I can't confess, so where does that leave me?

Marriage Builders

I suppose the topic line says it all. JL, I know you must be disappointed after all the posting you did for me.

Are there any other WS around here whose S does not know about the A(s)? Have you been able to make progress in the marriage without telling? Have you been able to personally come to terms with everything? Do you have any advice for me?

I know there are plenty of you that will want to tell me why I should tell. I know your reasons are valid and your motives for telling me those reasons are good ones, to help. There is no reason for you to take the time to convince me, I do not want to waste anyone's time or energy. You all have enough to deal with. But if there is anyone out there that is choosing the same route I am choosing, to take it to my grave, I would love to hear from you.

Here is where I am at right now (at age 40, H is 43). I want to stay married. I want to satisfy my H's needs. I want to consistently not do any LBs. I want him to be a happy, fufilled person. I want my kids to have a stable happy environment to grow up in (they are 9yr boy, 14yr girl). I want all those same things for me.

Here is where the marriage (of 17.5 yrs) is right now. OK, I guess that is my problem. I don't know if I can really answer that question.

Seems silly to post this now, but since I have been trying to figure out what to post since I came back from vacation on tuesday, I'm just going to put this out there anyway.

It's hard for you all to answer my request for "Help!!" when I cannot even figure out what I need help with. All I know is I feel sad, sad that this marriage was so bad for so long, sad that i got to a point where all i wanted was out, sad that I stayed that way for over 2yrs, doing things that i don't know how to recover from now.

[ February 19, 2004, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: FinallyLearning ]

I guess it leaves you with a very large heavy secret sitting upon your heart for the rest of your life.

I guess it leaves you constantly needing to look behind you, making sure you don't accidently uncover any protective lies.

I guess it leaves you in a marriage where you have to hide who you are from the one person who is supposed to love you for who you are.

Do the best you can with this, I guess.

Pep

FL,

So I guess the question is what have you Finally Learned? How is what you feel squaring with what you want in your life? Do you have a plan to get your relationship with your H to a place that you both enjoy it?

I know you are making a big mistake. It is my hope that it is NOT fatal to your marriage. The real problem is how are you going to get your H to work on the marriage when he doesn't know what has happened?

You said a few things that I thought I would respond to <blockquote>quote:<hr />Here is where the marriage (of 17.5 yrs) is right now. OK, I guess that is my problem. I don't know if I can really answer that question.<hr /></blockquote>Why can't you answer it? Did you enjoy your vacation with your H and the kids? Did you have troubles reconnecting with H? What is causing your inability to answer that question? Why not ask your H the same question? Tell him you HONESTLY want to know what he feels because you would like to make the marriage better for him. In another words, make it worth his while to provide you information.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Seems silly to post this now, but since I have been trying to figure out what to post since I came back from vacation on tuesday, I'm just going to put this out there anyway.<hr /></blockquote>So why not post your plan for recovering you marriage?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />It's hard for you all to answer my request for "Help!!" when I cannot even figure out what I need help with. All I know is I feel sad, sad that this marriage was so bad for so long, sad that i got to a point where all i wanted was out, sad that I stayed that way for over 2yrs, doing things that i don't know how to recover from now. <hr /></blockquote>What things don't you know how to recover from? Has it crossed your mind that if you were sad your H was too? He very likely pulled away to avoid your sadness, but it is very unlikely that he was happy if you were NOT happy.

You know the old saying: <blockquote>quote:<hr /> If Mama ain't happy, ain't NOBODY happy. <hr /></blockquote>It is such a waste that you lost two years fooling around and being sad when things could have been address, but they need to be addressed now. So I ask again what is your plan?

How are you going to get H involved in your plan? How are you going to improve communications with H?
What are his strengths?
What does he value?
What do you think his goals are?

Figure these things out and then you might be able to put together a plan. I have been containing myself pretty well don't you think? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I have NOT said that you should be honest with him so that he knows what he is up against, have I?

Must go, but start to think about a plan.

God Bless,

JL

jl, i just spent almost 2hrs trying to post. i just cannot get it down without it being a novel. i cannot sort this out. kids are waking up for school now, i have to get to making breakfast.

the vacation was nice. everything is fine. i was a bit emotional when we first got back in town, probably just not enough sleep.

I am in therapy right now for my infidelity. My W and I have separated too. When she found out about what I did, I was completely honest. My W told me the other day, "I wish you had lied to me the night I found out". Go figure. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

My psychologist told me that (and this shocked me at first, being a very open and honest person) sometimes, honesty can be selfish. I guess his thinking is that YOU would experience a great sense of relief just "getting that off your back". But - what you are doing is throwing it onto your H's back. And now he bears the brunt of the pain, hurt, anger, despair and all that... Which, when I thought about it, IS very selfish behavior, and I guess that's why my W wished I had lied about my transgression instead of "coming clean". Is it worth it to clear your conscience at the expense of your H's? Isn't that what you're struggling with? I know Harley would disagree with my take (and my therapist's), but sometimes I think Harley's world is just too perfect for the "real world". That's not to say I don't agree with his core marriage concepts, because I do agree. But I've come to see that honesty and openness - about PAST incidents - can be "overrated", I suppose you could say.

What I would do, is from this point forward in your life, be as open and honest as possible with your H, but I would not reveal past, damaging incidents to him. If you're truly ready to turn over a new leaf and improve your marriage, then you DO need to start following the MB concept on H&O today and every day from here on out.

JMHO. Best wishes.

[ February 20, 2004, 08:15 AM: Message edited by: asb3pe ]

FL -

I am new here, but I have followed your story for a while now. I was so hopeful that you had come to a decision, and I had such confidence that you were doing the right thing, for the right reasons.

As a BS, I can only tell you that your behavior is probably confusing the heck out of your H. He may even think your behavior towards him and in general are his fault. Before my WH told me about his A, I knew. I knew something was wrong! I don't think you can be with someone for that long and not be able to tell when something has shifted in the R.

Please find your courage again. Read your old posts and try and get your head back where it was before your vacation. I implore you, on behalf of your H. You are cheating you both out of happiness. Do NOT underestimate your H and his feelings for you. It seems to me that is what you are doing. You have already taken so many decisions out of his hands. He has rights, too.

I am not trying to guilt you. I am sorry. I know it takes so much to tell, when you feel there is so much to lose. I just think your perspective is off on what you are losing. Does that make sense? Listen to these learned people! They are wise. Follow and trust them, when you are in such turmoil and doubt.

Sometimes it is hard to see the forest for the trees, and my impression is that that is where you are. Stuck in the trees.

Love, Amy

ASB,
I understand that you believe that this will work. I am very concerned that you are giving the advice to use MB principals and be honest "from this point on"... that is not honesty, it is concealing the truth and trying to rebuild a marriage based on lies. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Finally learning had made it clear that she is not MB principals are just being tossed out the window here and I will not (as she requested) try to convince her otherwise.

Yeah, I admit to being a bit confused myself. When my W is telling me she "wishes I had lied" to her, and when my therapist is telling me that "we all carry secrets to the grave", and "honesty can be selfish"...

Perhaps I need a new therapist. Again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Perhaps I need a new W too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I'm sorry if I've added to the confusion for you, FinallyLearning...

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by FinallyLearning:


Here is where I am at right now (at age 40, H is 43). I want to stay married. I want to satisfy my H's needs. I want to consistently not do any LBs. I want him to be a happy, fufilled person. I want my kids to have a stable happy environment to grow up in (they are 9yr boy, 14yr girl). I want all those same things for me.

<hr /></blockquote>But what does HE want? Would he want to be married to someone who had an affair? Shouldn't he have the right to make that choice or do you intend on keeping him hostage in a sham marriage based on a lie?

Isn't it a little cruel and manipilative to keep someone fraudulently tied to you? A marriage based on fraud and deceit is destined to failure.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by asb3pe:
 I am in therapy right now for my infidelity. My W and I have separated too. When she found out about what I did, I was completely honest. My W told me the other day, "I wish you had lied to me the night I found out". Go figure. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

My psychologist told me that (and this shocked me at first, being a very open and honest person) sometimes, honesty can be selfish. I guess his thinking is that YOU would experience a great sense of relief just "getting that off your back". But - what you are doing is throwing it onto your H's back. And now he bears the brunt of the pain, hurt, anger, despair and all that... Which, when I thought about it, IS very selfish behavior, and I guess that's why my W wished I had lied about my transgression instead of "coming clean". Is it worth it to clear your conscience at the expense of your H's? Isn't that what you're struggling with? I know Harley would disagree with my take (and my therapist's), but sometimes I think Harley's world is just too perfect for the "real world". That's not to say I don't agree with his core marriage concepts, because I do agree. But I've come to see that honesty and openness - about PAST incidents - can be "overrated", I suppose you could say.

What I would do, is from this point forward in your life, be as open and honest as possible with your H, but I would not reveal past, damaging incidents to him. If you're truly ready to turn over a new leaf and improve your marriage, then you DO need to start following the MB concept on H&O today and every day from here on out.

JMHO. Best wishes. <hr /></blockquote>Sufdb....There are lots of incompetent therapists (and doctors, and lawyers, and accountants...etc.) out there...so what? Certainly one can use honesty in a hurtful way, how you are honesty, twisting honesty, etc. But we are not talking about that here....and your wife did not want you to keep the secret, that was just a reaction to the pain....if she really did, then she is as screwed up as you supposedly were...why would anyone deliberately seek a dysfunctional marriage? (which is what any marriage with this kind of secret automatically is....dysfunctional).

Finally learning, this really boils down to the same simple stuff behind all behavioiral choices. You want to manipulate your H and kids, for your own benefit (keeping the life you think you want....now)....that makes you a dangerous person. You are stealing your H right to make decisions about his own life....All this angst is about you, that makes you a narcissist (or at least acting like one), using your H and kids as an excuse to decieve them. You are also seeking to avoid the natural consequences of your actions...which is what all murderers, thieves, pedofiles, and such ilk do as well.... You can hide or you can grow and learn from lifes experiences, but what you can't do is escape. Keeping the secret will destroy your marriage, seriously injure your kids, debilitate your own well-being, and ripple on through the generations. You cannot hide such things FL, it oozes from your every pore, it is in your every action, it is already poisoning your life and you cannot stop it ever, eventually it will literally kill you (shorten your lifespan, depriving your presence to kids and grandkids...that is the biochemical effect of such things on ones physical health).....but you can take the antidote...honesty.

fl...I can't confess, so where does that leave me?

sufdb....giving your family a death sentence.

There is no gaurantee the marriage would survive, that isn't the reason for honesty....what honesty is about is making recovery possible for all parties, including the marriage....deception just gaurantees a crippled marriage at best, an possibly much worse.

[ February 20, 2004, 08:48 AM: Message edited by: sufdb ]

ok, my last post was not at all helpful, i suppose neither was the original one that started this topic. i am ready to try again...

(JL, yes i did notice you held back some, thanks)

so what exactly has happend to make me change my mind back to the not telling decision? first of all, the vacation really was nice. it was not perfect, different people got tired at various times, myself included. no one was perfect in their behaviour, no one was terrible. different people did not always want to do what the others were doing (i.e my son did not want to go on a lot of rides my daughter wanted to go on, my husband didn't enjoy discovery cove as much as the rest of us, my daughter didn't want to go to the playground areas that my son wanted to be at, i can't think of what i didn't want to do cuz actually i wanted to do it all <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> i am just like that, my husband even told me at one point that he admires how easily i seem to be able to enjoy anything. this was his response to trying to understand why i get frustrated at others for not going along with suggestions. which, i suppose, is my problem, i wanted everyone else to want to do it all too and got frustrated at the kids when they grumbled.) but we had lots of laughs. my H was true to his word and got up everyday when the alarm went off. he is known for not wanting to get up early and this has been a sore spot on past vacations, including the last time we all went to disney together. i expressed my appreciation for that effort very much. i gave everyone a foot massage every night just before bed, we did soooo much walking. i also arranged nap time for my husband on 2 of the days by taking the kids to the water park on my own. and i sincerly had no problem with that, i was the one to recommend it. and my husband was very appreciative of that.

so what is my problem? internally i had to watch myself, i had to actively work on enjoying being with my husband. but that is to be expected, right? it is understandable that i have to work on not letting my old view of him subconciously effect my current view of him. for quite some time now i have prayed each night for the ability to continue to heal old wounds and just focus on the future. and i did the same thing while in disney. maybe the thought of having to do that even during a vacation worries me. but it is understandable, isn't it??

our trip home was a little stressful, we were late, almost missing our flight but arrived to find the flight was delayed. we got home late and had to be at school and work the next day. true to my word, i let my husband sleep in and i was in charge of getting kids to school, true to their word, the kids were extremely great about getting up (husband would of prefered taking an earlier flight, we had a family vote, the 3 of us wanted more time at disney so it was agreed, kids would have to get up without complaint and i would be the one to get them out the door allowing H to sleep in).

they got to school, i got to work and i think the lack of sleep finally caught up to me. that coupled with having to be back at work, at a job i really don't want to be at anymore. (i am wanting to change careers to a HS math teacher, i have found an excellent accelerate program to get my certificate but have put the plans on hold for now because family needs my income too much, H has not been able to find steady job, he is a freelance photographer, has been for about 9 yrs. but that work is not lucrative enough. however, having him home has been great for the family. now that the kids are both in school, that need is not there as much. H and I are struggling with if and when we can afford to have my salary go down at this point, of course that is a whole other story!!).

if there was anything on the trip that bugged me, (besides having to mentally work on enjoying his company at times) it was a memory of a cruise he and i took for our 5th anniversary that kept trying to creep into my brain. on that trip, he would never get up very early with me. i am a morning person, he is a night person. i really wanted to see a sunrise, he would not do it. i watched that sunrise alone and felt so extremely lonley. although, i will say, the sunrise was amazing to watch, to see a new day starting. he said a sunrise is no different than a sunset, but it really is very different. anyway, i also had breakfast alone each morning, well with the other 5 people assigned to the table. and it became a running joke of the table. each night my H would say, I'll be here for breakfast tommorow, but he never did. each morning i would go alone(i need a good breakfast). it was a joke to everyone, well everyone but me, i was sad about it, i never showed it though, (at least not in a direct way, i have to wonder now if i showed it indirectly. instead i would bring him food back with me every morning, eggs benedict, and then he would wake up and eat in the cabin while i kept him company.

so what have i finally learned JL? I have to be honeset, i have to show myself to him, good and bad. but the problem is, he does not want to see the bad!!! he wants everything to just be smooth sailing. whenever i express any sort of neg feeling he takes it personally, gets defensive and mad/aggrevated with me. he won't let me show him everything about me. yesterday, i stayed home in the morning, took a conf call from home and when it ended i asked him to lay down with me for a little bit. between wed, our first full day home and then, the sadness of how much bad stuff went on between us took hold of me. i am sure the lack of sleep didn't help, i just kept thinking about the cruise and i felt like if i could just express it to him i would feel better. the place i feel safest to talk to him about my feelings is laying down in bed, in his arms, i know he knew something was bothering me, as i tried to figure out how to say it the right way, he fell asleep. and i just ended up feeling even worse. i got up cuz i had to get to work, he got up with me and as i was literally walking out the door he said something about you still seem sad, i hope you get to feeling better. and i broke into tears, "why didn't you ask me what it was about, why did you fall asleep when you knew i had something on my mind?" no good answer, except he guesses he was just still tired from the trip. this is not the first time that has happened, his mind cannot deal with anything negative sometimes, he just shuts down and falls asleep. so i get in car and then the really big tears come while i'm driving. i call him on the cell and tell him what was bothering me, that i don't want to focus on the past but the truth is i was just feeling sad about our past and i told him specifically about the cruise memories. was it wrong of me to tell him that? i just needed some reassurance right then, that we, the couple, not just the family, really are on a better path right now. i realize that i didn't actually tell him that specifically, i did not tell him what i needed was some reassurance that we are ok. he just listened and said well i hope you get to feeling better, i'm sure lunch with sylvia (a co-worker) will cheer you up. so last night was we were pretty distant. did i put this wall up?? i feel like i just need to be stronger, i have to get better at letting go of the past and just move forward.

melodylane, what my H wants is for all the turmoil that has occured over the last few years to be over. he does not want us to not go back to how our marriage was before, he agrees neither of us did a very good job at being in this relationship. he just wants to have stabilty and progress moving forward. he sees no reason for this to not be able to happen. "we both messed up a lot, we both know it, we both are working on being better partners, we love each other, bottome line, there is no problem anymore" so how could i possible tell him now. what purpose would it really be serving???

i have to be strong enough to let it go and move on. i have to do this on my own. we have been through so much. if i could just relax and stop worrying so much. if i could just have faith in our love for each other and in the things we have learned, we could be great together.

incidentally, in the middle of this post, my H called and apologized for not being a better listener yesterday, that it was ok to need the extra reassurance (i finally managed to tell him that is what i was needing). i started to say, i'm sorry for needing it, i should not need it but he said no, we both know that is not how feelings work, you cannot control the feelings from coming, only how you react to them. he said i did not attack him in anyway, i just wanted to share and i should be able to do that. also worth noting, on wed morning, when he slept in and i got kids to school, i wrote him a love note, even though i was feeling some sad feelings already, telling him how much i enjoyed the trip, i did a top 5 reason i enjoyed the trip (one was not having to wake him up, another was enjoying holding his had, the top #1 was for being there with him.) he really liked the note. so i am learning too, i can have neg feelings but i don't have to let it impact my actions and i can offset the neg feelings by doing something positive like writing him that note. although i still have to be able to directly share, even the neg feelings, with him if that is what i need to do.

there really are good signs here that we can just move forward.

amy, i hear what you are saying. thank you for your post. i know i have confused the heck out of him. but you have to realize, i didn't just have an affair while pretending nothing was wrong in our marriage. he knows how serious i was about divorce (and it was not to be with the OM, i think my A was different than so many here, this was not a person i was thinking i could run away with and live happiley ever after, this was a full blown PA, with just enough fantasy friendship in there to keep me sane). my H knows our marriage was in serious trouble and the seperation was a big wakeup call for him. i slowed our progress out of this mess because once in the A, i had a hard time finding my way out. but if i can be strong now, the confusion can just be left where it is, in the past. i know where i went wrong. i also know myself better, i have done a lot of work on coming to terms with my childhood and the needs i have because of that childhood and i have learned to express and share that all with my H. and i have accepted that i have to work hard on myself, i have to come to realize it is I that have acted in a passive agressive way (i used to think my husband was like that) there is nothting more passive agressive than having an affair <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> i have never really trusted my H. i have always held on ,really tightly, to the idea that no one will ever really be on my side (childhood wounds).

maybe you all are just shaking your head at me, thinking i am so much in denial. i hate to think i am taking steps backwards. i will go back and read some of the past posts which led me to the other decision.

JL, you asked some questions:

How are you going to get H involved in your plan? he is involved.
How are you going to improve communications with H? we are actively working on this. mostly the imporvement is due to what we learned at Retrouvaille.
What are his strengths?his patience
What does he value? well, he really values being respected (yes i know, you are all screaming now, YOU ARE NOT RESPECTING HIM by not telling him) i don't know how to answer that. on top of that he values stability. he really desperately and deeply needs stabilty right now, he has made that very clear.
What do you think his goals are?well we have some issues to work out there. he wants to figure out how to start up a furniture store, mission furniture. i want to be a teacher, those two plans don't work out so well together.

so bottom line, do i have a plan? the best i can tell you there is i am 100% committed to continuing to grow and heal and be the best wife i can be.

asb, no worries, you did not confuse me at all. i wish you much luck in your therapy, thank you for posting. as you can see, i am more inline with your way of thinking already.

sufdb, i am sorry if this sounds bad but i sure am glad you did not post yesterday!! you do not know me, you have no idea what all my anguish is about. feel free to believe what you want about me. if you were attempting to be helpful in your post, you did not suceed. and if that is not your intent, to be helpful, then i respectfully ask you to please not post to me at all.

sufdb, i am sorry if this sounds bad but i sure am glad you did not post yesterday!! you do not know me, you have no idea what all my anguish is about. feel free to believe what you want about me. if you were attempting to be helpful in your post, you did not suceed. and if that is not your intent, to be helpful, then i respectfully ask you to please not post to me at all.

sufdb..The point is I don't need to know anything about you fl, your anguish is not particularly remarkable, it is normal for ws, and does not excuse the continued deception. There are no excuses for not revealing truth to someone else, those who do so are theives and liars, and all the rationalizing in the world won't change the deception. Nor am I impressed with the above statement, or your assertions you know what's best for your H. He has a liar for a wife, he just doesn't know it, and he has a right to know (of course if you tell, you are no longer a liar, you are honest....which is the whole point).

If you don't understand that, then you are behaving narcissistically. Narcissists want what they want for them, and will do whatever it takes to get it.....for now, you want the "happy" marriage so you manipulate your H accordingly, and justify decieveing him is ok because you do it for "him"....nah, you are doing it for yourself, because you are afraid he will leave you, at least admit that to yourself. Let me ask you a question, if you knew with certainty that revealing the affair would make your marriage stronger, would you do so? Of course you would, and that's the point, you have no principles, you are doing what it takes to get what YOU want, that is what narcissists do...everything is about them. Your H has a right to know, and you have absolutely no right to continue to decieve him. It is not your choice to decide what he should and should not know about his life.

The affair does not end until it is revealed, for the rest of your life you are in a conspiracy with the om to decieve your H, no matter how you rationalize it away, there are parts of you your H will never know, they belong to om, and you do so willingly...that is really kinda despicable. But be that as it may, perhaps you will understand and make proper ammends, if not you, and your family will pay a price, and it will be high.

Helpful? Yes, I was trying to be helpful, by confronting you in the hopes you are not a narcissist, or a controller, thinking sometimes the hard truth shakes people out of their denial. If I wasn't "helpful", it is because you are a determined controller thinking you have the right to decide other peoples lives for them....in which case, you are right, no one will "convince" you otherwise because honesty is not your agenda...one can only hope someday your H knows the truth, in the meantime you have the power to dupe him, and seem intent on doing so....don't expect to be validated, or allowed to do so unchallenged.

I wonder what your response would be if your H asked you if you ever had an affair. And I really can't understand why you want to keep om in your marriage, why you will let this affect your entire life, rather than trust your H, and tell him the truth, and let him choose you for you...not cause you manipulate him.

[ February 20, 2004, 01:36 PM: Message edited by: sufdb ]

I'm the WS, my situation is a little different than yours but I think I can offer some insight.

I ended the A a while before H found out. I ended it because I realized I wanted to make my marriage work.

Before the A, I was VERY unhappy. I found though that after, once I stopped withdrawing from him, and changed MY approach towards him, everything got MUCH better.

Sad that then he found out and that all went out the window, but I do not regret him knowing. I think the guilt would have eaten me alive, it did and still does.

I'm not trying to pursuade you either way, just giving you my experience. It sounds like you're thinking the right way to make your marriage better.

Again not trying to pursuade, but I also vowed to take it to my grave. Though he found out without me telling him, I know I couldn't have kept it up long.

My revealing the details of the A has started to better our marriage in many ways. I realized that I wanted my M to work VERY badly and that if I didn't tell him EVERYTHING that it would just seem to be working, but not really be good. I knew for that couple of months I was in the A, our marriage was a lie, I didn't want it to be that way forever. But I understand how you are feeling as I felt the same way for a couple weeks after I ended the A.

Just sharing my story! Hope it helped in some small way

FL -

I cannot leave without pleading with you again. After reading your response, there are so many references in there to you and your H not being connected. You are not connected because you cannot get past this huge lump of A between you.

I am telling you, as a BS, your H KNOWS something is wrong. At best, he doesn't know what it is and is just going to keep on in the marriage even though he is not happy - as you are doing. At worst, he thinks it is something he is doing that is causing you to be unhappy, and will spend countless time trying to "fix" you or "make you happy."

That you are here posting, that you titled your topic the way you did, that you didn't just drop off MB site without a trace (and thank GOD you didn't do that - please do not do that), I cannot help but think you are giving out a cry for help.

I believe, as all WS do deep down, that you know what you have to do. It is what drew you to this website. And you are now afraid, because it is after the vacation, and you said you were going to do something, and now you are afraid and backing out.

You have filled up your H's love bank so much with your actions over the vacation (letting him nap and sleep in)! And he yours (waking with the alarm clock). You have nicely set the stage for the best chance of him wanting to work on the M with you, after you tell the truth. Do not let fear rob you of your best opportunity!

No good decision was made out of fear. Courage is not the absense of fear - it is being brave IN SPITE of your fear. Write it in a letter and read it to him. Make up note cards.

After he goes through the natural range of emotions (and reading so much here, you have a pretty good idea of what those are going to be), he will be so grateful you told him. On some level, he already knows! You are not protecting him. You are not saving him. It is too late for that. You had an A!

All you can do now is the best thing for him, and that is not to lie to him for the rest of your lives. You know down that path lies unhappiness for you both. You have to know that!

And you have so much support and love here to help and guide you. That is why you are still here. Your true self is here, seeking, learning, knowing. Do not let that small (but powerful) fear hold you back. You know what you know now, you cannot go back, thinking not telling will work.

I have so much compassion for you. After my H asked me to marry him, I happily said yes. Then I woke up at 2 am, from horrible dreams, because I had cheated on him with 2 boys while we were living together - dating exclusively.

So, I faced my fear. I was so afraid of rejection. I had no idea what he would do. But I was more afraid of beginning a M on a lie. And I just blurted it all out in a rush, told him if he didn't want to marry me because of all the horror I had told him, I understood.

And he laid there and thought about it for a long time! Then he said he still wanted to marry me, he forgave me. WOW. And I have never regretted, even now, that I let our M begin on a firm foundation of truth, honesty, and friendship. You will not regret it, either. This can be the beginning of your real M.

Love and hugs, Amy

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by FinallyLearning:


melodylane, what my H wants is for all the turmoil that has occured over the last few years to be over. he does not want us to not go back to how our marriage was before, he agrees neither of us did a very good job at being in this relationship. he just wants to have stabilty and progress moving forward. he sees no reason for this to not be able to happen. <hr /></blockquote>Of course he doesn't see a reason not to move forward because you are defrauding him. You are keeping him a marriage based on a lie. He may not choose to live with a liar and an adulterer and you are depriving him of that right.

You are manipulating him for your own benefit because you can't face the consequences of your actions. Please don't try to tell us your continued deceit is for HIS benefit, it is for YOURS.

Through fraud and deceit, you have cruelly determined what is best for him, when you are the LAST PERSON in the world who is qualified to determine what is best for him. Is the rapist qualified to determine what is best for his victim? Of course not.

I feel very sorry for your H and your children.

i am 100% committed to continuing to grow and heal and be the best wife i can be.
Not really. Maybe only 50%.
You don’t trust your husband enough to confide in him.
You continue to lie to him every second of your life together. (Yes, this hurts MUCH worse than the affair).
Those two things show that you are not really as committed as you think you are.

I’m not suggesting you just blurt out about the affair. But to think you marriage can “recover” when your husband does not have a clue that it needs to “recover”, just ain’t gonna cut it.

If you want to be committed, then be committed. Don’t do it half-baked and think it’s “pretty good”.

Still praying for you fl.

S&C

FL -

You didn't let us all scare you away, did you? Keep posting and communicating with us. I think you need more time to make sure your decision is going to work for you.

Whatever that decision is.

Please keep posting. Do not leave.

I am praying for you, hoping for you, wishing to see a post from you soon.

HUGS! Amy

well, i woke up yesterday morning realizing I have to go back to the decision of telling my H.
I am going to stay home one day this week and talk to him after the kids go to school. I would sure appreciate any final advice. What book would be the best one to have do you think. I have read part of His Needs, Her Needs. I have heard a lot of people talk about Torn Asunder too. Obviously my H will not have to learn about plan A/B. I am extremely out of the A fog. He does not have to work on winning me over. He has already done that. I realize it is now my turn to work really hard now. Please pray for us.

milwifefw, thank you for sharing your story. it does help.

Amy, I thank you for your interest and positive energy. God knows, it is more than i deserve. You are very kind. I have not gone anywhere and I agree with what you say. I am obviously calling out for help because I keep coming here. Thank you for seeing that and responding with such kindness. i'm sorry i didnt post yesterday, i did read your post, and as i stated above, i had already decided i had to tell him. i guess i needed an extra day to admit it on the board again. (i really am so scared, he does not deserve all this pain i am about to dump on him, nor all the pain i have been dumping on him)

Chris -CA123, as you can see, i know you are right.

S&C, thank you for your prayers. i have not been over to the prayer board in a few weeks. your prayers mean a lot.

sufdb, melodylane, i will say this to you both. it does not help me to have you tell me how awful i am, like comparing me to a rapist. i can understand it must be hard for you to listen to the whinings of a WS afraid to tell her H she has cheated on him (i assumer you are both BSs). I am very sorry for the pain you have both endured. I do not wish to add to it. Nor do I need you to be adding to mine right now. And so I am asking you, please do not respond to my posts anymore.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by FinallyLearning:

sufdb, melodylane, i will say this to you both. it does not help me to have you tell me how awful i am, like comparing me to a rapist. i can understand it must be hard for you to listen to the whinings of a WS afraid to tell her H she has cheated on him (i assumer you are both BSs). I am very sorry for the pain you have both endured. <hr /></blockquote>I am sorry that I used an analogy with you. I just assume that most people "get" analogies; I know many simply cannot. I see I was wrong here so I will try and explain my point in a clearer manner.

My point is NOT that you are a rapist, but that you, the adulterer, are the LAST PERSON who is qualified to decide what is "best" for your victim since you are the one who committed the crime. See what I mean? My analogy was intended to convey that PRINCIPLE, not that you are a rapist.

And I appreciate your concern for my "pain," but I have not been in pain for years. And sufb is not a BS, but a WS just like you. Not that either of our backgrounds, or our "pain," has anything to do with the points we made.

I understand that its hard for you to hear truthful opinions about your behavior so I can see why it would be hard for you to see such opinions. But please don't run from differing views, try and be open minded and listen to them.

[ February 22, 2004, 04:56 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]

FL -

I am so impressed with you! I knew you had it in you. I truly did. It is going to be hard, but at least you both will have 100% honesty again.

I believe with all my heart that you will not regret your decision. Maybe you will some days, but in 1 or 2 years, I believe you will wake up every morning thanking yourself for having faith and trust in yourself.

I hope 1 or 2 years doesn't scare you. It used to scare me and make me feel claustophobic and like I couldn't breath. But healing takes time - healing in a good, lasting way. And that is the only way I want, because I don't ever want to go through this again - whether I am still with WH or someone else.

And you will be on the healing path all that time. Not just out in the ether-world, doing nothing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Anyway, just wanted you to know I read your post and am so happy and excited for you. I have read "Torn Assunder," and very much liked it and recomend it. Very insightful, and he has much life experience, like the Harleys. They say much the same things, just in different ways.

Good luck. Of course keep posting. Maybe even run some of your ideas past us to get advice about which ways might work better than others. Post post post. And we will read read read and love you and support you.

Hugs, Amy

As a BS who has been posting on this board for nearly 5 years, I have come to the conclusion that confessing is sometimes a selfish move, and is not always the right decision. Obviously hiding an ongoing affair is wrong and destructive - but the major problem with that, of course, is that the affair is ongoing. If it is truly over, and there is no contact, and the possibility of sexually transmitted diseases has been ruled out, in many cases I think it is better for the WS to keep his or her mouth shut. Perhaps you would not be giving your H the chance to decide whether he wanted to stay with an adulterer, but if you tell him, then you could be destroying his world. If I were the BS, in most cases I would prefer not to know.

FL, I CAN'T TELL YOU WHETHER CONFESSING OR NOT IS RIGHT OR WRONG.

FL, I CAN'T TELL YOU WHETHER CONFESSING OR NOT IS RIGHT OR WRONG. THAT IS BETWEEN YOU AND GOD. I CAN TELL YOU I WISH I NEVER KNEW ABOUT THE A AT TIMES. BUT IT HAS TRULLY CHANGED OUR MARRIAGE FOR THE BETTER. PLEASE BE SURE OF YOUR DECISION.. BECAUSE IF HE EVER FINDS OUT HE WILL TRULLY BE HURT AND ANGRY.. SOMETIMES NOT TELLING SOMEONE CAN HURT MORE THA THE ACT. I WILL PRAY FOR YOU. MAY YOUR MARRIAGE BE BLESSED . BEST WISHES!!

FL,

I am glad you are making the decision to tell your H. I had copied your the major portion of your longest post here to address a few things when I say your last post about telling your H. I was going to just post and congratulate you on your decision and then I realized you may not fully understand how this is a postive decision. So with your patience I would like to review your last post in light of your decision.

You said <blockquote>quote:<hr />
so what exactly has happend to make me change my mind back to the not telling decision? first of all, the vacation really was nice. it was not perfect, different people got tired at various times, myself included. no one was perfect in their behaviour, no one was terrible. different people did not always want to do what the others were doing (i.e my son did not want to go on a lot of rides my daughter wanted to go on, my husband didn't enjoy discovery cove as much as the rest of us, my daughter didn't want to go to the playground areas that my son wanted to be at, i can't think of what i didn't want to do cuz actually i wanted to do it all [Smile] i am just like that, my husband even told me at one point that he admires how easily i seem to be able to enjoy anything. this was his response to trying to understand why i get frustrated at others for not going along with suggestions. which, i suppose, is my problem, i wanted everyone else to want to do it all too and got frustrated at the kids when they grumbled.) but we had lots of laughs. my H was true to his word and got up everyday when the alarm went off. he is known for not wanting to get up early and this has been a sore spot on past vacations, including the last time we all went to disney together. i expressed my appreciation for that effort very much. i gave everyone a foot massage every night just before bed, we did soooo much walking. i also arranged nap time for my husband on 2 of the days by taking the kids to the water park on my own. and i sincerly had no problem with that, i was the one to recommend it. and my husband was very appreciative of that.

so what is my problem? internally i had to watch myself, i had to actively work on enjoying being with my husband. but that is to be expected, right? it is understandable that i have to work on not letting my old view of him subconciously effect my current view of him. for quite some time now i have prayed each night for the ability to continue to heal old wounds and just focus on the future. and i did the same thing while in disney. maybe the thought of having to do that even during a vacation worries me. but it is understandable, isn't it??<hr /></blockquote>I left in your whole description of your efforts and the vacation for a reason. You mention your struggle to see the good things in your H. You struggle with the memories of your 5th year cruise. You are STRUGGLING because you have no one to talk to. You have no way to see things differently other than coming here. You are having trouble healing old wounds, and they still fester don't they.

You KNOW where I am going with this, don't you? You cannot open up a "little bit" to your H because the demons of the affair are hiding aren't they? You know it and I am guess that you writing here is making you see this. FL, I see this revelation has really helping you and your marriage. I will tell you why I think it will help your H a little later.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />(i am wanting to change careers to a HS math teacher, i have found an excellent accelerate program to get my certificate but have put the plans on hold for now because family needs my income too much, H has not been able to find steady job, he is a freelance photographer, has been for about 9 yrs. but that work is not lucrative enough. however, having him home has been great for the family. now that the kids are both in school, that need is not there as much. H and I are struggling with if and when we can afford to have my salary go down at this point, of course that is a whole other story!!).<hr /></blockquote>Let's back off here and take a look at this. Neither or you are doing what your want professionally. Neither of you really have the home life you want. Neither of you really have the marriage you want. Do you see a trend? I do. If you were happy in your career, and your H was happy in his, then it is more likely that you two would feel "safe", that you would feel less in defend mode and more in giving mode. Security and a firm footing in life HELPS marriages. Conversely, a GOOD marriage where the couple KNOWS that they can lean on the other can be the bedrock that gets you through the issues of life at work.

FL, I see you needing to tell your H for a very simple reason. Your marriage NEEDS to be the bedrock that both of you can stand on, to make the other choices in your life. I think your H senses that, and I think given your decision that you sense this. FL, THIS IS WHY YOU ARE GOING TO TELL YOUR H AND HE NEEDS TO UNDERSTAND THIS. He AND you need to be standing on bedrock, that starts with honesty, and it starts by letting out the deep secrets and fears. It starts with kindness.

FL, I am guessing but I think that many of your marriage issues come from your work situation and his. He may be sort of a free spirit artist, but he needs a structure around him, he feels as if he is failing you if he cannot bring in the steady paycheck. He is going to have to face a very critical choice or series of decisons (and honestly staying with you or not is actually probably NOT going to be as big an issue). The big issue is his chosen career vs. what he expects from himself as a father and husband. He will have to work that out.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />if there was anything on the trip that bugged me, (besides having to mentally work on enjoying his company at times) it was a memory of a cruise he and i took for our 5th anniversary that kept trying to creep into my brain. on that trip, he would never get up very early with me. i am a morning person, he is a night person. i really wanted to see a sunrise, he would not do it. i watched that sunrise alone and felt so extremely lonley. although, i will say, the sunrise was amazing to watch, to see a new day starting. he said a sunrise is no different than a sunset, but it really is very different. anyway, i also had breakfast alone each morning, well with the other 5 people assigned to the table. and it became a running joke of the table. each night my H would say, I'll be here for breakfast tommorow, but he never did. each morning i would go alone(i need a good breakfast). it was a joke to everyone, well everyone but me, i was sad about it, i never showed it though, (at least not in a direct way, i have to wonder now if i showed it indirectly. instead i would bring him food back with me every morning, eggs benedict, and then he would wake up and eat in the cabin while i kept him company.<hr /></blockquote>Lack of honesty on your part sowed the seeds of your discontent today. Do you see where this marriage has to be improved? You all did a great job POJA'ing the sleep issue on the vacation. I think this is another area where you becoming honest about the affair will be very important. ONce you can be honest about something THAT big, then I suspect discussing feelings about who sleeps in on a cruise will not be so big. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> But I would guess that your discontent with that cruise factored into your decision about the A. So it actually was very big in YOUR mind, and that is what counts and he needs to know that.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />so what have i finally learned JL? I have to be honeset, i have to show myself to him, good and bad. but the problem is, he does not want to see the bad!!! he wants everything to just be smooth sailing. whenever i express any sort of neg feeling he takes it personally, gets defensive and mad/aggrevated with me. <hr /></blockquote>OK FL, look at this paragraph carefully. He wants it smooth sailing, so do you, so do I. Given any choice I choose smooth sailing. That is NOT criminal. However, you say he is defensive and gets mad when you voice that you are not happy about something. OK, now please think about this very carefully before you disclose to him.

He is defensive because HE feels it is his job to keep you happy and he knows he has failed. So any mention of your dissatisfaction in the marriage or life he ASSUMES is his fault. HE failed. HE is not good enough.

Now step back if he reall feels this way, why would he WANT to hear more about HIS failures. You wouldn't would you?? So when you start to talk about the A, talk about YOUR decisions, and YOUR thinking, and YOUR feelings, AFTER to tell him he is about to hear what it is you are going to say.

Why is he going to hear it? Because this marriage needs to be more stable than it has been. It needs to nuture both of you, and so far it has not nutured either of you. BECAUSE YOU NEED HIS HELP AND YOU HOPE THAT HE WILL FIND A WAY TO STAND FAST AND HELP BOTH YOU AND THIS MARRIAGE.

Once he has this message then tell him about your thinking. He needs to know this was YOUR decision. YOU both need to acknowledge that your happiness is your own issue, but a married couple enjoys one another's happiness, and helps one another in the hard times.

FL, what is going to happen no matter what is your relationship and marriage is about to undergo a major transformation. If you both begin to talk about what you want out of it, what you are willing to give to it, what you have failed to give to it, then I think you can make it better. Please don't forget to discuss the affect career decisions have on your marriage.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />he won't let me show him everything about me. yesterday, i stayed home in the morning, took a conf call from home and when it ended i asked him to lay down with me for a little bit. between wed, our first full day home and then, the sadness of how much bad stuff went on between us took hold of me. i am sure the lack of sleep didn't help, i just kept thinking about the cruise and i felt like if i could just express it to him i would feel better. the place i feel safest to talk to him about my feelings is laying down in bed, in his arms, i know he knew something was bothering me, as i tried to figure out how to say it the right way, he fell asleep. <hr /></blockquote>Let's see he is tired he is lying next to you (which is probably very relaxing to him), and he went to sleep. Am I missing something or isn't that what he was supposed to do? Of course it was. He had no idea you really wanted to talk, you didn't talk. So given the lousy mindreader that he is, he shut his off. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

FL, what you said was a disrespectful judgement, DJ. You judged his action or inaction based on some information you failed to give him. Next, time go for a long walk and then talk.

This is also a communications issue. Pick your spots to communicate, and pick your spots to relax and simply enjoy "being".

<blockquote>quote:<hr />and i just ended up feeling even worse. i got up cuz i had to get to work, he got up with me and as i was literally walking out the door he said something about you still seem sad, i hope you get to feeling better. and i broke into tears, "why didn't you ask me what it was about, why did you fall asleep when you knew i had something on my mind?" no good answer, except he guesses he was just still tired from the trip.<hr /></blockquote>That was the answer. Why should he worry if you have something on your mind if you are UNWILLING TO SHARE IT WITH HIM? You set him up to fail and you got what you wanted failure? You see when Harley talks about protection in marriage, this is what he is talking about. You failed to protect your H, by talking to him when you laid down. He fell into the trap you set, and then you blame him. He MAY have the idea he cannot win. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> But, he did know you were sad. He was very aware of you, but he can do nothing until you communicate with him.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> this is not the first time that has happened, his mind cannot deal with anything negative sometimes, he just shuts down and falls asleep. so i get in car and then the really big tears come while i'm driving. i call him on the cell and tell him what was bothering me, that i don't want to focus on the past but the truth is i was just feeling sad about our past and i told him specifically about the cruise memories. was it wrong of me to tell him that? i just needed some reassurance right then, that we, the couple, not just the family, really are on a better path right now. i realize that i didn't actually tell him that specifically, i did not tell him what i needed was some reassurance that we are ok. <hr /></blockquote>So you see you left him guessing again. If he acts or fails to react properply he loses and the odds of him reading your mind and getting it right are very small. I can see him thinking "I can't do anything right", "EVerything I say seems to be wrong", "I cannot make her happy". AND...he would be right as long as he has to guess what is on your mind.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />he just listened and said well i hope you get to feeling better, i'm sure lunch with sylvia (a co-worker) will cheer you up. so last night was we were pretty distant. did i put this wall up?? i feel like i just need to be stronger, i have to get better at letting go of the past and just move forward.<hr /></blockquote>Letting go of the past????? Heck woman that is NOT your problem. Your problem is you have never addressed the past and certainly not with him, in a situation where he was not always playing a guessing game. He is trying to be aware of you, he is trying to pump you up, he is hoping lunch with your friend will make you happy and what are you thinking... I have to let go of the past. What are you thinking. It is the present that is the problem. You were distant because he did not GUESS right. You were distant because somehow HE is supposed to fix YOU. You were distant because you were NOT honest with him, nor did you rely on him, nor did you trust him.

FL, please think carefully about this, before you confess. Why? You need to change the way you act once you put this marriage on a new footing. YOU need to help your H, so he can help you. AND don't let him make the same mistakes you are making once he finds out and wants to go hide in a hole, which he very likely will.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />melodylane, what my H wants is for all the turmoil that has occured over the last few years to be over. he does not want us to not go back to how our marriage was before, he agrees neither of us did a very good job at being in this relationship. he just wants to have stabilty and progress moving forward. he sees no reason for this to not be able to happen. "we both messed up a lot, we both know it, we both are working on being better partners, we love each other, bottome line, there is no problem anymore" so how could i possible tell him now. what purpose would it really be serving???<hr /></blockquote>I know you have decided it will have a purpose, but read this paragraph again. HELLO, he may already know or strongly suspect you had the A. He may have made a mistake or two as well. BUT, what he is saying is he wants YOU in his life, but he does NOT want the marriage you all had in his life. His desires for the marriage are very healthy and normal. His head is NOT in the sand. He just knows he doesn't know what is going on. I think he will work with you on the marriage.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />i have to be strong enough to let it go and move on. i have to do this on my own. we have been through so much. if i could just relax and stop worrying so much. if i could just have faith in our love for each other and in the things we have learned, we could be great together.

incidentally, in the middle of this post, my H called and apologized for not being a better listener yesterday, that it was ok to need the extra reassurance (i finally managed to tell him that is what i was needing). i started to say, i'm sorry for needing it, i should not need it but he said no, we both know that is not how feelings work, you cannot control the feelings from coming, only how you react to them. he said i did not attack him in anyway, i just wanted to share and i should be able to do that. also worth noting, on wed morning, when he slept in and i got kids to school, i wrote him a love note, even though i was feeling some sad feelings already, telling him how much i enjoyed the trip, i did a top 5 reason i enjoyed the trip (one was not having to wake him up, another was enjoying holding his had, the top #1 was for being there with him.) he really liked the note. so i am learning too, i can have neg feelings but i don't have to let it impact my actions and i can offset the neg feelings by doing something positive like writing him that note. although i still have to be able to directly share, even the neg feelings, with him if that is what i need to do.<hr /></blockquote>And I am guessing your decision to tell him is based on what happened as described in the paragraph above right? You are feeling safer with him, you realize he is trying. You realize he does get it about feelings. You realize you are in a far safer place than he is (he is about to find out about that isn't he?) FL, I see tremendous hope for your marriage and I think your decision to tell is a good one. The more I read the more I think he suspects there was another man.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />there really are good signs here that we can just move forward.<hr /></blockquote>Yes there are good signs, and I think that will "radical honesty" you two will be down to bedrock, which is an excellent place to start to use what you have learned.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />i also know myself better, i have done a lot of work on coming to terms with my childhood and the needs i have because of that childhood and i have learned to express and share that all with my H. and i have accepted that i have to work hard on myself, i have to come to realize it is I that have acted in a passive agressive way (i used to think my husband was like that) there is nothting more passive agressive than having an affair [Frown] i have never really trusted my H. i have always held on ,really tightly, to the idea that no one will ever really be on my side (childhood wounds).<hr /></blockquote>Tell him this when discussing the A. It is not an excuse, but it is a realizition that you have come to that will go a long way to preventing you from having another one. THAT he will need to know.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />JL, you asked some questions:

How are you going to get H involved in your plan? he is involved.
How are you going to improve communications with H? we are actively working on this. mostly the imporvement is due to what we learned at Retrouvaille.
What are his strengths?his patience
What does he value? well, he really values being respected (yes i know, you are all screaming now, YOU ARE NOT RESPECTING HIM by not telling him) i don't know how to answer that. on top of that he values stability. he really desperately and deeply needs stabilty right now, he has made that very clear.
What do you think his goals are?well we have some issues to work out there. he wants to figure out how to start up a furniture store, mission furniture. i want to be a teacher, those two plans don't work out so well together.<hr /></blockquote>Stability...we all need it. You might want to realize that by you telling him this, it will seem as if his world is really unstable, BUT... what you have actually done is take a giant step toward stabilizing his world. A stable world is one where honesty and facts are present. THEN decisions can be made. It sure beats guessing which is what he has had to do with you for a long time.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />so bottom line, do i have a plan? the best i can tell you there is i am 100% committed to continuing to grow and heal and be the best wife i can be.<hr /></blockquote>Good start on a plan, but commitment is only part of it. You need details about how situations in your marriage will be handled in the future. How disagreements will be addressed. How you would like him to show you his love for you. How you plan to show him you love, value, and respect him. You need a plan to lead to honesty so that he is NOT guessing about how you feel, what you think, or that you love him. Those are the plans I am talking about.

FL, when you tell him, tell him why you are telling him: you want to be happy with him, you want a long marriage to him, you are committed to working on this with him, you want a "stable foundation" for this marriage and for the other parts of your life.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

tommorow is the only good day i could talk to him this week. wed and thurs he is working and i don't want to drop this on him when he has a photo shoot later that same day.

jl, you post so much at times it is more than i can take in. especially today. i really cannot see how i am going to do this tommorow. and yet i seem to be planning to do it just the same.

the one point that sticks out the most in your last post is that i do seem to set him up for failure sometimes. i don't mean to, at least not consiously. the laying down to talk thing... i know he knew i had something on my mind. i did tell him that when i asked him to lay down with me. but then i didn't start talking for a long enough period of time to where he fell asleep. given how tired he was, that is understandable.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I can see him thinking "I can't do anything right", "EVerything I say seems to be wrong", "I cannot make her happy". <hr /></blockquote>yes, i have heard those words from his mouth a few times(understatement). but here is a good question. what is going to keep me from still being that same person? a person that is not capable of being more straight forward and sure enough of herself to speak her thoughts/feelings clearly. am i really capable of being in a healthy relationship?? and if not, why am i about to tear his world apart??

i'm going to sound so lame. as much as i try, i look at my actions and have to admit. i am a self-centered person. i cannot consistently put him first. i really want to do it but my actions do not paint a pretty picture. i'm going to the book store now.

FL,

Yes, you are a selfish person. I suspect your H is a bit as well. We all are. But, what will help you not "trap" him, is for you to tell him that is what you did and apologize for it. AND ask HIM to tell you when he feels he was "trapped". Then instead of arguing about it or even denying it, talk about it. What were you feeling and thinking, what was he hearing. This is part of putting your marriage on a FIRM foundation.

You telling him what you are about to, should come with you explaining what you want and hope to get out of this marriage, and what you are willing to do and give to this marriage.

FL, this is call growing and learning <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> . No one is perfect at this stuff , but you will get better as you do it, as you get older, as your marriage matures.

FL, I am sure you are afraid, and you have reason to be. But, when you admit to yourself that you are selfish, that you want things done for you, THEN you can admit that he probably needs things done for him. And you two NEGOTIATE, POJA, what, how, when, where, who, etc.

Interestingly FL, I think you will get the one thing you really want and need, if you GIVE rather than take. You will get his love and support. ALL of your manuervering, all of the "traps", none of those things have worked have they? No! You have tried most of the ways to have your selfish needs met by H, but one. Giving to your H, so that he will willingly meet your needs. Interesting isn't it? You may have to go the opposite way to get where you want to be.

Don't panic. You don't have all of the answers. Certainly no one here does. So go with honesty, listening, talking, discussing, but do it with an open and generous heart. BE GRACEFUL FL.

You will do well.

God Bless,

JL

I’m going to get myself so flamed…..

I never told. He knew I was grieving, I cried all the time, I was on antidepressants but he was adamant that he didn’t want to know. All he wanted was my recommitment to him. I took the cowards way out and took him at his word.

I can’t say that what I did was the right thing to do but I can say three years later our marriage is better than ever. It wasn’t easy and maybe not as fair to him as it things should have been but we both had agreed we had a terrible marriage. If I had told him about the affair then the whole blame on our bad marriage would have been on that rather that the fact that we both behaved crappy towards each other. Rather than the affair we focused on how we lost track of each other and regaining the love we once felt. We both new the type of marriage we wanted and we made that our goal.

So there’s the pro- he doesn’t know. He will never have to face that hurt of what I did to him because he won’t know. I’ll be the first to admit that I’m a pretty prideful person. Maybe I should have been humbled by what I did but by not telling I was able to escape that. Maybe not telling was more for me so I could save my pride. He would have forgiven me if I had told but by not telling I didn’t have to lower myself and plead for his forgiveness.

There are definitely cons - there will always be a secret between us. There’s always the danger that I will forget the pain I caused myself and do it again. There’s the worry that someday I will run into them (his wife found out) and they will tell my husband.

If I had to do it all over again I still wouldn’t tell. I can’t say it’s the right decision but knowing myself I know I won’t ever tell.

Originally posted by Endevor:
I’m going to get myself so flamed…..

Not so much of a flame .... but one of my truths ...

I could not be your friend in real life.

Not in any real sense. Because I would not trust you to do the right thing when the right thing might be embarrasing for you.

I would not trust you to honestly own up to any mistakes you might make in your treatment of me (if we were were known to each other in real life).

Your values are too far from mine for us to be friends.

This is not a flame, but a simple truth about myself.

What I hold dear is not the same as what you hold dear.

So, you are somewhat of a dangerous person for me, and I would not befrend you because of my truths about what I value in life.

You may be self-selecting limited superficial relationships throughout your life. And this is acceptable to you, but I would be selected out.

No flame, just what is real.

Pep

I never told. He knew I was grieving, I cried all the time, I was on antidepressants but he was adamant that he didn’t want to know.
I don't understand this.

If he didn't know about the affair, how could he say he didn't want to know about it?

And just because you didn't tell him does not mean he doens't know about it. He probably does know, just not the specifics and he's just as afraid as you about discussing it.

Endevor,

thanks for putting yourself out there even though you may get flamed.

if you H gave you reasons to believe he did not want to know, he only wanted you to recommit to him and move forward then why do you feel you took the coward way out? Sounds like you did the right thing to me (now maybe I am going to get flamed more!!) The difference for me is, my H has given me every reason to believe, he would want to know.

I am very happy to hear your marriage is better than ever!! keep smiling.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> And just because you didn't tell him does not mean he doens't know about it. He probably does know, just not the specifics and he's just as afraid as you about discussing it.
<hr /></blockquote>i think you are making a assumption. i also think he may very well know, and if he prefers to not focus on that, and to focus on the goal of rebuilding the marriage, there is nothing wrong with that choice. it does not mean he is afraid to discuss, it may be that he just wants to move past it. i really believe this would be my response too. i know it is not that of my H so I am not saying i am re-thinking what i need to do. But it is concievable that some people are totally OK with not explicitly talking about it. there is nothing wrong with that choice that does not make them unhealthy. everyone has the right to his/her opinion. for me, if roles were reversed, if the affair was over and he found his way back to me and improvements wer being made, i would totally move on with out discussion too. Now if they were not dealing with their marriage problems then i would say that is a bad thing. but if they are, good for them.

endevor, again i say, thanks for putting yourself out there. it is clear pep would not want to be your friend, but i would <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> i really hope you see this response and not just pep's. (sorry pep, this is just my opinion, i am fine with you having yours too, i just dont want anyone taking grief for putting themselves out there for my benefit.)

one last thing Endevor <blockquote>quote:<hr /> There’s always the danger that I will forget the pain I caused myself and do it again. <hr /></blockquote>I see you have been a member since may 2001, if you are still reading/posting here, i am confident, you will not do this again.

i think you are making a assumption.
Since he hasn’t posted here, of course it’s an assumption.

i also think he may very well know, and if he prefers to not focus on that, and to focus on the goal of rebuilding the marriage, there is nothing wrong with that choice.
No, there is nothing wrong with that.

it does not mean he is afraid to discuss
When I write “afraid, I mean that he probably has no idea on how to approach it because it is pretty much an unthinkable act.

Most betrayed spouses will tell you that before the affair, they thought there is NO WAY in the world their spouse would do this.
Then when it happens, they look back and said they “knew” what was happening but did not “believe” it was happening, as in “too afraid” to think about it.

it may be that he just wants to move past it.
Possibly. It happens.
Some people “put up” with affairs as long as it doesn’t affect their lives too much. They know it happens but they turn a blind eye to it.

I still don’t understand this comment though.
He knew I was grieving, I cried all the time, I was on antidepressants but he was adamant that he didn’t want to know.
He knew she was grieving about what?
What did he say he didn’t want to know about?

Finally learning,
On the 20th you said.......... <blockquote>quote:<hr /> whenever i express any sort of neg feeling he takes it personally, gets defensive and mad/aggrevated with me. <hr /></blockquote>Guess what......... that is the way most men take negative talk. They take it as a personal attack.
You need to read the book "Men are from Mars...Venus". This author does a great job describing how men and women think and communicate differently.

cwmac

cwmac,

thanks for pointing that out. that is hard for me to relate to (being female, i guess) but that certainly does seem to his response. at one point, because in counsoling he acknowledge that he does jump to conclusion that anything negative is his fault, we agreed that if i were to say the words "you did nothing wrong" at the start of a conversation about something that was bothering me, he would be reminded to try to keep off the defensive response. and i must admit, when i did that, it helped him, i realize now that i stopped doing that, i will have to remember to do that again.

i have never read that book. i have heard good things about it. i get the impression it is a light hearted book but it has some good points. is that true? that might make it kindof fun to read together. assuming he will want to read anything with me after tommorow.

chris, i agree, the stmt <blockquote>quote:<hr />He knew I was grieving, I cried all the time, I was on antidepressants but he was adamant that he didn’t want to know.
<hr /></blockquote>is not very clear as to how she knew that. and if you think about it, it does not make sense, if my spouse was upset, i would, out of love, want to understand why so i could help. but maybe that is not for us to question? of course i guess all that is posted on this board is open to questioning, and that is how it should be. i guess i just didn't feel comfortable with her being "flamed" at all on my account (i.e. she posted to give me support). i am probably extremely freaked right now because of what tommorow is going to bring. H is out tonight having drinks with a friend. I am very grateful to have it be just me and the kids tonight. speaking of which, i better get back downstairs and see how the homework is progressing.

Originally posted by FinallyLearning:

endevor, again i say, thanks for putting yourself out there. it is clear pep would not want to be your friend, but i would <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> i really hope you see this response and not just pep's. (sorry pep, this is just my opinion, i am fine with you having yours too, i just dont want anyone taking grief for putting themselves out there for my benefit.)

What I wrote was a comment about myself and something I have learned ... about myself.

If someone is continually dishonest with other people, they have the potential be dishonest with me as well.

Someone who commits to a lifetime of fraud toward their spouse is not likely to be trustworthy in less important relationships.

There are many people who can be friendly, fun and agreeable but not necessarily a true friend ... I wouldn't trust any woman (or man ) who was willing to participate in a fraudulant snowjob over their spouse .... Why would you?

I am not saying I dislike Endevor .... she is likely very sweet and kind and good in many ways.

My standard for a true friend is someone who is brave and honest. Someone who is revealed by their friendship.

I comment about this ... to make her (and you) look at yourselves. The qualities you live up to and the qualities you currently lack.

If you choose to live a dishonest marriage, it becomes part of your character. Something you accept about yourself.

We are all growing, stretching, reaching for our better selves. Not our most popular selves, but our better selves.

You and Endevor are struggling. I appreciate a struggle between good and evil. Between courage and cowardice. Between hiding our true selves or taking the risk for intimacy.

You see, my view of this is that lying to someone you claim to love is the opposite of intimacy.

An intimate friendship is impossible with a comfortable liar.

See what I mean?

Pep

[ February 23, 2004, 09:37 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]

This is Finally Learning’s thread not mine so I really don’t feel like rehashing my story. Suffice it to say that it was a terrible time in our marriage. He would come home everyday and hide in the bottle. He knew I hated the sight and smell of beer and was very sad about the state of our marriage. I had told him I didn’t love him and was planning on moving out. He said he would stop drinking if I would stay so I stayed but it wasn’t easy and he knew it. I say it was the coward’s way out because as Pep so eloquently put it, it didn’t force the marriage to a greater state of honesty and openness. That’s okay I’m happy with my decision. My husband, who has been plagued by self-doubts and depression our whole married life seems like a pretty happy stable guy. My children are happy, healthy, and thriving.

I told you my story Finally Learning because you asked for opinions. There are very few people, especially here, that have made the decision I did so I felt you should see the flip side of the coin. Pep’s comments were rather tame from what I was expecting.

… And Pep this board is anonymous for a reason. But in real life I could be your best friend, your sister, your cousin, your work-mate and you would never know. You cannot be with your friends 24/7 and you cannot know what sort of tragedy/activities goes on in their lives. Every person has the ability or potential to be dishonest with the ones in their life. Just because you don't know about it doesn't meen one of your friends hasn't done the same thing to you. I’ve been terribly hurt and betrayed by people I thought were my very best friends in the whole world. I’ve also found unbelievable kindness and friendship in the most unlikely of sources.

i guess i just didn't feel comfortable with her being "flamed" at all on my account
She was not flamed at all.

He knew I was grieving, I cried all the time, I was on antidepressants but he was adamant that he didn’t want to know.

is not very clear as to how she knew that. and if you think about it, it does not make sense, if my spouse was upset, i would, out of love, want to understand why
My point is that she didn't finish the statement.
He didn't want to know what?
Why she was grieving?
Or he didn't want to know about the affair. Meaning he did know about it but didn't want to discuss it.

Enough of that though.

The title of the book makes it sound light hearted, but it isn't. The real meaning behind the title is to point out that men & women think, process problems & communicate so differently that at times it seems as though we are two seperate races. Check that make it two seperate life forms.

Reading the book will help you understand him better and empathise with his feelings and hopefully vice verse.

As you prepare to tell him about the A, it will also tell you how he may react. He may go off to his "cave" to brood or study the problem or examine the details of the A and how it related to his vision of your M. Don't be surprised if this is his reaction. Don't punish him for doing so. Instead when he is ready to "return" to you accept him with open arms.

The book also does a good job telling men that they should not try and "fix" a situation when a woman comes to him with an issue. By solving the problem the man feels as though he has done the right thing but in fact by quickly going from point A to point B has in fact he has not given her what she needs. She needs someone to talk to air out the issue. The process of discussing the issue in itself helps her throught it.

Unfortunately I'm not doing it justice.

My W told me the truth about her A 18 months after I discovered her relationship with the OM. At the time she told me it had been over for 12 months but because I had certain circumstantial evidence as well as some pure evidence I couldn't seem to drop it. Months would go by and recovery would seem as though it was progressing only to take a step back. Finally she told me. Although I was 90% prepared for the PA truth, it still hit me like a ton of bricks.

Try also to minimize the number of people who know. My W has a close friend that knows and I can't stand to even look at her or be in the same room with her because of the feelings of humiliation that are reignited when I see her. Leave it between you, your H and your counselor.

I might suggest that you tell your H at the counselor's office. For privacy the counselor should leave but then be available to talk to your H. Just an idea. I was told at 4:00 am after a night of "two steps back."

Good luck to you!!

cwmac

You have to tell! Otherwise you really don't have a marriage anyway. And having been screwed over by my best friend i can still honestly say the truth is way better than the deceit. Even if my husband up and leaves me, at least I'll know what I have in my life is real. No one wants a life that isn't real and could you imagine the pain that will occur if after years of deceit the truth finally comes out? Take him away for the week. Spend a few days showing how much you care for him. Start talking, tell me you have something important to tell him but you don't want it it to ruin your marriage. Tell him all you have been doing for him has been real and an expression of your true feelings for him. Then tell him. Tell him it's over(the affair) and you are so sorry that you didn't even want to tell him, that you were willing to live with the pain of holding it inside of you to spare him the pain,but you realize he deserves the truth then cry like a baby and beg his forgiveness. Tell him you'll go to marriage counseling and do what ever it takes to keep your marriage together. If he leaves he may come back, if he does you can really work on a real marriage. And who knows he may have a deep dark secret of his own to tell that he has been holding onto so he doesn't hurt you....

rebeccarachel,

thanks for your reply/support. I know you are right. I want to tell him very much. I want to be able to be 100% honest and open with him. I do not want to keep him in a position where he could find out later on his own and have the additional hurt dumped on him that would cause. I am glad I did not tell him yesterday, I was not really prepared enough yet. And this is too important for me to do poorly. Getting support from all of you that have gone thru this, seeing it thru your eyes helps me immensly. This is why I keep coming back here. And this is why I know I will find the strength to tell him and to support him as he comes to terms with it all, and if he still wants our marriage to continue, I am confident I will be able to get it right this time. About 17yrs too late, but better late than never. thanks again.

[ March 10, 2004, 07:12 PM: Message edited by: chris37 ]