My departing words of wisdom - Marriage Builders® Forums

Hello my dear and wonderful friends,As the subject title suggests, I am departing. I have only one reason for this decision, and it is the most obvious one, I think. I don't want to be married anymore, hence the subtraction of the word builder in my marriage vocabulary.There are some things I'd like to say, to clarify my situation, and maybe to bring some comfort...Here I go with the "gospel" according to Sheryl:Although Harley's principals work very well for some (possibly most) they are not the end-all truth for all. Total Honesty is a principle I have lived by in my day to day life, always has been. However, in the past year, I have found that total honesty, especially when talking about my adultery and my H's, has been a mistake of huge proportion. I'm going to be blunt now, and it may offend some, so be prepared... nobody needs to know the size of the OM's penis or OW's nipples, yet these are the kinds of questions that the betrayed ask and expect to get an answer to. In my very humble opinion, these are questions that can destroy to the very core of your spouse. And they are lose/lose types of questions. There is no way to make a penis or nipples larger, for example, and no matter what the betrayer says about "emotional needs" the betrayed will feel they can never live up to the "other things" - and they can't!! So, I think that words should be chosen very carefully, the basic facts should be shared (how long did it last, did you sleep with him/her, did you love him/her) but leave the details out. Again, my opinion.The betrayed is already dead to the core. It is asking nearly the impossible to impliment Plan A. Here your spouse is, in the midst of an affair, and you, the betrayed, is asked to "love them back" into the marriage. Yes, in the strongest of cases, (and that includes some of you here, god love you) the betrayed can pull themselves up and ignore their needs to woo the betrayer back, but I have to ask, "at what cost?". There are such things as self-respect and self-esteem, and not to sound too new-agey, but "loving" at the expense of your self-worth is not really a marriage at all. I know there are some very strong souls that have done this and had it work, and have marriages stronger than before. God, if I could come and give you a big hug and help you write a chapter to a book on how to do it, I would. You are saints above all mankind. But you are the exception, I think. And the saddest thing of all is this: some marriages will not be saved, no matter what you do. I would never expect anyone to "hang on" through some of the crap and mire that many of you wade through. I won't name names but, dear ones, advising someone to hang on through emotional abuse is just as bad as physical abuse. If a spouse refuses to stop the affair, is abusing the other (in any way!), or does NOT want to work on the marriage AT ALL, then I think that it's time to face reality and end the misery. I hate divorce. I hate it with a passion. And don't get me wrong, I believe in fighting for what is morally and legally right. But when it is, again, at the expense of your self, then I say these words we all dread, "LET GO". I believe that God has bigger and better plans for you than to spend your days in turmoil and pain. And for the more positive: THIS MESSAGE BOARD SAVED MY LIFE. I am sure that many of you will agree. There is a kinship here that can't be beat!! I am merely a name on a message board to many of you, and to some I believe I am a friend. These relationships that have been forged are as true and pure as any other on earth. I do not want to lose any of you because of what I've said here. I hope that we can keep in touch. Truly, I love many of you MORE than the "friends" with faces.I do not want to hurt anyone with my words. I respect any and all who desire to build their marriages, I just can't any longer. My situation is certainly far better than some here, mainly because my H and I are friendly to each other (at least for the most part), have loved each other for 20 years, and sadly, because we have both betrayed (don't try this at home folks!). We have a unique understanding that should have bade us well, I think. But instead it killed us, physcially and emotionally. I will check back over the course of the next few days, and if GOD WILLING something happens that brings my H and I back together, I will be back. Honestly, dear ones, I don't see it happening. I wish each and every one of you a lovely and peaceful holiday season filled with the kindness, love, and the heartfelt kisses of your spouses. ~Sheryl------------------ Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss it you are among the stars!!

NB, I am sorry to see you go but you must do what you think is right for you. I agree with you on alot of things. I too feel that I can no longer work on my marriage, but not for the same reasons as you. We all must face a time when we have to make decisions like this. I am sorry that you feel you must leave, I think that you should lurk here and post when the urge hits you. You have said you have made many friends here, and I know that they will want to stay in touch with you, as would others. Please check in and let us know how you are doing. I for one will miss you. ------------------ di

hi nb, read my rsponse to trublu. I think we were posting at the same time. I absolutely agree that no one needs all the details. I am in conflict with Harely here...but only to a point. The focus needs to be on the goal, not on the past events that brought us here. The way this reply is now set up, I have to go back to the oringial thread! Sorry, my brain is mush from the party at debs last night. And.....I need a stinkin heater-it is snowing!

Okay, re-read and am back. Losing oneself in the process of saving a marriage will not work in the long run. I believe that some can put the marraige and the spouse first and implement plan a. But there is a point where SELF has to be reckoned with. This is the issue with boundaries. We have talked some on boundaries in the past. What is my limit, how far am I willing to go to help this marriage? How far am I willing to go to help my spouse? What will I tolerate, and what is just plain too much?! To have healthy boundaries I think you need to know yourself before you can even think about repairing a damaged marriage. I was lucky in some ways...a few months after discovery while still in the angry/hateful/depressed phase, my h went overseas for a few months for work. This was hard because I had to give him trust that he certainly had not earned at that point. It also increased my dependence on my great friends at mb! But at the same time, it gave me a chance to find myself, make some decisions void of h's pressure and expectations. It let me stand back, be critical, be passionate about what is important. It let me see my SELF. Similar to a separation with minimal contact? NB, I am explaining this because perhaps it would help your situation? Do you think that a few months apart would stabilize your marriage? Let you really see where you and h are?

new_beginning -- Sheryl, I have not been around much for the past week. I came this morning to check up on the friends I have here, and the post which jumps out at me is yours. . .I am truly sorry that you have reached this point in your marriage. I know how much it hurts you to have to say and feel the things you are. I for one, consider you to be a friend of mine here at MB and will miss your presence very much. I hope that you will come back once in a while to check up on those of us who have known you.You and I have talked via E-Mail a few times . . . I pray that even if you don't come to this board very often, that you will keep in touch individually.I pray that God will give you the peace you need in your life, and the strength to move forward.I will miss you Sheryl.God Bless

~Sheryl,{{{{{{{{{{~Sheryl}}}}}}}}}The honesty of your opinions were so impressive to me. God help you down whatever journey you take...Heal... [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

[Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Jim

Sheryl, Although many will miss you here( I for one) I totally understand where you are coming from. Although I am one of those rare individuals who for some strange reason has been able to understand what caused my H to have the affair and have been able to get my marriage back on track without losing my self respect and pride. I knew that what he was doing was not what he wanted and that he really got caught up in something he wasn't expecting. I agree with you that there are friends of ours on the board who just need to let go. I myself would not have hung on forever. Life is way to short and everyone deserves someone who will love them. I'm so sorry that your marriage didn't survive. I'm glad though that you have come to some semblence of peace and unserstanding about it. I wish for you only happiness in the future. You deserve it.Love,Jill

Sheryl,All I can say is that I will miss you very much! Best of luck to you in the future - EACH and EVERY person deserves happiness and peace in life....Desiree

Thank you all who've replied so far... I do feel loved here...As an addendum to my original post, I'd like to add this:My husband is normally, under different circumstances, a wonderful, moral, giving man. He has worked very hard for his family, and has shown great devotion over the years. Living without him will prove to be the most difficult thing I have ever endured, as is evidenced by the already painful times we have had over the last six months or so. I would say this situation has been more painful than my son's disabilities, my mother's cancer, and my cancer scare. I consider my marriage to have been my saving grace for many years. I will always love my husband. I think he will always love me, at least he has said so. There is no hate here, no regrets: except of course the measures we took to get each other's attention, namely the affairs. I don't want anyone to go away with the idea that my H is anything less than a good husband, a good father, a good man. It is my prayer that he and I can continue a close relationship for the rest of our lives. Maybe, just maybe, we can find each other again one day and be a couple. That would be nice. But if not, there are no bad feelings here. I just wanted you all to know that.~Sheryl------------------ Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss it you are among the stars!! [This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited November 20, 1999).]

Dear Sheryl,I will miss you. I consider you to be a true 'faceless' friend'. You have heard my crys for help, and came arunnin'. You have helped so many people here. You are wonderful.As cl said, I think that a seperation is exactly what you and your h need. I am not saying that all will be well w/ your marriage, but time is a GREAT healer.Your post gave me goosebumps. I read it, and re-read it. You are so right about taking care of yourself and your self respect. I truly wish you much happiness. You deserve it. Please check in everyo once in a while and let us know how you are, OK?God reveals His plan to us, when He is ready.God bless you,CherylPS. you can e-mail me if you would like. I'd love to hear from you. cc7315@yahoo.com

Sheryl,Take care and find the joy in your new journey. I've been at MB for about a year now and have seen many come and go. These faceless people really do remain in your heart and thoughts. I was over the pain, over the depression but just couldn't let go of the anger at my betrayer and all infidels in general. I was close to screwing up my new relationship as I saw him as a potential infidel. Your many posts helped me understand the pain of infidels unrelated to withdrawal. I don't think I ever saw you wishing for phone calls, making excuses and staying in your marriage for martyr like reasons. You just tried with such obvious honesty.The 'Gospel According to Sheryl' makes a ton of sense. Thanks for your words ... I'll miss them.Add InShock to your friend list.

NB,I respect & admire you for doing what is right for you, even though it will be very hard.I totally agree with you, in that we cannot attempt to save our marriages at the expense of ourselves. When I read some of Harley's writings about infidelity, I thought he said that there were situations that warranted immediately resorting to Plan B & those included abuse (both physical & emotional). He categorized a continued affair as emotional abuse. He also advised that total separation is always risky. So, with this in mind, I beleive that an attempt at a Plan A (under these circumstances) should be done at the discretion of the betrayed. Everyone has a different tolerance level, & once the betrayed begin to feel their self-esteem/respect eroding, then Plan B should be implemented without hesitation. While in Plan B, I also think that a target date should be set, so that if the situation does not improve, a decision should be made at that point by the betrayed (if the betrayer is still sitting on the fence.) That way they feel like they have some control over their life, & the limbo state will not last indefinitely. And yes, gory details are not necessary & will only cause more pain.And, yes again, in that not all marriages will survive a catastrophe like this.You will be sorely missed. Please check back in once in awhile & let us know how you are doing.Good Luck & God Bless You,Sidney

NB,Please Explain?--------------------------------------------- Total Honesty is a principle I have lived by in my day to day life, always has been. --------------------------------------------- How does this fit in with your actions? You slept with another man without your H's knowledge and still profess Total Honesty?

Thanks everyone for replying. I was going to wait until Monday to pull this up for the weekday people, but dj's question needed attention:dj,It is precisely because I have always been so honest that this entire affair went against everything I've ever believed, and caused such untold guilt and shame that I could barely function. I agree with you that the basic premise of infidelity is dishonest. I will say that in the three months of the affair I was not "myself" and was indeed dishonest. However, my H did not have to drag the truth out of me, I gave it willingly. Not happily, mind you. The counselor, my friends, my family, and even my H all agree that the reason that I became SO ILL was because it went against everything I've always believed. Thank you for allowing me to clarify. I wish you well in recovery of your marriage. ------------------ Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss it you are among the stars!!

Sheryl,You are absolutely right. Some things are un-winnable. I will say this though, while these approaches may not save your marriage, I know we can both agree that they saved US. I too, am headed for a divorce and am still friendly with Terri (not the one here), the kids are gonna make it because of what I've learned here. She gets no credit for the initiation of friendliness. That's where I have gotten my strength; everything in moderation (including these concepts and this board). Don't get me wrong, I am giving credit where credit is due. In my case I have struggled thru this relationship and marriage trying to prevent this from happening... it happened anyway. The danger of loving (and hoping to change) a "chonically unhappy", depressed woman. That's a whole 'nother story. Best of luck to you, I know how you feel. Oh, and by the way, dj, get a clue!Eric32

Sheryl,I like many others hate to see you go. It is my hope that you and your H find the happiness that you seek. It is my fondest hope that by some miracle that you two find each other within that happiness. Good Luck to you and you future endeavors.God Bless You and Your Family

Hey Sheryl!I noticed you changed your signature! Sign of things to come! I like your new one though! I am glad you received good news on your health, please start taking care of you! So sorry for you, but hope all things work out to the best .... whatever that will be~ Do let us know from time to time how you are! Take Care/God BlessM------------------ Mater

Hi Sheryl,I'm so new here, but your words have helped so much. I agree with all that you said in your farewell post. It is something I will consider in a few months - what is my cut off point ?? I'm so glad that you are remaining friends with your H - I for one think it is so much nicer, happier and healthier if we can do that. At the moment I HATE my H with a passion, but believe it or not, I don't think he realises that. That's because I try so hard to accept my hatred for what it is, it is the anger of the moment, it is not really hatred. We are remaining 'friendly' throughout this mess, because I believe our 2 little daughters deserve that. I'm glad you and your H feel that way also.Please take care of you, I will never forget your name 'new beginning'JopsMy h's OW's surname is MOON. In your little ditty at the bottom, could we change it to 'shoot the moon, and then you'll be amongst stars !!! " Sure would make me feel better. (until the police came!!)

nb,Gee its sad that we may never see you again in here...your talents and insights have helped so many...its so sad that we all are in here in the first place, but thank God for this place that we all can express and hear others too...Perhaps when things are happier for you, you will visit and post again... [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Maybe its just as well we dont know whats in our futures...who knows... the deep love you and your H have for each other is maybe what will carry you thru some painful times and keeps the spark of hope for a better tomorrow, that brings tidings that we sometimes could never imagine could happen...No relationship is ever over, only temporarily busy with other learning... Take care ....good luck...and many blessingscossie ------------------ To know who you are is to see who I am....

Hi Sheryl,Me checking in as well...haven't been here in over a week. I too will be sad to see you go. I've enjoyed your insights and have learned.I almost hate to say it but I agree with what you say. You do make sense. There comes a time when it hurts too much to keep banging one's head against the wall. Yes, and too much honesty can hurt.You're right, not all marriages can be saved, not all marriages should be saved. But who knows when it's time to give up? I guess none of us do until we finally reach it. And, I believe it's such a personal decision that no one can judge for someone else.I say all of this even though I'm definitely one who keeps pushing people on the Forum to stay and work. During most of my stay in this group I've felt I could serve a role as someone who has "made" it. Suse and I are living proof that a broken marriage can be fixed.We were very lucky. Things could have been different. We almost split twice, at minimum. But with that luck and a lot of tenacity and stubborness, we made it. And, we both grew along the way. But, it took a long, long time.Anyways, I don't mean at all to be preachy. You've fought a good fight, Sheryl. I admire you alot as a person. I hope you find joy and contentedness in your life. Whatever decisions you believe best.Peace.DMac

Eric32,I am happy for you that these principles are allowing you to divorce as friends. Unfortunately, in my case, it seems to have had the opposite effect. I think my H, too, was chronically unhappy. He is not willing to talk to me in person for more than a couple of minutes, he will not look me in the eye, he has distanced himself more and more. At least when he first left, and I was desparately trying to find out what went wrong, he would still talk to me, he would still show some emotion. Being "nice" to him, allowing him to feel "safe" has backfired terribly - it allows him not to deal with anything. I think my being nice to him is making him feel so guilty that he can not handle being with me at all. I think it was Distressed who said in another post that the only way they can handle their guilt is through not thinking about it, or getting angry, and I think that is exactly what he is doing. And no one can say that when one parent is unwilling to talk to the other, and insists on virtually all communication being only be email, that it is good for the children.

Sheryl, I guess I don't really belong here anymore. Except for the paper work, my marriage is over. I don't have the strength to even try anymore, and the waiting on H was killing me. Maybe somethings do just have to end. Anyway, I have found much comfort in your postings. And I wish you the best in life. Hugs, ATW

Sheryl, If you are checking in, please see my post to you under my thread, Barely Alive....Hope you are feeling a weight off today!!!!!!Desiree

I hate to see you go to. When someone as wonderful as you ends up in divorce. I know that there is no hope for me. I am so afraid that my marriage is not going to make it. My H doesn't know about the affair but, the guilt is eating away at me. He is a smart man and knows that i suffer terribly from guilt even if i try to please myself (master*******). He has been extremely nice lately and wants me to move home. I can't but I'd love to live in my house again. He still hasn't gotten counseling for his anger. This has caused me to become distant with the one i Love most God. Om will not leave me alone.(please God help) I don't know what to do? I'm sorry for my rambling on your good-bye page. God bless and Good luck

Sheryl, I really wish you'd reconsider leaving the forum. Yes, this site is named "Marriage Builders" but, as you have recognized and as some others have discovered,,,it's not always possible or the wisest choice. I honestly agree with most of your post. However, you have made some real strong friendships here. Your decision to give up your attempt to save your marriage does not mean you have to surrender your friendships here. These friends still need you and you're going to need them too. With or without your H!! There are many people on this forum to give hope and inspiration to those rebuilding their marriages. For those people that aren't able to do so, hope and guidance is also needed. Your sound advice, logic, care and compassion for all that are in this situation is needed. Perhaps you don't feel strong enough to do so now and I completely understand, if that's the case. But please consider returning if you are able to gain the strength to help those that find themselves in your shoes. Your words of wisdom are needed Sheryl,,if not as a "Marriage Builder" then at least as a "Marriage Survivor" [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Sheryl, I don't want to see you go, but if you think it's the best thing for you, then do it. However, you do have a lot of friends here. We didn't know each other well, but I consider you a friend who supports me and cheers me up. I don't have time to post the sad story right now, but my marriage is down the tubes as of Friday, so I know a little of how you feel.Stay with us if you can, or just pop in from time to time. We need you. Maybe we can help when you need it.Hugs and my deepest appreciation.....

Sheryl, I don't make it here as much as I used to,but wanted to respond to your post.I guess some marriages don't have what it takes to survive anything,mine included.I thought we had a good marriage,but my W feels otherwise,and has moved on.After a while what's the point in beating yourself up,trying to save a marriage that just isn't there anymore?When I'm divorced,not sure if I'll ever marry again.If a wife of 22 years could do this to me,what's a wife of 5 or 10 years going to do?Lose her identity,dump me for somebody else,and walk away with half my retirement savings?I can't afford to take that chance,given the high failure rate of second marriages.But I know we'll come through this in one piece,other people have.I wanted to thank you for all responses to my posts,and hope you can find some happiness for yourself.Take care. --Murph

I wish there was an icon that conveyed confusion!! Sheesh!!I was going to come back this evening to just pull this thread up for the weekday-only folks, but I actually have a bit of news too... which of course, will be buried within this post... oh well, maybe it will just make ME feel better to write, so here goes...My H has been praying about us. I wasn't really sure why, honestly. We've both been so hurt, so angry, and have gone back and forth about staying, leaving, staying, leaving. Anyway, he read what I posted here, and the responses. He certainly wasn't surprised, but he felt that he needed to explain some things to me. Here's what he told me: He said that he was close to suicide on Thursday night. I have begged him to find help, get some counseling, ANYthing. He won't do it. But he has been speaking with some Christian friends who have been praying with and for him. Anything that helps, of course, but I still wish he'd get some help. Thing is, these people have been praying, and my H feels that God has not given his final thoughts on whether this marriage should end or not. One of the things he (my H) is waiting on is an answer from the apartment managers where he'd found an apartment. He says that if it works out, he's moving and it's over, and if it doens't work out then God wants us to try again, which means he's putting the ring back on and trying again. Can you sense the confusion at our house? What a royal mess!! I look into this man's face and all I see is pain, and more pain, mostly caused by me. He can't make a final decision, is leaving it up to God, and if "God" says no, then I'm suppose to believe that we belong together, even though nothing has been resolved, he won't go to counseling, he can't forgive me, and we are both completely miserable. So, the decision falls on me. I guess I belong here after all... at least until he hears from this apartment, because, let me tell ya, I can't make the decision right now. I feel like the queen of the hypocrite parade!! I'm going nuts. ~Sheryl------------------ Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss it you are among the stars!! [This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited November 22, 1999).]

new_beginning -- You will always be welcome here. Your advice to all of us, myself included, is very valuable. If I can be of any help to you myself, please let me know.Either way, you have my thoughts and prayers each and every day.God Bless

Hi NB -Does your last post mean that I don't have to say good-bye? Good, because I don't want to!!!Your H is very depressed and does need counseling....maybe you can get those Christian friends of his to pray for that!!Yes, life is definitely in a confusing and painful state for you two....but it is within you both to change the marriage for the better. The trick is to get H to realize that he is keeping himself in the state that he's in..... I'd get some professional advice on how to get him to a counselor.How about a family member or someone that he would listen to?Oh, one other thing that I wanted to say was regarding what you said about going against yourself with the Honesty, etc.This is so true.....when I was trying to be a b*#*ch to my H, I made myself physically ill.....I looked and felt like death!!!! It all ended after I stopped doing the things that went against myself and realized that all we CAN DO is find our solutions the best way that coincides with remaining true to ourselves.....A very important lesson for me.HUGS, STRENGTH AND PRAYERS to you both,Sheba

Just another curve and drop in the the rollercoaster ride. Just when we think we have it figured out the womething happens to confuse us even more. See my post H after 4 months contacted his parents. Now I feel I am back to square one. I mean nothing has changed but my emotions. But sometimes that is what hits us the hardest emotions. I am sorry you are so confused and can't make a decision, but I for one am glad you are back. ------------------ di

Sheryl: I wasn't going to respond because I didn't "see" in your post what you were saying. When you replied this last time I saw more what I thought.It sounds to me like you still love each other but are stuck and don't know how to get past the point you are at. You have given up and are looking for something to guide you because you have lost the will to guide yourselves. This can actually be the best thing that could have happened. But I will suggest this, your H is looking for a sign from God in the way of this apartment. You are looking for the sign from your H. You both may never get a "sign". Give it to God and just let things happen as they will or I should say as HE will. I saw that part in your first post, starting to let go. But do not put your resolve to ending it, rather to growing in God for yourself, and the rest will fall in place, with you you and H together or apart. Who knows? God.Good luck Sheryl, you are approaching the place where you'll finally find some answers.Prayers for you, God bless.------------------ 1Co:2:4: And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: 1Co:2:5: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

NB -- I nearly got chills when I read your post. Your feelings are so similar to mine. H and I are very friendly. I keep hoping for an unsolicited "I love you" or "I miss you". Doesn't happen. He also has beenc chronically unhappy and depressed. I understand your pain and know it is time for you to put all this in His hands. Heal yourself spiritually and physically. Maybe in time you guys will "find each other" again if there is love there. Don't go away from the forum unless you feel it drags you down. Your advice is always appreciated.

NB:The fat lady ain't singing yet, apparently.Your initial post was right on the money, IMHO. I've long felt that knowing every gory detail can't possibly help with closure. Some things ARE best left unsaid.Even if your marriage doesn't stay together, you still have learned a lot here and have a lot to offer. I hope you'll decide to lurk, if nothing else, and offer your wisdom where applicable.

Color me still confused, but waiting now.Yes, it has to rest on God, because for the life of me, I don't know what to do!Paul Moyers said something interesting, which I believe, about the fact that we may never get that sign from God. I actually told my H that yesterday. Even if the apartments don't work out, it doesn't mean that we are suppose to be together as things are, it just means that the apartment didn't work out. Sheba, I've tried to get help for my H, and you've put an idea in my head about an intervention type thing. I'll think on that! I'll write again later when I hear from my H about the apartment (his answer from "God"). I guess I'm just gonna have to wait it out. Yuk.------------------ Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss it you are among the stars!!

Hi Sheryl, It's me again. The key to applying the principles espoused by the Harleys is to tie them back to God. The Plan A thing ties back to the unconditional love that God shows us. We love because He loved us first. He does not withhold love from us because we don't meet some criteria that He has set up. He loves us and corrects us by allowing us to suffer in ways that we often think is unfair because we don't know the whole picture just the part that He has revealed to us.------------------ God Bless, Rob

Yes Rob, I understand... the weaver, and all that...have you read that poem? Beautiful. But again, even Jesus would say not to be a doormat, don't you think?? It is a unique individual that can love despite being slapped in the face, either physically or emotionally, over and over and over... don't you think??Beleive me, I love God, and believe in unconditional love - certainly it's understandable in human terms when talking of our children, and in spiritual terms when we speak of the Cross. I don't know, Rob... very difficult, at best.------------------ Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss it you are among the stars!!

Sheryl, I know where you are coming from. It is difficult when we try to do it ALONE. We have to let Him use us. I am beginning to feel those feelings but He keeps reaffirming me with sermons I hear on the radio and the portion of the Bible that I read on any given day (I have a devotional Bible that I am reading to read the Bible through in a year.)I am finding that He is my Comforter. Any love that I experience through her is really from Him. I merely want to be the love Him the way He loves me. I am ABSOLUTELY NOTHING without Him. When He is calling the shots it is very easy even though it is killing me to do some of it.Even Jesus said that the flesh is weak but the spirit is willing. That is where I am right now. I keep going on because He gives me the strength to go on not to mention to have endured all that I have gone through in the last 6 years of my life. I don't fault her. I do hate the THINGS that she does but the things are not the person. God does answer prayer and I know that He will do just what He has said.Trust Him COMPLETELY. You sound as though you are holding a little bit of yourself in reserve. It wasn't until I gave it ALL to Him that I was able to feel the way that I do now. Satan is very busy beating me up but God gives me a way out. I have been wanting to find someone to ease my pain with, to hold me, to tell me that they love me. Yet, God presents me with a way out. However, it is my choise to take that way out. So far, I have done just that. That is where it is my decision. I cling to Him because I can trust no one including myself. I trust only Him from a complete perspective.------------------ God Bless, Rob [This message has been edited by professorg (edited November 22, 1999).]

Hi, Sheryl.. I took a break. Can't take a break anymore. Too much happens.Hang in there. The answer will come to you when you stop trying to force a decision. You know that.Don't want to say goodbye yet. Not gonna. Besides, I know where to find you!!!Let us know, ok?{{{{{{{{{{{Sheryl}}}}}}}}}}}}Lori

Well, those of you who've waded throught this with me: no news is NO news...H called apartments, still no word one way or the other... now is this God saying "patience" or is this us being really impatient, or is this a sign to just let the whole ding-dong thing go (but possibly lose the money he put down in the first place, which, by the way, has been sitting in their pocket the whole time)??????Oh, woe is me!!! Not really, just, as usual, confused out the ying-yang...Now where IS that confused icon???------------------ Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss it you are among the stars!!

New_B,I have just been catching up with your thread and read about your H and his unwillingness to seek counceling. But sure seems that you two have a considerable amount of love for each other.I don't know why but somehow it seems to me that it is IMPORTANT that you read a thread on this site NOW!!! It is by a woman named "Francis" and she has been posting on the "Why Women Leave Men" forum. Please go look up all of her posts and read them. If your H will read them have him do so as well. Her story is different in some ways from yours but it really illustrates what the correct kind of counceling can do. She has only posted on that forum so you can find all of her posts. PLEASE GO READ IT !!!! Somehow, there is something in there for you and your H. I just don't know what it is, but I have a very strong feeling something about her story is very important to you and H. Let me know when you have read it.Good Luck and God Bless You and Your Family[This message has been edited by Just Learning (edited November 22, 1999).][This message has been edited by Just Learning (edited November 22, 1999).]

New Beginning: Thank you for your sincerity. I am so glad that someone has finally come out and brought to the attention of all here that the Harley principals do not work for everyone! It takes two people to work on a marriage. Not one poor person knocking themselves out, grasping for a shred of hope, putting up with all the nonsense that their spouse is putting them through. Yes, they/we are being emotionally abused!!! I encourage everyone to do some reading on the topic.One evening I read your post where you said that your doctor asked you what you wanted and you said...OUT! I was astonished at some of the responses you received. Here you are very ill, and we know what added stress can do to a person, and you were being encouraged to "hang on"...keep working on your marriage, that "you don't know what tomorrow might bring". It was truly pitiful! I could not believe what I was reading!!! I actually felt nauseous reading that so called "support". My heart went out to you.You are one classy lady! Your posts have always been sincere, well written, and intelligent. It would be in the other's best interest to read some of your past posts, they could learn something from you.Wishing you all the best. Take good care of yourself...Desperado

I am moved beyond words at some of the responses I'm getting, and I just wanted you all to know that I am listening, digesting, and hopefully rebuilding at least MY life, if not the marriage. A quick word to Desperado... you are, as so many have been, much too kind to me. I have to tell you, that illness opened my eyes in a way that nothing else has before. I am a bit obsessive about my health (okay, I'm a hypochondric [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

) and this pain was SO REAL, and the doctors were SO CONCERNED, and that hasn't happened since my son with disabilities was born. That kind of concern scared me so much, and I honestly thought I might have cancer. It was the WORST. I know that several here said to "hang in there" and they meant that in the nicest way, of that I am sure. Just like when you nervously try to give sympathy when a loved one dies, it is awkward sometimes to find the right words. I know I have sometimes struggled with the fine line between fighting for that which you believe (and let's face it, here in MB-land that is your marriage) and fighting for your sanity and health. Seems that when things are really at their worst, never the twain shall meet!! Again, thank you for your glowing words.~Sheryl------------------ Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss it you are among the stars!!

Desparado, I am one who said to hang in there. I did not say to hang in there because the Harley principles don't work. I said hang in there because I do as God says to do: spread His word. I was appealing to that part of us all that needs to be nurtured: our spirit. When we nurture our spirit then we seek to be one with God who hates divorce. True HAPPINESS resides in Him only. If we try to find it outside of Him we will always find that we will be critical and want to blame the other person for our unhappiness when the source of our unhappiness is that we do not have the relationship He desires us to have with Him because of our disobedience. He will not force us to do His will. He wants us to love Him the way that we love our human parents.When we think of self ONLY then we have our focus on ourselves rather than on Him. That is where we make our error: we have madde ourselves the most important thing. To truly make ourselves the most important thing we have to put ALL others (enemies included) before ourselves. Now if the unbeliever chooses to leave then that falls on the unbeliever.Yet, love must be tough as defined by James Dobson. It means doing those things covered in either Plan A or B. No, God does not want us to be doormats but He expects us to act as Jesus did. He did not attempt to get retribution when He was here on earth. That time will come when the Father exacts His wrath on those who continue to disobey. I am letting my W do whatever she thinks is necessary. I know that if I treat her with the loving kindness that God has taught me that she will either be won to Him and thus me or she will run and be miserable when she finally understands. The loving kindness is like heaping hot coals on her head.I hope that I didn't come across to strong because this is something that I am very passionate about. Please forgive me if I chose the wrong words to express my passion.------------------ God Bless, Rob

If you've been keeping up with this, you'll know that my H has been waiting for "God to decide" if we should be together. The latest thing he has been "waiting" on is whether or not he gets a certain apartment. So, here's the thing, he didn't get the apartment, and now the managers don't want to give his money back either... LONG STORY... so... my H believes that GOD said no. So what do you guys think of that???------------------ Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss it you are among the stars!!

Sheryl,I was barely on yesterday, so Imissed alot of this and am just catching up. Not sure what the loast post meant, either.All I know is this: 2 people already posted these thing, and I agree:1) please stay with us, no matter how your own situation works out, if it is not too painful for you to do so, because you do offer sound advice and have a wonderful sense of humor that just keeps some of us going (ME!) One truism of life is that NO ONE can see themselves and their situation as well as an outsider looking in. Don't feel like you have nothing to offer, even if you and your H decide to not go on.2)You have been through an awful lot emotionally, physically and spiritually. No matter what you and your H decide about your marriage, you 2 have both got to find a way to give this "trying" a rest and be better to yourselves. I wish I knew how to tell you to do that, I don't. Just backing off and "letting live" for a little while can only do you good.I am SOOOOOOOO HAPPPPPPPY to see you here!!!!!Desiree

Sheryl,Have you read "Francis" postings yet. Please read that whole thing. I just feel there some things in her story and struggles that you and your H need to see. Just Learning

Just Learning, Yes! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

I couldn't remember where you wrote that suggestion, so couldn't go back and tell you. I didn't write back to her because she is so happy right now and I didn't want to drag her down. But yes, I took what you said and followed it!!!------------------ Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss it you are among the stars!!

Sheryl,My message was on this thread. Did you read the entire story from beginning to end? Was there something in there? I am very curious because for some reason it seemed that you and H needed to see her full story.God Bless

Dear New Beginning: I must say that I have to agree with what you wrote. I was not offended at all. If anything, I thought what you wrote was very honest and from the heart. I wish you all the luck in the world. At least you have tried in your marriage and that is one thing you can say. Your title is a good one and will be a new beginning along with the new year. I haven't been on for awhile...probably because of the same things you had said in your post. It's only a matter of time for me. I really don't know when. But, I guess I will know when that time is here. I know for now, I am not going anywhere. Good luck to you.

Thank you Katya, and I'm sorry you're having to deal with "will this last" also...icky!!Just Learning,Color me embarrassed, I just haven't gone all the way back through this thread, and so didn't realize your request was right here under my nose. Duh!! Yes, the stories are similiar... but her recovery seems much quicker. Am I wrong?? My H is so sick to death of everything that I don't think it would matter much for him to read it, if you want my honest opinion. But I will talk to him about it. My H is, right at this moment, in a doctor's appointment for something that's been bothering him for some time - could be serious! If anyone is sticking with this thread to this point (God love you) please pray for him!! ------------------ Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss it you are among the stars!!

NB, I'm here and following every step of the way, even though I'm not saying much (pretty good for me, huh?)You have my prayers. For you and for H.Luv ya,Lori

Hi NB -I'm here following also....I prayed about the apartment but not the money thing...Hmmm - wonder where that part fits in?Your and H's healh have been and will continue to be in my prayers.HUGS,Sheba

Hey girls, thanks... guess I should begin another thread, but am lazy today...H just called, went to the doctor for his problem, or rather, I should say he was suppose to go... it's potentially very serious, he's held off, then skipped the last appt. and now the doctor was out ill today, so he still hasn't found out what's wrong. He never called me, I have been worried all afternoon, had to call his job and have them track him down. He never intended on calling me. I could smack him right now. Also, had ne not been so non-committal about the apartment... well, he would have gotten his money back or be living there right now. I have a part in that too because I couldn't push him out (or kick him out, depending on how you look at it). It's the never-ending saga of us. Honest to god, I just want out. And here it is holiday time... [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

I'm just sick of it. Please don't hate me...------------------ Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss it you are among the stars!!

New_B,It was not the speed that I think may be important but the process. It turned out that there were many other problems in their life and they were getting in the way of their love for each other. The problems were addressed and the love they had came back to the surface.You and H obviously still love each other. How much stuff is it buried under?? Children, Children with special needs, jobs, baggage from youth, etc. The counceling they received individually allowed both to see things they had not appreciated.I guess the most obvious was that they were not really seeing the other person, but who they had assumed the other person had become (good and bad). Somehow, in all of these months and all of the trials, I guess I see you and H as in the same situation. You both love each other, but there is so much stuff to get through. Even the financial problems existed in their case. Oh Well, I just had a feeling that there things in there that may resonate with you two. Maybe your H will see whatever message there is in her story that is important.In any event Sheryl, hang in. Not just the marriage but personally. You and H seem like good people and I guess that is why all posting here are still rooting for you.God Bless You and Your H

My interpretation of Harley's concept of "total honesty" is different than yours. If you really believe in totally honesty, you would have, and should have, discussed your plan to engage in the EA with your spouse, who would, I'm sure, enthusiastically disagreed with it. Consequently, you would never get to the point of knowing how large (or small) the OP's body parts are. Right? So total honesty, coupled with the Policy of Joint Agreement, are really the way in which a couple stays out infidelity. I'm sorry that you and your spouse are giving up because you had to know such details. It sounds like both of you have a good foundation and perhaps you should reconsider and start thinking about the "big" picture rather than the size of body parts.

Persistant,If you take the time to read this (sorry in advance, especailly since it is at the end of a very long thread)... I will try to attempt to answer your response...I believe in honesty, and will even go so far as to say that I have been faulted my entire life for being "too honest". I did tell my H when I was "thinking" of the OM in a way that scared me. He asked me what he needed to do, and I said I didn't know. Thing is, by the time the OM was in the picture, my H and I had been drifting apart for months, if not years. I had told him two months before that I was falling out of love with him, that I wanted a <blech> soul mate and he wasn't it, that I needed to feel loved, and wasn't getting that from him. He will agree with all of this, believe me. He works too much to avoid problems in the relationship, and I nag at him to stay home, be with me.... both lovebusters in their own way.He didn't know what to do, I didn't know what to tell him to do, because by that time I was lost anyway. Does that make sense?Although, you make a VERY valid point, in theory, and if both partners agree beforethe problems ever surface, I agree wholeheartidly.------------------ Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss it you are among the stars!!