Can you tell others here what the signs were ?

I see posts all the time that SCREAM that the A is still ongoing.

Of course we may feel it in our gut to an extent, but our gut sometimes is wrong because we have been betrayed before and a lot of it can be mistrust and hurt from the past haunting us.

I guess what I would like to see is a thread where other BSs can see what the warning signs are.

What were the signs?

How was WS acting towards you?

Was he catering to OW and you could not figure out why.

Was he arguing with YOU about wanting to come to pick ups and drop offs, etc?

How much was OW calling your house, and what was the excuse(s) for her continued calls?

I've had my stomach into knots reading many posts and at times have called to this to the W's attention-- but I always feel bad, like I'm hurting them more-- etc. Its hard to see it from the outside and not be able to get the BW to see just how her H should be acting IF he is out of the A.

My H and I have had mega problems in the past 2 years-- but there is one thing that was always obvious and was never questioned. He was NOT seeing OC's mother - and he had NC. Everything was on the up and up when it is, its ENTIRELY obvious. There is not a peep from OW who is cut off completely by the MM if there is NC.

If there is C-- there is usually no issue or argument about the W being involved for pick ups, etc.There is rarely a time when the H is alone w/OW anywhere, and he does not make phone calls to OW without W present, so she is not insecure and worried or Lord forbid, feeling left out in ANY way. It just should not be the case!!

Seems there are common signs by the H (irritation, arguments, keeping W away from OW at all costs -- under the notion that the OW will pull away C if I bring you around -- or if H does not cater to OW she will freak, etc)

C can be a risky situation. I see a lot of A's ongoing without the W knowing about it, when there is contact.

Anyone care to share?

<small>[ March 08, 2005, 09:12 AM: Message edited by: giovanna123 ]</small>

Hey Gio,

Unfortunately, there is a lot more risk with C. The first time that we tried contact the affair was re-kindled. And yes, he showed signs.

Irritation with me for wanting to know anything about OW/OC.

Insisted on going to visitation at OW's house without me present, or OW would insist that visitation was only allowed during times I was working.

Unnecessary phone calls to OW when I was not around.

Making himself very attractive for visitations (shaving, cologne, nice clothes, etc.). He said at the time he wanted to make her jealous (hmm..) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

But, this only lasted about two weeks before OW outed him. I guess she didn't want to ride that rollercoaster again....

I feel quite confident that at this point the affair is over and he's walking the straight and narrow, but I'm constantly checking up on him. I don't know if I'll ever be able to stop, and I think he understands. If he wants to, he's going to, no matter what I do to keep tabs on him.

We talk a lot more than we used to, and I stopped being a "stuffer" and get emotional when before I would just withdraw. His affair changed our relationship in positive and negative ways.

I truly feel for those women and men experiencing a second or third or fourth infidelity. It's hard to believe that the wool can be pulled over one's eyes after the initial betrayal, considering most BS's are much more observant after an affair. But it happens all the time.

In many cases, the WS just learns better ways to cover his/her @ss. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Hugs,
AVNL

AV-- was it you who was at work one day and H and OW were at home and then riding to court together to sign parenting agreements? And then OW was outside smoking on your porch w/ a smirk on her face?

I remember reading that- I think it was you....??

I feel quite confident that at this point the affair is over and he's walking the straight and narrow, but I'm constantly checking up on him. I don't know if I'll ever be able to stop, and I think he understands. If he wants to, he's going to, no matter what I do to keep tabs on him. See, this is exactly what I do NOT want to be doing. Hi, haven't posted on this board much lately, mostly on GQ2. OC was born 1.5 weeks ago. WH attended the birth without my knowledge and the A has continued despite WH's denials and us being in MC. I found all this out the day after OC was born. My gut told me and others on MB told me the A was still on but I did not want to really see it. I told WH in MC last night NC with OW or I am gone, period. They spoke on the phone more than 20 hours per month! Umm, does she have a life? Guess not, LOL.

signs:

1. Grew a beard, mustach or other facial hair.
2. Started worrying about his weight.
3. Started getting home from work later and later (so he could talk on the cell to OW)
4. Became hyper critical of me.
5. Would offer to go to store or other errands in the evening. (so he could talk on the cell to OW)
6.New underwear.
7. Kept cell phone in his locked truck which I do not have a key to.
8. Refused my offer of help to clean out said truck.

I know there are more but that is what I can remember right now.

Faithful, I am so very sorry to hear your update.
Sad- and thats all I can muster up for these situations.

Can you tell us how you discovered all of this-- did OW bring this to your attention after OC was born?

With regard to OC/OW issues, specifically, how did he act when and if you spoke of OC's birth--- contact, etc.? Did he keep you an outsider?

Again, I am so sorry to hear this update. How are you doing in all of this? Is H at home still?

Gio, I think one thing that BS's need to recognize and accept (and believe me when I say that it's hard, especially since some WS's will guilt BS's into believing it's their fault) is that WE HAVE NO CONTROL OVER WS!!! More times than not, this is not BS's issue, this is a personal issue deep within WS. Signs, you ask? Well, guess that depends on how serious the issue is. It's hard to explain but I'll try. My WH indicated to me that he has dual realities. When he's with me at home in our family-like setting, that is his reality and what he says to me he truly believes to be true. But when he's with OW, that is his reality and he truly believes what he tells her is true. Sound like bullsh*t? Sure it does, but it happens. I think all WS's need to deeply analyze their behaviors (which they can't do alone, they need intense tx), otherwise, it's a pattern that will continue and they will continue to live miserable lives. The only indication I saw with our current relapse was that husband was pretty much a [censored] to me and I could tell something was wrong. Of course I believed the A was over because he had convinced me and I had let him control my feelings and emotions. NO MORE!! I have taken a stand for myself and have started soul-searching to learn the true ME. And nothing will change with your relationship, nothing, until WS admits he/she has a problem and is truly, honestly willing to dig deep into those personal issues to help "fix" themselves. We can't "fix" them. We actually contribute to the issues, just as OW/OM do. Make sense? I know I'm rambling but I'm truly starting to accept what is actually happening in my own life and I realize it's up to ME (not WS) to change ME for the better, and vice versa. BS's-make a stand for yourself!!! Take your emotions out of the equation, and stand up for yourselves!

gio, my WH is still at home however I have retained an attorney with the intention of filing legal separation. He does not know this BTW. Last night in MC I told him I will no longer be a party to this triangle. He has promised NC with OW but not certain how to do so and ensure that OC is ok. I will give him a little time to get DNA testing and make a plan. Otherwise, he is GONE. KWIM?

I had been asking many times if he was back in C with OW. Deny, deny, deny. Even in front of our MC. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> The day OC was born he told me he was stuck in traffic. When he finally told me how far away he was coming from I KNEW he had gone to OC birth. Still denied! Next day my mother told me about h's excessive cell phone use (he works for my parents). I confronted H and after much yelling got some of the story. Yes, he attended the birth. C section. Baby was blue and in the NICU. I allowed the daily C with OW til OC was out of the NICU and safely home. Now I am putting my foot down. Oh and I got the cell phone records and that is when I saw the extent of the C with OW. 1100 to 1300 minutes per month the last two months. I am sickened and enraged over all this. She would literally call him and two minutes later call again. This would go on all day long.

Sorry for ranting and thanks for asking. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> there is a lot more risk with C. The first time that we tried contact the affair was re-kindled. And yes, he showed signs.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have to agree here. In my experiance with my affair, there was a period of NC after Oc was born. When she was 5 months old contact started, just for visits, by the time she was 9 months the affair had started again.

Of course when contact was happening for the visits, neither of our spouses were around and neither of us were willing to work with our spouses for visits with Oc.

<small>[ March 08, 2005, 10:04 AM: Message edited by: Crazymum ]</small>

Gio, yes. It was my H that went to the courthouse with OW and all that. Yes, we fought horribly after that one (LBing Galore!).

And come to think of it, my H and I have been fighting a lot lately. He just showed up at my office and was snooping around my desk, said he was just "checking up" on me. He's been working late the last couple of nights.

I suppose he could be cheating on me right now, since he's showing some signs....but, I am confident that if I were to find out he was cheating, a divorce would be a welcome end.

I've seen him as a wandering spouse, there is no limit to the deceit. He would lie, beg, steal....whatever it takes to get away with it. But I'm smart and very observant.

I don't mean to threadjack....let me just say that the BS really has no control, like Michelle said, and if he does it again that's his choice. I am determined to end the marriage if there is another infidelity.

AVNL

I know that men care about their children-- many of them- dont anyone take what I'm about to say, wrong.

But really---- men are usually not worry wards over children as we are as mothers. The way I see it-- when the WS is obsessed with calling "OC" all the time-- its a dead giveaway.

My H and myself are stepparents and we both agree that there is no reason in usually days to call your children to see if they are "OK" every day (especially babies) if you don't live with them. Men not living w/children, that is. They know the child is ok if them mother is not calling to say there is a problem, etc.

And we also know, those of us who were or are single mothers-- that we don't need to call our ex every time the child so much as sneezes or breathes to inform them <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Anyway, Faithful and AV- glad to hear that you are putting your foot down. I dont know how you have endured as much as you have thus far. You may think that you have been hard to deal with at times (from H's perspective) but you are really collected from what I can tell (for the most part). Where did that get you, though----- taken advantage of AGAIN. grrr-- I am so happy to see you both are changing your tunes in order to take care of you and yours.

Keep up your strength-much respect to the amount of sanity you are able to apply at this point!!!! You are certainly soldiers in my book.

AV- I hope and pray you are wrong about your H. I do see some red flags in your recent posts about your situation.

I know what you mean about our lack of control over the situation. We do have some control-- and that is over ourselves and not allowing our lives to fall apart due to others' indiscretions! I am not a huge beleiver in Plan A or even B (no more plans after some point!!) After serial cheating-- I think enough is enough when it comes to US planing these routes of keeping our M, etc. Its exhausting and there comes a time when you (like Faithful and AV) have to LIVE FOR YOU and start getting your life back WITH or WITHOUT the WS!

To respond to your earlier question:

My H acted TO MY FACE, as though all he wanted to do was please me and save our marriage.

Also, he had many excuses as to why he wanted to keep me as far away from OW as possible ("you're too upset, she's too upset, you work and go to school/ aren't here enough, OW will not let me see OC with you around....etc")

He would go back to OW and say I was making demands of him, being unreasonable, blah, blah.

Then, he started sleeping in bed at night with a pillow lodged between us, that's when the red flags really started to go up. OW called me the three days later to out him.

Mostly he just withdrew from me, first emotionally, then physically. But he did it slow and easy, like he didn't want the bomb to drop, just kinda float down around our marriage. I'm sure he would've kept it up if OW hadn't called me.

There, I guess I have ONE thing I can THANK OW for! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Thanks for the concern....are things okay with you and your H?

AVNL

Gio, I think it is a very good idea on doing a list of signs of continued A ...
we know the signs of WS in A ... but they are not necessarily the same ones of continued A ...

Disclaimer: The sad truth is that even when deep down we know the truth - continued A, even when everyone else can see the continued A, we will only see what we are capable of handle at that time ... I think we have a self-preserve mechanism, we will deal with things when we feel ready too ... End of disclaimer ...

Signs (from last false recovery - and here comes my own Disclaimer - I want to believe that he was not in a PA but I'm sure that he was in an EA with OW at this time ...
When I feel ready to deal with this, I'll ask for the truth ... which brings me to another thing: Don't ask questions when you are not ready for the answers)

- withdrawal
- getting mad or angry about little things
- traffic and lines at the stores get really really bad ... some of them might last hours ...
- having to 'work' on days off
- 'You are never going to trust me again'
- started spending more time with OC at OW house
- after we agreed on me checking his calls to regain trust on him, he was mad because I was 'stalking' him ... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
- OW did not wanted OC spending time at home anymore (she does not want OC around me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> but says she wants OC to have C with DD, saying all C would be done at her house in her presence ...)
- continued calls, all the time, every day ... claiming to be about 'just OC' ... what? is OW telling you everytime she changes his diapers, what color was? how smelly it was? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
- cellphone becomes an extended part of the body ...
- refuse to go to MC because 'everything is fine between us, we don't need it'
- in my case, about making CS and visitations legal - 'I'll handle it my way' ...
- about talking to OW - if I call OW right now, what would she tell me? - answer: You only want to get everyone in more trouble ...
I asked this same question a couple of weeks ago ... answer: If you want to, I'm not longer in any type of relationship with her ... call her ...

Now, this is very tricky, this is like the effects of antibiotics on infections ... after using the same medication for a while it stops working because the virus/infection has find another way of making you sick ...
If WS are in a continued A, they will learn how to cover themselves <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

The 'good' thing is that after WS living with OW, they get more possessive ... wait... wait ... let me finish ...
If WS is in a continued A, OW will let you know about it, one way or another because now, they don't want ot go back to the shadows ...

=================
From Michelle
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My WH indicated to me that he has dual realities. When he's with me at home in our family-like setting, that is his reality and what he says to me he truly believes to be true. But when he's with OW, that is his reality and he truly believes what he tells her is true. Sound like bullsh*t? Sure it does, but it happens. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Heard that one too!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Although my XH & OW say the PA ended shortly after the birth of his daughter in 2002, which I am not convinced of. The EA continued once he came home in 2003 & lasted right up until I put him out.

His continued protection of her - wanting to make sure we never talked again.

His refusal to have DNA or legal V set up. He didn't want to upset her????

I never went with him to pick up OC

I did not know where OW & OC lived.

I found her phone number by snooping thru his cell - he had a fit.

If I brought up the subject of why OW constantly used OC to destroy our M & why he let her, he would get angry & say I had insecurity issues - all blame laid at my feet.

The emotional A, (and I now believe that is all it is since he is not with her), was never going to go away, it may never go away, he seems to feel a need to care for her since she is the mother of his only child. OW is not an independent woman, never has been, she lives off the system & has babies to try to gain a H & to keep from working. He needs to feel needed which I guess he never did with me.

Now of course he is taking steps to show me that the EA is over as well, ah.... kinda late in the game for that don't ya think. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

What I don't understand about these men,from what I have seen from siggy lines, most of the Oc's are really young. Why do they have to call every day let alone 8 times a day?? The kids are to young to understand the phone and even remember it.

CM -

Thats exactly it - there is NO reason to talk to OW several times a day when OC is still a baby, what is there to know how many times the baby ate, pooped, spit up etc. OC certainly can't talk then so H's r talking to OW about what?????

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have to agree here. In my experiance with my affair, there was a period of NC after Oc was born. When she was 5 months old contact started, just for visits, by the time she was 9 months the affair had started again...
Of course when contact was happening for the visits, neither of our spouses were around and neither of us were willing to work with our spouses for visits with Oc.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think Crazymum's input, as a former OW and BS-- is valuable. Thanks for your honesty about this.

I also pasted some of the HUGE FLAGS, common ones from AV, Mily, BisFree and MicheleHall's posts here:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The only indication I saw with our current relapse was that husband was pretty much a [censored] to me and I could tell something was wrong </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YES-- and the FORMERws is NOT like this, he is gentle and kind- even while he is suffering himself.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Unnecessary phone calls to OW when I was not around.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">THERE IS NEVER, EVER a reason for this, PERIOD! If OW tricks him with another number and he answers- he should willingly say "I'll call you back" - when his WIFE can be there for her security. Anyone with a heart, let alone with the knowledge that the W has the SPECIFIC need to be there--- WILL NOT need to talk to OW, ever, in private again. Nor should anyone expect the W to accept this with a smile- or without anger/hurt!!! This is a HUGE red flag!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If I brought up the subject of why OW constantly used OC to destroy our M & why he let her, he would get angry & say I had insecurity issues - all blame laid at my feet. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">grrrrr-- this stuff here-- will just plain make you CRAZY because it is ruthless and sick. No FORMERws would think the INSECURITY is not WARRANTED!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> OW did not wanted OC spending time at home anymore (she does not want OC around me but says she wants OC to have C with DD, saying all C would be done at her house in her presence ...)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So typical. The OW can and will pull this on her own-- HOWEVER, when it comes to your H's part----no husband should EVER put the needs of or allow ANOTHER WOMAN, let alone the "OW" in front of your needs (unless BW is demanding things that actually would harm a child-- and that is SO rare).... Even for OC, the needs of his WIFE/HOME/BC must be considered first and foremost in any reconciliation or it will NEVER work.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Making himself very attractive for visitations (shaving, cologne, nice clothes, etc.). He said at the time he wanted to make her jealous </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">GAG me -- are these men that stupid to thing we don't notice THIS! I guess so, huh? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
Not to mention, no one wants to make anyone jealous if they are not still "into" them- they should be indiferent to OW and her needs and her life, period.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> His continued protection of her - wanting to make sure we never talked again.

His refusal to have DNA or legal V set up. He didn't want to upset her????

I never went with him to pick up OC

I did not know where OW & OC lived.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">HUGE HOT FLAMING RED FLAGS, each one of these signs!!!

In addition, an OW who is truly and xow and living her life w/o H again--- should have a TINY understanding of what she would feel like to have such a HUGE intrusion on her life-- let alone -- making all of these aweful demands to leave out the W.. but thats a pipedream I suppose?????

B/CM--

That is what I'm talking about-- they do not have to "call OC" to check up between visits-- expecially coming from a man. I can see once in between visits if the baby is healthy.

Men who are not with the mothers of their small babies typcially do not call everyday to "talk to oc" its bull- total complete bull.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> YES-- and the FORMERws is NOT like this, he is gentle and kind- even while he is suffering himself.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is the BIGGEST indicator for us. This is my litmus test. Nio cannot be kind to me while seeing OW. It is impossible for him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> THERE IS NEVER, EVER a reason for this, PERIOD </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that's not nec. true. I hate OW. I'd rather not know if she calls. I'd rather not be in the house or the room. I LOVE talking to OC on the phone, but if OW hears that I do, Nio gets his [censored] chewed, so I try not to....Lord knows I make up for it in snuggles when they're here. OW is a lying manipulative kooze and for my own sanity, I choose not to discuss anything with her...I've tried, and SHE bit me in the butt (nope, I'm not bitter <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> ).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> In addition, an OW who is truly and xow and living her life w/o H again--- should have a TINY understanding of what she would feel like to have such a HUGE intrusion on her life-- let alone -- making all of these aweful demands to leave out the W.. but thats a pipedream I suppose?????
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In most cases, I'd say yes. Seems Ent has worked it out well for her familia <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> . Wish we could. I think our Ent is the exception, not the rule, though. Sad for those of us that have a STOW, but I am happy (and a little jealous of) for Ent.

- Kimmy

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> OW did not wanted OC spending time at home anymore (she does not want OC around me but says she wants OC to have C with DD, saying all C would be done at her house in her presence ...) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">H Xow was simialar to this. When contact first started happening, it was to be at her house with just H there. He would come home telling me how she was hitting on him. As Oc got older I was fiannly able to vist with H, we brought our kids along, but it was always at Ow home on her time table.

The only time Xow let Oc come to our home was last summer when she was desperate for a babysitter, of course along with Oc came her other two kids. When she no longer needed a babysitter, she wanted NC again.

As for dealing with Xmm and his W for visits. In the begining I was hesitant to let W around my daughter (oc). W had made threats, a lot of threats, this wasn't just passed on from Xmm mouth, but heard with my own two ears. These threats were before the affair re-sarted.

For awhile I only let Xmm take the kids. My H would be here when Xmm picked up and dropped them off, of course Xmm had to always start something(blowing kisses to H, showing up with flowers and teddybears for me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ) When I started seeing that W was making an effort to treat the kids right, I let them go to their house. She even went to some school events for my daughter. Things were civil in the end.