamble, and you were hoping another woman's life would fall apart.

IMHO, bringing a child into that situation is IRRESPONSIBLE. Our country affords women the right to use b.c., or have children and to abort them if they choose. Men have NONE of those rights. When a man makes the only choice he has, which is NC, well you just have to live with it. He's not any more an ***dad then the woman is who chose to abort her baby is a murderer, or who gave her child up for adoption is an ***mom.

You also cannot be entirely surprised or blame bw if she chooses to have nothing to do with your child, after all you had the child betting on the destruction of her family. If bw welcomes your child into her home with loving arms, you owe her a debt of gratitude. No matter how bw chooses to handle the situation of your child she certainly doesn't deserve additional mistreatment by you, no matter how much pain you are in at the time.

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Mary- I was responding to the posts I'd read on the TOW board, sorry I shouldn't have generalized.

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clo </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> WE chose to bring this child into the world and HE chose to back out on his obligations.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Women have that right also. When the child is born and they realize they are not financially, mentally, emotionally prepared to give the child what he/she needs, they can opt for adoption. They are not an ***mom. They are a woman that loved their child enough to give it the best life possible, something they, at that time, are not able to provide. Should men not be allowed that same option?

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Happymom,
Great post and so very true too.

Thanks.

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CheerfulLittleOne:

And MY xMM had a say in bringing this child into the world.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Honey .... Lets discuss YOU, your choices, your ethical foundation and what YOU bring to the table NOW, today, in this week. Not why you choose poorly in the past, you cannot un-ring the bell ...

How do you view life differently after learning from your mistakes ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> THAT's interesting and exciting.

What is your NOW opinion of the situation of any two adults deciding to bring a baby into the world via the conduit of adultery ... good choice or bad choice?

Good choice, yes OK to do?

or

Bad choice, no not Ok to do?

Discuss the ethics of this decision and how one could make a good decision using their principles.

Pep

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> IMHO, bringing a child into that situation is IRRESPONSIBLE. Our country affords women the right to use b.c., or have children and to abort them if they choose. Men have NONE of those rights. When a man makes the only choice he has, which is NC, well you just have to live with it. He's not any more an ***dad then the woman is who chose to abort her baby is a murderer, or who gave her child up for adoption is an ***mom. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YES!

Perfect example:

It was in the news just last night, that the Childrens Hospital in my city have a new campaign.... ITS THE ABANDONED baby campaign. IF you drop your baby off at the hopsital... you will have NO reprocussions.. you do not have to give ANY NAME... the hospital will assume FULL responsibility for the child.. There has been one already dropped off there. No responsibility to the child, financially or otherwise. Period. Ever.

This is then seen as the noble thing for the mother to do for the child.

YES Roe v. Wade issue-- a father's aweful or horrid timing, circumstances in his life ALBEIT him being a party to the sex/conceiving a child-- it is NEVER, EVER considered as noble-- him relinquishing rights will NEVER be considered as the best interest of the child. PERIOD. HE WILL NEVER be afforded the right to financially ABANDON his child as the woman can.

As a woman NOT in the BW circumstances this will be very UNCLEAR until you ARE in the situation. I would not have seen this otherwise, I believe. I also do NOT think the OW has the DUTY to abort IF the man says. I AGREE and COMEND ANY woman for taking the harder road,and letting the child live. I am FOR the choice being it is our body.. but yet in my heart I am also PRO LIFE..... So I have NO problem w/even H's xow KEEPING the child. I have told H this when he says "but she would not abort- I had no choice"... I AGREE that he had no choice-- but I AGREE with any women who refuses to let a man choose.

SO- it comes down to, no matter what is right or wrong in the aftermath- as the WOMAN we MUST not wantanly give birth or not protect furture children. As the woman with choices-- a divorced MAN is NOT your HUSBAND STILL... it is just not a dignified choice to give birth as a single parent. It is NOT in the best interest of the child! They deserve 2 parents-- THIS INCLUDES SINGLE WOMEN GETTING pregnant AGREEABLY because a man wants it- or when they are single.

ACCIDENTS happen- and this is not even a religous standpoint in this post- BUT its women DECIDING and PLANNING these babies out of HEAT or LUST or FANTASY w/a man-- or because THE MAN wants it-- makes me SO ANGRY.

<small>[ February 05, 2005, 01:13 PM: Message edited by: giovanna123 ]</small>

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Of course that is poor decision Pepperband.


You HAVE to realize that when I chose to bring this child into the world that was thrusted upon ME (remember xMM lied about having a vasectomy- I was NOT ready for this) and xMM chose to raise this child WITH me, at that point in time, I did not consider this a situation where I would be raising an "OC". This was going to be OUR CHILD that we raised TOGETHER.

I would NOT have brought a child into this world in the situation you describe above. I would NOT have chosen to bring a child into this world out of an affair and where one of the parents is not fully commited to parenting the child.

I WOULD have done things differently if I knew he wasn't going to be around but I am VERY thankful that I did not because I now have a beautiful child.

<small>[ February 05, 2005, 01:23 PM: Message edited by: CheerfulLittleOne ]</small>

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CLO--- I feel for your situation. He said he had a vasectom... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

The more you ALLOW of yourself to show here-- SEE-- the more understanding and acceptance you will gain. Who here would SAY YOU ARE AN EVIL OW for what you had to deal with -- what is evil is what you do After IN YOUR LIFE.

I dont understand, then, WHY you are so hurtful and evil towards us HERE- when WE nor the BW in your life was the one who LIED, etc.

You should clearly see that our NC situations are ABSOLUTELY a different set of circumstances.. why the anger towards posters here w/NC???

Even the BW in your sitauation- you have NO idea REALLY what happened w/them and what MM lied about.

You have NO RIGHT to be angry at a woman who decided to STAY W/HER M AND HUSBAND after a devastating blow like an OW and OC---- SOMETIMES, MOST TIMES-- a tragedy or LOSING what you took for granted MAKES YOU CLEAR on what you DO WANT and LOVE-- its a part of life- its these things- similar to near death situations, that many times shapes up your life for the good. SHE, THE BW IN YOUR SITUTATION had a RIGHT to not divorce and to keep her H--- this is NO FAULT of hers-- this is her HUSBAND until that ink is dry.

Maybe O/T right now but I am interested (when you and Pep's convo is thru <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> in why you are so angry at US here or even at the BW for keeping her H? YOU wanted to keep him too, kwim?

And you should see by now that POSITIVE and explorative posts/discussions here WILL HELP you, will help US- regardless of titles. If you stayed here to feed your brain w/real life issues that need discussed- instead of hurtful ones-- YOU will BENEFIT and have a better view perhaps, even for the good of your child someday to help explain to him.

<small>[ February 05, 2005, 01:27 PM: Message edited by: giovanna123 ]</small>

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I've said before, I am not here to hurt anyone. I have a terrible way with words at times. I am also on the defense because of my OW title. Some people do disregard titles but there are clearly several BW's here who hate (understandably) all OW's.


I do, in my heart, feel that xMM's W is the reason behind NC because he was so adament about being a father. Regardless, the ultimate decision is his.

We OW's can't talk to MM anywhere. They just don't post on the internet. This site and others like them are the closest we can get to understanding what is going on- why they are not fulfilling their promise of fathering OC.

I also would like to understand how women could love a man that would do this to her and her family. I know that I would not be as forgiving as those of you here. I do think of xMM's W and I wonder- if she kicked him out, was in the process of D, why on earth would she want him back when he had a child with another woman? THAT makes it worth fighting for the M? It doesn't make sense to me but I hear it's one of those "control" situations. She doesn't want him, but she doesn't want anyone else to have him either.

Who knows.

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CLo-

Every situation is different. I don't know about yours, but in mine my family went through several very traumatic events in a very short time. My m was only 4yrs old and my h began having second thoughts about our m. He basically took the cowards way out and ran away from home for 2mos. He learned the hard way that you cannot run away from your problems. When he had to face our situation anyway, he found out he'd rather do that with me then without me.

okay, that doesn't make sense...I'll just have to say it out laoud first, before i write it. Our baby died. I think I did along with him. My h talked about him for the first time this past month when our second son was born.

We've both had alot of grieving to do...and healing. Ilove my h very much and am glad we got through it.

Everybody here has a different situation. Has faced and overcome challenges. In your situation, exmm has a mentally ill wife. That can be devastating, not only to exmm, but his bw as well. She may blame her illness on driving him away.

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happymom,
I'm so sorry about your baby <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />
I can't imagine. It must have been so hard on you to lose your child and then have your H leave too. I just can't imagine.

You're right, even though we are all in similar situations, they are indeed very unique in their own way.

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CLO -

Get a clue. Grow up. Go back and read some of your comments from posts today. They sound very childish.

Believe what you want out of your MM, but the bottom line is most MM looked at OW as an easy piece of *ss. Reality is they could have gotten it somewhere else, but you happened to be in the right place at the right time. Lucky you.

I don't see many men period posting on this board and certainly didn't see any the two times I lurked over at that "other" sick board.

Men, in general, (there's always an exception or two) don't express their feelings the same as women do.

Lady, you don't have years of history, family, kids etc. with MM. If I were you, I'd refrain from making statements like this one you made "I know that I would not be as forgiving as those of you here". You're not in those shoes.

And.......... then of course we're hearing your side of things that certainly your MM's BS is mentally ill and out of it. Doesn't that justify it all.

I'll stop now, because people like you don't listen anyway.

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by happymom:
<strong> CLO- I'm sorry for your situation. I believe father's should have the right to terminate their parental rights in the first 12 wks of pregnancy to balance out Roe v. Wade. But no one has the right to agree to be a parent, then renege on that promise. I don't mean a "Let's make a baby" in the heat of passion agreement either.-

My opinion is very similar to Gardenbunny except I'd like to say that you cannot be m'd to someon for the rest of your life without honestly hating your spouse at some moment. In everyone's life there are good years and bad years. So yes, there are bad whole years in a m too! At that moment mm really did hate his wife and wanted a D, he may have really loved you and want to be with you and have a child with you, but until the D is final he can't by definition of an existing marital contract commit to you. As an ow you have no way of knowing whether or not this is just a bad time in his m. You are gambling with your life and the life of any child you concieve. As so many ow are single moms and exmm is back with w and family it was a bad bet.

I know alot of ow's fall back on the, "but he lied to me!" excuse. No, at the time he meant every word. He bad-mouthed his w, because he was still angry with her. Alot of ow want to believe that part, at least at first. Ow want to believe that the are special to mm, for a awhile you were. Ow wants to believe mm needs them, at the time he did. Almost all ow know for undeniable fact, the man is STILL married. That is the reality. As an ow, you are dealing with what is quite possibly a temporary situation, whether you WANT to believe it or not.

In the process of having the A with mm, YOU have betrayed another woman and mother. Not taking away mm's guilt, but you have some too. You knew you were taking a gamble, and you were hoping another woman's life would fall apart.

IMHO, bringing a child into that situation is IRRESPONSIBLE. Our country affords women the right to use b.c., or have children and to abort them if they choose. Men have NONE of those rights. When a man makes the only choice he has, which is NC, well you just have to live with it. He's not any more an ***dad then the woman is who chose to abort her baby is a murderer, or who gave her child up for adoption is an ***mom.

You also cannot be entirely surprised or blame bw if she chooses to have nothing to do with your child, after all you had the child betting on the destruction of her family. If bw welcomes your child into her home with loving arms, you owe her a debt of gratitude. No matter how bw chooses to handle the situation of your child she certainly doesn't deserve additional mistreatment by you, no matter how much pain you are in at the time. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Happymom, I'd say your opinion is a polictal one and not for everyone. We all have to LIVE with the choices we make in life. How could you put on ANYONE the thought that she terminated her pregnancy and could not live with killing something? Okay, let's give ANY man mm or sm the option if a woman gets pregnant. I'd say you have a lot more woman pregnant aborting and probally at some point close to if not commiting suicide. The mm had an option before he unzipped his pants. Excuse me but not every woman does this to trap a man......that would be like saying that every bw who gets pregnant right after a affair happens or oc is known about does it on purpose.

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CLO- Thank you, but I only talk about it (because my ic says I have to, bossy ic that she is) and because I take responsibility for MY part of the marital problems we had then and the ones we have now. I withdrew from everyone, from my entire life, wouldn't/couldn't be there for my h when he needed me most. Many things can cause a couple to drift apart. They both have to take responsibility for it. However, an A is NEVER a solution. It just causes more pain.

I can forgive anyone, but not until they understand what they are being forgiven for and have or are in the process of making amends.

Forgiveness is earned, Grace is forgiving someone when they don't deserve it and have not earned it. As a bw I forgave my wh. I did not,however, show him Grace. That he can get from God.

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Nerlycrzy:
<strong> clo </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> WE chose to bring this child into the world and HE chose to back out on his obligations.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Women have that right also. When the child is born and they realize they are not financially, mentally, emotionally prepared to give the child what he/she needs, they can opt for adoption. They are not an ***mom. They are a woman that loved their child enough to give it the best life possible, something they, at that time, are not able to provide. Should men not be allowed that same option? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Basically if you think about it they have made that option by NC.....am I right??????

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by happymom:
<strong> CLO- Thank you, but I only talk about it (because my ic says I have to, bossy ic that she is) and because I take responsibility for MY part of the marital problems we had then and the ones we have now. I withdrew from everyone, from my entire life, wouldn't/couldn't be there for my h when he needed me most. Many things can cause a couple to drift apart. They both have to take responsibility for it. However, an A is NEVER a solution. It just causes more pain.

I can forgive anyone, but not until they understand what they are being forgiven for and have or are in the process of making amends.

Forgiveness is earned, Grace is forgiving someone when they don't deserve it and have not earned it. As a bw I forgave my wh. I did not,however, show him Grace. That he can get from God. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Happymom I can agree with this statement your making, although it's one hard thing to do <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> As I see it though, if you can forgive then you have grace <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

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NTMO/Marysway:

I don't ahve time to read this superdooperthread (but it looked good from what I did see <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) BUT, I did want to clarify that I was not trying to jump all over you.

It was one of your initial comments that provoked the point I was trying to make. Nothing personal.

It seems, in this life, all we ever hear (generally speaking, yep) is how horrible a man is for wanting NC but the same negative feelings are NOT provoked towards a mom who also wants her child to have NC.

That is why I asked why an OW could not admit aloud that there could be very VALID reasons for NC. (or something like that).

It was not meant towards you specefically nor to create a feeling of defensiveness.

I am still & probably always will be perturbed @ OW for the difficult situation she put us in (not referring to A but OW detestable behavior during C w/ OC that resulted in no other choice but NC----MY POV). But I'm trying.

I triggered myself this week like a dork & I'm paying for it emotionally. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> It happens sometimes. kwim?
*************************************
CLO: I can see & understand why you don't see yourself as OW, but can be considered it by a technical default. LOL Chalked up as not one of your brightest moments hanh?lol

I'm glad you didn't abort your child & proud of any woman who chooses not to. Even if you aren't pro-life, I am & I was glad to hear that our OW didn't abort either. I would never have wanted that.

but anyhoo....enough TJ from me.

xoxoxoxxox
kt

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