We're not building a marriage....<P>we're ripping apart the foundation with our bare hands.<P>I can't seem to help you, or know how to help you, all I seem to do is make you angrier...we keep reacting to each other and to each crisis instead of being there for each other.....<P>I feel like I am making things worse for you...<P>I am truly sorry that your ex is brainwashing your son, and that he is spouting crap that obviously comes straight from her...<P>I understand and feel all your frustration, regarding the fact that your ex's mother is holding you responsible for everything, and that no one here in any position of authority will help you, or do what is right...<P>I see that you are being torn apart...<P>by everything, not just the phone call tonight from your son telling you that he thinks every 2nd weekend is fair, that the spring break should be split between mommy and daddy..(although mom works, so where the he!! is he going to be?)...your 8 yr. old is being used against you....<P>I see that a court judgment that bankrupted us, to get it into place, is being tossed aside by her, and you feel helpless and don't know what to do or where to turn.... <P>I am asking you to understand that when you fly off the handle though, my reaction is to do the same....there is too much anger, too much frustration, and neither the dog nor our son asked for any of this.....<P>I don't know what to do anymore....<P>I don't know how to help you...<P>I do know that being around me is not helping...so I am tempted to leave...<P>I just can't take the fact that our lives together (you me, and our son), come to a grinding halt whenever there is a problem from your ex....or that our very lives have to revolve around those problems...or that so much stress is introduced that we both stop behaving like adults...<P>maybe I'm just selfish....or maybe I am just tired...<P>you have all these same emotions as well, and I see you going through everyting... I just don't understand why everything has to fall apart...<P>Deut I love you, but I don't know what I'm <BR>doing anymore.....<P>somebody threw me off the ship and didn't throw the life preserver....<P><BR>If it will help you to clear your mind, and to give you some space and peace, where you can think straight, see options, focus and then act, tell me, and I will go..<P>neither one of us is happy right now, and down deep inside, I feel neither one of us has been for awhile....maybe we've been going through the motions, or maybe we really want to succeed, but just can't cope with everything else all at the same time..I fell you hae been 'faking it' for awhile ....<P>if you stayed here with us after your affair, just because of the guilt and shame, or out of fear, or of 'doing the right thing', please do us both a favour....<P>just look at the way we are both reacting...and we both know that this is only the beginning..the [censored] will really start to roll once court proceedings are under way...a child's future is at stake, but so is our marriage, our son's future and everybody's well being....I can't stand to watch this rip us apart.......again....<P>there is so much more to say....so much more to talk about, but we never do, Deut, we always start, we get too emotional, and once again, everything gets dropped...the subject is too painful for you....<P>living like this is too painful for me...<P>in 24 hours, we have gone from a great night, a great day (in which I secured my 1st house cleaning client).....to yelling, stomping, slamming doors and not speaking....<P>this is what I mean when I say that we (our marriage, our son, our home, our very lives) do not take precedence (us not coming first)....this situation with her has to stop being the unbrella over our lives that it is..... <P><BR>and I don't know anymore...I am at a complete loss...<P>you are on the phone with her mom right now, so I will end this post now....<P>but I invite you, Deut, to respond to me here...maybe we can discuss it out here, since we can't seem to in our lives....<P>love you<P>Dylan<BR>love you....

Oh Dylan, you poor beleaguered thing, and that is not sarcasm.<P>Years ago on a flight home from the third funeral of the year I read one of those magazines, you know "United Airlines Today" or whatever. Anyway the article was on stress and at the time I was pregnant, several important people had died, we were moving to another country, we had bought a house. In terms of stress points we were off the chart. I laughed and said, "Lets not pay any attention to anything we say for the next year"<P>For sure we didn't do that, but we kept it in mind. You too, stop and think about the stress you both are under right now. From previous posts, it is more than significant, it is darn near overwhelming.<P>Do not expect that you will be totally rational, don't expect it of Deut either.<BR>After all you are both just humans eh?<BR>Try to be gentle with yourselves and with each other. <P>Everybody hates us here in Toronto, but some of us like the "rest of Canada".<P>Take care, don't despair.

First of all, I want to apologize for anything that comes out as childish or unreasonable, because right now I'm in about the worst headspace possible. I'm angry and devastated beyond anything anybody who has not been through this could possibly understand. I know you can begin to understand, and you have an idea of how bad I am hurting, but you can never KNOW until you experience it. (Which you NEVER will)<P>But you are being and have been awfully Martian about this, right from the begin. The sadist (my SBCCPASH ex) flares up and you react- you take on the anger and pain that I'm feeling and instead of the one receiving the support, I'm put into the role of the one giving it. ie: staying calm and listening, offering a shoulder, etc. <P>I will respond here, because I tried to find a men's forum, or Dad's forum for some support, but guess what... If I see another Mommy's forum, or Single Moms forum, or Mothers against deadbeat Dad's forum I'm going to put my head through this computer screen!!!!!! I'm probably just to frustrated to use a *(&(*&%%)*&^)(*& search engine. <P>So on to the response:<P>>>We're not building a marriage....<BR>>>we're ripping apart the foundation with our >>bare hands.<P>I disagree. You can look at it that way if you want, and doing so will probably bring it about quicker. I believe that the more you get through as a couple, the more you grow together. The more battles you fight together, and win (or lose gracefully) the stronger the partnership. That's why I'm so frustrated with your insistence that the sadist is wrecking our marriage. She's not. She may be trying to make our lives a living hell... actually MY life a living hell, but it's our decision as to how we let that affect us.<P>>>I can't seem to help you, or know how to >>help you, all I seem to do is make you >>angrier...we keep reacting to each other >>and to each crisis instead of being there >>for each other.....<BR>>>I feel like I am making things worse for >>you...<P>Honestly, tonight you did. Way worse. This *&% with the sadist is tearing me apart, it's got me way WAY stressed, I don't need you going into a rage over it. Especially when I seem to be the target for that rage. I know it's probably not true, and that you don't mean it that way, but it's the way I've been interpreting it. You get snappy towards me, as if it were all my fault.<BR>Look at it this way, I'm doing dinner, got dinner more or less under control and my son calls and blah blah blah, the proverbial [censored] hits the fan. Now I get off the phone, stressed out. All I wanted to do was go back to what I was doing, get you up to date and go on with the evening. I obviously can't do anything about it now, right? And you know I'm upset, but it seems like you just have to get more upset than me... then our little angel needs batteries for his thingy and of course I'm willing to help him, so now I'm looking for an adapter, freaking about my other son, still in dishes mode and primed up to put the pasta on and instead of getting comfort from you (mind you thanks a lot for the help with the dishes ), I've got to put on my stress filters and try to pretend like I'm in control of things, my own silly Martian way of letting you know you don't have to go on the warpath right now about this... then I couldn't find the freaking adapter and you snap off something about dinner and get all pissed off as I go to put the pot on... now I'm feeling a bit stressed, and then that dam dog (whom I also love) starts whining and barking.... YEEAAARRRGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!<P>Emotional need NUMBER 1. If I'm freaking out about something, please don't add to my stress. I made you guys dinner and tried to retreat into my comfort spot (right here n front of PC) to try and find some support in the form of a forum for Dads with this type of problem. Not the first time I've looked and not the first time I've come up empty, but this time not totally empty... just as I get to something that I'm starting to relate to... the dam dog starts up again... I yelled at her to 'shut up'. Yes it was louder than normal, sorry. But at this point, I'm about as near a nervous breakdown as I've ever been and didn't need to hear it. I sure as he!! didn't need to be told shortly afterwards that I should leave my home. And I sure as sure as he!! didn't need for you to bring our boy in here and start to stress out with him. Dammit, all I needed was a hug from you... and some time alone, with no stress. But somehow we managed to get ALL the stress here , into this room. Not only that but all on this SIDE of the room. I realize that this upsets you (the sadist cr@p) and if you are so stressed about it that you can't offer a 'passive support' system, I understand. Believe me. In fact I appreciate having you on my side more than you can imagine. As far as dealing with that b!tch, I'd be nowhere without you, and we both know that, but if there is ever again a time that you can't offer the support and indeed feel that your stress will just worsen the situation, then please understand that I may just need to be left alone for a couple of hours. <P>>>I am truly sorry that your ex is >>brainwashing your son, and that he is >>spouting crap that obviously<BR>>>comes straight from her...<P>Not your fault.<P>>>I understand and feel all your frustration, >>regarding the fact that your ex's mother is >>holding you responsible for everything, and >>that no one here in any position of >>authority will help you, or do what is >>right...<P>I know you understand, and I know that you understand better than anyone else on the face of this planet the scope and breadth of my inner turmoil and pain and frustration. And I have no doubt whatsoever that you feel a lot of that pain and frustration too. That's because you love me and Peter too. (Ok there! I've said his name!)<P>>>I am asking you to understand that when you >>fly off the handle though, my reaction is >>to do the same....there is too much anger, >>too much frustration, and neither the dog >>nor our son asked for any of this.....<P>Nope they didn't. Neither did I, and neither did you nor did Peter. As for the dog, I did yell louder than required. As for the youngun, I deliberately left the kitchen because I didn't feel that I could effectively parent, especially when he's being difficult. As for me flying off the handle, I'm not sure what you mean. Yes I did raise my voice and was quite testy, but it's not like I threw another "throw the folded sweater onto the couch as hard as I could" fit. (That's still a classic) <P>>>I don't know what to do anymore....<BR>>>I don't know how to help you...<P>Neither do I, hon, except to keep going. Keep fighting, keep being a good Dad and documenting the he!! out of everything that happens. <BR>As for helping me, you know darn well that you are more help than any man could ever ask for. You always know what's going on, what has gone on and when. You remember stuff that's important and are able to communicate it effectively. As for helping ME, on a personal not, stop trying to take over my anger and pain for me. For sure you are allowed to get frustrated and I know you love Pete profoundly and are hurt by this too. From time to time though, let me get angry and hurt and if I need a quite shoulder, be there. If I need someone to tell me to calm down till tomorrow when I can do something about it, you can say that. And if I need to be alone, to recuperate my state of mind, for crying out loud don't bring the boy into where I've gone to retreat and start fighting with him! (that being written with a lighter tone than maybe comes across... see, I'm feeling better already)<P>>>I do know that being around me is not >>helping...so I am tempted to leave...<P>Things like this definitely don't help. Whenever you say things like this, part of me shuts down, as if in preparation for it. If you want to leave, you may. I know that I can live through dam near anything. But I want you to know that life without you would be very sh!tty. Veryveryveryvery sh!tty. I don't want to even think about it, and when you say/write things like this, it forces me to. I don't know if you are serious or not...<P>>>I just can't take the fact that our lives >>together (you me, and our son), come to a >>grinding halt whenever there is a problem >>from your ex....or that our very lives have >>to revolve around those problems...or that >>so much stress is introduced that we both >>stop behaving like adults...<P>On a practical level, I, as Peter's Father am bound by a set of responsibilities that I cannot ignore. My own dad did, and I am living proof of the repercussions of what happens when a kid grows up without a Dad. And my Mom was pretty stable. You know that I cannot be absolved from what I have to do to ensure that Peter gets the best possible. If I have to go to court, I have to go. As for our personal lives, well, again... the b!tch has no more power than we give her. And with all do respect, I think you give her a lot. The statement quoted above is my reference. the sadist has NO place in OUR emotional lives. Sure stress is a factor, but stress is no cause for the grinding to a halt of ones life- it's just another thing to deal with.<P>>>I just don't understand why everything has >>to fall apart...<P>It doesn't. Not us anyway... she will always be screwed, and likely we are not going to get any peace from her for the next ten years. I gave up on peace a long time ago. I know you have held onto the hope, and I think that the cause of your frustration is that you keep expecting her to come to her senses or grow up, or magically become sane. Don't expect it, and you won't be disappointed. I know it's more than you bargained for. When we first started dating, I told you my ex was nuts (I used a different word, as I recall) and you, like most people didn't realize that I was very serious. It took me many years to realize the there is no redeeming this woman, and once I stopped hoping I was able to focus more on tolerating and working around it. I don't give a dam about her abuse anymore, I haven't for a long while to tell the truth, I get more stressed about your reactions to it and the effect it has on my boy. <P>>> Deut I love you, but I don't know what I'm <BR>>>doing anymore.....<P>I'm not sure what you meant by this...<P>>>If it will help you to clear your mind, and >>to give you some space and peace, where you >>can think straight, see options, focus and >>then act, tell me, and I will go..<P>Please don't. Not for me. I think straight and am at peace with the universe when I am at peace with you. The world could be falling to [censored], no money, no heat... none of that holds any power over me when I am at peace with you.<P>>>neither one of us is happy right now, and >>down deep inside, I feel neither one of us >>has been for awhile....maybe we've been >>going through the motions, or maybe we >>really want to succeed, but just can't cope >>with everything else all at the same >>time...I fell you have been 'faking it' for >>awhile ....<P>I can honestly say that no, I am not completely happy with everything in my life, but does that surprise you? I'm seriously questioning my ability to act as a good provider for my family... I expected the winter to be slow, and I knew we weren't prepared for it... but in terms of US... yikes... I don't mind telling you that this last paragraph has scared the he!! out of me... I love you... more than I have ever loved any woman... there is nobody, NOBODY else that I would rather be with, or have raise my children... I have not been faking anything... I'm maybe a little unsure as to what 'the motions' are supposed to be, maybe, but no faking... and ya there are things I'm unhappy about and ways I feel we could improve our relationship, but still, there is only you... YOU, the woman of my dreams, which I have claimed as true for 15 years and will claim as true until the day I die.<P>>>if you stayed here with us after your >>affair, just because of the guilt and >>shame, or out of fear, or<BR>>>of 'doing the right thing', please do us >>both a favor....<P>Guilt was doing a pretty good job of driving me away, and we all know I have failed at proving my ability to always discern (much less do) 'the right thing'. As for fear, well that is more to the mark. Fear it was, that put me on my knees at your feet, begging you not to leave... fear of life without you. Fear of growing old without you. I'm not afraid of being alone, but I am afraid of being without you. Deathly afraid. And I still am, especially after reading this post...<P>>>just look at the way we are both >>reacting...and we both know that this is >>only the beginning..the [censored] will really >>start to roll once court proceedings are >>under way...<P>So, I guess we are just going to have to get better at dealing with this aren't we? How much do you value what we have? How much are you willing to put into this that we can overcome? Can you let go of your hate? Your rage? To be sure, everyone gets p!ssed off from time to time, but are you willing to not carry it with you always?<P>>>a child's future is at stake, but so is >>our marriage, our son's future and >>everybody's well being....I can't stand to >>watch this rip us apart.......again....<P>Yes, a child's future is at stake. My child. Your step child. Your son's brother. I gave this boy life and cannot abandon him. I do not have the right. If it turns into a no-win situation, then I will be a destroyed and broken man. It is the one thing I doubt I have the strength to handle, but I suppose I will... I can barely even think down this road... <P>>>there is so much more to say....so much >>more to talk about, but we never do, Deut, >>we always start, we get too emotional, and >>once again, everything gets dropped...the >>subject is too painful for you....<P>I get the feeling you would like to pack up and leave, go far away from the situation. I'd like nothing better, but I cannot. He needs me, and I gave him life and I cannot ever get past that, not without losing my soul.<P>>>living like this is too painful for me...<BR>>>in 24 hours, we have gone from a great >>night, a great day (in which I secured my >>1st house cleaning client).....to yelling, >>stomping, slamming doors and not >>speaking....<P>No kidding, but we choose what happens in our home. We choose our actions and reactions. What really happened tonight? A five minute call gives evidence that Peter is being brainwashed... anything new there? Any big surprises??? Everything that happened after that had nothing to do with him, or his )*&^^% mother. It was ALL us.<P>>>this is what I mean when I say that we (our >>marriage, our son, our home, our very >>lives) do not take precedence (us not >>coming first)....this situation with her >>has to stop being the umbrella over<BR>>>our lives that it is..... <P>You have said this before, and I would like to explore it further, but I must say that I still, after four years of hearing this don't know what you mean. I can think of the odd example, like the 'babysitting incident' (background: the sadist asked me to watch Peter on or about our youngun's due date - I said yes, which was very inconsiderate) but in relation to tonight? I don't get it. The escalation of tension in this home, tonight happened here, with nobody else involved, and we can't blame Peter or even the sadist... it was us... You say that you and the youngun don't take precedence, that you aren't the priority. I say that E gets tucked in by his Dad every night, and has my undivided attention every single day. He and I have a much closer relationship than Peter and I could ever HOPE to have, even if we won custody tomorrow. And you, I snuggle up under the covers with you every night. I think of you far more often than you can possibly imagine. You are the woman of my dreams, to whom I would give everything in my power to give... the woman I want to continue to build a life with... I don't think you would make a statement like that without cause, and it's driving me crazy cause I can't figure out what you mean... <P>>>and I don't know anymore...I am at a >>complete loss...<BR>>>but I invite you, Deut, to respond to me >>here...maybe we can discuss it out here, >>since we can't seem to in our lives....<P>Well, I think between the two of us, we may just crash this whole site... I think we may have even put BabyBear to shame... <P>>>love you<P>I know, and I love you too... and I'm a bit of a dolt about reading between the lines... too much of this bordered on the 'I'm thinking of leaving you' kind of thing... which if that is what you want to do, I haven't much choice but to respect your decision, but please be more direct about it. Guessing really f**ks me up. I start putting up defenses... preparing for it... I don't want to go through that unless I have to...<P>Deut<P>ps: to anyone else reading this... I for one would welcome comments/advice, I'm pretty sure Dylan feels the same way...

There is a lot of pain here...<P>I'm praying for you both... <BR>(Duet... do check out my reply to your other post)<P>I love you both... and I only wish to respect each of your respective needs... I just hope in time you can work towards satisfying each other's needs.<P> <P>Jim

Hey Guys,<P>I've been praying everynight for God to show you his will and give you the power to stay in it...<P>I sent you something via the snail..It helped me profoundly..I hope it does the same for you...<P>Take a big breath...look deep in each others eyes...give each other a big hug...then go keep each other warm...<P>As far as the sadist woman...F-her...like Deut said don't allow her to determine how you react to her BS...<P>You know I'm here for you too.<P>I love you both,<P>Bill<P>Irish Blessing<P>May the roads rise to meet you,<BR>May the winds always be at your back,<BR>May the sun shine warm upon your face,<BR>The rains fall soft upon your fields,<BR>And until we meet again,<BR>May god hold you<BR>In the hollow of his hand.<P>------------------<BR>BB<BR>

Deut and Dylan,<BR> I feel like I'm intruding, in a way, but I did read the post and I would like to say something.<BR>You both seem to have a good gasp of the situation and best ways to deal with whatever is thrown yur way, so I'm probably not going to say anything new.<BR>However I can stress it again.<BR>It is very important that you can separate things and have different compartments to them. Whatever stress you're getting from outside sources belongs in a different compartment.Yes unfortunately they kind of blend specially when we're upset, but keeping in mind, and understanding that it has nothing to do with your marriage makes a big difference.<BR>I know all about extra stress. Me and my H have been dealing with it for the last 8 years or so. From financial problems, to ilness, to deaths in the family less than for months apart of each other, to dealing with his parents that would like nothing better than to see us separated, to being laid off 2 times ( both after each of our children were born, and I mean after, one week on one case and 2 or 3 in the other), to 2 operations needed on my dog one month apart ( both extremelly expensive), to having my SIL cheering for the ow and sugesting that the kids should know he's going to leave ( even though he didn't ) and geting him to tell them, to... should I continue?<BR>EVerytime we seem to be making some forward motion, the rug is pulled, and there we slide all the way back again. Or used to anyway.The frustration,the stress... not only we would be exploding left and right, but we were also taking everything very personally. <BR>If he talked louder, or answer in a harsh way, I would take it personally, get all upset and emotional,and retreat into my shell or reply in kind, making things even worse. Deep down I did understand why he was so stressed and that it was natural to react like that in those circumstance, but still I would feel hurt as if he was doing it on purpose to upset me. <BR>By the same token , if I acted differently or talked harsher myself due to my own stress, or yell back at him,he would also feel hurt and take it personally like the attack was intended to him and not the situation. <BR>For years, this got us apart. Everytime things seemed to start getting better, something else would hit, and there we were again.<BR>Then the affair happened. I don't need to tell how stressfull that is for both spouses. The same pattern was coming back, and things were probably on its way to become impossible to work out.<BR>Then I decided we had to break the patterns. In doing so , I realised the mistake we were making. Everything need to be separated in diferent "piles" and recognized as different things.<BR>There was one for the problems in our marriage. I was trying to work on that one. I created one for the ow, and I guess it helped me not to obsess about her. She wasn't part of the solution,she was an outside stress, so out of my marriage "pile", not that much extra space in there for things that don't belong.<BR>His family... well big different "pile" in there, but not to be dealt together with my marriage, so separate.<BR> Finances...quite bad, but still nothing to do with our relationship, and so on. <BR>I did recognise each problem and the stress it created. But I stopped taking personally anything that came from that particular situation. If H was stressed because there were more bills to pay than the money we had, and vented or seemed upset, I would take it in the right perspective: It really is not directed at me personally.<BR>As things start getting better I discussed this with him,and we both agreed that it worked better that way.SO we decided to try using it with everything.Understand the reason with the other is stressed,( or both) separate it from our relationship, not take whatever came from there personally.<BR>It's been working incredibly well. <BR>My H is an extremelly heavy sleeper. it's so difficult to wake him up, that sometimes I run out of creative ways to do it, and just feel like resorting to the old cup of water down the neck thing. On top of that, he never wakes up in a good mood. Many people "suffer" from that, and like him, just really "wake" up after the first cup of coffee. SO after trying my best to wake him up sometimes for over one hour, and being stressed because I'm getting late, or know that he has to wake up and I can't do it. When I'm finally victorious and he opens one eye, and then the other, I'm usually greeted with sarcasm or just plain rudness.<BR>Before, I would take that very personally, feel hurt and retreat. Then during the affair, the same would happen with the added problem of me feeling he was being like that because he wanted out. <BR>Now we can have fun with it.I separate it. Remind myself that he was always like that and has trouble changing it,and has nothing to do wit me personally or our marriage, and use light talk or humour to deflect it. " can I get that one in writing?" I ask sometimes, or " I bet you won't be to proud of that one when you really wake up "- big smile, not reproaching.<BR> By not taking it personally, it becomes less important. Instead of starting the day in a bad mood, we can actually start in a great way. He will tend to respond in the same light maner like " but I'm not awake yet, so I have an excuse to be rude"-smile or wink - or " I don't put anything in writing before breakfast" and sometimes even " I'm sorry, you know I'm not at my best when I wake up.It's not directed at you"<BR>This is just an example. There are more , but here it is. I find it very important , so I wanted to share it with you guys.<BR>Don't let outside stress mess with your relationship.<BR>YOu guys love each other very much, don't let anything from the outside create any stress between you both.<BR>Take care<BR>Kat<BR><P>------------------<BR>Each and everyone of us is deserving of a kind word, a gentle thought, and the gift of understanding.

Good morning all,<P>Well, the storm is passed... we still have issues, but we started the day with a big hug and lots of cuddles.<P>Jim, thanks... I checked in on that site very briefly... and it looks great. I have a feeling I will be spending a lot of time there over the next while.... <P>William, thank you too, Your prayers are very appreciated. Did the big hug thing this morning... it worked like a charm <P>Kat, Thank you for your post and insight. I totally agree with you on the 'pile' thing, and it comes very easy for me... I am also usually able to shut it out at need...<P>>>If he talked louder, or answer in a harsh >>way, I would take it personally, get all >>upset and emotional,and retreat into my >>shell or reply in kind, making things even >>worse. <P>Yikes, can I ever relate to that! I'm the best at withdrawing into my shell... you should see how quick and deep I can go when I put my mind to it, lol. Seriously though, that is one of the viscious circles I think Dylan and I need to break.<P>Thanks again for your reply, there's some good advice there, we will try to live by it more consistently... <P>Deut<BR>

No advice, but wanted to tell you both that it helped me to read your post.<P>For me, the differences in relating between men and women are often a stumblingblock. Deut, you responded exactly as my h would. A reasoned response, point by point. And boy do I know the retreating into the shell routine.<P>And Dylan, it comes to my mind often as well that he is here 'cause it's right and for the kids. I guess it's normal to feel that way, and my h is not good at saying the words (you are blessed on that one) that you are the woman of his dreams, that he loves you, etc.<P>Kat offers good advice, it seems natural for men to compartmentalize that way, we women have to learn that discipline. Of course, there are times when we women feel even more hurt because men are so good at this that they seem not to feel at all.

Duet and Soulless after reading your notes to one another It's obvious that you BOTH want to make it work. What I am hearing from Soulless is that she needs to feel secure. It's noticeable that she doesn't feel like #1 in your life right now, due to circumstances beyond your control with your son. I think that is where all the talk of leaving comes from. I think she wants you to SHOW her that she is most important, but instead talks and arguements go towards the ex and son. She may feel that that is ALL attention is going to right now, andDuet you are very correct when you say that the ex and your son were not there to cause an arguement, that you BOTH decided to take it there. Everyone needs to feel that even though OTHER things are on your mind, that you have not forgotten to deposit those love units in the bank. And I'm quite sure Duet that you need the same thing. And I think KAT1's advice was PHENOMINAL (sp?)!!! I think I'm going to try her advice too. GOOD LUCK TO YOU BOTH!! As long as you keep communicating then you can't go wrong!

Just wanted to let you guys know that you are in my prayers, (Cat's too, she asked me to post) I don't know if you have heard of <A HREF="http://www.retrouvaille.org" TARGET=_blank>www.retrouvaille.org</A> or not, but it is a little more indepth than a marriage encounter weekend. Cat and I went, and while we didn't complete the program, we did learn a few things about communicating with each other, especially in the feelings arena. The whole weekend focuses on describing your feelings about things, not the things themselves. We are both much quicker to acknowledge when we are hurting each other when we say things as opposed to withdrawing or stepping up the counter-attacks. Just a thought. It only cost a $50 registration fee, then a free will offering at the end of the weekend. Some pay, some can't and they don't refuse anyone. There are some weekends in Canada, but depends on where you all are.<P>------------------<BR>Allen<BR>sparky_dog_mb@yahoo.com

My humble opinion only. I have been where you guys are, had the same fights,etc. (Married to a wonderful man with a horrible ex ) I know that the biggest thing that I was feeling was that this entire life (ex-wife, kids, H) existed that I was not a part of. At times it seemed that my husband spent all of his time thinking about ex and none about me. We struggled with this through a long legal battle, he retreated to the cave everytime she called (which was atleast 2 times a week). I felt that he was letting her come between us. It came to the point I was ready to leave and we decided to try a new strategy. Every time she did something to upset him, we promised to give each other 1 hour of silent attention, sitting on the couch snuggling. That way there was benefit not damage caused by her actions to our marriage. Also, he let me help with the process. We would discuss proper strategies, read books together, I would call the lawyer and talk to him about my concerns, the arbitrator invited me to share my concerns with him. All of a sudden this wasn't about them and their family any more, it was about us and ours. I was fighting for access to my step children, the siblings to my daughter, our family. It is amazing what happened to our relationship with these changes. (Plus I have become incredibly indespible to my husband ) I hope you guys can find your own solutions to this problem, but this is definitely what worked for us, plus we have unbelievable strenght and confidence in our custody battle that has helped us to achieve our goals. Good Luck to you.

<A HREF="http://www.divorcedfather.com/" TARGET=_blank>http://www.divorcedfather.com/</A> <BR>How about this link?

Dylan and Deut,<P>Just wanted to tell you that I am here with an offer of a prayer to you both. I don't know what else to say except that I am learning a lot here too and from both of you as well. Prayers to you both at this time, Dana<BR>

As Deut said at the beginning of his post, I apologize in advance if any of this comes across as either childish or unreasonable....I am also putting aside harley's rules for this post....I am going to take this opportunity and let out 5 years of anger, frustration and depression....if I can....<P>so, for those of you who don't wish to be offended, or are sticking to the whole LB, disrespectful judgments rules, read no further....<P>but first, I feel that I must thank all and sundry for venturing forth into the land of Deut and Dylan so fearlessly....<P>Hanora: I love Toronto...worked there on and off for a year...corner of King and university!!...I had to laugh when I read your post, as I recently had a stress test done and was told by a rather shocked neuro-psychologist that my stress levels were 5 points above those of an air trafic controller!!!....LOL...Deut and I added 3 new categories to the questionnaire part of the test as well!!....no one here is rational....thank you....you are correct, and I will keep it in mind...<P>Jim: ah, Jim...how do you keep going?...you are so brave...you take us all on, under your ever-protective wing, you console, you cajole, you weep, you laugh....I feel so sorry for your wife....that she is missing out on one of the best men I have ever encountered in my life....much love to you, my friend, and coming here to vent may be what saves my relationship...communicating is one of my highest emotional needs...well, I certainly have him communicating now, don't I?.....<P>Bill: I thank you, you are always a voice of reason...also, I found a recipe for you for pasta a la Abigail...no joke, my friend, I laughed when I read the name, and thought of your angel...as for your statement, Bill, when you pray to God for us and regarding us, um, I think you have to speak LOUDER!!!...no disrespect intended...LOL...I think God, in her infinite wisdom, is getting reeady to chuck Deut and i out with them serpents and stuff...seriously, as I told you a while ago...a few weeks back, I sat down, gave up and handed it all over to the powers that be....that is where I stand on God and my life right now....I gave the toys in to be fixed and am waiting for the call to pick up the fixed versions...thanks in advance for the snail mail...is it a baseball bat? with which to beat myself about the head????!! I am not nor was I reacting to her BS... there was none from her...a restraining order prevents her from contacting us....ahhh a slice of heaven.... by the way, I was and am reacting to Deut's 'freak out'....love ya too....<P>Kat: oh my gosh.....your H and Deut were seperated at birth...I am not joking....a volcano could go off next to him and he will not wake up...I understand completely about that...and I will try to incorporate some of your ideas...every morning here is a nightmare....I am the one that needs the coffee before I can speak beyond monosyllabicgrunts, but his not waking up thing has driven me nuts for 5 years...and you are also correct about the proverbial rug getting pulled everytime there is a step forwards....I just think sometimes, maybe, I should not stand on the rug.....LOL<P>Schizzo: hey there....any throwing up yet??? ...LOL I know whereof you speak about the retreating thing...the hardest part is that I feel he goes into his shell and leaves me out here in the real world to deal with the mess.....<P>T24Give: honey, you have had a rough day...if it makes you feel not quite so alone, I know about that, not being in love aspect...but...that 'in love' thing CAN come back.....don't force, be yourself, but like you, I can't trust either...and that is something that Deut understands....he has betrayed that trust and hopes someday to earn it back...or rather, earn a newer version....it fair, and your H will learn too...and in response to you, no, I don't feel like number 1 right now, but I don't think I SHOULD be number 1 right now....his son is and should be...that is where deuts priorities should be and I respect him for it, and in this case, I understand and agree wholeheartedly....what caused the argument was neither my step-son nor her but rather Deut's extreme reaction to a not-extreme situation....<P>Sparky!!: love that name....say hello and thanks to Cat!...we have heard of retrouvaille, and I have visited the website and I agree that a weekend there would probably do wonders fro us, but they alas, are in Toronto, and that is an 8 hour drive from us here..we cannot afford the gas forthe trip...otherwise, I'd be kidnapping Deut right about now.....<P>Slyone: holy cow! batgirl!!...e-mail me!! sacred_rain@yahoo.com....one big difference between our situations is that I have always felt involved with this situation...I am a big part of it...and the problems with her escalated once our son was born...see, Deut had a parade of girlfriends, so I, as the new one was no threat...but then, holy truth in a teacup...I had the audacity to bear his child??!?!?!...how dare I...i was babysitting their son 3 days after giving birth...I asked kindly for a 3 week break so i could adjust to being anew mom, but nope, she had an abortion melodrama....I am rambling....<BR>I think sometimes I am too involved, as Deut has said, there were times during the 3rd or 4th custody fight, that he felt like a bystander, watching me collect data, put together motions, find evidence...etc...as if I was fighting the case, not him...LOL<P>I ask for your patience as what follows is a catharsis for me...I have, in the past,<P>paid his child support, because I could afford to while I put him through his last year of college...<P>bought her groceries when she gambled the last of the support money away, and any other time she needed it <P>babysat on the drop of a dime, <P>taken my step-son in when she jetted off to arizona with a chippendales dancer<P>listened to her insult my H, stayed calm as she screamed and raged at me over the phone, telling me he would just end up cheating on me and hurting me....hmmmm (you do not hang up on her, or Deut won't see his son)..<P>listened to her lies (you do not point out obvious truths or Deut won't see his son), <P>listened to her threatening my H's life, I have acted as peacekeeper and mediator countless times, and then get told I have no place in my stepsons life...my stepson has been instructed not to listen to me...has been told that I have no authority, that I am just the girlfriend<P>but, when she forgot to make arrangements for summer daycare, I got an angry telephone call stating that as his stepmom, I should watch him for the month required...that it was my responsibility... <P>I have even taken a job as a legal secretary and put up with sexual harassment, and the loss of my soul in that horrible environment and done everything to put together his cases for him, writen letters, kept docs, I keep a calendar of events in place..I write down when he speaks or doesn't speak to his son, I record dates she threatens us, or other events that would help in a custody fight...because Deut does not remember to...i am the keeper of all things custodial....<P>i buy his school supplies, I buy the foods he likes for the weekends, I buy his clothes, I get up at 3 am to change his sheets, I sit and talk with him on the stairs to comfort him when he cries because his mom is yelling at his dad once again....<P>i love this little boy....I don't write the above to put myself on a pedestal, I do it because these are things I have done ....out of love...for Deut, for pete, and for the chance at a normal life together...<P>I know I am indispensible...Deut tells me constantly.....I no longer want to be indispensible....I want to feel as though I matter......<P><BR>Deut: you are right, my love...I have been very martian ...because nothing ever changes..we cango to court, fight the good fight, call youth protection, get the police involved, tell our story and still always come up against a brick wall of indifference and disbelief...<P>I am martian because I want results... I want something positive to come of all this chaos and pain and destruction of our lives....in 5 years for me, and in 9 for you, nothing has changed...NO MATTER what we do....she gets away with everything, we get pain...I cannot beat my head against a brick wall...it hurts....we go to court, she says she'll get therapy, so we pull back....no changes, we get judgments in place, she throws them to the wind...we can't even get a lawyer..she has them as bloody friends...I just can't see this changing....again....she will always use him as a weapon, she will never seek help,. she will always hate and abuse you, she will always resent and hate me, and if you take your child from her (even though we know the damage she is doing), he will hate us and resent us and our lives will become a living nightmare...there! now I'm not being martian..I have no resolutions or answers...just facts....<P>you are right....from now on, i will be here for support..I will no longer take it to heart, and will, like a duck, let it roll....right off me..I will keep my mouth shut and give you my ear, shoulders, and comforting arms....you, however, will have to pay for the kickboxing lessons I will need.<P>Hon, I know you are frustrated....your levels are legendary...<P>I have NEVER insisted that SHE is breaking up our relationship....we are....I am fully aware of that..we give her too much power...WE...not only I...<P>here is where the childish warning comes into effect.....<BR>As for her making YOUR life a living hell...?!?!? um, excuse me....YOUR life...ah, i was under the mistaken assumption it was OUR life...calling social sevices and lying and saying that I was harassing her with telephone calls (when we both know I have not dialed her number for 3 years) has nothing to do with you, hon, she has a problem, a big one, with ME...you need to start seeing that...she did not call you and regale you for hours with stories of how horrible you were and are, and how you undoubtedly would prove yourself to be a cheating liar...you didn't hear firsthand how she would rip your entrails out barehanded...and hold your son down in a bathtub...<P>This does NOT only affect your life....I thought I was a part of that life, and as such, it affects me...perhaps too deeply, I readily admit....but I am accused ofthis and that, I am harassed, I too am insulted and called names...how can you make a statement that only your life is being made a living hell?<P>As for last night, what rage??!?!? when did i go into a rage?<P>I took over the dishes for you so that you could go speak to your son..you came into the kitchen stomping and angry yelling about 'Game Over'...then storming off....all I asked was if we were still going to eat dinner..our son still needed to eat...no matter what else is going on, he still needs to be tended to..that was my only point...that is what bothersme..everything and everyone else gets lost in your 'fog of anger'...<P>What your son told you last night were her words and her wishes..and I must say it was a damn sight better than the time he said he hated you, called you a liar and hung up on you...and you did not react as vehemently then as you did last night...<P>you have been verbally and physically attacked, you have had yours and his life threatened by her, YOUR anger and rage last night, was, in my humble opinion, not worthy of the situation...you have reacted more calmly to worse...so, he doesn't want to be here this weekend, he thinks you should share his spring break, and wants the summer visit to be 50/50 (which it already is)....even if they are her wishes, in his 8 yr. old mind, what's fair is fair....and to him, 50/50 is fair..that IS what we have taught him,...all I am trying to point out is that, in a few years, regardless of how you or she feel, he will indeed start dictating to the both of you, where HE prefers to be and when...<P>back to last night....<P>instead of running around like a chicken without a head, why not simply say:<P>"whoa, hon, I'm looking for batteries, tryin to find the adapter for our boy...be back in a minute hon, would you mind getting dinner going please?"<P>I was not upset in the least until you freaked on me after I asked if dinner was still on....<P>I have learned to shut up after you finish on the phone, Deut...you have a habit of thinking I can read your mind while you are conversing....I can't....i will wait for you to tell me what has transpired....sometimes, it hurts my feelings, though,because you don't..<P>I was not, as you put it, 'pissed off'...I just couldn't understand why you were freaking out and yelling at me...as I said above, there has been so much worse that has happened...<P>As for your number 1 emotional need...thank you...now that you have FINALLY vocalized your need, I will provide whatever support you need...but, Deut, i cannot read your mind, or guess....you need to be telling me this things...if I don't know what you need, how the hell can i provide it, or do anything helpful or constructive???!?!?!?<P>You retreated by just leaving the room and stomping off, not by saying:<P>"hon, I am no longer hungry, I am going to go and breathe for a little bit"<P>if I had known you would not be sitting and eating with us, I would have gladly made dinner and let you go and relax...<P>you repeatedly yelled and screamed at the dog...you, Deut were taking out your anger and YOUR rage at the dog...whose whining and barking are part of her dog-behaviour...and I will not allow that in OUR home....the dog did not deserve your overdose of anger...hence my asking you to leave the home until you had calmed down and relaxed...I did not, as you stated, ask you to leave YOUR home....i was under the impression that this was OUR home...again, I asked you to leave to cool off..I know you and frankly, the walls don't need any more holes....the ones we have are fine....I asked you to leave...yes, because i truly believed that being away from dog, child, wife might relax you...I knew that non of us was helping....and I do not want our child exposed to that behaviour...the last thing we need is for him to start copying anger and rage....<P>i apologize for bringing our son into the office....again, please just tell me to leave...tell me to take him elsewhere in the house...he was on the couch because he had a timeout...for disrespect...since daddy was not eating, well he said he saw no point in eating and was 'going to be like daddy'....:eek:<P>Did you ask for a hug last night? did you come and jut take one? like you say to me all the time, I can't read your mind...when you retreat, I don't usually feel very 'huggy'<P>I fyou need to be alone for a few hours everytime something happens regarding the ex or pete, well, we'll never see each other, and one day you'll come out of the office and find your kids married!! and moved out!!<P>you retreat....i know that now..but, I feel you use any and every excuse to do so...that is why I ask you if you want me to leave..it seems you prefer to retreat than living your life..problems and all...you do it so very often, about everything that I wonder if you would not truly prefer to be alone...<P>I am serious about leaving, yes..it is not an idle threat..i would never do that to you..just like I would never deliver any ultimatum...i just think there are times where I do more harm than good, and you would honestly be better off without me around....<P>as for your statement about 'if I have to go to court, I will'...yes, love, I know that....but i will never go personally bankrupt because of it again....this may sound harsh....but it was harsh...for me....what i am trying to say nicely is that neither I nor my income will pay for another court battle....in light of everything, I have to say I think it's fair...thank god we qualify for leagal aid...<P>I am not, nor have I EVER asked you to absolve yourself of your parental responsibilities or to abandon your son...EVER....I respect you as a father and respect everything you have done in that capacity....my only problem is the havoc it wreaks...<P>The sadist has no place in our emotional lives, you say?...but you also need to see it through the eyes of a betrayed wife, my love...think about the fact that that she tried, a year ago, to sexually um, i am struggling with a polite way of saying perform orally on you...and that you DID NOT tell me anything about it until your affair this summer as your way of 'coming clean'!!!..no pun intended...she tried then to kiss, fondle, hug you...honey, as a betrayed wife, she has a place in MY emotional life...right between the blonde and the internet girl!!!!!and the fact that you only told me recently .....I mean, that is a betrayal from her and you that I cannot even begin to explain...and the fact that you readily admit that you NEVER wuld have told me, makes me question your very honesy and thus, the foundation of our relationship...<P>you said "we are not going to get any peace formher for the next 10 years"<P>my response? fkldlity9iuy4;-9875q2yb[vrtkjdshfieyhg;iuaygakjhtyiuyyuig;oi.......and that was being polite....<P>I want to run to my mommy after reading that...no peace?....until I am 42 and you are 40?....how do we build a life with never a moment's peace?...is that fair to ask of someone you supposedly love?...what other options are there?...there have to be some...I cannot llive like this....I cannot fathom a decade more of this.....please, understand that I love you, but another decade...how can you just accept that as fact?.....how can you ask your 2nd child to undergo all this turmoil until he is 14??!?!?<P>you roll over and accept defeat...I say we run...go to court, get pete whenever we can, rely on the knowledge that in time, less than a decade at least, he will come to understand what happened, and what she is truly like....and just get the hell away from her, build a life...that i all I have ever wanted with you.,.....a chance at a life together... not her death threats, her psychopathic behaviours...let's run and and save what we can in terms of pete, our marriage, our sanity....our child...how can this go on and continue for another decade?!?!?!<P>I know, I waited a decade once before for you....I really thought that this was finally 'our turn' at a life...you are my everything....and I swore to your mom on her deathbed that I would love you, protect you, and keep you safe from the sadist....<P>I am frustrated because our lives were not supposed to be like this...we are soullmates..destined, we have been through hell and back in order to forge a life together...you are not supposed to have had an affair...you are not supposed to have let your psycho ex sexually molest you...you were supposed to defend me and stand up for me to her....not just recently but for the 5 years preceeding!!!....excuse me for feeling like a doormat, but when your ex calls me a f-ing pagan b!tch wife, you should have said something....just like all the other times she said anything..I am tired of feeling like I bend over backwards for everyone and getting kicked in the butt for my efforts.....by you, your ex, your son, her mother, your dad.......AAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGH....<P>I too am frustrated beyond belief with her, you, pete, life, poverty, blondes, enabling friends, i just want to go live on a deserted island.....call Gilligan, i'm done...<P><BR>you asked:<P>how much do I value what we have?<P>How much am I willing to put into this?<P>how dare you.<P><BR>I have stood tall and proud by your side through thick and thin...through sick and sin....<P>when everyone we know was telling me to leave...I stayed.....after you cheated....I stayed...after you hurt me more than any human being ever has...I stayed...after suffering a mind-rape like no other...I stayed....after realizing you have treated me worse than you treated the psycho...I stayed...after you lied, I stayed... I have gone bankrupt emotionally, mentally, and financially....I have given, and given and given and I have taken, I have loved you through it all....<P>please read Harley's article on 'Why women leave men' for how I feel right now.<P><BR>how much do you value what we have?<P>How much are you willing to put into this?<P><BR>have you looked into a mirror and asked yourself?<P>the bottom line, is I love you....beyond anything you could possibly measure....<P>please, please do me a favour....replay the past 5 years in your head, reverse the roles, and then come and tell me where you would be right now....<P>there's more, but frankly, I am emotionally exhausted....<P><BR>Dylan....feeling about 5 years old, and wanting my mommy....<P>

I said: <P> "a child's future is at stake, but so is our marriage, our son's future and everybody's well being....I can't stand to watch this rip us apart.......again...."<P><BR>you said: <P> "Yes, a child's future is at stake. My child. Your step child. Your son's brother. I gave this boy life and cannot abandon him. I do not have the right. If it turns into a no-win situation, then I will be a destroyed and broken man. It is the one thing I doubt I have the strength to handle, but I suppose I will... I can barely even think down this road..."<P><BR>I mentioned a marriage, another child, a life......<P>you mention only your son...this is what I mean by us never being a priority...ever.........you did not even acknowledge our marriage or our son...or the damage inflicted to each...Deut, when do you get to have a life? and enjoy your second family while incorporating the first?....even if this turns into a no-win situation, Deut, you have another child that needs you and a wife...we need...YOU ....A FATHER and a HUSBAND...not a broken and destroyed man...she wins, Deut, if that is what you allow it to do to you....SHE WINS....for gawd's sake....look at what you are saying..for the sake of one, you won't even pick yourself up, and not let this destroy you for the sake of the other??? <BR>

I feel so much as if I am intruding, and listening to a conversation that I shouldn't be hearing, but you poor poor things....<P>What a living hell.<P>I've read everything everyone has said, and I agree with it all. You two need to put each other first, and then take on the problems with the 'ex wife sado psycho'....<P>Together, you will overcome, and triumph...<P>But it needs to be done together. You need to find your way back to each other. The love you have for each other came through so profoundly, please please don't squander that.<P>Dylan, I have no way of comprehending exactly what you are going through, or have been through, but girl, if you love this man, (and I get the very strong feeling that you do,) let him have his space when 'ex wife sado psycho' does whatever it is she does. You need to be there with your arms open, and just hold him, when she interferes.<BR>I can appreciate how this must affect your life, I can only imagine, but if you feel the level of anger that YOU do, imagine the levels of Duet's anger......<P>Does that make sense.?<P>He probably does not need to see, hear or feel your anger (even though justified) at the same time that he is going through it.<P>That is the one thing I learnt about my H, courtesy of our two years in Sydney. If he was angry about something, I had to back off at the time, and just let HIM be angry. Later, when we were discussing whatever it was, I could have my turn at being angry. It seemed to work. We could discuss things a lot more rationally, as only one of us was angry at the one time. And we weren't angry with each other, it was the situation, or the circumstance. Obviously, you have so much more to deal with that what we ever had, and I feel for you both. It is pointless to say I wish I had a magic wand, but in your case, I really wish I did.<P>Oh boy, the topics of trust, truth, honesty and love, I haven't even un-buried those yet. And you have those to deal with too....<BR>Maybe the 'piles' idea is a worthwhile one, I liked the sound of that. (We call hemorroids 'piles' over here - what a joke)<P>Honey, where's the marriage hemorroid today?<BR>Honey, where's the ex-wife hemorroid today?<BR>Honey, where's the financial hemorroid today?<P>Oh, the list I could make to fit me and my <BR>situation.......<P>Anyway, I hope I haven't been too presumptuous is responding to you guys, but you have been there for me, and I would like to be here for you too.<P>I'm thinking of you both, and will say a prayer for you tonight.<P>Take care of you and your family, and big hugs to you all<P>Jo

(((((((((((((JO))))))))))))<P>hey there friend!!!<P>you are NOT intruding....not in the least....<P>this is why we post our vents here..we are, at times, too much like 2 dogs chasing their tails in a circle...you guys and your opinions sometimes act as the catalyst that makes us stop dead in our tracks, and then we get the chance to re-focus and see beyond our own pettiness and emotional reactionism...<P>The love between us IS profound...but we are both the type to realize that even in the best situations, sometimes love just isn't enough....<P>Jo, I will give him the space he needs....whenever he needs it...but as I posted, I am not able to read his mind...now that I know, I can provide for that need...before, it was a frustrating guessing game...and I usually guess wrong...<P>Piles......LOL......my first thought was hemmoroids too!!!! LOL<P>take care of you, Jo, and I hope your H sees and knows what a great human being you truly are, and how worthwhile life would be with you on his side!!!<P><BR>Dylan

piles.........I wonder if it was one of those unconsciously intended things ???? I find those "piles" as bothersome and irritant as hemorroids and yet we have to keep them in mind, so who knows? LOL<P>Dylan, I am one of those perfect people ( ) that wakes up in the best of moods and my sense of humour right in place LOL, so the grunts and all used to hurt me even more because I didn't really understand them.And I've been living with them for almost 20 years!<BR>I guess we have a tendency to expect others to react like we would, and that's were a lot of conflict comes. The same with everything, for a long time I was trying to met my H's emmotional needs by fulfilling the needs that were more important to me, the problem with that was that some of them were not that important to him. See what I mean?<BR>We live with someone and we tend to think that we do know that person, - and we do in a way - but there are always some things that we don't really know unless communication is great. ( Again it's like everything. WHen I came to Canada, I had studied english for over 10 years, I had travelled a lot and used english with ease, I had no problem talking with friends that spoke english and conversation came naturally, and yet I came here and would find myself struggling to explain someone I needed a file for my nails,or looking around in suprise when a doctor I worked with told me that I was a litle hoarse - I really was expecting to see a little horse somewhere LOL -, and many more things like this, all small things that are not as usual in normal conversation. I thought I knew the language quite well, but what I knew was more the general idea, not small "unimportant" things that nevertheless make the base of the language.)<BR>What I mean by this is without good communication we don't really know everything about our spouses, we can't, we simply tend to approximate what we think with reality.<P>My H also expected me to read his mind. Thinking about it, it almost seemed like that before the affair. We would end up each others phrases, we would say the same thing in response to the same situation, we would start doing something before the other came asking exactly for that....that was good and bad.<BR> We thought we knew all that was to know about the other,we never stopped to think that that might not be exactly so.<BR>WHen the affair happened my mind reading powers just disapperared. There was something I didn't think he would do, and had done nevertheless. How could I know him? How could I read his thoughts? And being a person that usual reacts by intuition, I was lost. There was none, and if or when there was, I didn't trust it anymore.<BR>Why am I babling like this? I'm not even sure myself LOL, I'm just thinking that we really need to know our spouses and that communication is important because as much as it might look like obvious that the other person knows exactly what we are thinking or feeling unless we say it we can't be sure. Does any of this make sense? I have a tendency to think about so many things at the same time, that sometimes I get very cryptic .<P>Dylan, I can certainly have a small idea of how you're feeling. In a much smaller scale I have been trough something similar with his parents. Watching them using him when they need and bad mouthing him when they don't. Waiting for him at 9:30p.m outside the door of my school and when the temperature was -20 for over one hour because his dad decided he needed our car and my H to take him somewhere and that I could very well wait and that of course what he wanted was more important. Expecting him to go there right this minute, without caring if we were doing something ourselves. Interrupting us in very funny situations ( we leave in the same house, and the door to our apt upstairs was never locked- although I really insisted on this point for a long time ) and others not so funny, because they had no respect for our private life. They would say and do things to me that were at the least rude, and my H would never defend me like I always did to him - that one used to really get me upset! - Things like that..<BR> ANd I also tried to help, defending him when they were attacking him, feeling frustrated because he was't reacting ( at least not reacting the way I would - very important to rememeber) and ending up mad at the way things were.<BR>In a way it was like they were the the puppet masters and we - him primarily and me because I was involved - were the puppets. They were running his life and subsequently mine too.How did I ressent this!<BR> I can rememeber how many times I was so frustrated that would just take it on him - not many arguments because I don't usually argue, but negative things for sure-, and the ressentment growing: Why in #&^$% doesn't he do something? Why doesn't he do this and that and even that?I can't take this anymore!<BR>It seemed the better solution would be leaving the stupid house -actually the best solution would have been never buying the house together in the first place, but that's another story and it was done anyway.- The problem was that we couldn't leave.First because when we bought it we were showered with warnings for responsabilities:Once we buy it you guys can't just give up, we're getting on this together, we can't just leave us with the house to pay - funny thing happened regarding the responsabilty thing and it didn't come from us, but lets pass that one too - . You will have to remain here until it's paid, and many more advice thingys.<BR>SO we felt we couldn't leave. Financially we couldn't just pay our part and go.Leaving anyway and renting our part was not acceptable because they didn't want to live with strangers - more like strangers wouldn't be able to live with them but let that one pass as weel.<BR> In any case, leaving was not an option. ANd the years passed while they were having a very negative impact in our life.<BR>As for me, I guess I was just repressing things letting them out here and there. And ressenting it more and more. No good!<BR>When the affair happened they, being their "nice selves" attacked me - on top of everything-, cheered for the affair, badmouthed me to my H and almost physically attacked me.<BR>His sister, having done the same thing and being tired of being pointed at, welcomed the situation and did he best to help it along.On the side making arrangments for after my H left to get his parents to sell the house and leave me out -You cannot expect to get any money from the sale, it would be very stupid of you to want any - fortunately the house is in the name of us 4, it can't be sold without my signture.<BR>ANd in the middle of all this, that's when my H - for the first time ever!!!!!!!!! - came trough. EVen though the affair was on full force. He heard of some of the things they were telling me and doing to me, and came to the rescue ( that's how I feel about it ). He finaly defended me! HE finally stood for them! <BR>Well, we are fine, finally.SOme things are not perfect regarding his family and we're still living here - can't be helped - but now contact is kept to the minimum, we don't socialize and we don't accept their interference in any way.<BR> Did they stop trying? NO. But after all the new discoveries we made about ourselves and discussing everything in detail, we don't let that affect us anymore. Not as a couple. Maybe my MIL tries get him upset with me by living a note stuck on the door about something she asked me and I never told him - it happened - he brought he note up and we discussed what happened, instead of him read it, throw it away and come up mad and ready to fight.<BR>Again, separating things is working. ANother thing helping is that know I don't get too involved trying to defend him - he certainly can fight his own battles - or getting him to do what I think should be done - it's to be done by him and his way - instead I concentrate on being there as support for his decisions - even the ones that I don't really think are the best - and as a calm port right after the storm. Whatever I feel like discussing related to that, I do at a later time, in a comfortable setting when we're just ready for it.<P>This made their fight for power meaningless. I'm not looking for power. They're fighting alone. I'm looking for balance and harmony and since they can't understand that, they can't bother me - not much anyways -. But you know the idea. Take away one fighter they're left alone. WHat's the pleasure in that? They realise they can't make any trouble between us , so very slowly they are retreating.<P>AS for the child, Dylan, children understand much more than what we give them credit for. ANd if sometimes they seem influenced by what they are told, they know the truth regardless. She can try to influence the kid against you and Deut. But only you too can show him by example that it is not so.Try not to concentrate in waht she is trying to do. Use your energy to show him a calm and balanced place - wich it seems obvious he doesn't have with her - a place where he can feel comfortable, and in peace. A place where no one is trying to convinve him that the other side is wrong. ANd he will respond in kind. It might take a bit, but believe me it will work.<P>Deut I wonder if counting backwards from ten - I do it in german because it takes me longer - after talking to your X , will help. OR something to that effect, just before you talk to dylan. Because it will give you time to get out of one compartment(X, conflict, pain ) and into the other ( wife, love, comfort).<P>Dylan, I know that you are feeling frustrated with this X person from hell, but if you can distance yourself a bit, let Deut deal with it - even if it doesn't look to you that he's not doing it the right way-. <P>One thing seems to spring right away, she is in a power struggle, and without noticing both of you entered the game. Try to recognise what's in there and remove yourselves from the strugle. <P>Yes there is a child, but no, that doesn't mean she has to hold the cards. <BR>Dylan, you don't have to hang up on her, but you don't have to hear what she's saying if it bothers you.Be diplomatic"I'm sorry "X", I would love to stay and chat, but a) my kitchen is catching fire b) I have someone at the door c) I'm late for an apointment d) the bugie just fell on the toilet... I really have to go. talk to you later, bye.<P>And Deut, maybe you need compartments regarding your X also. You are responsible for the child, not for her. SHe might be depending too much on you, and doing it on purpose too.Be distant and cool. Don't let her upset you - at least in a way that she can see. If needed practice what you want to say before. And when you do don't loose your cool, she might be wanting just that.<BR>I don't know, I'm not the one living the situation so I might be way off. But she seems to be having much more power over things than what she should have. Do like in the add :Never let her see you sweat! <BR>Hugs to you guys,<BR>it's a very complicated and difficult situation, but if you tak about it together, and are tuned to each other , you can do it.<BR>By the way deut, it's very important to understand that dylan is dealing not only with that particular situation but also still quite insecure because of the affair. Do keep that in mind. Things tend to hurt more, and have more impact in thoe circumstances.<BR>Hugs again<BR>Kat<BR>ANd sorry for the long posts - they are my trademark LOL<p>[This message has been edited by Kat1 (edited February 19, 2000).]

Dylan,<P>I wrote you at the email addres you gave me in your post to Lori.<P>------------------<BR>Love and Prayers<BR>Nicole

thanks Nicole, I got it.....