Okay - Here's the [BDSM] URL as requested - Marriage Builders® Forums

So a few people here asked me to post the URL where the OW's new book is coming out. I've been really busy and kinda forgot, but I decided to do it.

The OW has a desire to be famous, first she was to be a Kareoke Host Extraordinare and now she has changed her career path to a BDSM expert.

I'd like to know what you here on MB think of these types of books. Are they what you would consider sexually tasteful and mainstream? Please be brutally honest if necessary.

Location of OW's Book

Anyhoooooo, there ya go LeAnne!

Love,
Jo

note: All names have been kept confidential to protect the innocent/guilty.

2nd note: Mod's, I hope it's within MB guidelines to post this URL. If not, please email me & I'll quickly remove it, no worries. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

[ July 30, 2003, 02:57 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]

Good lord. Are you serious?

As serious as a heart attack.

Hi Bellevue,

Yeah, I know .... this whole thing .. the affair and all, it really did a number on me. Made me wonder if I'm a prude or something and doubt myself regarding sex and stuff.

I mean I know it's all up to the two adults in what they participate in sexually. But I was with my ex-H for nearly 21 years and nothing like this sexual stuff ever surfaced, there were no clues that this is what he was truly all about, or needed.

So because he was pretty much the only very long term sexual experience I have under my belt, thereby my yard-stick for what is "NORMAL", I sometimes think there is something wrong with me because I will NOT ever participate in something like what they ex-H/OW do (i.e., The URL - BDSM)

Heck, I didn't even know what that acronym BDSM stood for until I visited that site, let alone what it is really.

Love,
Jo

[ July 26, 2003, 06:16 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]

Hi Jo. Wow and wow, unreal and amazing. You are not a prude and there's nothing wrong with you.

To each his/her own, as they say but this is so far out of the realm of normalcy in loving, sexual relationships. Is it even real or is OW just doing some creative writing? I know there are people into this sort of thing but I'd venture to say that if your ex-H was one of them, then surely some sign of it would have surfaced with you in the 21 years you were together.

This OW is one sick little chickee who is famous only in her own mind.

Hi TD,

Thanks for responding.

I tend to think this isn't just creative writing on OW's part. She use to say some pretty hard core things to my husband via voice-pager. Some of it was over my head and some of it I stayed in denial that it meant what it meant, you know what I mean?

Hearing from folks here helps me know I'm not that far off when it comes to what's "over the line".

Thanks a bunch!
Jo

[ July 27, 2003, 11:43 AM: Message edited by: Resilient ]

I must be a prude, wrinkled and sane!!! Yikes....that site is morally scary! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Fantasy reading??? Some of those subjects s/b banned! Talk about foggy. YUCK!

But hey, if that is the best that OW can do..... well then may she lose $$ on this sikko venture. The bad piece is that there is an audience out there that like such morbid stuff.

Jo, the saner ones probably wouldn't be able to understand all that stuff. We know you're ok, it's that OW that needs a label on her.

L.

Thanks O.

I don't stress over this really. I just wonder sometimes how we stayed together so long without this ever showing itself.

There was a time after we separated and we had just left a therapy session. Ex-H said to me as we sat in my car "There are things you don't know about me as a married man" .... when he said it I swear his eyes glazed over and they rolled back in his head. <sigh>

This master/subsurvient deal [BDSM] is one weird way to look at sex, to me it's strange that people need it to feel fullfilled. I would think they'd have to bring it up a notch each time, and that makes me ask the question, where do they draw a line, or do they?

Lv,
Jo

[ July 27, 2003, 11:53 AM: Message edited by: Resilient ]

Sorry, not sure which book is the one you want opinions on!

Jo, if that's what you'd have had to do to keep your H interested, you deserve better. That site is pathetic. And the OW's brain must be fried. She wants to be famous? Ugh.

Hey, how is the dressage thing going? That's a lot more interesting and fun than what the OW's up to. I'm impressed with you. I don't ride because horses scare me; they're so large and they know when you can't ride from the minute you hop on their backs.

But I love to scratch their faces from the other side of the fence and talk baby talk to them. (Loony, yes that's me.)

Jen,

I can't devulge which book it is because I would then be disclosing the OW's name [she actually used her real name as the author]. Sorry. But do know that her book is based in BDSM.

Jo

[ July 28, 2003, 11:10 AM: Message edited by: Resilient ]

eeeewwwww!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

None of that cr*p (that's the best descriptive word that came to mind) has ANY place in a healthy relationship based on love and respect.

It's just plain gross. We can only pray for their eyes to be opened, I guess.

Lori

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by at peace:
eeeewwwww!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

None of that cr*p (that's the best descriptive word that came to mind) has ANY place in a healthy relationship based on love and respect.

It's just plain gross. We can only pray for their eyes to be opened, I guess.
<hr /></blockquote>In my opinion, a healthy relationship is precisely the place for those activities. Where else is the spouse going to go to get those desires fulfilled?

Many of these desires are not "normal", but they are also not bad. Normal is defined by society so pretty much anything other than man-on-top-lights-out-missionary would be considered not normal. But these activities can be quite enjoyable for the couples if they're into it so I say let them do it. I've heard interviews with long-term married couples into BDSM and they seem very close to each other. I would think the sharing of their fetish has brought them closer together. Not to say that BDSM will bring all couples closer together, but that being able to share your secret fetish (whatever it is) and have it accepted by the other person will strengthen the relationship.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />In my opinion, a healthy relationship is precisely the place for those activities. Where else is the spouse going to go to get those desires fulfilled?

Many of these desires are not "normal", but they are also not bad. Normal is defined by society so pretty much anything other than man-on-top-lights-out-missionary would be considered not normal. But these activities can be quite enjoyable for the couples if they're into it so I say let them do it. I've heard interviews with long-term married couples into BDSM and they seem very close to each other. I would think the sharing of their fetish has brought them closer together. Not to say that BDSM will bring all couples closer together, but that being able to share your secret fetish (whatever it is) and have it accepted by the other person will strengthen the relationship.<hr /></blockquote>Thanks for replying Ruoy ....

Listen, to me normal sex is not just missionary, Hon. I'm very adventerous, and I think we can just leave it at that.

I agree that sharing sexually adventerous experiences is very bonding and becomes an emotional imprint with your spouse, but I just can't see whipping someone into submission as a bonding experience. Pain for me is not a loving nor erotic jesture. Call me silly ...

And calling your spouse "MASTER"? What is THAT? I think I'd start to crack up doing something like that. LOL

So I'm guessing you're male, Ruoy. Can you help me by telling me .... what would you say are the percentage of males that fantasize about BDSM experiences? Just curious.

Jo

[ July 28, 2003, 03:15 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]

What one thinks of as disgusting or distastful is what another thinks of as ecstacy. Some cultures frown on oral sex, and to a lot of people that is a natural part of sexual intercourse for them. As long as it involves CONSENTING ADULTS ofcourse then who am I to judge!

JO!!

Long time no see!

I tried to go to the site this morning but it was blocked due to my company's policies. That I found hysterial this morning.

Hope all is well with you!!

K

Well, I'm not into BDSM so I can only let you know what I've heard. It does nothing for me and I don't fantasize about it and I don't know what percentage of guys do. I can understand how someone else could be into it, but it doesn't do anything for me. I think I would end up laughing which would probably ruin the mood <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

From what I understand, it's the submissive person who is in control of the situation. That is, they define how far things go and when they should stop. So the whipping might start out soft and the submissive person would indicate, harder, harder, harder, ok that's good. There was one show on HBO where this woman was being lightly whipped and she orgasmed just from that. So the master wouldn't whip the slave into submission unless that's what the slave wanted. BDSM is not about using force and pain to make someone do something they don't want to.

Some BDSM involves pain, but not all. For some people, the feeling of pain in a sexual setting enhances the sexual feelings. For some people it's a little pain and for some people it's a lot of pain.

BDSM can also involve power. Some people get a sexual rush from either being in control or giving up control. One of the professional dominatrix ladies said that many of her clients were CEO's, doctors, and lawyers. They have to be in control all day so they enjoyed BDSM where they were submissive and could give up all that control.

I don't think the couples had a master-slave relationship all the time. Just when it was "playtime." Their regular relationship seemed quite normal.

It's too bad your husband didn't come to you with these desires first. Maybe you could have gone along with them. Or maybe not. Did he tell you if he's always felt this way or was it something the OW exposed to him and he found out he liked it?

[ July 28, 2003, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: Ruoy ]

never mind the subject matter. the writing is just plain bad.

Do I dare ask. I feel so naive, and I thought I was somewhat enlightened in my knowledge area.

What is BDSM?

BDSM stands for Bondage-Discipline-Sado-Machism. Usually it involves pretending there is master-slave relationship for some sort of physical gratification. It might involve pain or it might just be a situation where there is a power difference (one person pretends to be a policeman, other person pretends to be the criminal).

Bondage -- restraining a person
Discipline -- disciplining a person
Sado -- enjoys causing pain to a person
Machism -- enjoys feeling pain

That site made me wanna hurl...

I peeked at work over the weekend and quickly bailed out...imagining being called in to my bosses office explaining THAT one .... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Whippit nailed it the writing is soooooooooo bad...

Being a prude extroidaniarre (except with Mr. Ark)...I have a confession to make....at christmas time I was in the book store alone..meaning toddler free...
whoohoo..and toying with the idea of looking at and perhaps purchasing some erotica as a gift Christmas gift for hubby....

Sooooo there I am on a Friday night before Christmas in a packed store..in the so named erotica sections cracking up like a wierdo...

NOT to mention that this section is also smack dab in the middle of the self help section...from anything to marital strife...to dealing with psychiatric disorders...

Soooo while thumbing through things like letters never published by Penthouse...laughing hysterically and attempting to come up with a back up book to grab if God forbid the kids preschool teacher walks by or someone from work...realizing that the back up books would be just as "interesting" as catching me with penthouse or Erotica by five housewives...tee hee......
I gave up!!!!!!!!! with nooooooooo regret....and went home and confessed my failed mission at Borders to hubby...who just laughed at me...

It's not creative writing...it is a very skewed point of view of intimacy and a healthy relationship....the funny thing is that the books appear to be A LOT about engaging with "violent at worst and unequal at best" sexual interactions...
and while those that engage in such and claim all this mumbo jumbo of it having to be safe and with some one you know and trust...the litature is just the opposite...and example after example is with stranges which is anything but safe...no matter the sexual act..

so what they profess BDSM to be...is not what appears to be portrayed in the literature....

So if you see someone at Borders laughing in the Erotica section it could ME!!!!!!!!!!!!
But most likely in disguise <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Resilient...she...and even what he has become is no reflection on you....the farther one goes down a path of disrepecting and devaluing the real gift of human sexuality..obvious nothing is shocking...and this site has nothing to do with two people in a bedroom..this site disrepects human sexuality...

just the one re-cap on one of the books talking of slave-boys smacks of overt abuse and pedaphelia...and EVEN if I were an "erotica" writer...whom I am sure some are very nice people <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ...I would never whore my writings on a site next to other such filth!!!!!!!

ARK

I agree with, Ark.

I'm not a prude by ANY means, but I feel there's a big difference between "adventurous" and plain ole disrespect. IMO, there is no respect in BDSM; and s*x without respect is not healthy for a marriage.

As I said, that's just my opinion. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Lori

What I also find interesting is that ex-H has said that OW is naive and innocent. I'm leaning towards thinking that statement came from another part of his anatomy and not his brain.

Disrespectful judgment? You betcha!

Jo

[ July 29, 2003, 01:17 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]

I'm sorry, but WHAT A SKANK!

Yeah, to each their own, but she's not only into kinky sex, but she is also a mistress. She truly is lacking morals something fierce!

See, it's unreal skanky women like this that make REAL women feel like we're prudes!

She's not just sexually aware -- she's SKANKY.

You can be sexually aware and enjoy sex and appreciate it and be fulfilled and all that without having to advertize it. She's got some serious emotional problems...and she's a skank too. Did I already mention that?

Jo,

I do know that name of the dominatrix involved. would it be unethical for me to point it out? Don't worry, I won't.

Ya' know what?

I am so impressed with you I can hardly stand it. I am reading along on this post,and everyone is agreeing with you and then I read the reply from Ruoy and I freeze. I am thinking about how is reply is going to hurt your feelings b/c he talked about how it can bring a couple closer together to expericene these things yada, yada...

I was waiting for you to lambast him (in your own ladylike way) and you were ok with it! It didn't seem to hurt you at all. What the heck happened here? Did you heal and not tell me? If so, how the heck did you manage that?

Jo, you are different, you really are. You were always great, don't get me wrong, but we were all (as much as I hate this word) kinda bitter. You just sound good, you're looking at this horrid book with interest rather than pain...I paid a lot of money to a shrink that told me that when I can do that I will be well on my way to true recovery.

I do go on...sheesh.

Love to you Jo and congrats!

Well hi Allison, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I couldn't have received a better compliment, thank you. Brought me to tears cuz, as you well know, this all has been so hard.

I have to be honest, I was a bit hurt reading what good 'ole Ruoy wrote, but it was just a bit, not much more than that ... and then I remembered that I wouldn't trade where I am right now in my life to be in a relationship with ex-H and don't envy the type of sexual relationship he has with OW (and here I am celibate too! lol) .... I do not doubt in any way that OW has serious psychological issues. I had the opportunity to experince that first hand, remember?

I'm still hurt and I'm still occasionally angry, Allison. Just ask Lora ... LOL. But I must be moving ahead and healing because here I am asking what to expect from a NORMAL sexual relationship wondering if all men, or a great percentage of them, expect or need what my ex-H obviously did and didn't tell me. I'm doing research LMAO ..... watch out men!

How are you doing anyway? Lora extended you an invite to come stay with either her or I, or both, during the time your ex-H marry's barfy OW. You thinking about it?

Love,
Jo

[ July 29, 2003, 05:29 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]

Well...

I just checked and flights are about $300 round-trip. I'd fly into the Seattle airport, right?
The only thing that would mess me up is the timing of the sale of my house. Let me give this a little more thought. I'm just not sure if ex is leaving right away for honeymoon - it's his weekend with the kids - but if he takes off right away I'd need to be home for them.

Let me ponder this for a few days and run it by kids and b/f and see if ex is going to be around for a day after his big event.

I'd love to see you both.
Lora, thanks for thinking of it.
allison

I have no expertise in this area (BDSM). But I do have an opinion about human sexuality....(don't have an opinion about yours though since you haven't revealed it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

First the notion that anything goes between consenting adults is "ok", is ignorant. This presupposes all adult human beings are psychologically/emotionally healthy and capable of making "good" (meaning life enhancing) decisions all the time. This is obviously wrong...the landscape is littered with dysfunctional people of all flavors, why wouldn't this include people who "consent" to unhealthy sexual activities?

IMO healthy sexuality can be defined, and any sexual behaviour can be assesed as to whether it enhances or diminishes the human condition (and discussed accordingly). That makes your question Jo, right on target. Aside from the primal drives of procreation (and the hardwired pursuit/submission strategies of males and females), IMO sex is about building intimacy. The physical component of a triad. Emotional safety, psychological compatibility, and physical vulnerability. The common thread being the nurturing of one's partner. Without writing a book here, suffice to say that sexual activities that "feel" good, AND do not diminish or disrespect your partner make sense. BDSM may "feel" good (more on that in a minute), but it clearly does not foster desireable psychological goals. Whether someone "willingly" participates is not the test (heck drug addicts "willingly" participate all the time), why someone wants to be hurt, or in a power focused condition is the issue....and IMO means the participants are sexually expressing serious psychological deficiencies.

As for "feeling" good. Lots of things feel good, but when done without consideration for well-being, or in excess, can be ill-advised...the most obvious example being eating and it's consequences. Eating hot fudge sundaes feels really good, but eating very many of them will have undesireable consequences. I think the same applies to all "normal" human needs, such as sex, control, vanity (admiration, grooming) etc.

Back to you jo, re the site, had the feeling to me of a focus on sexual excess, always seeking the greater thrill, or excessively celebrateing normal sexual feelings (such as pursuit, or lust, or vulnerability). IMO had your H expressed an interest in such thing, accomodateing would not have been ok, psychological counselling would have been...to find out why he needs aberant behaviour to express his sexuality. IMO sex should never be about power, disrespect, demeaning, pain....

As to whether males or females are more attracted, I don't know...but I would imagine such beahviour is heavily populated by messed up people...and that a certain % of females are pressured into these activities fearful of losing their partners.

Rouy post about powerful people seeking release from pressure by submission was interesting, and may be true, but this is not a healthy way to address such an issue. There are many acts of service available to those who wish to not be in control which are healthy and have good outcomes.

Broken record here: I don't want to get involved with what two consenting adults do in their own bedroom, so I don't have a problem with the site, per se. It's not my bag, and I'm not into pain, but I know some folks who are, and they find like-minded people to play with, so no harm, no foul, as far as I'm concerned.

What I do have a problem with, especially when talking about infidelity, is when one spouse suddenly takes a turn into something totally foreign to the marriage and then expects the other spouse to comply.

Jo, is that what happened in your marriage? Along with the other things (like the groupies, etc.) that we know about...

Anyway, I did click on the link, and won't ever go back, but it was interesting... if "interesting" is the right word. Yipes!

[ July 29, 2003, 10:44 PM: Message edited by: new_beginning ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by sufdb:
First the notion that anything goes between consenting adults is "ok", is ignorant. This presupposes all adult human beings are psychologically/emotionally healthy and capable of making "good" (meaning life enhancing) decisions all the time. This is obviously wrong...the landscape is littered with dysfunctional people of all flavors, why wouldn't this include people who "consent" to unhealthy sexual activities?<hr /></blockquote>While I understand what you're saying in relation to unhealthy relationships, I would argue that one man's "healthy" is not another's.

Some folks might find it healthy to always be in the missionary position and turn the lights out... and I know of some women who refuse to give oral sex - ever - they think it's amoral and disguisting... others roll play and have fun during sex... still others I know have sex every night whether they want it or not... which, if any (or all) are dysfuntional?

... and you're right, the world *is* litfered with dysfuntion, but I won't label in the same way you might.

[ July 29, 2003, 10:46 PM: Message edited by: new_beginning ]

Not knowing which book is hers, I’ll just comment on what I there…. Humans can sexualize anything. And some people have emotional problems that make them never feel satisfied. They keep pushing the limits hoping that the next level will provide the excitement and fulfillment they need. The problem is that nothing will. So the level of experimentation and desires for (what do it call it?) ‘extreme sex’? keeps going up.

I am not a prude at all. Nor is my H. But one thing that we have both learned is to concentrate on the caring and loving part of SF. We strive to enhance that as much as or more then the wildness of our SF.

I find most of what is on that web site to be offensive and totally void of any like of love and caring. Hedonistic is a good word for it.

And yea, what sufdb said so I won’t pontificate when he’s done such a good job of it.

I found the book that describes a rape to be disgusting… to present a rape as sensual or erotic is sick, really sick. The writing is sophomoric. Shoot maybe I could get into a new line of work. Even I could spew out junk that poorly written.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />While I understand what you're saying in relation to unhealthy relationships, I would argue that one man's "healthy" is not another's.<hr /></blockquote>You know, I can get into a bit of role-playing. It’s fun. So I can see where some very low level (BDSM) might be fun. But again it’s what crosses the line?

I personally have a very hard time ‘playacting’ rape and/or slavery. Just what I want … to teach a man that rape is ok and fun… sick. Rape is a real life horror. I do not get playing with it. And I have a real issue with slavery too.. another real life horror. When I think of playing the part for that nothing erotic comes to mind… I only see the thousands and women and children who even today really are sex salves around the world. It’s a real issue. So again it teaches people that it’s ok to enslave and abuse someone. Children play act the things they are learning…. Adults are nothing more then taller children. I know, some people will think that I’m weird seeing is this way. That I cannot separate out reality from fantasy. But I’ve experienced rape.. I do not need to play act it. And as a child I lived in Ethiopia, where there were slaves and harems. (Believe me the women in those harems are slaves. They have no free choice about anything.) I say the young girls and women first hand. It’s not something that I take lightly.

Yes what is “healthy” or one person may not be for another. But let’s face it some things are just not healthy.. there are some absolutes in this world.

Every time I hear about BDSM I think of a young lady I knew years ago who was into it. She used to walk around with cuts and bruises. She would go on and on about how she got them and how it turned her on. IMO a person who confuses pain with pleasure has some serious problems. That was sick and unhealthy.

Jo, IMHO the lady is sick.