Well all, today is the day.<P>I gave the doc two weeks to leave my wife alone, get out of my life and I also needed some clues to my W leaving her job. If these were not met, I was going to send his wife a copy of the video. I'm not sure about any of these, I know my W isn't going anywhere and I bet they are still seeing each other. So...<P>1. Do I send it? <BR>2. Do I just tell her? <BR>3. Do I wait it out b/c W is being so nice?

I forgot to mention that he told her of our confrontation too altough she did not admit it. I know he did.

Given the magnitude of the action you're considering, caution is certainly needed. You're aware of this because you're asking the question. <P>Maybe you should gently ask your wife what's going on with her, e.g., "Honey, I've noticed that you've been very nice recently and I really appreciate it. Is it a good time to discuss things or should I leave you alone for a while longer?" - or something to that effect. You know that this could easily erupt into a huge LB, but giving the video tape to OM's wife will definitely do that.<P>Alternatively, you can send a copy to OM with a note asking if he's complied with your requests.<P>What was Steve's last advice?<P>Remember, you are the most powerful man in their world. You have the nuke.<P>WAT

WAT,<BR>Thanks for the insight. I am afraid to bring things up with the wife b/c it could cause an LB. Not sure about sending a copy to OM just yet b/c I do not know what he would do with it, maybe share it with my W and I don't want that. I guess I can hang on a little while and make him sweat it out or I might just have somebody else call his W and tell her.<P>I haven't talked to Steve yet about it, that will be next week, so I probably will wait out the weekend.<P>I guess your right, I do hold the nuke. Funny my new dogs name is Memphis, maybe I call her Memphis Belle after plane.

If you're talking to Steve next week, by all means, wait.<P>Memphis Belle was a B-17. The two B-29s were Enola Gay and Bock's Car. Get another dog - I have a couple if you're interested.<P>WAT

gdc, The danger of stating ultimatums is that you feel like a chump if you don't follow through, but you may change your mind and decide that it's not in your best interest after all. I had several retaliatory schemes cooked up during my H's A, none of which I carried out. Now I'm so glad I didn't. Not because we're in blissful recovery (we're not) but for my own self-respect. <P>I'm a BS and I totally sympathize with the obsession. Plan B can sometimes be the answer when it gets too overwhelming. In 2 months of no contact, I pretty much (but not totally ) recovered from the obsession because I was forced to focus on myself. During that time, the A seems to have ended, though my H and OW still have contact, as "friends."<P>Now my H is pursuing me, though he changes his mind several times a day from remorse to blame. I just make an effort not to react, realize this is HIS issue to resolve, and go about living my life. Honestly, I never thought I'd be able to do it, but I am and I'm extremely grateful to God, to MB, and to Al-Anon for helping me through this. <P>I know there can still be setbacks, my situation is far from stable. My H lived with OW for 7 months and we're still separated (I'll spare you the gory details, but let me tell you, they were there).<P>Don't try to stop your feelings, just don't feel the need to react to them. Do something for yourself every day (I started going to the gym), use MB to vent and to gain a new perspective, be gently with yourself, and do what feels right.<P>

gdc:<P>How do you know that he told her about the confrontation?<P>I sometimes struggle with whether or not to somehow tell OM's W in my case... Her sister knows but the last I heard had not told because she didn't want to cause pain. I really don't think telling OM's W matters much in my case as they are already separated and she is already getting half of his substantial $$$... But I honestly have to say that it really bothers me that TWO families are being torn up over this...<P>I also have to admit that I would love a confrontation with OM...<P>zen

gdc, I would not just send the video out of the blue. If you feel is time to tell, would simply call her, identify yourself, and that you think it your obligation to tell her about the affair. Expressing concern about the emotional issues, std issues, and the potential for ugly confrontations legal and personal. Discuss what details seem appropriate, and tell her you have photographic evidence if her husband denies the A. Also offer to exchange info if she desires to fill in the holes re details of the depth of involvemnt. Express remorse you had to bring this to her, and have already experience the awful emotions she will have now, and direct her to MB site, and materials, and wish her well.<P>btw you can extract "photos" from the video, so as to reduce the impact of the revelation. Just sending her a copy out of the blue would be cruel IMO, and unnecessary.

wat...To SNL - I postulate that "unreasonableness", just like a lovebuster, is in the eyes of the beholder. My wife may think she's being reasonable, but she's the only one. I'll bet most WSs are the same on this one until they wake up - if not, there's nothing to wake up from. Thus, if you believe you're being reasonable, maybe you're not fully awake yet. No disrespect intended, just radical honesty.<P>snl...Yes, a valid point. I wasn't so much meaning our behaviour is reasonable by normal standards, just that we are not brain dead (well most of us) and can be dealt with. It is sorta like FBI profiling of serial killers (reading a good book about that now), even though seems incomprehensible to most of us, there is in fact a very specific method to their madness, one that is discernible, and predictable, IF you look through their eyes. This can be used to define your own strategy.....fascinating stuff. You will not catch these people until you get in their heads. <P>Now ws are not heinous people, and I do think A are basically normal human behaviour, but there is definitely a different mindset from the bs. If you want to have maximum chance at success, the circumstances dictate the bs must get in the mind of the ws, that is what I meant by reasonable, and can be dealt with....but first you must get some idea of where we are coming from, not dismiss us as being in fog. My w and I are having an unfortunate setback today, she is LB all over the place, it will pass, but it reminds me of why I don't want to be here. She just dismisses that as me being in fog. That just makes me angry, and validates that all she cares about is what she wants. The issue is unimportant, but what is dangerous, is right or wrong I feel unimportant....maybe I am in a fog, maybe she is too, but dismissing my concerns out of hand is probably not the best strategy.<P>

snl - I think we're in violent agreement this time. You've hit on an idea - WS profiling (and BS profiling, for that matter). Guess we all do it, we just didn't call it this.<P>gdc - I also believe snl has some good points regarding your issue with squealing to OM's wife. More options to discuss with Steve.<P>WAT

ws profiling, that is essentially what the hareley's materials and counselling are about. The info of course is just general, and must be fine-tuned for your particular ws. The similarities to profiling of serial killers is really interesting. There is a kind of serial killer "manual" too, basic similarities amonst most of them..... BUT the specifics vary, and therein lies the skill, discerning their reality and using that to catch them. <P>My purpose (besides understanding myself, marriage in general, and the mind of the bs) in posting here is to provide insight to the mind of my kind of ws. The FBI does the same thing, interviews extensively any incarcerated serial killers/rapists they can find to increase the knowledge base. Some talk, some lie, some won't say anything. This is why I try to be annoying frank, even when I know I will be castigated, or the object of displaced anger. My purpose is not to be liked, or even respected, but is part of my um...... amends, and to do so I must be as forthright as possible.<P>Is kind of interesting, (and disconcernting) to contemplate that ws make up a certain portion of the population, have a common pathology, and are an identifiable group. Just wish I wasn't a member of that group, but since I am, I seek to make the best of it, fortuneately I am not also a serial killer or something, that would really be depressing.

SNL - I have a session with my counselor today and will bring up the issues of telling OM's wife. This has long been a huge debate in my Plan A. IS confronting the OM like I did more or less of an LB than telling his wife. I mean my wife has told me that she thinks I will tell her eventually so why not do it now. It almost makes me think that she wants me too, so that the other man will run to her. That is my biggest delima. She asked me if I really wanted to make the other man mve out of his house. No I don't want him to move out, b/c that will provide more of an opportunity for them to see each other. Telling is like a crap shoot, maybe it works the way I want it too, maybe it doesn't work the way I want it too. I need to plant a bug on my wife to see what she is really saying behind closed doors. Anybody know how to do this?<P>WAT - Thanks for you insight, are you going to get a thread going on profiling Ws's? How would we catorogrize them?

GC - I think snl is correct in that all the WS profiling we need exists right here - you know, the script, alien abductions, MBWs.<P>What I have been working on is an affair staging criteria, patterned after what I learned about staging various cancers - providing a comparable "extent of disease" scale that BSs here could use for comparison purposes. It would span the continuum of affairs as described in SAA, e.g., "My stage 3 wife has moose brain worms coming out of her ears!!"<P>What do you think?<P>WAT

WAT - I beleive that BS's would be thankful if there were something out there like that. I'm not sure what to put in there, but I like the stages criteria idea though. My stage (who knows what) W has moose brains growing out her ears as well. <BR>What kills moose brains? Plan A/B<BR>Who kills moose brains? BS's or WS's<BR>How long does each stage last?<BR>What do you think?

gdc...This has long been a huge debate in my Plan A. IS confronting the OM like I did more or less of an LB than telling his wife. I mean my wife has told me that she thinks I will tell her eventually so why not do it now. It almost makes me think that she wants me too, so that the other man will run to her. That is my biggest delima. She asked me if I really wanted to make the other man mve out of his house. No I don't want him to move out, b/c that will provide more of an opportunity for them to see each other. Telling is like a crap shoot, maybe it works the way I want it too, maybe it doesn't work the way I want it too. I need to plant a bug on my wife to see what she is really saying behind closed doors. Anybody know how to do this?<P>snl...Never ceases to amaze me how similar all our lives often are. This is exactly what my wife and I are fighting about this morning. The reasons are somewhat different, but this issue is the same, informing the op spouse. I probably shouldn't comment on this here, at this time, but I am a compulsive blabbermouth. My w is on the phone to counsellor as we speak, telling her she thinks I have this big plot about owh knowing so she will get thrown out, and I will go rescue her. She is really distressed over it. She is missing the same point you are, in worrying about this re your wife. If your wife is gonna divorce you, she will anyways, no matter what you do about this or anything else. That is why I keep saying over and over and over and over to the bs, do not choose your behaviour in terms of what you think it will do to us NO NO NO. We need to know who you are, and if you are gonna change, or make choices, based on who you are..... not in response to the current circumstances. If your changes/choices are only tactical, then we doubt they reflect who you are, but are about us, getting your ws back....This is precisely what we are trying to get away from (fog or no), feeling like property, something to be manipulated, something to be fixed, won, and is why we act confused. My wife has been doing some good stuff last few weeks, real changes in her attitude and coping mechanisms. Today she threw it all out, is reacting to me in the same old patterns, I even pointed this out, and asked if she realized it, she said yes, and blew it off, with all her million reasons why is ok. EXACTLY what she has always done, and one of the MAJOR reasons I do not want to be married to her. Normally I would have blown up at this point, but I contained myself, and finally asked her to plz leave (my area) cause I was seconds away from going ballistic, fortuneatly she complied, an improvement in itself. I am calmer now, and we will discuss this some more, the problem is I appreciate the good stuff she is doing, but the validity of marriage is not determined by when it is the easy stuff, but by when you lock horns, and what you do then....we don't do so good at that.<P>The point being you tell the omw because it is the right thing to do, the decent thing to do, and becuase you are the one with the info. Makes no difference if it helps or hurts your marriage, it is about you, and what kind of human being you are, and what you would want if positions were reversed. All do not agree with that, but I think it is an axiom. It is the essence of being our brothers keeper, and if we are willing to sacrifice someone elses well-being, when we have the means to help them (the omw), to further our own marriage, then we don't deserve the marriage we have. OTOH, if your motivations are manipulative, or vindictive, and your wife sees through it, then it is too late gdc, you are damned if you do, and damned if you don't. It is ok, to expect that this will help your marriage, that is just being hopeful, but it cannot be, should not be, your primary motivation.<P>I would tell your wife this. That the omw wife needs to know as a matter of common decency, and that the appropriate person to do it is her H. But that if he won't you must, and that if she (your w) thinks less of you, that will make you very unhappy, but you would prefer to be an ethical human being who loses his wife, than a manipultative human being that keeps his wife. This is why I suggested you do it in a compassionate, matter-of-fact manner. And is also why I suggested when you first told about your ultimatum to om, that regardless of whether he complied or not, you still told his wife, a bargain with evil is not ever binding. <P>It is not a crap shoot gdc, this is not a game, and you cannot play with the omw life, you have info vital to her well-being, and have no choice but to tell her IMO. Will you be rewarded? Quite possibly not, maybe even suffer for it, but you will have done the right thing, and only God knows the future ripples from doing the right thing, but we all know the consequences of choosing selfishly. It is quite possible your w does want you too, for the reasons you surmise, makes no difference. If that is her desire, you have lost her anyways. The way to get her back is sameo sameo, plan A and be the best gdc you can be.<p>[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited August 16, 2001).]