snl,<p>I have said this before and I will say it once again. I believe you are using the "debate" as a distrraction technique to keep you from doing any substantive work on your marriage.<p>It seems as if "debating" has become the new "mistress" in your life.<p>You spend too many hours here pondering questions that may or may not have permanent answers to them. How could you possibly be spending 15 hours per week in quality time with your W? When are you spending any quality time with your kids?<p>I will repeat myslef yet again - you are long past the debating time - you should be in ACTION mode.<p>Roll Me Away

I just wanted to throw this in..<p>It troubles me that new_beginning gets flak for endorsing the Harley philosophy. While this is a marriage building site, mine ( ws, marriage) did not respond at all to the strategies outlined here. And I worked it hard.. ( Steve, posting, reading, reading, reading, IC, MC). Many new arrivals don't seem to want to take the time to review and understand the plan, they seem to want to be rescued.. and some seem resenful when that doesn't happen..<p>But..for me, as I consider what happened to my marriage, and what comes next, the conversations on the boards continue to help me define and refine what type of relationship I would like next ( if I'm blessed to have one ), and how I would like to participate.<p>Very valuable stuff.<p>I also found that as a bs, I percieved my situation through my own filters, or maybe "blinders". The clarity of the "tough" responses helped allow me to attempt to see what really is,my truth, vs what I would want or hope. Regardless of what snl chooses to do, his descriptions have helped me, I feel. ( Y'know, I don't agree w this or that, why? ). The ability to participate in these conversations to the extent that I feel I need to help grow has helped me on many levels.<p>Very valuable stuff.<p>So..I feel the organization of the boards work. It allows a wide variety of needs to be addressed successfully, IMHO. Some in crisis just need caring words. That's fine. Many are struggling for information to help grow during this journey. The current board divisions allow this.The purpose of the place may be different for each participant ( e.g. I am not building a marriage), but this place is still invaluable, and at the end of the day, I think this is the best marriage/ relationship board around. <p>
Dan<p>[ February 24, 2002: Message edited by: Family Man ]</p>

Morning snl,
I appreciate reading your posts and though I dont always agree, you bring a differnt POV. Often your posts make me think about things in a new light, opening my mind.
Perhaps a little more respect for individualism is in order for this fine Sunday morning?

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
<strong>What do I need? Hmmmm... good question, wonder what anyone needs, or do we need what we think we need...</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Therein lies the challenge, I reckon. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>but I will take a stab at it....hmm.... hmmmm... Ok, I think I can sum it up in the short version... I need to feel safe.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Safe ...as in understood, loved unconditionally? Or safe from within, strong, confident, master of your own destiny? I’d be interested in hearing what it is that you think could make you feel safe.<p>[ February 24, 2002: Message edited by: dances.with.wolves ]</p>

SnL<p>could you guide me to the post that contains your story. Maybe that is where the real problem lies, and we should be trying to help you with your true needs.<p>I dont dissapprove of you posting but I would think once you go back and start re reading your own words you may begin to see what we all see.<p>I for one would like for you to be happy, I would like to be happy, but that does not come when your NOT listening to the feed back that we give you. You continue to look for excuses why you have to spend so much time defending your self here on the board( ie you making a mockery of yourself). This should stop, take the bits and pieces of advice everyone gives, take what you want from it and leave the rest.<p>Your continued defense to all of here is only a sign of weakness. <p>I am sorry if you feel I was a bit brutal, you dont seem to take into consideration that your still struggling, or so it seems. It is easy to see that your still not listening, really listening, listening does not require a reply, only acknowledgement that you have heard what what said.<p>I would like to be helpful and offer what I can, some of it thru my own experince, some it ideas I have. If you dont find that helpful then dont use it, but you do NOT need to come back with some long synical response about it.<p>Hang in there, this process takes time. We do care we are just tired of the excuses.

I would like to suggest that they have an SNL forum.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Patient1:
<strong>I would like to suggest that they have an SNL forum.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA <deep breath>... HAHAHAHAHAHA..<p>Oh snl, you've got to see the humor in this, right???

I think that SNL should have his own website with his own forum. STL and I found some great forum software that is freeware.<p>He's teaching me how to develop websites and I intend to have my own forum. Not that many will use it, but it could be fun.<p>You could do the same SNL, and put a link to it in our posts. You'll get the debaters over there.

SNL,
You have a such a fascinating way of complicating the simplest pleasures in life. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]

After reading the post about giving SnL a msg board all his own, i went and checked out the availablity of a domain name:<p>Your Domain Name IS AVAILABLE!<p> The following addresses are available for purchase. Check the ones that you would like to purchase.<p> SAD-N-LONELY.COM
SAD-N-LONELY.NET
SAD-N-LONELY.ORG
SAD-N-LONELY.INFO
SAD-N-LONELY.BIZ
SAD-N-LONELY.WS

mabye thats a start? [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

ok you guys, I can take a joke, (thanks for the research digital).... but indeed I (like many in the MOA ..megalomaniacs of america) have thought it might me intersting to have a web site, and may do so sometime. Indeed it would probably be for the purpose of haggling over lifes/societies issues, in a non-flaming, and purposeful (non-venting) format. I do not like useless debate, despite what many of you might think [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ... I like problem solving debate, solution oriented discourse, not debates about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin....although some of my participation here has been toward the philosophic end of human bonding, it has been for the purpose of choosing practical actions. I have to decide to remain married or not, and I have to be able to do that not only as myself, but as part of a couple...I had no framework to reconcille my feelings with my head, and so had to develop one (I had a default paradigm, but it had failed, so I needed to rework it) and it is not something you do overnight, takes some time. I needed to understand exactly what love and marriage and bonding are, now I do, now I can focus on how to proceed...<p>I will never know for sure, maybe in the future the psychologists will figure this all out...my biggest problem was (like many) I tried to fit all this into black and white explanations...but it is not binary (duh)...it is analog, it is gray, and I needed to understand the algorithm, so I could apply it to the result I think is appropriate.... marriage and divorce are actually pretty much the same thing, they are the same point on a continuum of interaction with another human being, they are a boundary of behaviour. You cannot actually choose either one, they arise out of the interaction, a combination of fit and behaviour (choice)....if you try to live on the wrong side of the boundary (either side) you (both) will be distressed.... but ascertaining where (and why) you should be on the line is not easy. It puzzles me how people can claim to love someone, yet dislike them (if the marriage ends in divorce), I can only assume they really are not in-love at at all, but rather in an accomodation..... If people fit at all, or decide at all (both paradigms fit in this case) to like/love someone, then divorce shouldn't change that at all, it just reduces the level of interaction, removes the stress of living in intimacy and sets the boundary at caring/friendship..... in a very real sense, I do not see how people who cannot be divorced friends can ever be successful intimate partners, makes no sense....<p>anyways I may be the most visible at this period of time, but I am by no means the only one interested (and need to know) in the philosophic underpinnings of marital behaviour, many are, including steve H (by his own admission)..the issue is whether this place can tolerate that need without affecting adversely other purposes the Harley's prefer for their site, and that is what the point of this thread is, not about me or my style.<p>[ February 25, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

[img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] I only read your initial post in this thread and I fear this thought. Redbook did exactly what this is purporting and it destroyed the community we all came to love, honor, respet and rely on. Just offering my thoughts, but change can be such a wonderful thing in many areas of life, but to change this board I think would be disaterous. Just my two cents worth. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

btdt....yep, I know, and that is me, love me or hate me I guess, and all of us in our infinite diversity....but I promise not to analyze a child's laughter, or a spring day, or a hot fudge sundae...... but I do need to consider intimacy with another human being as a very serious matter (as well as one of lifes greatest pleasures)...deal?

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
<strong>Debate is not necessarily a contest, or about winning or losing...it is how people find truth, call it argument, call it searching, call it whatever you want, you have to know where you are going, and simply saying lets restore marriage is inadequate, one has to answer first....why.......There is also a need to debate the tools, the harleys are not God, they are just people with a tool, one they have experience with, and one they try to teach others to use.... that doesn't mean it always works, or that they are perfect in its application....hence a need to debate the efficacy of the tool.....why would I, why would you....anyone...just blindly do what someone else says? Trust me, just do it.... some will.... and some won't.... we need proof and debate, we have to be convinced.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I don't believe that I have ever responded to any of your posts. Some of what you post I don't agree with, while there is some things that you post that I do, either way, your posts always makes me think, and if I am interpreting you correctly, is the basis for the idea of having a "debate/discussion" forum, to allow those that need this type of dialogue in order to think, receive and digest information and self reflect.<p>Btw, I wholeheartedly agree with the above quote. While this is the Harley's site, I believe we all come here looking for answers, and sometimes the elevation of the Harleys to god-like proportions can and does turn some people off, sometimes to the point that useful information is not accepted.<p>Just my $.02

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Patient1:
<strong>I would like to suggest that they have an SNL forum.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>SNL you are a good sport. [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img] You take alot from a lot of people & for the most part, stay clam. I admire you for that, can't read to many of your posts my attention span is not that long & you remind me of my STBX (I try & not hold that against you) [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Couldn't help find the quote anything but funny.<p> [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

hmmm, hopefully steve will read this thread, he is on the boards very little, lots of good points for diversity, but again this is not strictly a general marital board, it is a MB board, and they have an agenda (and rightly so, they have a laudable purpose)...I think he is aware of the dilution that would occur if content rules were stricter, as those who need "tough" love (for wont of better descriptor) choose not to participate and are lost to MB influences. I don't think they seek a "support" board either, they want (and expect) people to think about these things, and so buy into it, that cannot occur without "debate" of some kind.... but they don't want people discouraged either by strong challenges to what is marriage about anyways, and whether behavioural modification is what love is, etc.<p>I asked him why I haven't been banned (and plenty complain about me I suspect), he replied he understands my need to do this, and he believes I am sincere, and obviously I am civil, and I raise valid issues, just not necessarily always related closely enough to MB mandate..and he has left it to me to um... try not to step over the line, but I sense I push that line pretty hard from time to time.... I do not envy the position of the board moderator, whatever this board (and MB) was intended to be, clearly it has been allowed to grow into a diverse comminity, and is of great value in that sense (as diverse communities always are, vs closed communities....certainly the later is safer, but at what expense, that is always the balance issue). To ban me (or pressure me into self-censorship), and others like me is anathema to most open minded people (and steve certainly is a fair open-minded guy), hence the contemplation of a particular place to be wide-ranging, and a tightening of the rules on the rest of the places....but as folks point out, fragmentation has issues too, and may actually be counter-productive to the bottom line, marriage restoration. The bottom line (I suppose) is what is the optimum "content" for saving the most marriages, that is what the board owners must decide [assuming that is their actual agenda, as opposed to selling books... just kidding steve [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] and by the way, we have bought (and read) everything MB has for sale ]. <p>Ultimately steve will have to figure this out, then inform us so we know....I did ask what specifically in my many varieties and types of posts is a problem, but he didn't have an example at hand, so I observed that is hard for me to actually know what to do, especially in absence of a clearly written and very specific board guidelines....the default is to simply look at the board, and observe most anything is ok, long as it is civil, and does not personally attack someone (but people even do that, and I do not). Heck we have threads re sex that verge on the pornographic (IMO) I won't even begin to read them, and they make me very uncomfortable, shall we ban those? Lest I get confused and anxious about my sexuality? Or do we figure en is a safe place to discuss things that you could just not get feedback on elsewhere in life. And so forth and so on. For some, sex is their issue, way too much of an issue IMO, but that's me, my issues are more about..well you know, so won't start...and others have other issues, but it is all about marriage, and underlying it all is MB principles.....learning not to LB and what it is, the whole concept of poja, rules of protection in a marriage, EN's...all of this permeates the discussions I think....If one were to post how deliberate infidelity was helpful to a marriage, or the joys of polygamy or other alternate lifestyles, that would not be appropriate, but I see little here, (except for the occassional ow streaker) not pertaining to traditional marriage, and how it works, doesn't work, and what to do about it. <p>I am usually more um...supportive of divorce, not cause I disbelieve MB can work, but because I think distance seperation/divorce is often very much needed to break the pattern of co-dependentcy. To free up people to decide whether they really want to be married, whether the relationship really is healthy, to get away from each other long enough to see if that is ok.... there is just something creepy about trying to modify behaviour (a form of pressureing, trying to change someone) and downplaying very real differences in people, that maybe they don't want to change. There is guilt used in MB, and it is usally used (skillfully) to coerce people into "working" on marriage cause it will benefit the kids, extended family, spouse, etc. and why would you want to cause these people pain if you care about them, and by the way, we will make you be happy in the process....this is very powerful stuff, and is exactly the technique used in brainwashing (albeit maliciously, but the same coming at ya, over and over and over, until you accept the "truth"), trying to remove self from ones considerations...it is a fine line, just like using chemo to almost kill someone in order to cure them, vs using drugs to interrogate or manipulate someone, same tool different purpose. Personally I think indfidelity (most of what MB is dealing with) is a serious enough sympton that the marriage is essentially dead, and must be reborn, I think it could be very revealing for people to first divorce, live apart, go to MB?Dr phil boot camp, find out who they are, how they want to live, then start dating spouse again (and have interactions with others....) no sex, start over, make friends, see if it works, and eventually remarry, in other words do it the way they should have before they married in the first place. I suspect this would have much better outcomes (as in healthier, happier, people)...it would break-up the co-dependentcies, reveal who is marriage material, or not, and solve the fitting problems. Obviously all the financial, domestic pressures, and parenting needs, would have to be addressed, but I am just speaking to this in terms of intimate relationships, and whether they are healthy or not.<p>But I digress, another solution, for all boards, not just this one... is greater resources for decideing who you want to interract with...IRL we choose where and who to associate with, can do that on-line too.....there are some rudimentary tools, such as ignore options....The first responsibility we have (before complaining) is to not read the posts of folks we know upset us, and that really should work here, wonder if steve could incorporate the ignore function...that only leaves the new arrivals, how do they know someone will upset them, until they have become upset....maybe they need to be restricted for a short time to a new arrivals board, specifically to support and gently educate them, if they subsequently choose to move to the general board, the rules of engagement make it clear some posters may distress them, and offer the ignore function. I hope to see also sometime the evolution of an on-line persona that follows you around to various communities, the persona is in part related to how the rest of the world views you, things like honesty, civility, communication style, sympathy, empathy, anger, etc... people (and communities) can then pick and choose who to interact with right up front....and the bullies, ner do wells, stalkers, and other riffraff cannot inflict themselves on us...likewise those who do not want to deal with um....sarcasm, tough talkers, and so forth have some means to do so...on-line is generally a safe place, but those who come on strong can make it uncomfortable for the more gentle spirits amongst us, and we need to encourage them to participate and not be run off by rough and tumble....usually someone will come to the defense of such folks and try to get the rough crowd to back off (which they usually do, they are just enthusiastic and mean no harm), but it would be nice to more directly empower the gentler folks, so they do not have to be defended and can go about their lives in peace...<p>Anyways, just some more random thoughts, and hopefully before anyone gets banned, they get some specific feedback on what exactly is the line being crossed, but ultimately it is a private forum, and IMO the moderators can do whatever they please, no argument from me.<p>[ February 25, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

SNL, <p>You said you use debate as a problem solving tool. That you "problem solve" for a living. <p>You've been here many, many months now. From a problem solving standpoint, is your marriage better or worse as a result of the methods you have employed to *learn* on this web site? Are you treating your wife with more kindness and patience and are you fixing the destructive behaviors you have engaged in that contributed to your marriage being less than a safe and happy haven for two?<p>BTW, I have problem solved for a living too. Professionally, now, I'm in sales. But many of the jobs I have been hired to do have involved a high degree of problem-solving ability. Many times, we must identify the problem and find the solution within the time it takes to make two phone calls. I have to be able to research that quickly; there is no time for debate with most issues that are life or death. <p>How would you adjust your ever learning and never coming to a knowledge of the truth behavior you have demonstrated repeatedly on this board, if your life depended upon it?

SNL, you said you use debate as a problem solving tool, which I respect. Problem solving usually involves actually solving something though, and I don't see much evidence of that. Often I suspect you use it more for problem-solving avoidance.<p>As for the forum, you know, there are numerous debate boards on the web already...for life, love, general philosphy, religion, politics, you name it. I don't think MB needs a debate forum...I think it would be counterproductive, and siphon off a lot of energy that could be better used to focus on helping people who need and want help.<p>Kathi

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by s_n_l:
<strong>
...purposeful (non-venting) format. I do not like useless debate, despite what many of you might think...</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Gosh, this sure sounds like a WS and not a BS. So what do you propose the BS does? Vent at the next church social? OH I know? How about the next family gathering??? The neighborhood block party? Cool!<p>Most of the BS's who vent here are doing so to avoid love busting their WS's who probably don't even deserve their Plan A efforts.<p>As quiet as it's kept, Dr.Harley said he would divorce his wife and vice versa if either of them had any affair... Only she would kill him first.<p>To even suggest that BS's safe place to vent is "not purposeful" is a shame. OTOH, I can understand why you say it is not purposeful, if the BS refuses to move past the venting (resentful) stage... But the problem is that THEY NEED THEIR WS'S HELP IN ORDER TO DO THAT!<p>thinker is posting all over the place that your new OW is now your computer... and how you eat breakfast with the computer...and sit there all night on your computer. You are not hearing her, or perhaps you purposefully ignore her. Oh well... Just my observations...<p>You say you are interested in intimacy, but not with your own wife. She's really the only one whose opinion really counts when it's all said and done. Not the people's opinions on the boards... Maybe you need to learn to speak your wife's language? Then, maybe she will begin to hear you as well?<p>[ February 26, 2002: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</p>

btdt, we have a misunderstanding re my comment in this thread about venting. Was NOT referring to this board, venting is an integral part (and need) here...nor was it about being a ws......I was referring to the comments about people having their own sights and how I would like one where pure ideas solutions (about anything and everything) were discussed and emotion kept to a minimum in how that was done....ok?<p>[ February 26, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>