tables are turned WS persues BS - Marriage Builders® Forums

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My H and I have been married for 5 years together for 8. Last April I had an A and took my two sons (will be 3 &4 in Jan.)and moved out of our house at H request. My A is over now (I ended it) NC and I have learned what every therapist has already told me about A's. They are like drugs! I learned that I love my H more than any man in the world. In October 2002 we tried to “fix” our marriage and went to counceling for 3 months. Feb I relapsed. Well we are at it again to “fix” our marriage. We are seeking counceling seperatly and as a couple. But the problem is now that I KNOW I am ready to work on myself and my marriage, my husband is not so enthused about it . We have lived apart for a year and a half now and I know we have a lot of issues to work out. He is scared and being very cautious. Understandably so. I just feel like I am at a loss because I keep giving love and get nothing not even an acknowledgement. How do I get him to let me back in his life and to come back into mine? He tells me that he doesn’t want a divorce and that he loves me but he needs time. How much time? Time is a big part of the reason I relapsed and I told my H that too. I have issuses with needing to be validated “know what I mean” is something I say in every conversation I have no matter who its with. All of those negative traits we look for in a mate (Imago) hit me so hard and deep that sometimes I just feel hopeless. Another problem we had in the past was that we got to a stalemate we couldn’t build our relationship any futher because we were apart. He would come over and see us 2 or 3 times a week for about 3 hours each time. He would almost always have to go home before the boys were even asleep. That left no time for us together. How long is too long to live apart and try to work on a marriage? Also Dr harley talks about the WS falling and the BS being there to catch them and to have the welcome mat ready when the A has ended I have realized what I have done was so horrible and feel so much pain and guilt over it. I have told him many times (everyday) how much I love him and miss him. Why is he not there to catch me when I fell? All the things I have read on the site talk about the BS persuing the WS after the A is over what about the WS that has to persue the BS? Anyone been through this? I need some help desperatly.

Why is he not there to catch me when I fell? All the things I have read on the site talk about the BS persuing the WS after the A is over what about the WS that has to persue the BS?

Are you still in the fog????

Listen up. You may not like what I have to say. You cheated on your husband. You left him (and took away his children) to be with another man. He went to counselling with you to try to reconcile. You cheated again. And you expect him to pursue you just because your world has fallen in???

BS DO NOT PURSUE the WS once the A is over. They begin rebuilding the marriage together.

I KNOW I am ready to work on myself and my marriage, my husband is not so enthused about it .

Did you also say this the last time you and your H tried to work on your M in Oct? Once bitten, twice shy.

He tells me that he doesn’t want a divorce and that he loves me but he needs time.

If he says he doesn't want a divorce - don't push your luck!!

Continue to work on yourself. SHOW your H that you are genuine. Actions speak louder than words.

Many here know that 13 years ago I was the WW.

You are making too many assumptions.

And I'm unsure of your time line ... are you saying April 2002 you had and A and relapsed in Feb 2003?

First: when you enter into an affair you willingly make a gamble that your BS will be able to get over it and take you back, when and if you (the WS) decide to come back.

Second: men have a harder time taking back a WW than women do taking back a WH. (from experts)

Third: If the time line above is correct you "relapsed" 9 months after your first d-day -- and I would guess 9 months of work by your BH was flushed down the toliet too.

He may be worried that you'll "relapse" again.

Third: it is harder for a BS to take the WS spouse back, reconcil and rebuild if the WS fought during d-day and drug d-day out, instead of settling immediately into NC and rebuilding AND was entirely supportive and contrite.

Also it is also harder for a BS to take a WS back if games were played by the WS during reconcilation and rebuilding. And you played those games when you "relapsed".

If you've read every book .. go back and read SAA again. What I just said is in there.

Fourth: EVERY BS IS DIFFERENT -- What you read in books is the average. Don't assume he will react exactly the way the book says he will.

Recovery is on HIS time table not yours. If you've played games during reconstruction you've disrupted or distroyed the time table.

Fifth: ever hear of the saying "Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me." ? With your game playing he may feel that you fooled him both times and he will not let you get a third time in.

Sixth: after d-day a BS is in tremdous pain and can become very lonely. Lonelier than they have ever been. It is a very danergous time in their life, some drown their emotions in drugs and alcohol, some seek out and find good friends and a support network (family, friends, MB), some find another person and become WS themselves.

Since you played games while intially in reconstruction this may have happened.

Seventh: You H did catch you when you fell, through his pain, your leaving and taking the kids he did go to counseling, it sounds like at that point he was willing to work with you.

Do you have some fantasy dream of how he "should" react and be and have failed to see what he did do?

Your actions will speak louder than your words now .. and it will take more time.

way2

P.S. I think a WS persues a BS more often than you think.

[ November 06, 2003, 09:29 AM: Message edited by: way2 ]

Rachel,

What you see here are BS's who WANT their marriage after a spouse commits adultery. You don't see the vast majority who DON'T WANT their WS back and would rather move on. For me, if my WS did it twice, there would be no third chance. I am amazed that yours is even willing to give you a third chance. If he is willing to do that, you should pretty much be willing to go to any length to accommodate him and be grateful for that.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Time is a big part of the reason I relapsed and I told my H that too. <hr /></blockquote>This would alarm me terribly if I were your H and give me second thoughts. Its bad enough that you did it a second time, but you blamed it on him! You are telling him loud and clear that if you don't get your way, you will "relapse." [aka screw around] What if you are unhappy in the future? Are you going to screw around again?

"Relapse" is a word usually applied to those with a physical disease, not a behaviorial CHOICE. Using it to define a CHOICE to commit adultery sounds like a weasel word to me and I would imagine it does to him too.

A good first step might be to start using accurate, honest language that indicates that you truly understand the desdtructive nature of your behavior and TAKE FULL ACCOUNTABILITY FOR IT. You have destroyed this man's life and you are calling it a "relapse." Whew!

I would also suggest that you ASSURE him that there is NO EXCUSE for adultery and that he is not to blame for your second contact. If you FEEL that way, that is. If not, you need to tell him that you reserve the right to commit adultery again if the going gets tough. He has a RIGHT TO KNOW THIS.

Otherwise, you have to assure him that you won't run out and do this again if you don't get your way. Assure him that adultery is unacceptable under any circumstances.

I am sorry to be so harsh, but as a BS, I see huge red flags in your story. You would have been LONG GONE if you were my spouse and I can see why he is hesitant.

rachel - Sounds to me like your marriage has a good chance of being rebuilt. Of course your H is hesitant. Now your job is to work on yourself. The issues that contributed to the A may still be there. If I were in your place, I would do diligent counseling to figure out why time would cause a relapse. I would start taking action to make amends to my H. I would get on a spiritual program, go to a women's support group and start really changing. When H sees this he may soften his attitude, but you will be a happier and better person no matter what happens. I am a BS and H has been gone 4 months. If he suddenly came back I know it would take a long time for me to trust again. Keep posting and get busy working on you.

There is a lot of issues here, not the least of which is what is your real agenda, and are you being honest with yourself about it. Many people "decide" their former mate was the "best" for them, but they decide that based on what they want..... people know these things, I didn't hear anything in your post about whether this is the best for your H, only for you....that is the reason you left in the first place, everything is about you, your subsequent actions seem to follow the same pattern. He may be concerned, and rightly so, you have no capacity for being concerned about his well-being (except as it benefits you), so he is reluctant to place himeself in harm's way. About all you can do is be extremely patient, very focused on him (but you have to still have apprppriate boundaries, no use being needy, or doormat, both are unattractive), and demonstrate any way you can a willingness to meet his needs without any concern about yours. Even then, the dynamics have changed, you are both different people, and he may not want more than a friendship/co-parent relationship with you...but if so, he should get off the fence at some point and file for divorce.

Another possibility is he is seeing another woman. That is high likelihood given your marital circumstances (and your description of your current interactions), and he is conflicted over who to be faithful to. Does he avoid physical intimacy with you?

Rachel you won't get nowhere until you start being totally open and honest with your H, and that includes telling him the things that you told us here but may have not told him for fear that it may make him withdraw further away from you. DO NOT HIDE ANYTHING FROM HIM, be an open book for him. If you make radical honesty a part of your life, his trust in you will follow.

Start from the top and work my way down….....
Q. And you expect him to pursue you just because your world has fallen in???
Q. Are you still in the fog????
A. NO the fog lifted right after I filed for Divorce reality hit really HARD

Q. And you expect him to pursue you just because your world has fallen in???
A. My world fell the day he made me move out of the house and he knows that too, he gave me 24 hrs to decide him or the OM it was painful for me and his words hurt so bad I ran.

Q. Did you also say this the last time you and your H tried to work on your M in Oct? Once bitten, twice shy.
A.Last time I told him basically the same thing yes and I have told him that I wouldn’t blame him if he just told me to go to he77. Once bitten twice shy were his exact words but he added as the songs goes

Q. Continue to work on yourself. SHOW your H that you are genuine. Actions speak louder than words.
A. This is all I have known to do. If I work on me maybe he will see I really mean it this time. I meant it last time but you know “when the going gets tough the tough get going” I shagged. I wasn’t strong enough to hold on so I just let everything I wanted go.

Q. I'm unsure of your time line ... are you saying April 2002 you had and A and relapsed in Feb 2003?
A. feb 2002 affair started, became sexual in april 2002 and husband found out about affair, next day I moved out, Oct 2002 affair ended NC was not inplemented, started counceling with H and then NC with OM. Did counceling till Feb 2003. OM called me and like a fool I answered the phone for the first time since he left with the intentions of telling him to leave me alone he had called almost eveyday since I made him leave in Oct. He told me all the things I wanted my H to tell me and like a horny, emotionally vunerable teenage I fell right back into the affair.

Q. You H did catch you when you fell, through his pain, your leaving and taking the kids he did go to counseling, it sounds like at that point he was willing to work with you.
A. H has been in counceling since 1993 with the same person we went to together. This time we will have a different therapist. It’s a long story but to sum it up in a few words she is HIS therapist and she takes sides when trying to work on past issues. I know it was my decision to have the affair but there were things that led to it that we both contributed to and she doesn’t see that. She also says the "blame game" is a NO NO but shes was the one doing it not us.

Q. Do you have some fantasy dream of how he "should" react and be and have failed to see what he did do?
A. I used to but I have found out that the things I thought he didn’t do, he did just in his own way. That way wasn’t the way I thought it should be. This was a very hard thing for me to learn and I am still working on understanding it but in a whole I do know I was wanted a fantasy.

Q. What you see here are BS's who WANT their marriage after a spouse commits adultery. You don't see the vast majority who DON'T WANT their WS back and would rather move on. For me, if my WS did it twice, there would be no third chance. I am amazed that yours is even willing to give you a third chance. If he is willing to do that, you should pretty much be willing to go to any length to accommodate him and be grateful for that.
A. I am very grateful and willing to do anything he wants me to do to prove my love and faithfulness to him. I even asked him if he wanted me to go run naked on the freeway to prove it to him. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> old joke we have. He just wont tell me what he needs.

Q. Relapse" is a word usually applied to those with a physical disease, not a behaviorial CHOICE. Using it to define a CHOICE to commit adultery sounds like a weasel word to me and I would imagine it does to him too.
A. this is how our therapist refered to it because she believes that affairs are like drug addictions. I totally agree with her on this. And to define “relapse” it is the act or an instance of backsliding, worsening, or subsiding or a recurrence of symptoms of a disease after a period of improvement or to slip or fall back into a former worse state (merriam webster dictionary)

Q. I would also suggest that you ASSURE him that there is NO EXCUSE for adultery and that he is not to blame for your second contact.
A. I have talked with him about it and he knows I have no excuses and we are both to blame because I had an EN that he could not fullfill AT THAT TIME and I could not wait for it to be met. I am learning to deal with these needs.

Q. Now your job is to work on yourself. The issues that contributed to the A may still be there.
A. This is what I have been doing. As I said b4 if I work on me he will come around in time. But most people have a WS come back to them is that living togather? We do not and have agreed not to untill he and I are both ready for that mostly him though. I really wouldnt care if he moved in tomorrow with no strings attached he could have his own room and I would have mine but we know it would only hurt us right now. In a way that is a catch 22 to me you need to be together to get beyond a certain point but if you are apart it causes emotional distance. It allows each of us to have separate lives when we are supposed to be working on making a life together again.

Q. are you being honest with yourself about it
A. for the first time in a year and a half I am

Q. I didn't hear anything in your post about whether this is the best for your H, only for you
A. This is what he has told me that he wants, he just wants his wife and kids back.

Q. Another possibility is he is seeing another woman.
A. There is no other woman. Friends of ours that he hangs out with a lot say that I am the only woman he wants. He did try once to have relations with another woman but it just caused him more pain.

Q. Rachel you won't get nowhere until you start being totally open and honest with your H, and that includes telling him the things that you told us here but may have not told him for fear that it may make him withdraw further away from you. DO NOT HIDE ANYTHING FROM HIM, be an open book for him. If you make radical honesty a part of your life, his trust in you will follow.
A. I do this everyday! Its something new for me but with all the personal work I have been doing it comes easier to me than b4. I do worry that telling him somethings will push him away but it just draws him closer to me. I “got dramatic” as he calls it 2 nights ago on the phone with him. Told him all my feelings and thanked him for listening and for allowing me to “vent”. We both learned a lot in that conversaiton. It was wonderful to be able to talk to by bestfriend again.

Thank you all for your responses I need input so badly right now. I knew I would get some harsh feedback when I posted and I know the truth hurts sometimes. Thank you for the Honesty!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by rachelw81:

I even asked him if he wanted me to go run naked on the freeway to prove it to him. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> old joke we have. He just wont tell me what he needs.
[/QB]<hr /></blockquote>Oh if it were only that simple....you`d do it wouldn`t you? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

There is no quick fix here. Count me into the minority of BS`s who wanted nothing further to do with their WS. My H was also a drug addict so we had alot to overcome too.

You have to make some drastic changes here and make them stick. My WH was very patient. He Plan A`d me for two solid years with NOTHING in return. Of course we were still in the same house which made it easier.

How patient are you? How much do you want this? How hard are you willing to work for it? You are already starting off ahead in the game because your H still loves you. I did not love my H.

You can turn this around but you have to change YOU. You can do this if you are committed. No more contact with OM, and make sure you prove this DAILY to your H. Start to put your H ahead of everyone and everything. Show him what he means to you and keep it up for as long as it takes. The recipe here is changes, consistency patience and time.

If my H was able to do this then pretty much anyone can do it if they put their mind to it.

Good luck.

Ok, I personally don't think you are too bad of a position rachel if you are willing to be patient. Couple of Q's. When you "relapsed" was it a one time thing or did it go on? If it went on for a while when did it end? The advice you've gotten is pretty sound I think. Be patient and work on meeting as many of your H's EN's as you can. It sounds like he may just need time to sort everything out. Believe me, it takes a lot longer than we'd like it to. Telling him that you want it to work is great, but he's got to see it. Right now he may not see that. Even though you're putting everything you've got into it, he may still see the "backsliding" out of the corner of his mind's eye. Show him you want to meet his EN's, that you want him to be able to meet your EN's. He also has to know that if your EN's are not getting met, he doesn't have to worry about a "relapse". He needs to know you will be willing to have an open, safe conversation about it. I would also suggest you two only see the same counselor. One that is pro-marriage. When he's seeing an IC, that persons job is to help HIM, and make HIM feel better. You are not her job, he is. If it is her opinion that you are the cause of ALL his pain (which I highly doubt) then she may be poisoning your recovery. Above all, do not try to push him into anything. Show him your usual loving self, and that you are willing to be patient.

MTD

Rachel,

I think you have gotten some good feedback, but it seems clear to me you are still a bit in the fog here. Some of the things you say seem very contradictory to me. I am going to post some of what you said and I want you to see if you can understand why I would find what you say contradictory. I realize you do not. That is the point. I do hope that eventually your perspective on a few things will change. I would strongly suggest that you reread the posts here.

You said <blockquote>quote:<hr />Q. I would also suggest that you ASSURE him that there is NO EXCUSE for adultery and that he is not to blame for your second contact.
A. I have talked with him about it and he knows I have no excuses and we are both to blame because I had an EN that he could not fullfill AT THAT TIME and I could not wait for it to be met. I am learning to deal with these needs.<hr /></blockquote>Rachel, your H has NO blame in you having an affair. It was entirely your choice,and he was NOT consulted. You two may share blame for the state of the marriage,but girl until you get that YOU had the A, and you made the decisions, twice, and you violated your vows to him, you don't have a chance of recovery, because you have no chance of learning how to protect your marriage or honoring your vows. I hate to be harsh, but you are lying to yourself here, and your H knows it.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />

Q. Now your job is to work on yourself. The issues that contributed to the A may still be there.
A. This is what I have been doing. As I said b4 if I work on me he will come around in time. But most people have a WS come back to them is that living togather? We do not and have agreed not to untill he and I are both ready for that mostly him though. I really wouldnt care if he moved in tomorrow with no strings attached he could have his own room and I would have mine but we know it would only hurt us right now. In a way that is a catch 22 to me you need to be together to get beyond a certain point but if you are apart it causes emotional distance. It allows each of us to have separate lives when we are supposed to be working on making a life together again.<hr /></blockquote>Your fear is correct, I feel. But, you tried the living together to recover last time and you answered the phone and your H was thrown out of the marriage again. You really have dug yourself a very deep hole. I am reminded of the advice given to me when I found myself in a hole. THe advice was to: PUT THE SHOVEL DOWN. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I think in someways you are still digging, and Melody's comment about the word "relapse" is dead on. You are not giving your H confidence with that choice of words. It suggests you have no control and no strength. I realize the relationship to addiction and it is used here a lot. BUT...quit digging.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />

Q. are you being honest with yourself about it
A. for the first time in a year and a half I am<hr /></blockquote>See comments above. I truely believe you think you are being honest, but you are still not grabbing hold of the responsibility for the A.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />

Q. I didn't hear anything in your post about whether this is the best for your H, only for you
A. This is what he has told me that he wants, he just wants his wife and kids back.<hr /></blockquote>Good grief Rachel. Your H gives you a gold plated map to his heart and you respond this is what he wants his W and kids back. Are you not hearing the rest? When he says back he doesn't mean just in the flesh, he means committed like he "thought" you were before the A. He wants a W that puts him first, and it is clear from your posts that is not the case is it? Rachel?? Do you think it is the case?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />

Q. Another possibility is he is seeing another woman.
A. There is no other woman. Friends of ours that he hangs out with a lot say that I am the only woman he wants. He did try once to have relations with another woman but it just caused him more pain.<hr /></blockquote>Don't worry that will change if you don't succeed in focusing on him and what he needs. I realize you say he doesn't know, but let's make some guesses and you tell me how I am going.

1. He wants to be married to a woman that he can trust.

2. He wants to be married to a woman that will stand by him when things are tough.

3. He wants a W that love him MORE than anyone else.

4. He wants to feel safe in his own home.

5. He wants to be happy.

How am I doing so far?? Now do you have some idea of what his needs might be? Now you do this and then tell us what you are doing and will do to see to it that they are met.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />

Q. Rachel you won't get nowhere until you start being totally open and honest with your H, and that includes telling him the things that you told us here but may have not told him for fear that it may make him withdraw further away from you. DO NOT HIDE ANYTHING FROM HIM, be an open book for him. If you make radical honesty a part of your life, his trust in you will follow.
A. I do this everyday! Its something new for me but with all the personal work I have been doing it comes easier to me than b4. I do worry that telling him somethings will push him away but it just draws him closer to me. I “got dramatic” as he calls it 2 nights ago on the phone with him. Told him all my feelings and thanked him for listening and for allowing me to “vent”. We both learned a lot in that conversaiton. It was wonderful to be able to talk to by bestfriend again.<hr /></blockquote>Now do you let him vent to you?? Have you really heard and felt his anger, and his pain? YOu see he is your friend, but I suspect he doesn't feel like you are truely his friend yet?? Does this make sense to you? You know you can trust him, he has been betrayed twice by you and he is still there, but he doesn't have a clue whether you would be there if the going go tough. Actually, he does and the answer is you would be gone.

Has he ever really vented to you and told you how he feels??
<blockquote>quote:<hr />

Thank you all for your responses I need input so badly right now. I knew I would get some harsh feedback when I posted and I know the truth hurts sometimes. Thank you for the Honesty! <hr /></blockquote>I do hope you realize that HARSH is not mean. We don't want to hurt you, but I suspect many of us feel that you really haven't "gotten it" yet. Your focus is on you, you implicitly state that you will have another affair if your H doesn't meet your needs, and then you wonder why he is not coming back so fast this time. You need to become far more sensitive to what you say and how he will hear it. Believe me when I tell you that he is very very sensitive to you, and he is listening, remembering, weighing, and assessing everything you say and do. So be honest, be open, and be aware that he has some big wounds to heal.

I hope something I have said is of help.

God Bless,

JL

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by rachelw81:

Q. Relapse" is a word usually applied to those with a physical disease, not a behaviorial CHOICE. Using it to define a CHOICE to commit adultery sounds like a weasel word to me and I would imagine it does to him too.
A. this is how our therapist refered to it because she believes that affairs are like drug addictions. I totally agree with her on this. And to define “relapse” it is the act or an instance of backsliding, worsening, or subsiding or a recurrence of symptoms of a disease after a period of improvement or to slip or fall back into a former worse state (merriam webster dictionary)<hr /></blockquote>But you don't have a "disease." You have a character problem that has resulted in destructive behavior. Cancer is a disease. A choice is not a disease.

Please tell your "counselor" that an 18 year veteran of AA, who has 18 years of continuous sobriety, told her to quit using weasel words that would be laughed out of an AA meeting. Save words like "relapse" for her patients who have cancer. You didn't have a "relapse" you went out and screwed around on your husband.

In the meantime, the use of the word "relapse" to describe your CHOICES can only serve to greatly alarm your husband and further erode his trust. If you insist on calling your affair a "disease" I don't blame him a bit for running. It just means you refuse to take accountability for your actions and means it could easily happen again in the future. When he hears words like that, he has every reason to be scared.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Q. I would also suggest that you ASSURE him that there is NO EXCUSE for adultery and that he is not to blame for your second contact.
A. I have talked with him about it and he knows I have no excuses and we are both to blame because I had an EN that he could not fullfill AT THAT TIME and I could not wait for it to be met. I am learning to deal with these needs.<hr /></blockquote>NADA. You are ONE HUNDRED PERCENT responsible for your choices. He obviously cannot be "partly to blame" for a choice he didn't make.

Rachel, please carefully read our posts here, especially JustLearnings. Your H is hearing the same thing we are hearing and it is very alarming. I hear the words of a fogged out person who is only concerned with herself and refuses to take full accountability for her actions. You are not safe to be around and your H realizes this.

[ November 06, 2003, 07:42 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]

If it were that easy Daisy yes I would I would totally humilate myself just for him to have whatever small minute amount of faith it would give him. But its not and I know that, as I said its an old inside joke he and I have. I am being very patient, I think. I don’t ask him for anything. I do invite him over and I had told him its ok if he declines my invitations but I will keep inviting him till he feels comfortable enough to come over. I have also given him the “open door” invatition that ANYTIME night or day he can come by. I am very commited to this and have been doing Imago for myself and told him when he is ready to “work” to let me know cause I am here. He said the other night that he felt pressured, so I appologized I had no idea I was pushing him to be around. I am trying to not push but also let him know that I am ready when he is. I send him emails telling him how much I love him and miss him and want him and how sorry I am. I send him instant messages all throughout the day to tell him im thinking of him and that I hope his day is going good.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> When you "relapsed" was it a one time thing or did it go on? If it went on for a while when did it end? <hr /></blockquote>First affair started in feb 2002 ended in oct 2002 try to recosile with H. Feb 2003 same OM through oct 2003 . A big part of my problem with the second A was pride. I had “fog mentality” told H it was over and I was filing for D. I knew the A was over in June but had too much pride to go back on my word. I don’t believe pride is one of my factors now, I have swallowed it. Ever try to swallow an apple whole? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> Now I know that this was all out of hurt and anger but i still said it. Neither one of are getting our EN met right now. I am giving all I know to give without being too pushy. I try to talk to him about feelings and needs but he seems to just put it on the back burner like he did in our marriage(one of the issues we had then too) I want to give him everything he wants, needs, desires, etc. but hes not there yet.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />your H has NO blame in you having an affair. <hr /></blockquote>I did not have the patience to wait and when OM told me all the things I had asked H for, I fell, and I know the A is my doing. I haver told H its all my fault and he always retorts no not ALL your fault. He has never been responsive to me or my feelings even way b4 the affair. He brushes everything off like it will just go away. <blockquote>quote:<hr /> Your fear is correct, I feel. But, you tried the living together to recover last time and you answered the phone and your H was thrown out of the marriage again. <hr /></blockquote>Last time we did not live together (havent lived together since april 02) BIG part of my problem at that time. I wanted him to be there so we could go further with our relationship but he said no. He was having to come out of his comfort zone and started withdrawing and so did I from my EN not being met. <blockquote>quote:<hr /> Good grief Rachel. Your H gives you a gold plated map to his heart and you respond this is what he wants his W and kids back. Are you not hearing the rest? When he says back he doesn't mean just in the flesh, he means committed like he "thought" you were before the A. He wants a W that puts him first, and it is clear from your posts that is not the case is it? Rachel?? Do you think it is the case?
<hr /></blockquote>As for him being 1st in my life next to God and our 2 sons he is first. Secondly H said it not me “I just want my wife and kids back that’s all” his words not mine. He is not good at expressing emotion wether its love, hurt, anger, you name it hes not good at showing it much less talking about it.
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I realize you say he doesn't know, but let's make some guesses and you tell me how I am going <hr /></blockquote>doesnt know what? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Now do you let him vent to you?? Have you really heard and felt his anger, and his pain? Has he ever really vented to you and told you how he feels??
<hr /></blockquote>OMG I beg him for it sometimes have been trying to get him to do it for many years now. See above about his openess about how he feels.
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Your focus is on you, you implicitly state that you will have another affair if your H doesn't meet your needs, and then you wonder why he is not coming back so fast this time <hr /></blockquote>I never said I would have another affair, I said that thats what happened last time and I am learning to accept not having my needs met. I would never do anything like that again it hurt my H, my kids, me, and OM total of 5 hurting because of one persons selfishness. I had my lawyer draw up a contract for my H stating that if I had any contact with OM in any way or ever had any kind of extramarital A's he would get full custody of our sons. It is legal and binding!

Rachel there are some folks here that scoff at the notion that an affair is an addiction, but I agree with Dr Willard Harley's pov regarding affairs. Here's an excerpt from 'Surviving An Affair' (page 56-57):

<blockquote>quote:<hr />"The Addictive Power Of An Affair.

Several years ago, I owned and operated ten chemical dependency treatment clinics. At first, we used several different treatment strategies. For some, we tried to encouraged moderation, and for others, we tried to achieve total abstinence. It wasn't long before all the counselors agreed that total abstinence was the only way to to save drug or alcohol addicts from their self-destructive behavior. Unless they completely abandoned the object of their addiction, the addiction usually returned. For these people, moderation, was impossible. The conviction that their drug of choice was off-limits to them for life helped end their cycle of addiction-treatment-addiction.

My strategy for ending an affair with total separation from the lover developed after my experience treating addicts. And, over the years, I've found my total-separation strategy to be very effective in ending affairs in a way that makes marital recovery possible. Without total separation, marital recovery is almost impossible.

An affair is a very powerful addiction. The craving to be with the lover can be so intense that objective reality doesn't have much of a chance. The fact that a spouse and children may be permanently injured by this cruel indulgence doesn't seem to matter. All that matters is spending more time with the lover. That makes it an addiction.

Even the one-night stand may be an addiction. It may not be an addiction to a particular lover, but it may still be an addiction to one-night stands. In affairs that have low emotional detachment, the addiction is often to the act of having sex itself, rather to a particular lover.

The addiction to one-night stands can also grow from a need to be continually assured of one's attractiveness. People who indulge in such practices want to feel that they can have anyone they want, even that person over ther sitting at the bar. These people who need constant reassurance of their attractiveness must learn some other way to gain that assurance - a way that does not destroy their marriage.

The analogy between chemical addiction and an affair is striking. In both cases, the first step toward recovery is admitting that the addiction is self-destructive and harmful to those whom the addict cares the most - his or her family. After recognizing the need to overcome the addiction, the next step is to suffer through the symptoms of withdrawal. Addicts are often admitted to a hospital or treatment program during the first weeks of withdrawal to ensure total separation from the addicting substance.

The way to overcome an addiction is tried and proven - abstain from the object of addiction. Alcoholics, for example, must completely avoid contact with any alcoholic beverage to gain control over their addictive behavior. They must avoid places where alcohol is likely to be found, such as bars and parties. They must even avoid friends who drink occasionally in their presence. They must surround themselves with an alcohol-free environment. In the same way, whe a wayward spouse separates from the lover, extraordinary precautions must be taken to avoid all contact with the lover - for life.

Of course, my advice is not easy to implement. Many people who have had an affair try but fail to make a drastic and decisive break with their lover. In the case of Sue and Jon, Sue managed to be separated from Greg for about a week but couldn't resist talking to h im. So her affair continued until it finally died a natural death, leaving pain and suffering in its wake."<hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Please tell your "counselor" that an 18 year veteran of AA, who has 18 years of continuous sobriety, told her to quit using weasel words that would be laughed out of an AA meeting. Save words like "relapse" for her patients who have cancer. You didn't have a "relapse" you went out and screwed around on your husband.
<hr /></blockquote>This was therapists words not mine I just thought she would know so it is the word I used. H has been in counceling since 1993 with the same person we went to together. This time we will have a different therapist. My suggestion because I didnt "buy into" all of her theorys and over all she didnt help US resolve anything only him. She is not a MC. If I ever see her again I will be more than happy to tell her. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> If you havent guessed I dont care for her much. She was also one of our marriage issues because H would talk to her and not me(b4 A). So from day one of therapy with her last year I had resentment towards her. As i said B4 I have told H and past therapist that I am at fault I did it no one else and they told me that we were both responsible partys to the things that led me to the A. They were the ones taking the responsibility away from me so i thought (and again I was wrong) that she was right, after all she went to school for this.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by rachelw81:
I just feel like I am at a loss because I keep giving love and get nothing not even an acknowledgement. How do I get him to let me back in his life and to come back into mine? He tells me that he doesn’t want a divorce and that he loves me but he needs time. How much time? <hr /></blockquote>You just ended your second affair less than a month ago? A lot more time would be my answer to your question. For the BS it is like starting from ground zero - actually, it's worse than ground zero if there is such a thing. You've convinced him that everything you have said and done during the last year is a blatant lie. Yeah, it's going to take a whole lot more time for him to get past this one.

 <blockquote>quote:<hr /> All the things I have read on the site talk about the BS persuing the WS after the A is over what about the WS that has to persue the BS? Anyone been through this? I need some help desperatly. <hr /></blockquote>Although my situation is different in that we never separated, my H pursued me more than I pursued him. I certainly acknowledged I could have done a better job meeting his needs, and I worked on doing that. But overall, he Plan A'd me much harder and better than I did him. I really could not see my way through to bending over backwards to pursue him - I wasn't the one who betrayed everything we had ever said to each other. So the idea of the WS being the pursuer makes much more sense to me than the other way around.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by T00MuchCoffeeMan:
[QB] Rachel there are some folks here that scoff at the notion that an affair is an addiction, but I agree with Dr Willard Harley's pov regarding affairs. Here's an excerpt from 'Surviving An Affair' (page 56-57):

<hr /></blockquote>[

TMCM,

I haven't seen anyone scoff at the notion that an affair is an addiction. [unless I missed something in my reading] As someone who has dealt with addictions first hand, I agree with Harley that it is often an addiction.

What I scoff at is the use of weasel words like "relapse" that is used to define a CHOSEN behavior as a disease. Adultery ain't a disease and using disease terminology to describe it only serves to remove the element of accountability. It makes people feel good, but accomplishes little else.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by rachelw81:
As i said B4 I have told H and past therapist that I am at fault I did it no one else and they told me that we were both responsible partys to the things that led me to the A. They were the ones taking the responsibility away from me so i thought (and again I was wrong) that she was right, after all she went to school for this. [/QB]<hr /></blockquote>Rachel, thanks for your clarification. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Maybe the old saying "once burned shame on you; twice burned shame on me" applies here. Think about it you had your first A. A WS's first A can sometimes be rationalized as a major mistake but the second A is premeditated. My W and I have talked about the A and our R so much that if she had another A or relapsed with the same OM it would be devastating. Harley states that recovery is always impacted by the circumstances. Circumstances such as number of A partners, length of A, amount of time before truth is revealed, how BS discovers A, etc etc all have impact.

Good luck to you. Sounds like you need to learn some patience.

I still believe that affairs are like drugs personally I think it would have been better if I was on coke than on him. The withdrawl was so painful the last time this time I dont miss him at all glad hes gone. I do see your point about the word relapse though I never argued that it wasnt my fault they did. But arent you drawing a fine line here? Isnt drinking and drug use a choosen behavior? What is it called if you "fall off the wagon" in AA?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Maybe the old saying "once burned shame on you; twice burned shame on me" applies here. Think about it you had your first A. A WS's first A can sometimes be rationalized as a major mistake but the second A is premeditated. My W and I have talked about the A and our R so much that if she had another A or relapsed with the same OM it would be devastating. Harley states that recovery is always impacted by the circumstances. Circumstances such as number of A partners, length of A, amount of time before truth is revealed, how BS discovers A, etc etc all have impact.

Good luck to you. Sounds like you need to learn some patience. <hr /></blockquote>My second A was in no way premeditated Om called and like a lonely desperate fool I answered he let me cry and told me how bad he felt for me and that he loved me even though i broke his heart. He told me he was comming over I said no I cant count how many times and then I finally gave in. This is one of my major issues I am working on if I feel guilty or that I am hurting you I will give in. H never told me how he felt so at that time it didnt seem to be an issue. I screwed up so bad and I know it and I have to life with knowing that I caused ALL of this. The next thing I knew Om was at my door and I was so vunerable and needed someone to comfort me and hold me and tell me it would be ok. I needed my husband to tell me I would survive and give me reassurance but he wasnt able to. I know how bad this all sounds but thats how I felt then. Both of my A's were with the same man 1st lasted 5 months then 2 month break then 2 months on again... 5 months working with H on marriage... oops back with OM for 9 months. H found out about 1st A by snooping and then we left hard evidence in truck....confronted me...denied then confessed he gave me 24 hours to move out. 2nd time he found out by driving up on us getting into my car at my apt.

We never talked about the affair or our relationship. H just wants to forget it. H does not want to talk about it. He didnt then either.

[ November 07, 2003, 01:24 AM: Message edited by: rachelw81 ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by rachelw81:
[QB] I still believe that affairs are like drugs personally I think it would have been better if I was on coke than on him. The withdrawl was so painful the last time this time I dont miss him at all glad hes gone. I do see your point about the word relapse though I never argued that it wasnt my fault they did. But arent you drawing a fine line here? Isnt drinking and drug use a choosen behavior? What is it called if you "fall off the wagon" in AA?

]<hr /></blockquote>We call it "GETTING DRUNK." Alcoholism is a physical addiction that is likened by some as a "disease." It is caused by chosen behavior. Adultery isn't a disease nor is it physical addiction.

Rachel,

There is one thing you are going to need to clarify in your mind and if you can do this it will prevent you repeating the same mistake.

You have to figure out why A`s are bad for YOU, not your H and not for your M but bad for YOU.

How and why have they hurt YOU?

Once you can understand why they are so self destructive you are going to be able to set up a defense system.

Have you figured out why A`s are bad for YOU?

Human being are all inherently selfish creatures. Every last one of us, BS`s included. You need to understand why remaining faithful is in your own best self interest.

You have alot of work to do on yourself and unless and until you do your H is going to remain wary. As I said before there is no quick fix here. It`s going to take some serious introspection and alot of hard work. There are some things that need to change once and for all. Your H knows this. He will need to see the changes. The changes will need to be permanent.

You can do this but you need to concetrate on working on your own issues. Once you get those ironed out then your marriage can recover.

Do not do this for your H and do not do this for your M. Do it for YOU <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

This is why running naked down the middle of the freeway will not fix this. Specific actions of any kind are not going repair the problems. The work must be done internally/emotionally. Your H knows this and that`s why he cannot give you any quick fix solution ideas. There is nothing you can "do" per say. You must learn new ways of thinking and coping.

[ November 07, 2003, 10:35 AM: Message edited by: Daisy37 ]

Cleo,

I was going to copy a few of your comments here and then reply, but I think that may not be as helpful as I would like. So it occured to me it is time to review the bidding here (to use a bridge phrase).

Let see if I have a few facts straight and please correct me if I am wrong.

1. Your last A has only been over for about a month?

2. You and H have lived apart for over a year and 1/2 right?

3. You seem to need male validation, but your H doesn't seem to need your validation of him, right?

4. Your H is not a "talker" and seems to be pretty reserved in his emotional dealings.

I know there are MORE facts, but let me see what I can do with these. First and foremost you need a PLAN. I strongly recommend that you do some reading. I would like to suggest Surviving an Affair by Harley. There are a few other books that are supposed to be good, but since I have not read them I cannot recommend them. Hopefully others can.

Next part of the plan is to go to counseling, right?

AND THEN WHAT???

Here is the hard part isn't it, the AND THEN WHAT?

You want your H around. I am not trying to be tacky here, but you have had a man in your life constantly for many years, it may or may not have been your H. But, you left H for another man, and you did it twice for long periods of time.

Your H on the other hand, has lived by himself for 1.5 years while still married. I will presume he has honored his vows. That means he is used to being with himself, he is comfortable with himself as company, and most IMPORTANTLY to you, HE DOES NOT NEED YOU. He may have when you left to be with OM, but he has learned to NOT NEED YOU.

So that leaves a problem and probably another part of the plan. You actually mentioned he was your best friend, but you have not been his, and he doesn't need you in his life.

So, let's look at this for a moment. It has been slightly over a month since this installment of your A has concluded, so he is very distrustful. You can understand that right?? He may still love you, but his self-preservation instincts are strong.

Cleo, don't you see that your anxiousness about him coming back is not warrented. It is far too soon for him to come back. You are not even his friend right now, just the mother of his children. So you need to work on being his friend. I am thinking this will take at least 6 months, perhaps longer, maybe shorter. But, it seems to me what you have to address is your inability to live alone without having a lover in your life. You need to learn to be comfortable in your OWN skin. I would make that part of any plan I was party to.

Next, there is the issue of his love for you. Actually, this is probably the easiest. I would bet good money he does love you or he would be gone. He loves you deeply, and he may have not said it, but he has shown it by still being married to you. You need to really understand this.

He may NOT seem romantic or deeply in love with you, but you need to step out of your body and think about what he has gone through for the last year and a half, and realize only someone deeply committed and in love would endure the pain. You need to see things from other peoples point of view and your H is a good starting point.

The bigger hurdle will be trust and HIS FEAR. Trust me on one thing, you won't be dealing with just his fear of you, you will be dealing with his FEAR of failing again. Most BS's feel as if they failed. They KNOW they failed, and it is hard for them to get enough confidence in themselves to take a risk. Which leads to you helping him by being honest, learning about why you had the A, what your baggage is from before the marriage, and address what happened in the marriage.

As you do these things, his need for you will increase as you become a more constant part of his life via your friendship, via your openness, and via your caring about HIS feelings and fears. You need for him to feel that you ADD something to his life he cannot get elsewhere, but that he is safe in allowing himself to need you.

Then comes the real rebuilding of the marriage. You are now friends with him. He has become a part of your life. He may have some level of trust, and now the reasons the marriage was not good for you and him must be addressed. It seems to me here is where the A is instructional but not the prime focus.

Now, I laid something out for you. I did not do this to imply that you should take it run with it or even believe it. Rather, I did it to show you how you should be planning this recovery. If you look closely you will realize that we are talking in the time frame of a year or two, not a month or two.

So I really have two major pieces of advice for you.

1. Develop a plan via your reading and counseling, and by talking with your H.

2. Realize that this is going to take a lot of patience on your part and a lot of time on both of your parts. The old T&P. Whenever you are getting frustrated just say to yourself: "T&P, T&P,..."

Cleo, I know you want to make it all better, and then move on to having a good and happy life with your H. You can do this, but it will take time and work.

Oh! One last thing. The word "work". You used it, I have used it, most people here have used it, but it doesn't make the future look that good if you have to "work" at a relationship. My feeling is that you need to make sure that your H is NOT WORKING when he is with you. Yes you need to talk about things, but time around you should be something he learns to enjoy and look forward to. Yes, you are "working" on your relationship, but I think you need to use a better word with him: improve, develop, grow, nuture, even enjoy,...

You commented that Melody was sort of particular with her choice of words. You clearly notice that I am being as well. Let me tell you why. A BS who is even thinking about rebuilding their marriage, is going to be HYPER Vigilant about everything you do, say, imply, etc. They are sensitive to you like you would not believe, and WORDS have enormous power. You should know that. Your OM says a few of the right words and you do what you KNOW you shouldn't be doing. Your H doesn't say words you want to hear,and he is gone from your life for 1.5 years and perhaps forever.

Pay attention to your words and how you use them. When you talk to him on the phone, smile. Do this experiment with him or even a friend, and talk to them when you are smiling or when you are not. They will hear the difference in your voice.

Cleo, your focus has been inward for a long time. What Melody, Coffeeman, and many others here are trying to tell you is that you need to focus outward toward your H. You need to realize the power you have, and the power of what you say and do has on your H, your kids, your friends, everyone. Paying attention to precisely what you say, it is the beginning of you rejoining the world of real relationships and your marriage.

If you want to, ask your H what he thinks you mean when you phrase the same message differently. Belive me he is hearing you through a filter and that filter is there to protect him from you.

Please think about these things.

God Bless,

JL

-----

[ November 08, 2003, 09:52 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]

Rachel have you read any of the Harley books such as 'Surviving An Affair', 'His Needs Her Needs', and 'Love Busters'? If you haven't, then I highly recommend that you do. I also recommend that you read Dave Carder's 'Torn Asunder' which complements Harley's 'Surviving An Affair'. In the meantime I suggest that you read the articles here on this website, especially The Four Rules For A Succesful Marriage . Take special notice of The Rule Of Time which is the one that you and your H did not follow, and paid a heavy price by becoming nothing more than glorified babysitters to everybody else. Make it your number one priority to spend as much time as possible with your H, ALONE with him. Ask him out on a date where nothing relating to the marriage or your affair will be discussed, and just have a great time together (to deposit some badly needed love units in his love bank). The point is to never again put everybody else's needs ahead of yours, including your children's. On the surface it may seem selfish, but many studies have shown that child centered marriages are much more susceptible to affairs and divorces. The old marriage is dead (good riddance) and now the two of you have an opportunity to build a new, much happier and healthier one, but that won't happen until you two make the committment to make each other come first.

I have a short comment. Why do WS never worry about the risk of losing all at that time of A? Their choice!
Then why do they expect BS to make some grand overtures as though it's their place to beg and grovel over the WS?
WS's obviouly don't get it that their actions said, "I don't want you anymore. You are not worthy of me, I don't love you so I'm not concerned about your feelings at all."
When the WS understands their own actions, then they need to start changing themselves before working on the BS.
LouLou

Its been awhile since I was on here but I wanted to thank ALL of you for your advise and guidance even if at first it hurt me to hear it. I have learned a lot from the post you all have made and have taken them all to heart and started realizing the things I was still doing to damage my and H recovery.

Just learning, I assume the post you made to Cleo is for me. It is probably the one that hit me the hardest through this whole thread! Its been over a week since you posted it and I read it and I still think about the things you have asked and pointed out to me. <blockquote>quote:<hr /> Let see if I have a few facts straight and please correct me if I am wrong.

1. Your last A has only been over for about a month?

2. You and H have lived apart for over a year and 1/2 right?

3. You seem to need male validation, but your H doesn't seem to need your validation of him, right?

4. Your H is not a "talker" and seems to be pretty reserved in his emotional dealings.
<hr /></blockquote>answer to all is yes
but this is what really made me think
<blockquote>quote:<hr />
Next part of the plan is to go to counseling, right?

AND THEN WHAT???

Here is the hard part isn't it, the AND THEN WHAT?
<hr /></blockquote>I thought about that everyday! Then what? I dont know.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> don't you see that your anxiousness about him coming back is not warrented. It is far too soon for him to come back. <hr /></blockquote>I was very anxious about him comming AROUND not comming back. I just wanted him to be around to come over a few times a week.
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> He may NOT seem romantic or deeply in love with you, but you need to step out of your body and think about what he has gone through for the last year and a half, and realize only someone deeply committed and in love would endure the pain. You need to see things from other peoples point of view and your H is a good starting point.
<hr /></blockquote>I have been doing this too or trying to anyway. It hurts so bad to know what I have done to him and to know that he loves me so much that he still wants me even after what i have done to him. I never knew the love this man had for me untill recently. He never even asked me to marry him, he doesnt REALLY love me used to be one of the biggest ways i justified what I was doing.

Well in the last week or so I have stepped back and looked at things totally differently that I did b4 I started posting here. May sound like a line but I have really been able to feel some of his pain and see better how he feels. We went on a date friday night just a movie and after that we had a small dinner at IHOP. Nothing fancy but it was so wonderful we started reconnecting as adults rather than as parents if that makes sense. Keep in mind that we have had NO physical contact whatsoever not even an accidental brush against each other. We have never really
"talked" a lot about feelings or wants or needs and some of this happened at dinner. It wasnt a lot but it was something it was a baby step in the right direction. Saturday night he had the kids (his weekend) and we chatted on the computer for over 3 hours! After I backed off and stopped pushing for him to love me again he started comming around more to meet my needs. Durring our 3 hour chat session we talked about all kinds of things that we would normally never be able to talk about face to face. I wish i could just post it so yall could see.I feel like I have changed my ways of thinking 180 degrees in the last week. Is that possible? I am telling him it will take time rather than him telling me. How weird is that? lol I have made it very clear to him that anytime day or night if he needs or wants to talk or come over he can. I am trying to keep the door open for him so he knows he can move at his own pace. Whenever hes ready to take the next step I am too. Saturday the thread that joined our hearts turned into a huge chain. I have been craving him like I did when we first started dating. I have yet to tell him that because I realized it last night. He came over last night and hung out with us watched some football and then the kids watched a movie. We didnt really talk much but it was much more comfortable than before. AND he touched me nothing big but as he was walking by me to go to the bathroom he squeezed my shoulder!! WOOHOO!!! The less I try to pull him to me the faster and closer he gets there. Well I better close for now and go play with the kids for awhile I just wanted to thank you all and give you an update.

OH and BTW I havent been able to buy any of the books as of yet haveto have $ first lol But I do plan to go tomorrow to the half priced book store and get a few.

Rachel,

Yes, the post was for you. He touched your shoulder on the way to the bathroom and you felt...? Don't you see romance is in the eye of the beholder, but the beholder can change what they see. As you change you will see much more about your H, and doubt you could construct a "romance" where a man hangs in there for all of that time and still loves you despite your affairs. If that isn't romantic, what would be? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I am glad you are seeing things differently. And as you do, and as you start to speak of what you see differently, he will respond. I don't know if all of the damage can be undone, but you are finding out that he does "respond" to you and your actions. If they seem selfish, he pulls away. If they seem kind and generous, he comes toward you.

So keep up the good work, for there is a lot left to do, but you have made a good start.

God Bless,

JL

I felt joy, love, forgiveness, acceptance, excitment, compassion, arousal, I cant think of all the words to describe how i felt. I think I have admited in previous posts that my ideas of affection and romance were not any where near his idea of them. I have accepted the fact that life cant be a fairy tale everyone sees things differently. Thank you JL.

Hi folks. As you may know before this awful A <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> , I also faught a battle against drug addiction in my son. So I think I know a bit about comparing infidelity with a drug addiction.

When a close family member goes into inpatient care for the addiction, the family members are usually required to take a number of classes to help them understand the addiction and how to help the addict. During those classes one thing I learned is that there is a physiological condition that makes some people more prone to addiction. That is why some of us can have a martini at lunch, a glass of wine for dinner and not become dependent on the alchohol. Others, because of the way their brains are wired (my words) become addicts if they consume alchohol and other drugs.

Scientists do not understand all of this but they are learning. Drug addiction is definetly a physical disease.

I know of NO SIMILAR SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE that can be used to label an A as an addiction. Assuming there is no mental illness, I do not think that people who have affairs are addicts. However, many of their behaviors are certainly similar to those of addicts. But, then so are many of my behaviors related to chocolate. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />