</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by rachelw81:
[QB] I still believe that affairs are like drugs personally I think it would have been better if I was on coke than on him. The withdrawl was so painful the last time this time I dont miss him at all glad hes gone. I do see your point about the word relapse though I never argued that it wasnt my fault they did. But arent you drawing a fine line here? Isnt drinking and drug use a choosen behavior? What is it called if you "fall off the wagon" in AA?

]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We call it "GETTING DRUNK." Alcoholism is a physical addiction that is likened by some as a "disease." It is caused by chosen behavior. Adultery isn't a disease nor is it physical addiction.

Rachel,

There is one thing you are going to need to clarify in your mind and if you can do this it will prevent you repeating the same mistake.

You have to figure out why A`s are bad for YOU, not your H and not for your M but bad for YOU.

How and why have they hurt YOU?

Once you can understand why they are so self destructive you are going to be able to set up a defense system.

Have you figured out why A`s are bad for YOU?

Human being are all inherently selfish creatures. Every last one of us, BS`s included. You need to understand why remaining faithful is in your own best self interest.

You have alot of work to do on yourself and unless and until you do your H is going to remain wary. As I said before there is no quick fix here. It`s going to take some serious introspection and alot of hard work. There are some things that need to change once and for all. Your H knows this. He will need to see the changes. The changes will need to be permanent.

You can do this but you need to concetrate on working on your own issues. Once you get those ironed out then your marriage can recover.

Do not do this for your H and do not do this for your M. Do it for YOU <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

This is why running naked down the middle of the freeway will not fix this. Specific actions of any kind are not going repair the problems. The work must be done internally/emotionally. Your H knows this and that`s why he cannot give you any quick fix solution ideas. There is nothing you can "do" per say. You must learn new ways of thinking and coping.

<small>[ November 07, 2003, 10:35 AM: Message edited by: Daisy37 ]</small>

Cleo,

I was going to copy a few of your comments here and then reply, but I think that may not be as helpful as I would like. So it occured to me it is time to review the bidding here (to use a bridge phrase).

Let see if I have a few facts straight and please correct me if I am wrong.

1. Your last A has only been over for about a month?

2. You and H have lived apart for over a year and 1/2 right?

3. You seem to need male validation, but your H doesn't seem to need your validation of him, right?

4. Your H is not a "talker" and seems to be pretty reserved in his emotional dealings.

I know there are MORE facts, but let me see what I can do with these. First and foremost you need a PLAN. I strongly recommend that you do some reading. I would like to suggest Surviving an Affair by Harley. There are a few other books that are supposed to be good, but since I have not read them I cannot recommend them. Hopefully others can.

Next part of the plan is to go to counseling, right?

AND THEN WHAT???

Here is the hard part isn't it, the AND THEN WHAT?

You want your H around. I am not trying to be tacky here, but you have had a man in your life constantly for many years, it may or may not have been your H. But, you left H for another man, and you did it twice for long periods of time.

Your H on the other hand, has lived by himself for 1.5 years while still married. I will presume he has honored his vows. That means he is used to being with himself, he is comfortable with himself as company, and most IMPORTANTLY to you, HE DOES NOT NEED YOU. He may have when you left to be with OM, but he has learned to NOT NEED YOU.

So that leaves a problem and probably another part of the plan. You actually mentioned he was your best friend, but you have not been his, and he doesn't need you in his life.

So, let's look at this for a moment. It has been slightly over a month since this installment of your A has concluded, so he is very distrustful. You can understand that right?? He may still love you, but his self-preservation instincts are strong.

Cleo, don't you see that your anxiousness about him coming back is not warrented. It is far too soon for him to come back. You are not even his friend right now, just the mother of his children. So you need to work on being his friend. I am thinking this will take at least 6 months, perhaps longer, maybe shorter. But, it seems to me what you have to address is your inability to live alone without having a lover in your life. You need to learn to be comfortable in your OWN skin. I would make that part of any plan I was party to.

Next, there is the issue of his love for you. Actually, this is probably the easiest. I would bet good money he does love you or he would be gone. He loves you deeply, and he may have not said it, but he has shown it by still being married to you. You need to really understand this.

He may NOT seem romantic or deeply in love with you, but you need to step out of your body and think about what he has gone through for the last year and a half, and realize only someone deeply committed and in love would endure the pain. You need to see things from other peoples point of view and your H is a good starting point.

The bigger hurdle will be trust and HIS FEAR. Trust me on one thing, you won't be dealing with just his fear of you, you will be dealing with his FEAR of failing again. Most BS's feel as if they failed. They KNOW they failed, and it is hard for them to get enough confidence in themselves to take a risk. Which leads to you helping him by being honest, learning about why you had the A, what your baggage is from before the marriage, and address what happened in the marriage.

As you do these things, his need for you will increase as you become a more constant part of his life via your friendship, via your openness, and via your caring about HIS feelings and fears. You need for him to feel that you ADD something to his life he cannot get elsewhere, but that he is safe in allowing himself to need you.


Then comes the real rebuilding of the marriage. You are now friends with him. He has become a part of your life. He may have some level of trust, and now the reasons the marriage was not good for you and him must be addressed. It seems to me here is where the A is instructional but not the prime focus.

Now, I laid something out for you. I did not do this to imply that you should take it run with it or even believe it. Rather, I did it to show you how you should be planning this recovery. If you look closely you will realize that we are talking in the time frame of a year or two, not a month or two.

So I really have two major pieces of advice for you.

1. Develop a plan via your reading and counseling, and by talking with your H.

2. Realize that this is going to take a lot of patience on your part and a lot of time on both of your parts. The old T&P. Whenever you are getting frustrated just say to yourself: "T&P, T&P,..."

Cleo, I know you want to make it all better, and then move on to having a good and happy life with your H. You can do this, but it will take time and work.

Oh! One last thing. The word "work". You used it, I have used it, most people here have used it, but it doesn't make the future look that good if you have to "work" at a relationship. My feeling is that you need to make sure that your H is NOT WORKING when he is with you. Yes you need to talk about things, but time around you should be something he learns to enjoy and look forward to. Yes, you are "working" on your relationship, but I think you need to use a better word with him: improve, develop, grow, nuture, even enjoy,...

You commented that Melody was sort of particular with her choice of words. You clearly notice that I am being as well. Let me tell you why. A BS who is even thinking about rebuilding their marriage, is going to be HYPER Vigilant about everything you do, say, imply, etc. They are sensitive to you like you would not believe, and WORDS have enormous power. You should know that. Your OM says a few of the right words and you do what you KNOW you shouldn't be doing. Your H doesn't say words you want to hear,and he is gone from your life for 1.5 years and perhaps forever.

Pay attention to your words and how you use them. When you talk to him on the phone, smile. Do this experiment with him or even a friend, and talk to them when you are smiling or when you are not. They will hear the difference in your voice.

Cleo, your focus has been inward for a long time. What Melody, Coffeeman, and many others here are trying to tell you is that you need to focus outward toward your H. You need to realize the power you have, and the power of what you say and do has on your H, your kids, your friends, everyone. Paying attention to precisely what you say, it is the beginning of you rejoining the world of real relationships and your marriage.

If you want to, ask your H what he thinks you mean when you phrase the same message differently. Belive me he is hearing you through a filter and that filter is there to protect him from you.

Please think about these things.

God Bless,

JL

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<small>[ November 08, 2003, 09:52 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

Rachel have you read any of the Harley books such as 'Surviving An Affair', 'His Needs Her Needs', and 'Love Busters'? If you haven't, then I highly recommend that you do. I also recommend that you read Dave Carder's 'Torn Asunder' which complements Harley's 'Surviving An Affair'. In the meantime I suggest that you read the articles here on this website, especially The Four Rules For A Succesful Marriage . Take special notice of The Rule Of Time which is the one that you and your H did not follow, and paid a heavy price by becoming nothing more than glorified babysitters to everybody else. Make it your number one priority to spend as much time as possible with your H, ALONE with him. Ask him out on a date where nothing relating to the marriage or your affair will be discussed, and just have a great time together (to deposit some badly needed love units in his love bank). The point is to never again put everybody else's needs ahead of yours, including your children's. On the surface it may seem selfish, but many studies have shown that child centered marriages are much more susceptible to affairs and divorces. The old marriage is dead (good riddance) and now the two of you have an opportunity to build a new, much happier and healthier one, but that won't happen until you two make the committment to make each other come first.

I have a short comment. Why do WS never worry about the risk of losing all at that time of A? Their choice!
Then why do they expect BS to make some grand overtures as though it's their place to beg and grovel over the WS?
WS's obviouly don't get it that their actions said, "I don't want you anymore. You are not worthy of me, I don't love you so I'm not concerned about your feelings at all."
When the WS understands their own actions, then they need to start changing themselves before working on the BS.
LouLou

Its been awhile since I was on here but I wanted to thank ALL of you for your advise and guidance even if at first it hurt me to hear it. I have learned a lot from the post you all have made and have taken them all to heart and started realizing the things I was still doing to damage my and H recovery.

Just learning, I assume the post you made to Cleo is for me. It is probably the one that hit me the hardest through this whole thread! Its been over a week since you posted it and I read it and I still think about the things you have asked and pointed out to me. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Let see if I have a few facts straight and please correct me if I am wrong.

1. Your last A has only been over for about a month?

2. You and H have lived apart for over a year and 1/2 right?

3. You seem to need male validation, but your H doesn't seem to need your validation of him, right?

4. Your H is not a "talker" and seems to be pretty reserved in his emotional dealings.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">answer to all is yes
but this is what really made me think
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Next part of the plan is to go to counseling, right?

AND THEN WHAT???

Here is the hard part isn't it, the AND THEN WHAT?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I thought about that everyday! Then what? I dont know.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> don't you see that your anxiousness about him coming back is not warrented. It is far too soon for him to come back. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was very anxious about him comming AROUND not comming back. I just wanted him to be around to come over a few times a week.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He may NOT seem romantic or deeply in love with you, but you need to step out of your body and think about what he has gone through for the last year and a half, and realize only someone deeply committed and in love would endure the pain. You need to see things from other peoples point of view and your H is a good starting point.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have been doing this too or trying to anyway. It hurts so bad to know what I have done to him and to know that he loves me so much that he still wants me even after what i have done to him. I never knew the love this man had for me untill recently. He never even asked me to marry him, he doesnt REALLY love me used to be one of the biggest ways i justified what I was doing.

Well in the last week or so I have stepped back and looked at things totally differently that I did b4 I started posting here. May sound like a line but I have really been able to feel some of his pain and see better how he feels. We went on a date friday night just a movie and after that we had a small dinner at IHOP. Nothing fancy but it was so wonderful we started reconnecting as adults rather than as parents if that makes sense. Keep in mind that we have had NO physical contact whatsoever not even an accidental brush against each other. We have never really
"talked" a lot about feelings or wants or needs and some of this happened at dinner. It wasnt a lot but it was something it was a baby step in the right direction. Saturday night he had the kids (his weekend) and we chatted on the computer for over 3 hours! After I backed off and stopped pushing for him to love me again he started comming around more to meet my needs. Durring our 3 hour chat session we talked about all kinds of things that we would normally never be able to talk about face to face. I wish i could just post it so yall could see.I feel like I have changed my ways of thinking 180 degrees in the last week. Is that possible? I am telling him it will take time rather than him telling me. How weird is that? lol I have made it very clear to him that anytime day or night if he needs or wants to talk or come over he can. I am trying to keep the door open for him so he knows he can move at his own pace. Whenever hes ready to take the next step I am too. Saturday the thread that joined our hearts turned into a huge chain. I have been craving him like I did when we first started dating. I have yet to tell him that because I realized it last night. He came over last night and hung out with us watched some football and then the kids watched a movie. We didnt really talk much but it was much more comfortable than before. AND he touched me nothing big but as he was walking by me to go to the bathroom he squeezed my shoulder!! WOOHOO!!! The less I try to pull him to me the faster and closer he gets there. Well I better close for now and go play with the kids for awhile I just wanted to thank you all and give you an update.

OH and BTW I havent been able to buy any of the books as of yet haveto have $ first lol But I do plan to go tomorrow to the half priced book store and get a few.

Rachel,

Yes, the post was for you. He touched your shoulder on the way to the bathroom and you felt...? Don't you see romance is in the eye of the beholder, but the beholder can change what they see. As you change you will see much more about your H, and doubt you could construct a "romance" where a man hangs in there for all of that time and still loves you despite your affairs. If that isn't romantic, what would be? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I am glad you are seeing things differently. And as you do, and as you start to speak of what you see differently, he will respond. I don't know if all of the damage can be undone, but you are finding out that he does "respond" to you and your actions. If they seem selfish, he pulls away. If they seem kind and generous, he comes toward you.

So keep up the good work, for there is a lot left to do, but you have made a good start.

God Bless,

JL

I felt joy, love, forgiveness, acceptance, excitment, compassion, arousal, I cant think of all the words to describe how i felt. I think I have admited in previous posts that my ideas of affection and romance were not any where near his idea of them. I have accepted the fact that life cant be a fairy tale everyone sees things differently. Thank you JL.

Hi folks. As you may know before this awful A <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> , I also faught a battle against drug addiction in my son. So I think I know a bit about comparing infidelity with a drug addiction.

When a close family member goes into inpatient care for the addiction, the family members are usually required to take a number of classes to help them understand the addiction and how to help the addict. During those classes one thing I learned is that there is a physiological condition that makes some people more prone to addiction. That is why some of us can have a martini at lunch, a glass of wine for dinner and not become dependent on the alchohol. Others, because of the way their brains are wired (my words) become addicts if they consume alchohol and other drugs.

Scientists do not understand all of this but they are learning. Drug addiction is definetly a physical disease.

I know of NO SIMILAR SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE that can be used to label an A as an addiction. Assuming there is no mental illness, I do not think that people who have affairs are addicts. However, many of their behaviors are certainly similar to those of addicts. But, then so are many of my behaviors related to chocolate. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />