Bold Love:Chapter 1,Part 1c....Forgiving Love

Marriage Builders

Please read Nehemiah 9:15-22."Here are some key elements of the passage:
1.God's response to hunger and thirst: Provision of bread, water and possession of the land.
2. People's response to HIS kindness: Arrogant, stiff-necked, and rebellious making of other gods and a return to slavery.
3. GOD'S RESPONSE TO HATEFUL REBELLION: Forgiving, gracious, compassionate, slow to anger, and abounding in love. HE DID NOT DESERT NOR ABANDON HIS PEOPLE." Wow, how many times have I done the same darn thing? In my personal rebellion as a teenager I set up my peers and the drugs we were taking and selling as my god's. As a young adult, I set up my ex-husband and his sick lifestyle as my God. And in the past few years, lost and sick myself, not knowing where to turn, God lifted me up and said, I FORGIVE YOU in a way that I heard it and understood and could allow HIS love to heal and revive me. Praise Him for He 'did not desert nor abandon' me!"God blesses; man uses and perverts;and then God disciplines, forgives, restores, and calls us into useful service. The pattern is tragic in its repetition, but overwhelmingly wonderful in its end. God wins, as do those who bear the mark of His forgiving love" AMEN!"His long-suffering patience and forgiveness, however, are not offered without great cost to Himself. The cost is ultimately the sacrifice of His own beloved Son for the payment of sin. His forgiveness also involves a high price for the recipient. The cost is sacrifice as well, but of a wholly different order from His Son's shameful death on behalf of His brothers and sisters."I have to stop here and reflect. When I first accepted Jesus into my life as my savior, I thought heaven on earth was to follow. For years before, I had been tossed and turned on the sea of life’s events like a war-torn raggedy Ann doll. When I became saved I thought that was all gonna end. And for a very short time, in my closed mind, it did. But then, all hell broke loose, literally. Too long a story to explain what happened or how, just trust me, Satan had so many strongholds in me that God had to literally shake me and my world for a couple of years to loose the hold this world, my flesh and Satan had on me. I am still in the after shock of the shaking but can see why God did what He did. No rosy colored path to walk here, just a whole bunch of reality dumped in my lap to sort out and hand over to God. And a whole new understanding and respect for what 'sacrifice' really means. Here is such a cool paragraph....
"The cost for the recipient of God's grace is NOTHING-and no price could be higher for ARROGANT people to pay. Something within me (that feels noble) longs for a religion that requires payment. I may like an occasional free gift, but I cannot bear the loss of PRIDE and SWAGGER that occurs when I give my life and nothing is required. GRACE IS FREE, and that is disturbing. It is so distressing, in fact, that most who receive it work hard to find some way to preserve their arrogance by laborious piety. The often sincere, but arrogant, penance in many cases serves to retain their false pride and in turn to obligate God to act on their behalf."Wow, I don't know about you all, but that describes my first few years as a newborn Christian to a tea. "LOVE SEEMS TO CONSTANTLY BE DERAILED BY SIN. Every effort to do good, to some degree, seems to flounder on the shoals of SELF-CENTEREDNESS."Sometimes, I read these things and just think that the author must have crawled inside my heart and my life and is writing about me!Recently, in my efforts to understand what to do about my husbands abusive behavior, I did some pretty self-centered things all in the name of LOVE. I sought help from an unproven source, not caring how it might affect my husband. I prayed for God to change my husband before I even considered how much I may need to be changed by God’s hand myself. I scurried to try to protect my child and didn’t bother to ask my teenage son how he felt or what he wanted. I have been selfish, self-centered, rude and arrogant in handling the decaying situation within my marriage. And in it all, God watched and protected me from myself. God has provided other avenues of change and healing for both me and my husband we would never have imagined. In the past 2 weeks, our marriage has had a positive note in it that has not been present in over 10 years! We have both happily agreed to go to a wonderful marriage seminar via telecast being held at our church in a few weekends. I am amazed at how God can take the ashes of our life and create more beauty then we could ever have hoped for. And I attribute part of the success in our marital relationship to reading and studying this book along with studying the Bible as my main source of truth. I cannot express how peaceful it is now compared to the situation just a few weeks ago. God’s loving-kindness IS better then life and His forgiveness is more important then life. “The flawed lover must be restored to the path of love after love has perished on the shoals of self-centerdness. At the deepest level, the taste of forgiveness must come from the One most offended in order for life and love to be restored. In every case of sin, it is God who is most hurt and offended by our refusal to love. It is His forgiveness that is central to any movement to love after love has been trampled under the muck of hatred.”After reading this, I was struck by my own lack of real life giving penetrating love. I realized that in accepting God’s forgiveness and then not forgiving others myself, I was not at all understanding the true nature of God and His Love. “This is true if the failure of love is in the giving or in the receiving. There are many who offer great gifts of love but are rebuffed and, in turn, refuse to deal with their own hurt, anger, and refusal to love again with an open heart. Many (people) never give again after a sincere, good gift was harshly rejected or thoughtlessly ignored.”I think that I made that unconscience decision when I was very young. I gave of myself early on like a child does, trusting, wanting to give love and get it in return, but I was neglected, beaten down verbally and physically betrayed by my own parents and family while growing up. I know that I decided a long time ago that giving of myself was just a way for others to use me, so I made it a point to not give. I withheld. It hurt me more then it hurt others. “Love often succumbs to a cold death on the sharp rocks of disappointment. Love cannot last long or live out its eternal purpose in human relationships without a foundation of forgiveness-the forgiveness from God for our failure to love with a pure other-centered heart, and forgiveness when the recipient of our love spurns our gift or uses our soul in an unloving fashion. UNLESS THE FABRIC OF OUR INVOLVEMENT WITH OTHERS IS WOVEN WITH THE THREADS OF FORGIVENESS, LOVE WILL SUFFER THE CORRUPTION OF DENIAL, HARDNESS, CYNICISM, AND EVENTUALLY HATRED.”I am so glad God sent me this realization before the hatred within my soul became anymore embedded then it already was!!!!“Love is dependent on forgiveness. A formula can almost be structured from this concept. The extent to which someone truly loves will be positively correlated to the degree the person is stunned and silenced by the wonder that his huge debt has been canceled. Perhaps another way to say it is that gratitude for forgiveness is the foundation for other-centered love. ………And all efforts to love are made lovely and useful by a great Lover who superintends all our bumbling efforts and turns the dross of mixed motives to the gold of eternal intentions.”Wow, Love is dependent on forgiveness…these are no longer just words to me. I can see more clearly then ever now how much I have been forgiven. And because this mind and spirit expanding knowledge is so ever present in my heart, I can forgive my husband before he even sins. For the first time in my life his foolish speech and unwise ways, which before threw me into a fit of rage at his abusive tendencies, now just, makes me giggle. I realize just how foolish and unwise I have been and still God forgives me and loves me…..I also realize how much in control God is in my marriage, that He is providing for and protecting us both. I have come to realize that I am no different then my husband in a lot of ways. I may not get physical and hit others or break things, but I am violent none the less, in different ways. My eyes have been opened to a whole new understanding of God and His forgiving love.God Bless,
Bev

I have recently had the insight that I do NOT have enough love to mend my marriage. (I hope this fits in with your topic)I was doing a great plan A by depending on God's strength. God loved my H through me, and it felt so natural that I started to believe that I was doing the loving, and I stopped going to the source and guess what, I do not have enough love by myself.And certainly this love is going to have to come via forgiveness of my WH's A, as you quoted. But I have got to stop imagining I have the strength to do it myself.

Just recently, I heard someone compare faith to the new shaker salads that McDonalds has. The dressing is on the top and then you put the lid on and shake it down. But one or two shakings are not enough, the cup o'salad needs to be shaken quite a few times vigorously before the salad becomes saturated with the dressing. In some ways, our faith is the same way. We start by understanding with our minds and accept what faith is all about, but it takes a lot of shaking to get the faith from our head to our heart.Maybe thats what you are going through Bgentle. The shaking your marriage is taking is a way for God to get your faith of trusting in Him for ALL your needs down further into your heart so you can live out the forgiveness and love He is asking you to lean on Him for. I have learned that not any of the love I have now for my H has come from me. It has been purely by the power of the Holy Spirit that I have been able to change and see changes in my H. But I gotta tell ya, I think it was the changes I went through first that has instigated the changes I notice in my H. Praise God for that one!Have patience, and remember there is always another faction at work in this world ready to keep us from recieving the blessings God has for us. We need to pray for constant dicernment and protection from the enemy....and patience to waid it out till God's will is fulfilled in us. Your right, we don't have the strength within ourselves, but He does!God Bless,
Bev

Yes, for most of my life most of my Christian faith has been head knowledge and not heart knowledge. There is some fantastic material on getting heart knowledge in "How People Grow" which I have mentioned in another thread.Though (because of?) being somewhat neglected as a child, I had a wonderful experience of God's love for me when I was quite small and this is the heart knowledge that has stayed with me and been powerful enough to call me back when I lose my way.But through this marriage disaster, I am learning to claim more in my heart than I had before.

Hi all,Bgentle, thank you for being so responsive. It lets me know someone is reading and thinking about what I am posting here and it is not all in vain.And maybe I am being overly sensative or am slightly depressed [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] but is there a problem with this study?? Is it going to slow?? Am I talking to much about myself and not giving anyone the oppurtunity to share?? Just asking. Honestly, I am concerned because I thought that some of you were interested in going through the book with me. I believe some of you still are but are busy with other things or life has just taken a different turn for you. And thats cool. It would just be nice to know what is going on and where everyone is. Thanks and God Bless,
Bev

Dear Sister, I fully understand that you might feel like all your work in this study is not being responded to as you would like. The same thing happened in the BIM series, but I found it to be a wonderful humbling experience, the offering of a gift without expectations, like our Lord did when He hung on the cross. The information you have provided has been powerful and lends much to think and pray about, the challenge to look within and see where we need to apply the scapel to open clogged arteries that love might freely flow from ourselves. The information as you have presented it is such a mouthful that I find myself reading and rereading and praying more for wisdom and insight to how such things apply to me. It is so much easier to get rid of those people who are difficult to love and a greater challenge to not remove them from our lives and to learn to love them with an everlasting love as Christ does to us. I heard someone make a wonderful analogy the other day about Matt. 7u and the log in our own eye vs the splinter in our brother's...the speaker said to imagine your self with the log sticking out of your eye and realize that as you turn to the left, Wham! the log hits the person next to you and as you turn to the right Wham! it again hits another person, that when we have such logs we are injuring so many around us that we are so blinded to how our log is affecting others by focusing on a splinter elsewhere, that the only one who doesn't see the log in your eye is you, everyone else sees it sticking out there ugly as can be. And though you may be feeling that you are not being fed or affirmed by our lack of responses, please know that we appreciate the effort very much, but when the Lord begins to show us where we each have falied in the love category, the humbling is so overwhelming that we often just need to sit and meditate and be amazed at how blind we have been. So many times when the Lord has shown me something, I have said the "yeah, but..." in order to take the focus off myself, only to have the Lord keep the focus right where He wants it on me! Thank you for your faithfulness.SueB

May I share something else I got from the book? Not exactly chapter one (again), but..It was page 282 or thereabouts. Author was talking about Bold Love always ending in prayer. It hit me that I have had an example, teacher and daily mentor for Bold Love in my life for decades. My firstborn son.I flashed on an incident that took place about 8 years ago. He was 17 yo HS senior. He got lost in the city bus routes in Los Angeles and found himself in a very bad part of town. Not surprisingly, he got mugged. My son was a really innocent and young-looking white kid, in a tough all black neighborhood. A middle-aged dude forceably took his backpack, took his $60 he had for a train fare, and everything else that looked attractive to him.DS looked him straight in the eyes and said, "Oh, PLEASE don't DO this!" Now, you would have to know my son to hear the tone. He said it passionately, out of deep and sincere concern for the mugger's soul, not out of fear or distress at being robbed. That is his way.By the end of this encounter, the mugger had actually walked my son to the proper bus stop, gave him complete instructions on getting to his destination, gave him back his backpack and the contents, including $20 of the original $60. They ended up both in tears on their knees on the sidewalk praying for forgiveness and blessings on each other.I learned a few years ago that this child was my original guardian angel sent to teach me how to raise my children. Now I see HOW he did a good job. He was a great example of bold love all his life, and clearly from about 10 months and on. He didn't even need to be verbal to make it very clear that I was doing something wrong. None of my other wonderful four children had that capacity! He wasn't a perfect child, but he is humble, forgiving, loving and meek. Even now as a respectable 26 year old married father and hard-working diplomat in government service.Now I am trying to be that kind of model for my DH and other children. Pretty poor compared to DS, but getting better. Humility and personal repentance are the foundation. Meekness is not easy for me. Still feels forced, but practice helps.Anybody else have an example of bold love to share?

Great Story!!!And I finally got the book! but I can't seem to get the book and a networked computer in the same vicinity, but I am reading it - and it was fun to come across quotes I already knew about from the quotes here.

Hi Ladies,
I was so determined to reach the last three chapters of Bold Love that I haven't taken time to participate in the study. I made it all the way through! In all honesty, there's a lot of things in this book that I just didn't like one bit! LOL I've been very much a fool. This book exposed foolishness in ways that I never knew existed. It also exposed evil in ways that apply to my H that I never contemplated before. It's rather unnerving. He might have more shortcomings than the average joe, but I never thought of him as evil. I still feel perplexed as to how to deal with him. Separation began with a "wait and see" attitude. I see myself drifting further away from him, leaving any effort whatsoever in his court (which have been a nonevent so far). I don't know whether to try with him anymore or just drift. The chapters have blurred together for me at this point. Of all the messages in this book, there was one I find most welcome. Forgiving is totally up to me, but reconciliation hinges on repentance. Did I get that right? H treats me with callous disregard and neglect. I can forgive him for that. Until I see signs that he's willing and capable of changing that behavior, I don't see much hope for a future together. Wouldn't he need to confess his transgressions and make efforts to change for reconciliation to be feasible? If there's just one thing I improve as a result of this book, I want my rebukes to be the whisper of a friend, not the shout of an enemy. I guess that quote was in another thread. I picture my H as a tormented soul surrounded by barbed wire. I can see more clearly now that my own boundaries have a few barbs of their own. I have lots of ways to keep people at an arm's length, and that was true of me before I ever met my H. I need to soften my edges. Perhaps I never considered myself strong enough to let someone too close. Perhaps I've spent to much time being naive. As the author points out repeatedly, we live in a fallen world. That's no mystery, obviously, but I've staked too much of a claim in wanting this world and my life to be more like heaven. You'd think I'd've figured this out sooner. My bubble is burst. I've been holding onto an unrealistic expectation all this time. I've spent inordinate amounts of time wishing and praying for certain struggles to go away. Struggles will never go away, and some of the things the author describes (such as wrestling with God... now that just sounds like a BAD idea!) give me a sinking feeling in my stomach. If I have to struggle to gain wisdom, then wisdom it is. Karenna, loved your story!

HI, I just wanted to know, even though I did not have the book, bold love?, I enjoyed reading the feedback and thoughts on this thread... is this a book that can be found at a bookstore, barnes and nobles, etc. Perhaps I will look for it online now at half.com. I am interestede in joining you all in this study. I really would enjoy it... so I will look for the book.Thanks for being here, I appreciate it, Lisa

Karenna, that is one powerful example to see bold love in action! I think that is why this concept is so amazing to me, the relationships in my life have not experienced this kind of passion and I do desire to learn to love like that. Had been doing fairly well and yet, yesterday found my mind wandering about leaving this situation. And LH, trying to seek wisdom to know when to allow those in our lives to accept responsibility for themselves, which is giving them more respect or taking those steps to seek them out...such a tough and confusing delemma. I know my life would be more peaceful, I know that my old job is waitng for me, that friends would encircle me to support me, that my mountain tugs at my heart often, but I just don't think that I yet have learned this bold love thing to encourage my H to grow up and be the leader God desires for him to be....part of me thinks he will never grow up, but again perhaps that is short-changing God. I know his battle is with God and not me; I think that my motivation for my actions is pure and though I have much spiritual growing to do, I also think I am on the right track. I saw the videos on this book and I can say there was a lot of emotion in the group as we tried to understand the fine line between the different types of people...it was interesting as I had originally though my H fit the evil category, but now I think that he is just the foolish one, opening mouth and blurting without thinking and not aware of how malicious his words are. Have been listening to Moore on Life these past few days and part of his description of the Extrovert personality was very interesting as he said they are very verbal and tend to speak without thinking, that in fact, they edit thoughts as they speak. So the emotional speel that pours out all over as he throws his tantrum, rants, name calls, etc. are not even thought about, just verbalized....by the time he thinks about it, it has already been said, pride keeps apologies still...now how can you hate a foolish person? I can only feel sorry for him, and learn how to curb my own mouth like the book says...how that desire for wisdom increases. I am the simpleton, clinging to Romans 7, knowing what is right and continually doing what is wrong...if Paul had not written these words, Satan would have torn me to shreds long ago. And welcome Lisa to the group. This book is called Bold Love and is by Dan Allendar. Very powerful. And again, thanks frstrtd, for all the work you have done with this powerful chapter. I will try and participate more often in the days to come. I know we have been kinda slow, but I do believe that this is an important piece for our growth.Hugs to everyone.

There is sooooo much history between we and our spouses, that I truely wonder if the kind of Bold Love that Karenna shared in her story could ever be manifested with our spouses.I mean....my H and I are so used to each other. Time has driven us into habitual responses and we already "know" or think we know what the other person is going to say or do or think before they do it. In the case of Kareena's son, he was confronted by a stranger. Someone he had never seen before moved him to what only God can accomplish through a willing vessel. I too want to become that kind of willing vessel, but I have to work through old habits and thoughts and ways of doing things that have been a part of me and my H for years. I would probrably be able to make much more headway with a stranger or someone I barely know then with my husband....and that is proving to be the case. Even now as I am learning how to approach my H's abusive behavior with bold confronting love, I find my new approach with my H being misconscrewed by my H as the old approach only dressed up in new clothing. In other words, my H really isn't hearing my words nor seeing my actions for what they are now, instead he is still focused on what has always been a pattern of the past. He still hears and sees only that which he wants. This is all such hard work that at times giving up has been the only option I seem to have.I know I am not alone in this. Reading these posts helps me understand how much we need each other to lean on and talk to. I am in much need right now. Ever since I discovered just how destructive my marital relationship had become, I have drifted from the saftey of the arms of God. I don't know why, but my relationship with the Lord has suffered tremendously at the very time I need Him the most. Why? I have asked myself that a hundred times and really have no clear idea. Except that I am so angry and frustrated with God because I am in a relationship with a man who cannot even begin to understand how destructive he really is and I hear God saying, 'stay there Bev'....stay in the marriage and I will help you. Yet, I don't see His hand helping as much as hurting. It hurts to want to have your marriage change so much to make things right when only one out of the two in the marriage really wants to change. My H has no idea how much he hurts me everyday. But God does and God says stay. I find it hard to feel safe with my H or with my God anymore.....the lonliness is devastating.

I have been trying to put up a new chapter study on Mondays, but have not been feeling well this past week. I even took a sick day and am home from work today because I feel lousy. Whether it is the emotional making me feel physically weak or the physicall making me feel emotionally weak is anyones call right now. I just know that I feel rather ycchy, throat kinda soar, body achy, all over blues kinda bad. Have for a few days now. Maybe for a week or so actually. Yea, I am going through the pre-manapause syndrome too...nothing drastic, but hormonal changes non the less. Anyway, if I feel better today, I will post a new study, but if not, hope to get to it soon. Sorry for the delay............God Bless

Sorry to hear you're under the weather frstrtd. It'll give you some time to think. Looks like I'll have a bit more time to think about things myself. I got notice today that my parttime position is being eliminated. I too was very distrustful of some changes I saw in my H over the last year. In counselling I had asked for affection (at that time he would literally recoil when I touched him). He gave me a hug daily from that point forward. Several months in fact. I couldn't ever shake my own uncertainty. What I REALLY want are gifts from his heart, and I felt like I was receiving something that is somehow contrived or forcibly extracted from him. In one sense, I feel like I could have given it more time. OTOH, I felt like I was seeing the upper limit of his capabilities, and it wasn't enough. He is absent emotionally and I don't have any realistic expectation that he'll ever be anything but absent. Next week marks three months of separation, and to date his efforts toward reconciliation are ZERO. With a stranger, we start with a clean slate. It is certainly more difficult to practice bold love with a man who has hurt me so deeply, a man who refuses to acknowledge how he's hurt me, let alone repent from doing any further harm. Whether I change or he changes, we will both view the other with suspicion that this new behavior is merely a mask on what we had before. I don't know how long the new behavior needs to last for it to be "the real thing." It the same sort of challenge people in MB face all the time with Plan A. The "nice spouse" is viewed with suspicion as the behavior is unfamiliar. One little backslide and you've undone months of good behavior. Excuse me while I go stomp me feet and complain about how unfair and difficult this is!!! Before I go, I'm curious, frstrtd. How do you know God is telling you to stay? I feel like I've been playing a guessing game for two years now and I still don't know the rules and most of what I hear from above is silence.

You know, lonesome heart, that you even asked 'how do I know that God is telling me to stay' is by no coincidence. I go to counsling every few weeks with a wonderful women who so completly validates me and what I am feeling. Today she helped me to validate how I know I should stay. She said that with all the abuse I have been through in my life, I have never once before allowed myself to really feel the pain of it all. I was hooked on drugs by age 15 and have had one addiction or another since then. I was also diagnosed as bipolar and have been hospitalized for emotional problems 3 times in my life. I have always used some addiction, emotional tool or spiritual mechanism to escape the reality of just plain feeling the pain of life, whether it be addictions or emotional breakdowns or whatever, I have always 'run away'. But for the first time in my life, and I am 47 yrs old, I am facing the pain now that I have could not face for years. All wrapped up in a nice little bundle in my marriage. A lot of symbolic stuff yes, but a lot of present pain as well as pain of the past none the less. I know God is telling me to stay because He doesn't want me to run away this time. It hurts tremendously yes, but God wants me to face the pain and hurt that is keeping me from being the child of God He knows I am inside. I need to go through this now. And I need to struggle and grow through this now too. I need to stay in this place now so God can grow me up even in a somewhat painful circumstance, then I know God will be faithful to change my circumstance. I don't know how, but I do trust in Him and His promises to bless me if I KEEP the commitments I have made to Him. And staying with my husband is a part of that for now. It may change one day, I don't know, only God knows...but for now, I know God is telling me to stay.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by frstrtd:
There is sooooo much history between we and our spouses, that I truely wonder if the kind of Bold Love that Karenna shared in her story could ever be manifested with our spouses.<hr></blockquote>"History" and habit is the one thing I have absolute confidence in the power of God and repentance to break. Why? Because it is entirely within MY OWN power to break my habits. I mean....my H and I are so used to each other. Time has driven us into habitual responses and we already "know" or think we know what the other person is going to say or do or think before they do it. Have you read Michele Wiener Davis? Her main deal in all her books is about breaking your own habitual responses to situations. Change from what obviously hasn't worked to something different. The different behavior may not have the precisely desired effect, but at least it won't be the same ol' same ol' ineffectual stuff!In the case of Kareena's son, he was confronted by a stranger. Only after 17 years of using Bold Love on those foolish parents of his, the fools in school, and everyone else who offended. I actually think he was born knowing all this. I am going to continue to watch his ministries with great interest and anticipation!Someone he had never seen before moved him to what only God can accomplish through a willing vessel. Whatever was accomplished is between that mugger and God. We will never know.I too want to become that kind of willing vessel, but I have to work through old habits and thoughts and ways of doing things that have been a part of me and my H for years.No you don't. You don't have to break the old habit before you experiment with a different behavior. Just try it once. If you don't like it you can always go back to the same ol' that didn't work before.I would probrably be able to make much more headway with a stranger or someone I barely know then with my husband....and that is proving to be the case."Headway" is an illusion. Strangers don't count because you can't see the ultimate result. But practicing a response on a friend is a great idea. Role play in advance, either with a friend, or even in a Stranger situation. Even if you don't do the "correct" response in the crunch, you will be able to hesitate from giving the old response just long enough to remember to do a 180 degree turnabout and change the game.But strangers are far more terrifying to most of us than familiar faces. Especially when doing something as high risk as inviting them to repentance!Even now as I am learning how to approach my H's abusive behavior with bold confronting love, I find my new approach with my H being misconscrewed by my H as the old approach only dressed up in new clothing. In other words, my H really isn't hearing my words nor seeing my actions for what they are now, instead he is still focused on what has always been a pattern of the past. He still hears and sees only that which he wants. This is all such hard work that at times giving up has been the only option I seem to have.Do a 180. Quit playing H's game. Take your marbles and roll them in a different frame. If Bold Love hasn't given you a new idea to experiment with, then post a specific example of a destuctive rote dance here and see if the board participants have some new ideas.Ever since I discovered just how destructive my marital relationship had become, I have drifted from the saftey of the arms of God. I don't know why, but my relationship with the Lord has suffered tremendously at the very time I need Him the most. Why? I have asked myself that a hundred times and really have no clear idea. Except that I am so angry and frustrated with God because I am in a relationship with a man who cannot even begin to understand how destructive he really is and I hear God saying, 'stay there Bev'....stay in the marriage and I will help you. Yet, I don't see His hand helping as much as hurting. It hurts to want to have your marriage change so much to make things right when only one out of the two in the marriage really wants to change. My H has no idea how much he hurts me everyday. But God does and God says stay. I find it hard to feel safe with my H or with my God anymore.....the lonliness is devastating.Maybe God really is asking you to make some other changes in yourself?When you are really in touch with your own depravity, then you are in a position to have compassion for your H's evil tendencies. Is there someone in your life who taught you that you also are capable of being abusive? Or selfish? Or petty? Or whatever? This has to start with Repentance. When we have confessed all our own sins and faults the best you can, then we can get divine help with confronting wrong actions against us.

Guess I am a bit off base. Should have looked for your newest reply before I hit the button!We will pray for you frstrtd! We used to do a regular Tuesday evening prayer night here.Dear Father,We thank you for this forum, for these sisters with whom we can share our joys, fears, pain and grief. We praise thee for the miracles you have performed in our lives already, and for the miracle of this life and opportunity to grow. Please be with frstrtd in her struggles with life, in her marriage, and in her desires to serve thee. We thank thee for the many sisters here who struggle together in faith and love, trying to support each other. Be with all of those who hurt tonight.Help frstrtd to know that our thoughts and prayers are with her. Let her feel thy Spirit comforting her in her pain and loneliness.We thank thee for the wisdom and truth we are finding in the book, "Bold Love." Help us to see clearly the love, repentance, compassion and humility we need to have in order to truly love our fellow beings. Bless frstrtd in her leadership with our new book study. Let it be a wonderful blessing in her life. Bless us all that we might more effectively praise thee and give glory to thee and thy Son. Help us to be more like Him every day.In Jesus' name, Amen

That was a beautiful prayer Karenna.
<blockquote>quote:<hr>If Bold Love hasn't given you a new idea to experiment with, then post a specific example of a destuctive rote dance here and see if the board participants have some new ideas.<hr></blockquote>I'm jumping on this one before frstrtd has a chance! Last Saturday I edged the sidewalk for the first time. I don't know how you're supposed to tell where the edge is when you can't see it! Sparks were flyin there for a while and the sidewalk has a few gouges. I erred on the side of caution after that, and let's just say there's a bit more of the lawn missing than needs to be. Still, it looks better than it did. It's material for a long standing pattern. I feel like it's a triple whammy lose/lose/lose situation. When we went to counselling last year, I discovered that any request, big or small, is viewed as a form of control by him. As an example, he sited how I would ask him to get me a napkin at dinnertime. (I'm thinking, well, that's infrequent, and happens only when I'm seated and he's still standing.) I really don't want to be a controlling person. Given his low threshhold for what counts as "control", I don't feel like I'm "allowed" to make any requests. If I wait for him to offer his superior edging skills, I'd have grass to my rooftop and a fine from the city. By taking the initiative to edge the sidewalk myself, I'm subject to ridicule. These days, the lines of communication are practically zilch, but should he take a jab at the way I edged the sidewalk, what would be some responses consistent with bold love?

I will add another situation of my own which just recently occurred.My husband 'controls' all the finances when it comes to paying bills, having credit cards and using them and basically makes major decisions about our finances without consulting me. Unbeknowst to me, he has been trying to refinance our 2 mortgages into one, until I asked him what was up. He answered that what he is trying to do has nothing to do with me....that is until I need to sign the papers. Instead of getting angry, I asked more questions about the whole process and he became defensive with me saying that all I want to do is control everything by wanting to know. Now, that was not the case at all...I just wanted to know what he was planning on doing and how it would work. He got angry and verbally abused me once again. I quietly yet firmly told him that as a vested partner in our houshold affairs and the moneys we have, I have a right to know what his plans are. He became angry and could no longer talk rationally about the matter, so I said we need to talk about it when he was more reasonable. After a couple more abusive remarks on his part about how I would never understand, implying stupidity, I excused myself and told him once again, we needed to talk when he could be more rational. Well, that time never came for him. Then, just a few days ago we recieved a sizable income tax return which he had been saying for weeks would pay off our jeep. Both my son and myself were told this several times. The money came and a week later I asked if he sent in the check for the jeep yet. He became very defensive and said that there were other things he needed to take care of. Nothing new had come up, but he just changed his mind about what to do with the large sum. And then he went into a tirade about how I need to be flexable and that sometimes things change. I never accused him of anything, I just wanted to know why the jeep hadn't gotten paid off and reminded him that he was the one who made the plan to do this and had told us for weeks that it would be done and now that it wasn't, why hadn't he discussed with me the changes that he had made with the money. He flew into a mini-rage accusing me of wanting to controll everything again and I unfortunatly started to yell back at him. I was furious that he was so angry over my marriage-partner rights to be included in major decisions like this. My anger spilled out with harsh words which now I wish I could take back....but it is done. Though, I didn't let it lie there, I called him when I got to work and said that it is obvious we cannot discuss these things in the morning and that I would be home that night as to would he and that we need to go over what he did with the money. He said OK. That night I didn't ask for him to show me anything, I waited for him to voluntarily show me....and he did. Now this situation with control over money is an ongoing one. After reading what happened above, does anyone have any suggestions as to how I could have better handled the problems I encounter with in this area? This whole incident has shown me a few things...I thing my H is threatened by me somehow. He is very controlling in money, sex and verbally he needs to be 'one up' all the time. I feel like I am in a competition with him over just about anything. He needs to be better then, more then, smarter then, always with the 'oneupmanship'. If I am sick he has been sicker, if I am depressed, he has been even more depressed. And so on. It's like living with a 9 year old little boy mentality who goes around saying.... 'na na na' anything you can do I can do better'. Drives me up a wall at times!Got any ideas on how to help me cope with this and change my way of doing things so as to demonstrate Bold Love? I'd be more then happy to know them.[ April 17, 2002: Message edited by: frstrtd ]

And Karenna, thank you for the beautiful heart felt prayer. I am touched by your willingness to serve God and pray for me and others here. Where 2 or more are gathered in my Name, there I am in the midst of them Jesus said, and I really believe this includes when we meet here on this board. So Thank You Karenna for inspiring me to do the same.Dear God, how wonderful Your Love is for all of us. Even admidst the painful times in life, you find ways to show us just how much You care and are there for us. I am grateful for the friends I have here who call out to You in prayer and in praise and give me the courage to do the same. God, Help each one of us to learn more about what this real Jesus lived and breathed Bold Love is. Unbind us, unblind us and free us from the bondage of sin and the past. Let us go on from here to learn new and fresh ways to boldly love our spouses in a way that may help release them from their own sin patterns and lack of hope as well as release us and teach us new ways to cope and handle what confronts us with Godly courage. Thank You Lord for giving us first the gift of perfect love.God Bless,
Bev

That was a wonderful example Frstd, one that could have been written from my home, except I am the bill payer and H is the money spender and debt-free so far is not in his vocabulary. Your quiet alternative responses are exactly what Dan Allendar is talking about, quietly speaking the truth and walking away when necessary. That you blew it and was sucked into responding similarly was a human thing and as Paul says in Romans, Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! Our desire is to not live by the sinful nature but to learn and develop the Spirit controlled mind so that we will be able to put away the misdeeds of the sinful nature. Praise God for the part you got right, confess and repent of the part you have not gained control over and keep up the good work! I had counsel this week with a godly woman who put temporary separation for the purpose of reconcilliation into a much different perspective for me. My H has multiple issues that is he refuses to deal with, instead he chooses to blame me for all his problems in the world. As long as I am around he makes me the target, with the attack, jazz and perhaps I need to temporarily remove myself so that I am not the target and to further allow God to deal with him. H has said that if I ever left, he would divorce me, end of discussion, which is not biblical...do I remain as the target just to keep him from sinning in this area when he is sinning in so many other areas by the abuse, etc. I guess I am seeing that I need to act by faith, to take the steps to protect myself and if my H does indeed to follow with such a thing, then the spiritual issue is between him and the Lord. I feel like I am getting in the way of the Lord...My H has so many good qualities when he is not being a jerk. I need to continue to learn that soft voice whispered answers or even no answers at all when he is in the unreasonable mode. Though I don't write as often as I used to, I am thankful for you ladies and for this part of the forum. I do not go into any of the other part.Tonight we are going, at my H's suggestion, to a satellite televised conference on marriage. Pray that God will soften both our hearts and that we will hear what He has for us to hear, that condemnation will not enter in and that grace will guard our conversation.Thanks!

Hey SueB,
I bet ya my hubby and I will be viewing the same televised confrence at our church tonight. And it is being held tommorow too(Saturday). We can pray for each other.I am very sick right now. A virus the doc says. Low grade fever, stuffed up/runny nose, sneezing, dizzy, etc, etc. I have only worked 10 hrs this week and have been home the rest of the time sleeping and vegy-ing out. I'll be darned if I am gonna let my flesh, this world or Satan keep me from that conference! I am really not holding out a lot of hope for my hubby to change much because of it, but I hope to learn a lot so that I might be able to gain a better perspective as well as put some very valuable info into practice. Thank you all for hanging in here with me. I appreciate every word, jot and tittle posted here and am blessed each time I read. 
God Bless,
Bev

That Tony Evans is pretty awesome! Thought James Dobson is getting old and should have planned his talk better. H doesn't like Dobson and this didn't help any. I look forward to tomorrow...Continue to pray, I am praying for you Bev.

I love Tony Evans! He's on my local station at 7:00 pm M-F. He had a great series on marriage recently. One session talked about the H's biblical responsibility... H's are instructed to love their wives. I was driving & couldn't take notes, but I think the passage is in Corinthians.frstrtd, I'm getting frustrated just trying to think of suggestions for you! Seems to me that your H is the one who's controlling if he expects you to sign mortgage papers that you don't understand. I think I would tell him that I will not sign any legal documents that I don't understand. If he's uncomfortable explaining it, then I'll find my answers elsewhere, but under no circumstances will I be bullied into signing something I don't understand. He can explain or not explain, the choice is up to him. I don't have any experience of my own to rely on. My H was "hands off" in the financial department, which was sort of ok in the beginning. It wasn't until financial difficulties set in (due primarily to his lack of financial contributions to the household) that our downward spiral accelerated. All the responsibilities were falling on me, and to my dismay, so was all the blame for the mess we were in. To have a spouse show interest in the financial health of the household... wow, what a concept! It's one of many things absent in my marriage. I don't know how I turned into his enemy, but I sure got treated like one. btw, my station has "money matters" with Larry Burkette (sp?) from 2:30 to 3:00. frstrtd, if these papers involve loading more debt onto your home, this may be an opportunity to offer a rebuke, Allender style. Funding for internet access is on again off again, but you can listen at www.kbnj.org The formula suggested on money matters is to look at money left after taxes and after tithe. No more than 40% of what's left should go to your housing (that 40% should cover mortgage, utilities, taxes, ... and maybe maintenance and insurance too).

Yea, Tony Evans was the highlight of the whole event, I agree! My H enjoyed the talk by Josh McDowell with the whole love yourself bit. But I don't think Josh took the full concept far enough. What if a person loves themselves with distortion, perversion or dysfunction and then carries that over into their close relationships with others?? No, he didn't take it far enough for me. Left a lot out. One person's concept of nurturing and cherishing may be another persons nightmare...look at "stalkers". I know thats an extreme, but you get the picture. No, it wasn't complete enough for me. I am still very sick , but I sat through it anyway. And I have mixed feelings walking away from it. Partly because I wasn't real impressed with all the material and partly because of what transpired toward the end with my H and I. He told me that the one thing that he lacks from me is forgiveness about the physical abuse he perpetrated upon me over a year ago. He said that he lives in fear that I may call the cops on him at any time now because of his past violent attack on me and it is eating him up inside. I sat there listening knowing that he was fishing for a way out of his own shame and guilt. But I didn't give him the chance. He wants forgiveness without saying he is truely sorry, without saying he was clearly wrong and without showing true repentance. I told him that forgiveness can only come complete from me when he can understand how he has not only been physically abusive but is NOW verbally abusive as well and needs to be aware of it, take responsibility for and sorry for all of his this behavior as well as repentant before I can truely forgive him. Almost immediatly, he tried to turn the tables on me and say that yes, verbal abuse is a problem and that I verbally abuse him. Well, I instantly told him to not change the subject and that the issue was about his abuse problems and what he needs to face about himself and that talking about me was not the issue. And I told him that when he is truely repentant of it all and truely seeks my forgiveness God's way that then I can forgive him. Then before he had a chance to counter, I politly excused myself and went to get some tea. I am still shaking ladies. Any words of enlightenment or encouragement at this time would be greatly appreciated!

I did appreciate Josh McDowell a lot and I think my H couldn't possibly have taken it much stronger than that. Josh echoed what I had shared the other day and while I would have loved to have given my H the rasberry, I know that God would not have been pleased, especially since I have been praying for intervention...I know you are hurting sister, but I also hear bitterness and anger mixed in with the hurt which can keep you from reaping the benefits of the event. My H almost choked when the men were instructed to turn to wives and apologize, etc. He had a hard time looking me in the eye. He insisted on buying some of the videos though so who knows how God will work it out. I see more and more how God wants me to learn softness...more a soft boldness...pretty amazing to me. What personality did you come out? I was a Captain/Steward, only 1 point apart. My H was a navigator and then tied for 2nd between captain and social director... when you think of the comedian's comment that the social director was the anti-christ of the navigator, it hit me once again how torn my H must be. I did understand more about his need for lists...think I will pray on that and see how to best address that.Hugs

We bought the 8 pack of books that were on special. The price was right and we love to read. My H particularly likes the subject about love and food and he has agreed to participate in a small group if we can find one or get one going. That is a big step for both of us. I am a navigator/captain and my H is a captain/navigator. An interesting combo. I have tendencies to be the steward and my H has the social director patterns. We both enjoyed that segment of the seminar. The issue about forgiveness has had me thinking all night. I believe forgiving love is an action not a just a 'thing'. We need to forgive initially for something someone may have done to hurt us so as to not let resentment and bitterness build up and to let the other person know we care about them....but the act of forgiving my H is going to take a lot more time then just the time it takes to say the words "I forgive you". For many years my H has been abusing me emotionally, verbally and physically (throwing things, holes in walls, threats, choke holds, pushes, etc)...just my saying the 3 words "I forgive you" at a time when true repentance and sorrow on my H's part are what is needed to access longlasting and deep forgiveness would only let the destructive cycle continue. God forgives us because Jesus has taken our place and died for our sins...but that forgiveness is only known by us when we truly believe in God, in Jesus and in the Holy Spirit and understand that Jesus died in our place. We need to take a step to get a hold of that forgiveness to make it ours. It is by our sheer action of belief and the further action of following that belief that gives us eternal salvation. We need to act to receive. My H wants to receive from me without taking proper action. I do forgive him for the initial damage he has caused me physically (and he has stopped being so physically violent for about 6 months now) but not for the continuing verbal and emotional battering that he throws my way. He needs to show some real changes before I can completely forgive and trust him again. I am not a monster. I make love to him, I cook dinner and clean the house and do the laundry. I kiss him and hug him. I work hard and give my share of pay toward bills. I laugh and cry with him and I am as loving and caring as a wife can be in my situation, but I also have been stern and clear about where I stand when it comes to his abusive behavior. I am, with as much sensitivity and as lovingly yet as boldly as possible, letting him know that I will no longer tolerate the abusive way he treats my son or myself verbally or emotionally. I will no longer be a victim. I am learning to understand the difference between victimization and sacrifice. A victim has no choice in her circumstances, a sacrificial person choices her circumstances. Jesus chose His circumstances when He sacrificed himself on the cross. I am choosing to stay in the marriage so as to be an example of sacrifice for my H, not to be a victim.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>MT 6:14 For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. [15] But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.<hr></blockquote>This one keeps coming back at me which is why I said aything to you. Trust and forgiveness are two different things. You can by the act of the will, forgive someone but still be cautious and not trust. In fact it is using wisdom to be discerning in those situations. In our group bible study last night we were talking about just this thing, the tendency by many to believe that suffering for Christ is the same as accpeting abusive behavior, etc and I agree totally that God does not want us to suffer in this manner and we do well to set boundaries and clear concise limits. We do though have to remember the grace given to us when we least deserve it... I think of Lizzie and her latest report (Alias) of how she verbalized forgiveness to her previously unfaithful spouse and how that grace just flabbergasted him and how blessed they both were by it. God brings me to tears frequently when I talk to him about all that goes on here and how I am ready to fly the coop and how He reminds me of His steadfastness and His everlasting love even in the midst of darkness.We bought the videos for the food love connection Too bad we weren't closer, we could go through them together. Praying for you.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>"Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him, and IF HE REPENTS FORGIVE HIM." Luke 17:3+4 <hr></blockquote>Jesus himself said that if a person repents, then we forgive them. Somehow, we as Christians seem to have gotten the idea that no matter what the offense, we need to forgive immediately because that is what God commands. But look at the fine print, Jesus defines the way to forgive above. First He says we are to rebuke the sinning brother or sister. That means we are to point out to them, hopefully in love, what they did, how it hurt and why it was a sin. Jesus took into account that the person who sinned needs to be held accountable for what they have done or how would they learn and grow? And the person they sinned against needs to be able to know that the offender is sorry. How can a person be truly forgiven unless they understand what they have done, why it was a sin, are sorry for it and then turn from it? There is a whole lot more to forgiveness then just a kind word or two. 
I have pointed out to my husband many times, as have others, what his sin is. My husband has shown no true repentance about what he has done physically to me. He said himself that he wants me to forgive him because he is AFRAID that I will call the cops on him again if he ever gets physical or violent-such as throwing things, etc. He has even gone so far as to justify his violent actions by saying I made him do it and it really wasn't that bad and so on. Just a few weeks ago, we witnessed a violent attack of a man on his girlfriend in which I called the cops, and he told a friend" Well we don't know the whole story and she probably provoked him into it anyway". No remorse, no regret, no true repentance. And I live with this man. He has a violent temper and can get so mad that even strangers around him can see that he is raging and want to get out of his path. He has not truly repented of his behavior and goes so far as to justify it as he continues it. Yes, his violent tendencies have subsided a bit for now, but how long will that last without true repentance?I am learning how to not be bitter or resentful as I do as Jesus commands. The key is in understanding. I now understand and even have compassion for my H. I love him anyway, but I do not trust him nor do I allow his rage to interrupt my emotional/spiritual growth. I am learning how to set boundaries and be firm, yet kind. But I cannot forgive until he truly wants forgiveness. I really do not believe that he wants real forgiveness. I believe he just wants to not feel so guilty or afraid, so he thinks that if I say I forgive him, then that will take away his shame. But he hasn't done what Jesus defines in Luke 17:3+4, so how can I truely forgive him? Not just mouth the words, but truely forgive him?

The topic yesterday on Oprah was forgiveness. The stories were amazing and had me in tears. There must be something here I'm not getting. For one thing, I thought I had grieved my marriage and reached the stage of acceptance. I thought I had forgiven my H for the callous disregard and neglect he has shown me over the years. This Friday marks three months of separation. To date his effort toward reconciliation is zero. I try very hard to expect nothing from him. Well, don't ya know, I'm feeling very hurt by his complete lack of effort to salvage our marraige. My feelings of inadequacy are running rampant. The timing coincides with the loss of my parttime job last week. My plate is overflowing with work (self employment) I have difficulty getting done, but still the loss of income hurts, even if my schedule is more manageable. At first I thought the job loss would be a blessing in disguise, that God is making room in my life for something even better. Instead, things just seem more difficult. I can't make any sense out of my sudden feelings of anger. My feelings of inadequacy were extreme at the time of separation, and I was making progress I thought. I feel like I've taken a huge mudslide backwards. Has anyone else gone through something like this?

I guess I wasn't finished. The people on Oprah had forgiven terrible offenses they had suffered at the hands of others. In most cases, the offenders were unrepentent. Is forgiveness supposed to hinge on repentance? I thought Bold Love said to forgive regardless of the offender's status... that it is reconciliation that hinges on repentance.

You know I have been thinking about and praying about my stance on this forgiveness issue, and maybe I am not using the right words to describe what I am going through. Maybe I really have initially forgiven my H for his past, present and future abuses, because I love him so much and want only to do what is right by him. But the only feeble initial human forgiveness I can give is so far removed from the perfect forgiveness that only God Himself can give him that I have not seen it as forgiveness at all. Maybe God is showing me that I need to be wisely safe and graciously patient and as forgiving as I can with him through the offenses so as to live out the only kind of forgiveness I can for my H. I used to forgive so immediately before as if just saying the words was enough to take all the pain away, but I think God is revealing to me a different kind of forgiveness. Maybe that is why I have not been calling it forgiveness, but I am beginning to think that it is. It is just a more mature kind that is being lived out as I remain in the marriage.As for your dilemma Lonesome Heart, I feel for you. It must be so hard to let go. I just think about it and am in tears. I pray that Gods comfort is surrounding you through this trial. As for the anger that has come back, that is only natural for someone in your circumstances. It has only been 3 months, it takes time.God knows we can only handle so much at a time...so like a gentle flower, He is only allowing one pedal at a time to unfold. And as each beautiful pedal unfolds to add to the sweet aroma and perfect color of your uniqueness, there is for a short time a bit of discomfort that comes with that unfolding. This too will pass and before you know it, you will be in full bloom! I went through some very heart rending, emotional breakdown experiences that put me in a mental ward for 16 days just 2 years ago. Then I had a very horrible depression for 14 months afterward. I thought I was gonna die....but God brought me through it with comfort and healing. He will do the same for you my dear Sister.God Bless,
Bev[ April 23, 2002: Message edited by: frstrtd ]

Forgiveness comes in many flavors. Each has its own validity. There are probably several more varieties of forgiveness. 1. You hurt me. I don't know if you meant to.You did not say a word when I brought it up.To give you the benefit of the doubt, I forgive you and will go on almost as if nothing ever happened, but with eyes wide open.2. You hurt me. You even admit that you intended to cause me pain. You have apparantly repented and asked me for forgiveness.I forgive you, and will go on almost as if nothing ever happened, but with eyes wide open.3. You hurt me.You won't admit it, I believe it was intentional, you have made no move to apologize, repent or anything.I understand that you did it from your weaknesses.I forgive you, but will protect myself from future repetitions of the hurtful behavior. I will not gossip or punish you, but won't be as vulnerable to you either. I will not burn my insides by holding a grudge about it either.

4. You hurt someone I care about.I will forgive you for the hurt that spilled over to me only if
a. you repent and make full restitution to the hurt person, and
b. apologize to me for the incidental damage I suffered. I cannot forgive on behalf of the hurt person.I will see to it that earthly justice is carried out in legal ways insofar as I am able to.I will then let it go. Or as some would say, "forgive" you, in that I will not carry a grudge, because "Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord."

Hi Ladies,Please pray for me. I am going away this week-end to a monastery for time alone with God. As many of you are, I am trying to choose righteous living in an environment of hostility and little love. Too often I have not responded righteously. There is so much hurt and resentment built up in this marriage. I feel so grieved as I look at the condition of our marriage. The Lord is bringing me to repentance for my own behavior and softening my heart. Still, as Karenna mentioned above - I sense I need to protect myself from my husband's selfishness and dishonesty. I need discernment in how to do that in a godly way. This week in my Bible study we learned that endurance (as in "run with endurance the race set before you...") can mean "remaining in the situation in a godly way - without resistance (to God)". It means to abide under, bear up courageously, to sustain a load of misery for a long time."Let us also lay aside every encumbrance, and the sin which so easily entagles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, FIXING our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him, endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. For consider Him who has endured such hostility by sinners against Himself, so that you may not grow weary and lose heart." Hebrews 12: 1-3Please pray for my endurance - so I may choose righteous and holy living.Bless you all. You are an encouragement to me as I see you all - as a cloud of witnesses - also choosing to lay aside sin and not turn from God.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by siftedlikewheat:
This week in my Bible study we learned that endurance (as in "run with endurance the race set before you...") can mean "remaining in the situation in a godly way - without resistance (to God)". It means to abide under, bear up courageously, to sustain a load of misery for a long time.<hr></blockquote>Yukko! Where does it say that? Any chance that passage is being taken out of context? Second opinion please! (if wishful thinking is a sin, I'll may never get to heaven!)I wish you all the best for this weekend SLW. While you're in the monastery, my H could use a few prayers for a softer heart. Today has been a tumultuous day. An overdraft notice came on Tuesday. It's a joint account that I don't write checks on anymore. Yet, somehow, H was convinced the overdraft was my fault. When I talked to him on Tuesday about it, he wanted me to call the bank. I said the activity on the account is yours. I think you should call the bank. Today he was hot under the collar because I hadn't called the bank. Venom was spewing through that phone line! He accused me of being money hungry, of being sneaky, of intending to screw him out of his equity in our home. I told him he doesn't know me very well if he thinks that. As for being sneaky, I repeated what I've told him before... I share details of my life with people who show interest. I suggested (well, I was yelling at that point) that he consult with me if he wants to know what I think, what I feel, what my plans are. Without talking to me first, any conclusions he draws are a silent guessing game he plays, and his guesses are all wrong. In the three months we've been separated, he hasn't shown any interest in me or my welfare. Then he started in on a laundry list of all his problems. I responded by saying, why should I care about you, when you show no interest in me? Then he threatened to have me thrown in federal prison. According to him, I stole his gun. I removed the gun from our home last year as part of my safety plan. The gun is in safekeeping (he claims it's ruined once it's placed in a firesafe). I prepared a statement that he could gain access to his gun after a professionally trained veteran center counsellor assured me that he is not a danger to himself or others. All he sees is his constitutional right to bear arms being violated. In response to his threat, I told him go ahead. I'd be more than happy to have a public record stating my reasons for taking that action. At the time, I was more concerned about him harming himself than I was my own safety, although I knew better than to rule out the potential for him being violent. If he wants that a matter of public record, FINE! He told me we're getting a divorce, that there's no way he would ever be interested in getting back together with me. I told him that's the best news I've had all day. In the meanest, nastiest voice I've heard from him, he said "I hate you I hate you I hate you" and hung up. Things have calmed down in the meantime. I was quaking in my boots there for a while, and I tried to remember Allender's instructions on how to rebuke with strength and kindness. How'd I do?

LH-Confronting a la Allender has to be from a position of love and compassion. No selfishness can be involved. Attitude and motivation is everything. The written text doesn't convey your tone, smile, warmth or charity. Normally it doesn't include yelling, although an increase in volume doesn't necessarily preclude its validity either.How do you think you did? Grade yourself line by line when you have enough distance from the event to evaluate it.

Lonesome Heart,
In answer to your question, about "endurance (as in "run with endurance the race set before you...") can mean "remaining in the situation in a godly way - without resistance (to God)". It means to abide under, bear up courageously, to sustain a load of misery for a long time." 
I believe that the ‘race’ (Heb 12:1) Paul is talking about here takes into account the physical situations we find ourselves in, but more importantly and most overlooked, Paul is referring to the spiritual situations we become involved with. There is so much going on that we do not see. The spiritual battle needs to be 'endured' and fought on different terms then the physical skirmishes we encounter. And we need the more powerful tool of prayer to 'run the race' with the kind of effectiveness that God promises we can have. For one person this may mean going to a monastery to pray for a long period of time and to be alone with God to decide the best thing to do. For another it means using prayer and the knowledge and the wisdom that God has prepared in the book Bold Love, and telling your spouse the hard things that they don't want to hear. It is unique and different for each one of our circumstances. First, look carefully at the above quote and you will see that it says..."CAN MEAN remaining in the situation in a godly way - without resistance (to God).” Each one of us must access our situation and see if we are to remain or not. That is why prayer is sooooo important. "Be still and know that I am God" is not just a command to stand and be in awe of His greatness. It means to be still, in our minds, in our hearts and be ready to LISTEN to what God is telling us to do and then HEAR it with clarity. How often have we prayed for help, only to be so blind by our own impatience and desires, that we miss the help God is sending us? Because we are too busy trying to fix things ourselves. Be still and wait for the help God is going to give. Sometimes the answer to our prayers is immediate or just plain NO, but most of the time the answer to our prayers is WAIT. We need to excersize the power of the mightiest tool God has given us too not only endure, but to fight the spiritual battles that ensnare us. And only half of the prayer tool is being used if we JUST pray. The other half of the prayer tool is up to God to wield. It is His grace, His mercy, and His answer, His ways that we wait for to complete how the prayer tool is used. And if we are not 'still' enough long enough to hear Him, we may never know what kind of power He can wield in our lives. We will go off and do our own thing and never realize the full potential of being still and KNOWING God is God.SLW, you are courageous to try to "choose righteous living in an environment of hostility and little love". We are all built with different endurance levels. That you are going away to a quiet place to seek God's ways can be more uncertain and disquieting then just throwing in the towel and calling the marriage quits or leaving it alone the way it is.And Lonesome Heart, talking to your husband in truth, in love and with firmness is not an easy task at all. It can be a whole lot more stressful and disconcerting then remaining in the abusive situation with a person as rebellious as you have described your husband to be. We each have a separate path to walk. But if we choose to walk it with Jesus as our Lord and Savior and God as our Abba Father, as long as we are open to hear God speak in our hearts, we will each walk it as children of the Light, but we will each have to walk it differently then the other. God built us that way. He accepts us that way. Hope this helps,
God Bless,
Bev

Thank you Karenna and frstrtd for your responses. How do I think I did yesterday? The situation defused quickly, so in that respect I think I did well. While I did raise my voice, in terms of "tone" I don't think I had any hatred or venom. H was blaming me for the overdraft. I asked him to explain how it could be. I told him I've written no checks, was under the impression his last statement balanced, and the only activity I've contributed to account is putting money IN to cover the automatic payment for health insurance and the monthly service charge. His tone was full of hatred as he claimed he would "prove it's my fault, and he's gonna make me pay and he's gonna make me sorry." Again, in retrospect, I see myself falling into a familiar dysfunctional dance. He paints himself blameless, and I rise to the challenge of "proving" I'm not the bad guy. I went to the bank, made a deposit, got a printout of activity since the last statement. Lo and behold, the checks that he wrote caused the overdraft. We went through each item over the phone. I didn't have any tone in my voice that was accusatory, derrogatory, or "how could you do something so stupid." Lord knows I've made every bookkeeping mistake humanly possible in my checking accounts over the years. We determined the extent of his deficit without any angry outbursts or disrespectful judgments. I paused to see what he would say next. Silence. I asked, "Can we agree that these overdrafts were not my fault?" He stopped short of actually saying "it was my fault," but he did agree. More silence. I said, "I think you owe me an apology." (In the old days, I would have said a very sarcastic "you're welcome" after he failed to thank me for my assistance.)He said he was sorry, with a but. He was sorry for all the mean and nasty things he said, but he's so irritable from the heat and no ac, and he has so many bug bites that he's totally miserable (he works on a farm and lives in a bug infested house). From what he described about his itching, sounds like crabs to me. But that's a whole nuther topic. In the meanwhile, I'm not quite sure what to think of his apology. Actually, I do know what I think. I think signs of repentance are absent. Now I'm wondering if I should attempt further communication, or allow him to treat the incident with silent disregard. I feel a desire to tell him that I am not his enemy and I don't like being treated like one.

Congrats Lonesome Heart,
I see so much maturaty in the way you handled the situation. It seems as if you are doing your best to stay focused and not let the emotions run rampant. I am impressed!As for his living situation, I have no idea how he got to where he is, but if all he is doing is complaining, do you show any compassion in your voice or words for his plight?? He may be fishing for sympothy and there is nothing wrong with that, we all need some now and again. But if he is just having a self-pity party and inviting you in, that's a different story. As for the repentence thing, you know him best. If he really is having no real repentence, then you may need to continue to keep your distance otherwise you get into playing the same dysfunctional game all over again. And as you so astutely pointed out, you know what that dance is like and your too wise now to continue dancing it over and over again. I do suggest praying for wisdom in all your words and actions with your H right now. God is giving you knowledge that is growing you up leaps and bounds. Let him temper it with His will and power and you can be sure He is walking the path with you in all you do.Take care and God Bless,
Bev

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by frstrtd:
As for his living situation, I have no idea how he got to where he is, but if all he is doing is complaining, do you show any compassion in your voice or words for his plight?? He may be fishing for sympothy and there is nothing wrong with that, we all need some now and again. But if he is just having a self-pity party and inviting you in, that's a different story.
<hr></blockquote>Over the last year or so I've discovered that I see the best results when I give my H choices, lessons I took to heart when Boundaries in Marriage finally penetrated my brain. Last October I told him I wanted a separation unless he agreed to get counselling at the veteran center. He vehemently opposed the idea, said they're dangerous and evil people there. He's been drastically underemployed the entire time I've known him, a common condition for vets suffering from untreated ptsd. Had he sought treatment years ago, perhaps living with him would be tolerable, and we probably wouldn't be filing bankruptcy right now. Financial concerns are important, but I try to keep them in the lower rungs of my priorities. When I finally put my foot down, I believed he needed the treatment even more than the financial benefits. I told him he could leave or I could leave, but living with more of the same is not an option. I met with a counselor at the vet center myself to scope out his options. Full disability is $2000/month, and counselling is a prerequisite. During the session, C asked about drug abuse, physical abuse, is he suicidal. I told her no (with some "buts"), and she said she could guarantee that they all think about suicide. The C told me in no uncertain terms to remove the weapon from our home. Later, after I followed her advice, I must say I felt like I was getting mixed signals. (She described a patient who worried every day that he'd have a flashback and hurt someone. Her response was, you haven't harmed anyone in 30 years. Why would today be any different. I'm thinking, well, why did she tell me to ditch the gun when H has never physically harmed me, never threatened harm, and never overtly said he's suicidal) C freely admitted the guys who wait so long rarely improve by much when they finally seek treatment. I found myself wondering if that statement reflects on the quality of treatment or the difficult nature of ptsd. But I digress. H said he would leave, but he needed a couple of weeks. I said ok. Two weeks came and went. Status quo. I repeat my request. He asks for two more weeks. More status quo. I told him I'd start packing the next day because I meant what said about wanting a separation. If he doesn't leave, I will. He said again he'd leave. Well, he calls his boss and quits without notice. Said he's moving to Houston. This, from the man who wouldn't drive there by himself because the traffic stresses him out too much. He stayed with a friend for 10 days and asked to come back to talk. He got his job back (boss is VERY understanding). His (our) employer also has housing, but no openings at that time, which is fast approaching Christmas. H went back to pretending nothing is wrong. I request separation again. The second time he left, he slept in his car for 10 days. It was very hard to stand firm by my request, but I didn't back down. After a week, the effects are impacting the employer. Employer evicts a renter who's behind on their rent to make room for my H. I let H return to the house until his housing was available, which I thought would be a few days but turned into a month. The "real" separation began on January 26th. His house has no heat, no ac, no stove, no refrigerator, and no hot water because it runs on gas and H is convinced the place will blow up if the gas turns on. His living conditions are miserable. If he sought the veteran disability benefits to which he is entitled, it would be a different story. The choice is his. I continue to be amazed by his choices. From what I can tell, he'd rather live in abject poverty than seek the assistance that he needs and deserves. Living with him was draining the life force right out of me. I'm doing my best to pull myself up by the bootstraps, hoping he would join me. Doesn't seem to be working out that way. Had I known about Bold Love years ago, who knows where we'd be right now. I think I've given up hope of having a healthy marriage with this man, but I haven't given up on him. Does that make any sense? I might dance with him a few more times while the bk runs its course. It's too soon for no contact. I've made great strides in setting down responsibilities that aren't mine, and Friday I was there for him to pick up the pieces. Just couldn't help myself! It was my way of showing sympathy and compassion for his plight. It is, and has been, a one-way street. I don't know if picking up his pieces was the right way to show compassion or not. For this time, I think I did ok, but there'll be a next time and I want to do even better. Don't quite know what that would look like.

You all have been busy since I was last here! Your points were great Karenna. I think we all can admit to not handling ourselves in a worthy manner at times, but as we become aware of such, we are all making strides to change our negative behaviors into loving ones, including lovingly telling the truth and setting boundaries on ourselves so that we do not continue to sin via anger, bitterness, etc. The echo in my mind these days seem to be "give a little grace today", be merciful as God is merciful. So many examples of what bums God's people have been in the bible and still God loves and gives grace and mercy. He says vengeance is his so I don't have to do that. What was clear in the old testament seems to be covered by Christ in the new covenant, ways to cope with wrongs, accountability for my own responses to wrong done. I was listening to the family and marriage broadcast this morning on communication. According to the experts as quoted by Jimmy Evans, my marriage is on the brink of divorce. My H says he is afraid to sell the house and relocate so that we can live within our means because he is sure I am going to leave him, and YET, I still see God as bigger than all this. PerhapsI am looking at life with blinders on, I know the counsel from sisters in Christ is that I may need to remove myself from being the target so that God can deal directly with my H. Perhaps this is so. I know I am selling my belongings. If I am to move, I will need the money and sure don't need to tote tons of "stuff" with me. I am still going forward with the annual improvement projects on my property in WA. I am trying to learn how to praise the littlest of things in my H. Today I managed to state it well and he responded quietly and said thank you. I pray that I continue to seek His face before I open my mouth. LH- three months isn't very much time in the long scheme of things. Could be that God is finally hitting G right where he needs it and so he is trying to drag you back into the mess to be both the rescuer and the one he can blame for his stuff. Continue to state the truth in quiet loving affirmation. It may be more of an affirmation that you are worthy of better treatment, and that as the daughter of the King, you can give mercy and grace where necessary. I can imagine how sad God must be when we blow it by just seeing how we respond when our loved ones blow it. Of course you hope that he can get it and you can reconcile. It may be a few years in coming though. Continue to work on you and let God work on him. Hugs, friend!

Today I was sent to this website by a friend who
is praying for me and my husband. It has been
encouraging to read that there are others out
there that are fighting the same battles as I am.
I could use any help that anyone can give me.
My H moved out on 03/23/02 we will be married
one year on 05/22/02. For the first 3 weeks he
wouldn't see me or talk to me on his own free will. He was living with a friend and had met
another girl that he was just "friends" with because they could talk. He agreed to see our pastor for counseling and has at times made an effort to go to church. We have only been to counseling twice becuase the pastor has been out of town. My H says he doesn't like going because he feels attacked and that he can't really open up to the pastor because he will just have an answer out of the Bible. At one time my husband was very much in love with the Lord and with me. Over the last few months his heart really changed. He began spending more time away from home. We argured more and he "checked out" of the marriage. We were both praying for our marriage and we had seen some progress but then he left. He is only 18 as of 03/22/02 and is 7 years younger then I am. I have a son. I am sure you will read this and think how stupid of us both, too young, not mature, can't be responsible, and I realize now that even though we both beleived that we were ready that he now has doubts and resensts the
responsibility of being married. In my heart I continue to choose to love him and over the last week his heart has been softend towards me. He has begun to come see me and call and ask me to be part of his life. On Friday he said that he wants to come home and take care of me and to work on our marriage. On Sunday he wasn't at church but I saw him that night and he again said that part of him wants to come home but he is confussed and torn. He said he isn't sure if he wants the responsibility, if he is ready. He says he knows that coming home is the right thing to do but that he has no real peace about it or anything else. Even if we rushed ahead of God's plan in our lives and married too soon I don't want to step out of God's will again and make another mistake, which is how I see divorce. Some days I am filled with hope and then the next day is so very difficult. I am getting use to coming home and him not being there, but I don't want it to become a natural part of my life. I want so desperately for my marriage to work. I love my husband and he says that he loves me. Does anyone have any suggestions? He is living with 2 friends and is in a band. The band has always been his focus and his dream. It is not a Christian band in anyway though and I know that he is choosing to do many things that are against God. Is there anything I can to? I don't want to give up hope but I don't want to continue to get hurt. The waiting is so difficult. I know that God is working in both of our lives. I am scared to loose him. I am scared that in the end he will choose to divorce me. I can't imagine that. I continuously pray for both of us and our marriage. Sometimes I feel like I pray too much, that I am just saying the same things over and over out of doubt. Sometimes I do doubt so much, not God, but that my H will let God work like he says he will. The last note he left me said that he doesn't know what the future holds for us but that he is open to anything God wants him to do and that he hopes God will lead him back to me. And from what he says part of him feels that leading but won't go ahead and do it. How can I help? How do I pray? How do I just live in the moment and not worry? What if he does divorce me? Any help would be appreciated and all your prayers would be a blessing. Hurt and Confused
Krista
kd434681@peoplepc.com

I apologize in advance for a hard kind of rant here. But as the mother of three sons it is hard to read this with a lot of compassion. <blockquote>quote:<hr>My H moved out on 03/23/02 we will be married one year on 05/22/02. <hr></blockquote>Ouch. What on earth were you DOING!Like my comment about the priests who had sex with teenage alter-boys: LEAVE THE KIDS ALONE!Don't marry a minor child, for heaven's sake! Isn't that just a tad short of molestation, even if he is the one with bigger muscles and hair on his chest!?Now that he is "an adult," one of you had better start acting like one, for the sake of your child who is watching how you lead your life.
<blockquote>quote:<hr> I am scared to loose him. I am scared that in the end he will choose to divorce me. I can't imagine that. <hr></blockquote>Why? Are you financially dependent on him? Are you emotionally dependent on him? Once you take some steps towards being self-sufficient, and becoming dependent upon God for comfort rather than on your H (the arm of flesh) then you will find yourself without debilitating fears. <blockquote>quote:<hr>I continuously pray for both of us and our marriage. Sometimes I feel like I pray too much, that I am just saying the same things over and over out of doubt. Sometimes I do doubt so much, not God, but that my H will let God work like he says he will. <hr></blockquote>Your husband is still in the middle of adolescence. Developmentally he is unlikely to be prepared for the mature committment of marriage. He should be finding himself right now, not taking care of you. God will do the appropriate work with him, as he allows. That may not involve keeping him with you. You were the older person. You should have been helping his mother raise a son to be a faithful Christian, and honorable member of society. Not getting him involved in marriage and sex and raising another man's child at the age of 17. <blockquote>quote:<hr>The last note he left me said that he doesn't know what the future holds for us but that he is open to anything God wants him to do and that he hopes God will lead him back to me. And from what he says part of him feels that leading but won't go ahead and do it. <hr></blockquote>I would recommend that you take a parenting class on raising teenagers. I know other women your age who are raising step-son's your husband's age and dealing with the same issues. <blockquote>quote:<hr>How can I help? How do I pray? How do I just live in the moment and not worry?<hr></blockquote>Get Power of a Praying Wife and Power of a Praying Parent to learn how to pray in a most helpful way. Worry isn't necessarily bad. Worry lets you know that you are being ineffective. When you start taking positive steps and enacting a plan the worry will resolve into a sense of concern. <blockquote>quote:<hr>What if he does divorce me? <hr></blockquote>Then I hope you have
1. a support network of family, friends, and church community, 2. a real job, and 3. child support from the father of your child.

KD434681,
I don't know what to say.....but the first thing that came to my mind is that my son is 17 years old, turning 18 in Oct, and I can't imagine him having a steady girl let alone being married!!! No offense girlfriend, but could you being looking for love in all the wrong places??I am sorry to come on strong, but maybe you need to ask God what to do....and then really, really listen for the answer from HIM, not the one your emotions give you. Find a good solid counsler who can help YOU, and stop trying to fix or manipulate your H. He is just a kid. He probrably doesn't even know what he really wants yet. You said you are 7 years older then he which makes you 24/25 years old?? Do you really know what God wants for you? And you have a child who needs a stable, loving, intact parent. Sometimes doing for our children means going without for ourselves and God supplies what we really need.We are well meaning here and if I or others seem to be harsh on you, it is only because we are on the outside looking in. You are on the inside where the reality of the situation, when brought to light, can sting. I am sorry that this is happening in your life but the sorrow and troubles we go through, when we hold onto God and seek His will in it all, will lead us to the gates of Heaven. Seek Him first and all else will follow......God Bless,
Bev

KD,
I don't know what to say either... at least in terms of being encouraging. Marriage is difficult enough even when it starts out with wine and roses. Your path had cards stacked tall against it before you even started down the aisle. That doesn't change or negate the vows you took, but if I were your very young H, I'd be investigating the legitimate reasons for annulments and hoping that it applied to me. Unless there's a typo in your dates, it looks like you married a minor.