I'm letting go, but not sure what to do......

Hi all,

Well, my H knows I love him and he know I want to save my M. But he doesn't know what he wants. Half the time he wants to divorce, the other half of the time he doesn't want to leave. He says he loves me, but doesn't know if we can work this out.

I decided today to help him to find a place to stay. Instead of trying to convince him of all the reasons to stay, I'm going to just let him go without any more fight. I looked in the paper and on the net for him this morning. I found a few places. He is going to check them out. I've got to stop trying to control the situation. I'm just going to continue to let him know I love him and to show him I am changing as a person.

I just wish that someone could convince him that our M could be better than ever. I guess he will have to discover that on his own. I'm pretting convinced this isn't about OW. Confiding in her was wrong, but he was in such pain from all the repeated times I turned my back on him. Once when he asked me if I was "in love" with him I told him I did love him, but no I didn't have that in love feeling anymore. That statement coupled with all my turning away from him, no matter what my reasons were, has made him numb.

Anyway, I guess I need to just let him find himself and show him that I love him, can be here for him, and that I have changed.

[ March 28, 2004, 12:00 AM: Message edited by: wontgiveupyet ]

Wow! Do you really have yourself together that well?

It's not your fault he had an A(I think you know this). But you have admitted you were wrong for some of the things you did. Now, he needs to get his head out of his @$$ and pay attention. How long has it been since Dday?

I don't know if you should be looking for him a place. He needs to do his own work if that's what he wants. It's also possible ammo down the road for him to fire back at you. "Well, you didn't want me here. You even looked for me a place to go." I'm not trying to be harsh, but us men/ws/whatever say and do a lot of stupid when are head are up our.... well, I think you get the point.

But it sounds like YOU might be getting to a good spot in working out everything in your head. Just don't go to extremes with it. It's easy for some people(Looking in mirror) to push blame from one extreme to another.

Wow, I'm really impressed with the way you've explained you feelings. I'm thinking we have a lot in common in this. Well, maybe not me and you. But the situation.... I'm sorry it sucks <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Wow! Do you really have yourself together that well?
<hr /></blockquote>Thanks BAM, no I really don't. I go up and down, sometimes several times a day. Just this morning I was pleading with him to stay. It just became so obvious that he doesn't want to. I think I'm pushing him farther away the more I try to convince him. He keeps saying that I'm not regarding his feelings and I'm making it all about how I feel, so maybe just offering him support will show him I care about his happiness, which I do, no matter how much it is killing me inside.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />How long has it been since Dday?
<hr /></blockquote>My first d-day was July 03, but he explained it all away and he and the OW promised they would no longer let their R be of a personal nature. For months I had the suspicion it was continuing and me and my H would get into fights, further justifying his EA and our inability to communicate. In Jan. 04, I found cell phone bills that proved the extent of their EA.

In case your not familiar with my story, I had an A 5 1/2 years ago. Obviously we never truly recovered from that, hence all our problems today. He's admitted though his faults and has begun to accept some responsibility for the state of our M. The thing is he truly believes I would be happier with someone else and believes that he can never meet my needs. I know this is not true, but he has to be willing to do it.

Wow...what a position to be in.

I hope you stay as strong as you sound now...cause you sound very strong.

Anyway..have you thought about the possibilty of this being a test from him to you?

Maybe not even a concious one.

Let me explain...I remember at one point my H (while deep in fogland and land of temporarily insane) actually got angry at me in teh middle of his A because I couldn't tell what was going on. He was actually mad at me that he was pulling this over on me. He said it was like a cry for help and I didn't hear him (even though he acknowledges he was one sneaky, manipulative guy during that time).

Is it possible that somewhere inside of your H his inner child is desparately calling to you for help...which is exhibited in his wishwashy manner???

Anyone else out there think this is a possibility?

If I were you I would try to get an appt with a therapist who specializes in inner child issues and run your story adn your H behaviour by them and get some advice.

I'm positive that this isn't "just" about the OW..I've mentioned before that it certainly sounds like he has other issues going on...he sounds so much like a lost little boy.

However, lost little boys usually turn to someone to help or meet their needs...I would still follow through on that PI to make sure it's not OW he turns to.

Maybe deep down he really wants you to make a stand for him.

Have you ever had a really bad day...feel really out of sorts, grouchy...don't even know what's wrong....know your acting irrationally but can't stop?? I have I've gotten upset with my H on so many occasions and when I do...I sometimes push him away hard...he tries to hold me..I say don't touch me...he says let me help...I say leave me alone....ALL ALONG WHAT I REALLY WANT IS FOR HIM NOT TO LISTEN TO MY PUSHING HIM AWAY...WANT HIM TO GRAB ME AND HOLD ON TIGHT NO MATTER WHAT I SAY OR DO. MY ADULT IS OUT OF CONTROL AND MY INNER CHILD IS IN CONTROL.

Could this be your H now???

If so do some research on inner child...in recovery Kat used to post alot about this.

During IC our therapist worked really hard with my H and myself to help us understand that everyone is made up of differnt parts...logical/compassionate adult, critical doubter and inner child. Understanding this and how to recognize who's in control of us at any given time is key to getting control back.

Just something else to think about....

I think you are missing the point. I think he's trying to tell you that he wants to do this on his own. Don't "help" him find a place to live, let him do it. He needs to think of what he's doing as he's "looking", for a new place to live.
You are rescuing this man from all of the consequences of his A.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I've got to stop trying to control the situation. <hr /></blockquote>By looking to find a place for him, this is exactly what you are doing.

Let him go, help him move, say goodbye and let him see you go on with your life. If you never give this man something to think about, he's going to keep thinking the same garbage he's been stuck thinking for the last 8 months.

ditto mrrrrrthrrddd

Allow him to do this, don't hinder and don't help. In fact, make sure you are looking out for YOUR interests. Be reasonable but firm with any money decisions.

WAT

I agree with both forevertogether and mthrrhbard...although they are saying somewhat different things! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

inner child...also called vulnerability...took me a long time to recognize that that was what I did too...accept the vulnerability, face it and hey presto...you don't do that crap any more...

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> It just became so obvious that he doesn't want to. I think I'm pushing him farther away the more I try to convince him. He keeps saying that I'm not regarding his feelings and I'm making it all about how I feel, <hr /></blockquote>woof...almost word for word from my H...I wasn't pleading but...hmmm...explaining?

let him do what he wants but be loving...don't plead, don't cry, just reiterate that you love him and want to be M...SHOW him your changes, don't discuss them...he's waffling because he's not sure, not sure if he trusts, not sure what he wants...whatever...

be strong...I told my H that I was strong enough to let him go...that pretty much ended the convos about him leaving...do you know what I mean? I wasn't supporting him leaving but I made it clear that I would neither prevent him from going, nor would I collapse if he left...it nicely put the ball squarely in his court, which is where your ball needs to go...I mean in your H's court not mine! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> The thing is he truly believes I would be happier with someone else and believes that he can never meet my needs. <hr /></blockquote>a strong, happy, confident you is the best thing he can see right now...be upbeat...you can do it! awed

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Is it possible that somewhere inside of your H his inner child is desparately calling to you for help...which is exhibited in his wishwashy manner???
<hr /></blockquote>I'm not sure about this forever. But it could be because I know he never grew up feeling much love from his parents. I know this just from the things he has told me. Also, his parents don't really have a good marriage. They fought all the time and he says he used to wish they would have divorced. He is not close with his parents even today.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />ALL ALONG WHAT I REALLY WANT IS FOR HIM NOT TO LISTEN TO MY PUSHING HIM AWAY...WANT HIM TO GRAB ME AND HOLD ON TIGHT NO MATTER WHAT I SAY OR DO. MY ADULT IS OUT OF CONTROL AND MY INNER CHILD IS IN CONTROL.

Could this be your H now???
<hr /></blockquote>I don't think so. I think he truly wants me to let go. He thinks I am holding on just because another woman came into the picture. That opened my eyes to the state of our M, but I honestly do not feel threatened by her. I know my H loves me. I just think he doesn't want to be hurt again and he thinks I will do that.

As for me, I feel just as you described sometimes. When I stormed away from him in the past, what I really wanted and needed was for him to come running after me and hold me tight. Now, when I am in the throes of an emotional breakdown, I just want him to hold me and comfort me even if I know it isn't going to change his mind. I just need the comfort.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> By looking to find a place for him, this is exactly what you are doing. <hr /></blockquote>You know, when I re-read my post, I thought how stupid that sounded because it did seem like I was trying to control that. In actuality though, he wanted me to quit battling him about it and try to support him. I was only trying to help because he had so many things to do and I wanted him to see that I'm not going to fight him on this. He knows where I stand and what I want, but this is about him.

I was also thinking that maybe he wants to leave to see how he'll feel not having me. Maybe he wants to see if he'll miss me. Since he's feeling so numb to my expressions of love and my attempts to fulfill his needs, maybe he wants to see if he'll miss those things. Does that make sense to anyone?

He filled out the EN questionnaire and we started to go over them. Funny thing is the only need of mine he has been fulfilling is SF. He doesn't have any interest in fulfilling my needs. He thinks I am fulfilling his only because I am trying to hang on. That may be in a small part true, but also because I want to show him that I CAN and I want him to realize that I do love him. My efforts are genuine, but he doesn't see that. Maybe that's another reason why he wants to move out, to see if I am still going to try or for how long. Maybe its a test to see if I really do love him. I just don't know.

Good move. Wish him well and help him pack. I suspect it is the first step in the recovery of your marriage. Just lingering on in limboland forever is doing but destroying yourself. This is a positive step in the right direction and I think it will wake him up.

Melody, what I'm not sure of is how to act while we are separated. I know I should show that I am confident and doing well, but how much affection should I show him? Should I continue to try to fill his needs?

I am pretty confident about OW being out of the picture, there has been no indication that he has been in contact. OW's H is actually coaching their s's LL team, so they are in a lot of contact. He told my friend that OW is actually the last thing on his mind right now. He is just so emotionally torn about himself and our M.

Back to what I was talking about in the 1st paragraph, should I be somewhat distant or unavailable? Or will this have a negative effect on our trying to rebuild? Should I let him be the one to make the first moves, or will he see this as me not really caring? Its just all so confusing.

Should I just quit stressing about it and take it day by day, with no set plan? Any advice?

Why wouldn't you just go into Plan B? If Plan A doesn't work after a period of time, it actually becomes destructive. I think you are far past that point. Am I missing something here?

But he wants to build a foundation, a friendship, sort of start over and see where it goes from there. If I go to plan B, how can I do that?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by wontgiveupyet:
 But he wants to build a foundation, a friendship, sort of start over and see where it goes from there. If I go to plan B, how can I do that? <hr /></blockquote>How can he build a "friendship," much less his marriage, if he is not there? That does nothing to build a close marriage. How can he build a "friendship" if he is still in contact with the OW? You are not his "friend," but his wife.

Nid, it is unrealistic to believe that you can "start over." That is fog talk. If he really wants to work on the marriage, he should stay home and go into counseling with you. But I don't see him willing to do that. Once again, his words just don't match his actions.

He has had plenty of time to work on this "friendship", but I don't see him doing that. Instead I see him trying to move out.

Nid, please go by his actions and not his words.

[ March 27, 2004, 08:53 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]

He says he doesn't want to stay because we always fight, that we can't communicate without me being hurt by his honest feelings.

He also says he needs space, some peace from all the stress of our M.

How will moving out change any of that?

I would point out that your fights are about his relationship with the OW and his dishonesty, which he refuses to end. How will moving out solve that?

Unless he stops doing the thing that is causing the fights, moving out will help nothing. If he stopped doing the things that caused the fights, wouldn't that give him some peace?

Has he sent a no contact letter to the OW?

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I would point out that your fights are about his relationship with the OW and his dishonesty, which he refuses to end. How will moving out solve that?
<hr /></blockquote>I have done this. He doesn't really agree. He says he needs a break.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Unless he stops doing the thing that is causing the fights, moving out will help nothing. If he stopped doing the things that caused the fights, wouldn't that give him some peace?
<hr /></blockquote>He says he doesn't want to offer me any false hope that we will work things out. He feels that by staying he is doing that whenever he is nice to me.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Has he sent a no contact letter to the OW? <hr /></blockquote>No. He will not do this. He says he still needs to be able to communicate with her about LL.

Melody, I know none of this makes sense to anyone, not even me. But it makes sense to him. I don't know if anyone can get through to him to see it another way. Nothing will make him see that we have the potential of having a great marriage. It makes me think he is just trying to let me down easy, to smooth things out, and then ask for a divorce when I am less emotional. Maybe he just really doesn't want to be with me.

Nid..I don't think any of us can give you clear advise until we know For Sure if the OW is still in the picture.

Everything he says now is so typical for a WS still in an A and fogland...scary part is that you are showing signs of being in the fog with him. You are letting him suck you into his temporary insanity...you are letting an insane person call all the shots.

No matter what else you do hire the PI to find out if OW still in picture or not!!

If she is...go Plan B.

If she's not...put all your efforts into getting him into see an IC. A good one.

If she's DEFINITELY not in picture...then you can rest a little easier if he goes forward with moving out and you can tell him that you want him here...you are his friend but as long as OW not in picture AND he agrees to see an IC...you'll do your best to support him. However, you should set clear boundaries of what this support means...you don't want him to gave the best of single and married life..else why would he want to come home???

As for EN's..meeting each others when you're in the middle of all this trauma is tough...however, if you go into it with the attitude that you are going to do this...it becomes fun..really fast. We made charts, graded each other had fun with it...like a mini competition..it gave us moments of humor and laughs during all the trauma.

And that is exactly why you need to go into Plan B. Plan A has not worked, Nid. You will never pull him off that fence if you just keep doing what you are doing. You are just giving him more time. You can see for yourself it is not working. And of course, he wants to keep you waiting in the wings, doesn't EVERY WS? But it is not until the BS takes matters into their hands that things start changing.

Doing Plan A this long is only destructive. And I don't care what he says, you can't go by what he says. He is a confused individual who doesn't know what he wants. Quit helping him sit on the fence, Nid. When he moves out, go into Plan B.

I would also point out that he has told you ALL ALONG that his "contact" with the OW is purely professional and it hasn't been. Any contact is continuation of the affair no matter what deceptive name he calls it.

So, I take it the board president isn't going to do anything about this?

I understand exactly where you and H are at. Your H is saying all the same things my H said. Men are simple, when he's telling you where his head is at, leave it at that, don't read anything else into it. It is what it is. He really needs to be on his own if your marriage is going to get to the point of recovery. Yes, he needs to see if he is going to miss you.

My H had the same problems with his parents and the lack of love he experienced growing up. IC helped him with this. It was a big factor affecting him internally and how he saw ME. I had a tendency to be my H's "mother". We married very young (24) and he acted like a kid and I fell into the "mother" thing. Feelings get displaced when there are deep issues from childhood that need resolved. Now I DO NOT mother.

Your H will not realize what he is giving up until he leaves. More than anything else you must do everything to rule out contact with OW. There can be NO contact. If he insists, then you MUST Plan B. He has to know how serious you are. You will not get a recovered marriage if there is contact. I have no idea how you or a PI is going to be able to rule out telephone contact since your H has discovered the secrecy a calling card provides.

I'd say for now, let him move out, give him a few good weeks without much contact with you to see what he does with his free time ( all the while having the PI on him)and to give him the OPPORTUNITY to miss you. If and when he gets into counseling himself and if and when the issue of contact with OW gets ruled out, then you can think about some kind of contact with him yourself. JMHO, as always.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Your H will not realize what he is giving up until he leaves. More than anything else you must do everything to rule out contact with OW. There can be NO contact. <hr /></blockquote>I will definitely do this. He is really trying to show me that he isn't talking to her. Yesterday at the ball field he asked me if I could go pick up his suits before the store closed. I knew if I did, the game would finish before I returned and OW was on the next field. The thought of him being there and her so close by made the bile in my stomach rise. I told him I was really uncomfortable with it and told him why. He said, no problem, I understand. I can get them next weekend. Whew, I really wanted to do it for him but it left me with so much anxiety I knew I couldn't. I was glad he understood and took it so well.

We did a ton of talking yesterday about options of moving out: a friend, an apt. alone, his mom, or an extended stay hotel for a month. He is thinking about which will be best. He doesn't want to do the friend because he'll want to party. He doesn't want to do his mom because she'll drive him nuts. So it will probably be one of the other two options. We talked about a lot of feelings we were both having. It was a pleasant conversation. Some of his feelings were hard to swallow, but I did without breaking down.

We went to church yesterday. The gospel was so fitting. It was about the adulterous woman brought before Jesus and he said let he who has no sin cast the 1st stone. It was all about forgiveness and love. My H had his arm around me during part of the mass. We also noticed in the bulletin two counselors that the church has and my H said he would look into them. I think a Christian counselor would be best because they are going to emphasize reconciliation, don't you think.

I also finished reading SAA and the chapter about Recovery and resentment and restoring trust really hit home. This is where we went wrong so long ago. My H said he would read it.

My H also mentioned yesterday about a conversation we had long ago about an old boyfriend of mine. I had said that while I was with him I always wondered if there was someone else for me. My H says he thinks that I feel that way about him. I said that couldn't be farther from the truth. I told him that the old boyfriend and I were best friends, but I never had any passion for him and never was "in love" with him. Yes I loved and cared about him a lot, but I couldn't force the feeling of desire. I told him I stayed with him so long because I tried to convince myself it was good because he was such a special person. But finally, I let him go. It was unfair to him. He deserved to have someone who truly was in love with him. With my H, the passion was there immmediately, the "in love" was there soon after. I gave up everything to be with him because my family disapproved of him (we are different ethnicities). I gave up my very close family relationship (parents) for HIM because I loved him so much. I said to him you want friendship from me, we can definitely build that. You can't force someone to feel attracted to another person. We have the attraction, the passion, the desire, we can build the friendship.

I think that conversation gave him some things to ponder. We'll see.

bump

See, now here is where the cynic in me comes out.

I think your H was quite clever with the "Can you go pick up my suits?" request. Why in the world couldn't you pick them up after work today or later this evening? Why yesterday, right before the game is going to end? Nid, I think he's smart enough to realize that if he gets defensive your radar is just going to go up. I think he wanted to talk to her and he came up with a really ingenious way to send you on an errand. He knows you are working overtime to please him and I bet he didn't even consider that you might tell him "no" to such a simple request. However, your gut led you to do and say the right things. That is what is important.If you had gone to do what he had asked, there he would have had the perfect opportunity for contact that could go undiscovered. I think your H is a very smart and manipulative WS. My gut doesn't trust him as far as I could throw him. You did a great job of being in control of that situation and working it for everyone's good.

Honestly, nid, for your sake I hope I am 100% wrong. I guess I've just seen way to many senarios in the 4 1/2 years I've been around here. Sheesh, sounds like it's time for me to blow this joint! LOL! Did the priest saying mass emphasize in his homily that the main tenent of the gospel message is to go and sin NO MORE? I hope so!

Nid...please hire the PI or tap the phones now!

I can't think of a single good reason why you should wait until he is out.

The sooner you know for sure they sooner that you can come up with a definitive game plan.

If he's still continuing the A with her (I know you think he doesn't have a way but we all know how sneaky these fogbound WS's are) then you can confront him and see what happens and go Plan B if necessary.

If he's not...you'll have a little more peace of mind.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I think your H was quite clever with the "Can you go pick up my suits?" request. Why in the world couldn't you pick them up after work today or later this evening? Why yesterday, right before the game is going to end? <hr /></blockquote>This particular store is only open on Sat. and Sun. and was closing at 6:00. It was 5:20 and we thought we would be going another inning. By the time the game was over, we wouldn't have had much time to pick them up and he would have had to wait until next weekend.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Did the priest saying mass emphasize in his homily that the main tenent of the gospel message is to go and sin NO MORE? I hope so!
<hr /></blockquote>Yes, he did.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />please hire the PI or tap the phones now!

I can't think of a single good reason why you should wait until he is out.
<hr /></blockquote>I know, but I just can't see that he is right now. I mean, we were together all weekend. He goes to bed when I do. And trust me I sleep so lightly now, that I know his every move. During the week, he is home early from work and we're together all evening. This is why I think its best to just wait until he moves out. He will have more freedom and if he is still seeing her, he won't think he has to be so careful.

Ok, so that makes more sense.

I do think you should wait until he moves out to do the PI thing. Hopefully they can tap the phone wherever he ends up staying. There is no use wasting your money now if he's with you all of the time.

I vote for the extended stay hotel. I think he'll figure things out before a seven month lease would be up.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I vote for the extended stay hotel. I think he'll figure things out before a seven month lease would be up.
<hr /></blockquote>This is what I'm hoping he'll decide too. The financial aspect of all of this is bothering him I think.

One thing I talked about with him yesterday was the fact that we are finally in a place financially to do so many things that we never could do before, things that would build love through recreation, time together etc. and here we are splitting up. We never used to have the extra money before to go on the nice vacations, or just do things that we like to do (Pro basketball games, etc). We never spent enough time together just the two of us, building things in common. Any time we spent was with our son and his activities. His prior jobs always took up so much of our time at home and he was always so stressed. Now he has a job that is so much less stressful and so much more money. We are at a place where we can devote time to our R and we are splitting up. It is so sad and he thinks it is too late. He doesn't realize that our lack of a "friendship", really the lack of love, is because we never devoted enough time to eachother. I tried to explain to him that we can be compatible (he thinks we're not) if only we begin to find things that we can enjoy doing together. These things will also provide a basis for conversations that we have been lacking.

I'm hoping my points in our conversation made some sense to him.

WG, I can see how similar our situation is. Do you have children? How do you deal with them? My hardest part is about children. I don't know what I am going to do.

LNH, I have a 10 year old son. He is upset, but doesn't really know what to say to his dad. I just tell him to give his dad his honest feelings, that his dad needs to know how he feels. He's getting better at it and has told his dad he doesn't want him to leave. I worry about him resenting his dad, so I'm careful to explain that his dad is confused and needs time to sort out his feelings. At the same time, I've told him he must express his honest feelings to him. I have told him of the consequences of his moving out. We may work it out, or his dad may decide he wants a divorce. I ask him how he feels about that prospect and it is very disturbing to him. So I've told him he needs to let his dad know that as well. I don't know if I'm saying the right things, but I am being honest with him about the situation and about my own feelings. Also, I'm showing him a lot of love and affection, nothing new there though.

Nid,

One thing. Please stop trying to educate him. I guarantee you that every time you think you are giving him a nugget to ponder, it's a love bust.

This makes you appear to be his mother, trying to convince him, make sure he doesn't miss a single point to consider etc. He's a big boy. You don't need to do this. It's counterproductive. Stop having relationship talks unless he brings something up, then keep it brief and NO EDUCATING. He's already said he "doesn't know" many, many times. Let him be. It looks desperate, needy and clingy when you say things to try to get him to "wake up". It's overwhelming to a WS, makes them feel like they need to get away to get that "break" even more. He'll get it, he just needs to see for himself what it feels like to be without you. You must let him feel it nid. If you try to save him from that, he'll just need to do it in another few years and you'll be back in the same spot all over again.

Mtr,

I see your point. I guess i tried to educate him too much and being a mom too. He told me that he was afraid that things will go back to before. The nice me will go back to the old one. How do I act to let him feel it. It is soooooo hard.

Hmm..I usually agree with Mthrrhbard but not so sure on the educating point.

If I preached to my H it failed...if I talked to him as a friend and gave him my thoughts it worked.

What also worked was giving him things to read at his leisure.

Even though there wasn't always an immediate response and even though in beginning he was still in fog and self denial...he couldn't stop himself from thinking about what I said or what he read.

It took awhile but it all sunk in and helped him out of the fog.

Big key for me was to "educate" without appearing to be trying to "control" him.

My H was bugged at those "nuggets of wisdom" because they made him feel worse than he already did.

He was already well aware of all of the things I was trying to get across anyway. My thoughts and info were overwhelming him and made him feel like he couldn't get a break.

It depends on how often you do this and HOW you do it. Men do not want to be controlled.

Lostnhurt

You show H your changes by being CONSISTENT in your changes. We all backslide now and again but he's got to see the positive changes in you much more than he sees the old you. Practice makes perfect! You can't make him feel it,he has to see it for a long while first, then he'll be more inclined to believe it.

Don't know your story though.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />One thing. Please stop trying to educate him. I guarantee you that every time you think you are giving him a nugget to ponder, it's a love bust.
<hr /></blockquote>He has been instigating the talks. he wants to know my thoughts and feelings. These are things he's craved for for so long. And I am not doing it in a LB way at all.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Stop having relationship talks unless he brings something up <hr /></blockquote>He is the one asking me the questions.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> He told me that he was afraid that things will go back to before. The nice me will go back to the old one.<hr /></blockquote>My H fears this too, LNH. I just keep telling him I have learned so much now, and I'm seeing things in such a different way than ever before.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> If I preached to my H it failed...if I talked to him as a friend and gave him my thoughts it worked.
<hr /></blockquote>I agree forever. My H really enjoys talks like this where we truly express our feelings without any anger, preaching, etc. Just honesty and openness about the way we feel.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Practice makes perfect! You can't make him feel it,he has to see it for a long while first, then he'll be more inclined to believe it.
<hr /></blockquote>This is what my H says. He says he's seen my changes and he likes them, its just he says HE can't just change over night. I tell him I know and understand this and definitely do not expect it. I am patient and will continue to try to show him.

You're doing good nid, keep it up. As long as he's the one initiating talks do whatever you can to keep the communication open.

This is kind of the "honeymoon" feeling that couples get as they start to work things out. Enjoy it for what it's worth. It helps to keep the mood hopeful instead of so morose.

Well, only one more day to go til the end of the month. I don't see any bags being packed, but I am so anxious that the bomb is going to drop any day. I am avoiding any R talk at all costs and have been biting my tongue when questions pop into my head. We've had a great past few days. Last night I was going running and my H said he would come along and rollerblade (he can't run right now). Usually when we run together he puts on his headphones and we go at different paces. But last night, no headphones and he bladed right along side of me. We talked as we went. It was so nice. He had wanted to go work out, but he said he wasn't going to because it would make me feel anxious. I said he could go, but he didn't. Instead he worked out in the garage. How am I doing? If he doesn't move out, should I bring it up?

Funny thing last night, my H made a comment that he couldn't keep his eyes off of me because I look so good. My S overheard this, looked at me, smiled really big, and lifted his eyebrows up and down. I think he was so happy to hear his dad make a comment like that about me. My H was aware of his happy response too.

I don't want to assume too much, but things are looking up a little I think.

I've been planning to wait until April 1 to say, "I told you so."

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by wontgiveupyet:
 Well, only one more day to go til the end of the month.

How am I doing? If he doesn't move out, should I bring it up?<hr /></blockquote>Nope. Let that dog snooze.

WAT

You know, WAT, Melody thinks I have done Plan A long enough and should go to Plan B which would mean asking him to leave. I think that while I have been in Plan A a long time, its taken me a while to quit LB'ing and perhaps now Plan A is finally starting to sink in. What do you think?

I believe your Plan A is being effective, but I also believe you can't keep this up for long.

I believe a near term decision to go to Plan B is contingent on determining whether the OW is still in the picture. If she is, it's a no brainer to go to Plan B - when you meet the conditions for Plan B, namely, that you're separated and you need to protect yourself from further love bank withdrawals. If you feel you're about drained, and he hasn't left, you should ask him to leave.

(This doesn't mean he will and I'd like to watch when you ask him. I bet he'd be scared as hell and may eat out of your hand.)

But, you haven't met either condition yet. IF he moves out and IF he will not establish no contact, I agree you should go to Plan B, asssuming your tank is near E.

If the affair has already ended, I think your H is a selfish a$$ because he's putting HIS participation in the LL board - with OW's involvement - as a higher priority than your family.

I don't know if application of MB principles can fix this, but you should ask him to leave anyway.

He's read here, he's read part of some of the books, he's read my post to him, yet he will not sacrifice his participation on the LL board which would permit the establishment of NC with OW. Thus, the LL board is more important than his family. How sad. What a selfish a$$. What a poor excuse for a man. Whatever jollies he gets from the board are better than the jollies he gets from your family. Selfishness, ego, whatever. In the least, an ignorantly shortsighted man.

If the affair is NOT over - or he refuses to tell OW it's over, over, OVER!!! - MB principles can work and Plan B, when the conditions are met, is necessary.

One thing is clear - you cannot achieve a recovery if any contact with OW takes place. ANY!!! There must be zip, zilch, zero, nada, none. Even if some LL board contact could be "safe" for potentially re-kindling the affair - YOU would never fully recover because you'd always have doubt in your trust. You would never have an "end" and you'd LB him away.

I don't know the answer for you.

He says it's over, he somewhat acts like it's over, yet he won't DEMONSTRATE it's over by establishing NC.

I think Mel, mthrrhbrd, and others equate this, for all practical purposes, to a continuation of the affair. That's the safest bet. He may not be having routine contact, but the opportunity for contact remains and he may be as emotionally involved as ever.

I recommend that if he moves out and he won't agree to a NC letter - including either she or he leaves the board, Plan B is necessary. If he doesn't move out and you get to near the end of your rope - ask him to leave. But I recommend MORE that you get a session with SH to get his view.

WAT

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I believe your Plan A is being effective, but I also believe you can't keep this up for long.
<hr /></blockquote>I think so too, WAT. He has actually started admitting and accepting responsibility for the state of our M. He also wants to get into counseling. I am being careful not to push him in any way because I want him to see that our M can work, it can be great.

The one thing I'm having a problem with is letting him out of my sight. How do I handle this? One part of it is that I am desperately wanting to spend time with him. The other part is that I have very little trust. He has been very concientious when he goes on an errand and reassures me by calling and checking in. I don't want to smother him. I guess this is why I need the PI, so that I can determine whether or not I can trust him not to be in contact with her.

Right now I am avoiding even asking him if he has contacted her because I don't want to bring her up. I have checked on him myself several times when he could have had an opportunity to call or see her and I have found nothing. I don't want to be naive, but I'm just not seeing any signs. So far, my gut has always been right. I actually am falling asleep easily the past few days.

Well, last night I tried to initiate sex with my H and for maybe the 2nd time in our whole 13 years together he declined saying he needed to finish planning his day for tomorrow. He said he needed to finish first. I went to bed and read and fell asleep. He found me sleeping and said he would just snuggle with me when he came to bed. He came to bed very late and he did not snuggle with me at all. He slept all the way on his side of our king size bed with his back to me. This is the way he has been sleeping for the past week or so. He doesn't want to be intimate anymore. What is going on?

I feel like there is a time bomb ticking in my house and its getting ready to go off.

Yesterday he said, "What if we can't recover?" I said, "I don't really believe in 'can't', but rather 'won't'." I said, "You only can't if you don't try." He said he just doesn't know if he can "emotionally" recover. I can't make him see that he can. It is so frustrating.

A part of me wants to just make him an appointment with SH and make him do it, but that would be wrong wouldn't it?

Yes, try to make him talk to SH.

Nid...when my H and OW broke NC shortly after dday...I too didn't think they had an opportunity but they made one. Remember my H is a stay at home dad and I work in a home office..OW was next door neighbor...don't you think I watched them like a hawk? They were still able to sneak by me and make contact..3 times in person (he was driving to workout adn she met him on rollerblades and got in car and they drove out of sight down street and talked) and about 5-6 times over the phone...all in a 3 day period of time.

Then...I finally caught them...but not by seeing them but by opening a credit card bill and seeing that he had charged minutes for ONSTAR..he was using ONSTAR in is vehicle to call her! Now is that sneaky or what?!

None of what he is doing doesn't make sense unless he's still seeing her or planning to see her.

As for making an appt with SH and forcing your H to attend...hmm..tought one...I had to drag my H to things in the early days of recovery but in a short period of time, he was hooked and did things on his own.

Remember my H's post to you about WS's needing a strong BS during those early fogbound days???

Do you remember 2ofakind and other WS's similar postings?

I wouldn't keep avoiding all talks of his moving out or his vacillating...burying your head in the sand never really solves anything.

That doesn't mean you have to LB..just that you need to tell him clearly what you are feeling...Plan A isn't about hiding your thoughts and feelings from the WS..you need to share them in but in a non LB way.

I would simply telling him that hanging around in Limbo land is slowly killing you and you need his help....see where that leads the conversation.

I hope you hear from others who have experienced or witnessed withdrawal (I haven't), but this may be what he's going through - assuming he's really ended it with OW. Otherwise, it's the same 'ole fence sitting. Don't try to react to every current in the river, or make stock picks on a single day's performance. Patience, patience, patience.

Do not "make" him do anything - including talking to SH. Don't even try. Very controlling.

If he comes across as being comfortable with, or is considering counseling, you can suggest SH as a highly recommended and experienced choice. But any port in a storm here. Steve is preferred, but settle for a local if that's all he'll consider.

Oh, by the way, what's today's date, hmmmmm??? And I'm NOT referring to the fact that it's April Fools Day.

OK, you can tell me I was right. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

WAT

This is an email my friend sent me today. She always has a way of reminding me of my goal. It is very long, but it makes a lot of sense to me. What do any of you guys think?:

Well, it is a roller coaster. You guys have continuously gone back and forth with your feelings and decisions. Look back and remember..... when you found out all this was going on you asked him to stop and to be honest.
He couldn't/wouldn't--for many reasons. Then you asked him directly for a commitment and if he couldn't give it you asked him to leave.

From that point you have learned a lot and grown a lot and most importantly, gained a ton of understanding about yourself, the past, your relationship, etc.

However, during this time BOTH of you have been GIVING CONSTANT MIXED SIGNALS: You have had lots of talks and lots of tender moments. Things
have gotten a lot better in many ways and there have been some rough spots too. During this time you have acknowledged that he is obviously very
confused and unable to commit. There have been days where you've been strong and said that you understand and will give him this time and space.
Then there are other days where the wheels fall off and you snap. Because of his moments of dishonesty and because of his inability to commit to you, you have asked him several times to leave---and that prompted him to move closer to doing it. However, after that you guys had several talks and lots of good moments and even though you told him to leave (and even leave early)---you really didn't/don't want him to leave. You also have said that you want him to stay (with conditions---comittments, etc.) and at other
times you try to just roll with it and keep things up-beat and give him signs that he can stay without committing right away. He's getting and giving mixed signals too--because he says he's going to move out but doesn't. He looks for a place thinking that's what you want and you get
upset.

His confusion is concerning, confusing in and of itself, and difficult to swallow I know. "Where he is" could be because of an affair he's having...or it could be from being at rock bottom and totally at the point of giving up and then finding it difficult to actually do it....especially when he started to get what he needed from you and is not sure what to do
now--and not sure if you are 'for real'. The cause of the confusion and numbness we cannot know 100% and we may never really know for sure--but a huge percentage of it we can identify the source. How can we know this.....because he told us very clearly!

This is where I said that you've got to do some serious soul searching and DECIDE what it is that YOU REALLY WANT. Once you do that---if it's H and your marriage, then you need to decide what this means, what it's going to take and make your decision and stick to it come hell or high water. You need to come to grips with your role in this...what your values are, what's most important---CENTER AND GROUND YOURSELF and act with purpose in every situation. When you do this---you will always feel at peace deep down--you will feel confident that you are a person who acts with integrity and is living conisistently with your values. And, even when other people let you down, and the winds of life blow really hard----you will still be standing---WITH your self-respect, with your dignity and with confidence--NO REGRETS. This is true in this situation and in EVERY SITUATION.

YOU CANNOT continue to react and vascilate. You cannot snap when you are not getting what you want from him and get hot and cold in the blink of an eye. Remember, that's what's been happening all along in your marriage(from his point of view). That's what he expects from you. I think if you really love him and you want to show him how much you do--then you've got to
show it consistently over time. You can't just start out on a good, loving note and then when he doesnt reciprocate or do what you want him to do---do a 180 and go the other way. You can't despearately want him one minute and then go to 0 degrees and say you'll be fine just go the next........that's conditional love--not real love. It's that hot/cold; on/off; I want you /I
don't that he has issues with way down deep inside.

REMEMBER.......you do not know and may never know what is or isn't happening. You can't control his heart or his mind or dig down deep enough
to know 100% of what he's feeling and what his intentions are------ESPECIALLY if he's not sure himself!!!! To focus on this and to try to pin him down probably won't work. If you back him into a corner, he's going to squirm, get uncomfortable and fly. Remember, there were times
in your life where he couldn't reach you. You were numb to him and nothing he did made any difference. However, you didn't stay there forever. He probably won't either. But it did take a while.....a LONG while.

The only thing you can control is you and the way you handle and contribute to the situation. We all agree that H anxiety and his numbness goes
a long way back and was a path with many distinct milestones----it's not about her---she's just a distraction. His decision to leave and his
realization that the relationship would not work goes way back---he reached that place only after a long and difficult journey. It's going to take some time for him to snap out of it, and there is a slight chance that he may not--but the odds are in your favor.

I know it seems like it's been FOREVER and that it's taking too long----but remember---it wasn't until he was in Dallas a little over a month ago that you started to really change in a way that got his attention---you started to tell him things he'd never heard you say--the things he needed to hear and get from you, etc. You guys have reached a level of understanding and
communication that you have never had (or have not had in a long time)----but it has not been that long really---just about 2 months, right?

Take her compeletly out of it for a moment-----he hit rock bottom and was convinced that you could not and did not love him and would be better off
with someone else. Because of what's happened over the years--he honestly believes this. He's getting different signals from you now and he's not sure what that means or how he feels.

Sometimes you stuggle and are distant when he wants to be close. Sometimes he's that way. You are both still on a rough road and are not always in the 'same place' mentally and physically at the same time. That's ok.

Again--you have got to really decide what you want, what that's going to take, make your decision, put on your armour and do it.

You are in an extremely vulneralbe position right now I know. It's awkward and unconfortable. But if you really want him it's going to take extreme
self-sacrifice. You're going to have to put him first and not give in to your needs and wants. That's what love is.

If you cant do that, then there's your answer. And, that's ok too. If you snap and give up because you can't take the uncertainty of what's happening or where his heart is---then that's understandable and you have that right. It's YOUR choice. But don't expect him to come back again. If you make this choice..then you've got to stick to it just the same. You can't PUSH/PULL and expect to get what you want. It doesn't work that way.

I think about the difficulties that people go through in marriages where one spouse is in a "bad place" and the other has to endure even though they are not getting what they want or need----like when someone is seriously or
terminally ill, or when someone is mentally ill and depressed for a long period of time, or when one is serving in the miliary and they don't see
each other for years. The spouse who's on the 'GIVING' end may be about to unravel themselves. They may feel fear and extreme uncertaintly. They may get mad and be tempted to give up. They think about the 'WHAT IF'S, but do
they give up? The reality is, they could give their heart and soul and everything they have and their husband/wife could still die of cancer and
they are left exhausted, disallusioned, heart-broken and with nothing. They could sacrifice everything and their soldier husband could die or meet someone else while overseas. The fact is...you could have to stand by your husband through years of dispair for many reasons. Would you give up in these situations when it got tough--even if you knew there was a chance you could lose the race? If the answer is no, then why is this situation any different?

You know what the folks on the website say and you know what happens when an affair is going on--this situation could be as they say it is. However, you also know the history, how much he endured for you and why (to a large degree) he hit rock bottom and is numb and confused. Those are the 'knowns' in this situation, but having this history and these facts doesn't make them
easy to forget or overcome---especially to a sensitive, emotional, 'feeling'type person. And, for H, dealing with the past is not so much the
issue and him wondering if the future is really going to be any different---again, I don't think he really knows if you really love him, if he can make you happy and if he's want you want or need. Not to mention his own confusion about his own feelings!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The point is...what have you really got to lose? Your marriage? If you push and he moves out will you have any more answers? Any more control? Any
more resolution?

He can't take your dignity. He can't take your faith. He can't take your self-respect.

I say hang in there. Don't snap. Don't give up. I think you're right. He's testing you. He's watching you----but it may not be for the reasons
that you think.

IF, worst case....I'm wrong about this and he totally screws you.......then you can walk away knowing you gave it your very best. With your
self-respect, with your dignity and your confidence---NO REGRETS. If he is a dishonest, cheating, selfish person-----judgement day will come. At LL and, more importantly with the man upstairs.

If you can't take it anymore then make that decision and move on. I support you. Just know, either way, regardless--...you can't go back in forth with your feelings and emotions and expect to get anything different in terms of a response from him. It doesnt work that way.

I say just pray. Don't try to take matters in your own hands and force a conclusion. God has a plan. We just don't know what it is or understand it yet!

YOU WERE RIGHT WAT!!!!

If you finish reading my last post by sundown, let me know what you think of my friend's ideas.
She's the one who spent over 3 1/2 hours on the phone with him the other day so she knows his side of everything.

I won't push the counseling issue.

I agree with about 90% of what your friend is saying because, in essence, most of what she's saying is, "Plan A and stop love busting."

I perceive she doesn't understand what Plan B is - hence her accusations to you for sending mixed signals when you ask him to leave. If you've asked him the wrong way - with angry outbursts and/or disrespectful judgements - then he IS getting mixed messages. But if you calmly asked him to leave, giving the real Plan B rationale, this shouldn't be a mixed message at all. Of course, who knows how he described this to your friend.

He IS confused - we've known that all along. But his pointing the finger at you as a source of confusion is right from the WS script.

I also disagree with this statement: "You can't desperately want him one minute and then go to 0 degrees and say you'll be fine just go the next........that's conditional love--not real love."

That's maybe sending mixed messages - if you're not in control of your emotions. But that's got nothing to do with "real love" vs "conditional love." Marital love IS conditional love. Period. If anyone disagrees with this, you also have to disagree with the core MB principle of fulfilling emotional needs as necessary to "fall in love, stay in love."

But what she maybe REALLY means here - and I do agree 100% - is that you have to do a consistent Plan A, not waver, and not love bust. Patience, time, consistency. - and NOT be in a hurry.

Bottom line - your Plan A is working. But every LB and every angry outburst sets you back a step.

WAT

Thanks for taking the time to read that and respond WAT.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I perceive she doesn't understand what Plan B is - hence her accusations to you for sending mixed signals when you ask him to leave. <hr /></blockquote>I have explained it to her and before she spoke to my H, she agreed that I should go to Plan B. But once she heard his side, even though the story was pretty much the same, hearing how deep his feelings were about our M, she saw things in a different light. She had lost total respect for him prior to hearing his side. Now, while she thinks he is making a mistake by giving up, she understands where he is at.

No consequences = no motivation to change anything

He will keep the status quo as long as you'll let him. I don't think you'll even come close to losing him because you ask him to leave while he figures himself out. He may be upset about it initially, but in the long run, he will respect your strength and refusal to let him continually reek havoc on your emotions.

The more the MBers principles of attaining recovery are altered, the more you lessen your chances of an honest to goodness recovery. I think at this point he knows you are commited, has seen you can change but still wants to remain comfortable and in control. If he were serious about figuring himself out, and was really in such turmoil over your past A, he'd already have himself in counseling. He doesn't want to go because he knows the counselor will tell him he has to end it with OW in order to know whether he wants to stay married or not. The distance is nothing but classic evidence of contact, just like it has been every other time in the past. I don't understand why you keep asking <blockquote>quote:<hr /> What is going on? <hr /></blockquote>Nid,you know exactly what's going on. It's just really painful to acknowledge it and deal with it.

As always, JMHO! and all the best to you!

Thanks Mthrrhbard. I don't think he is still seeing her. WAT says maybe it is withdrawal. What do you think?

I don't think so.

I think it's the conflicted feelings WS get each time there is contact that cause them to pull away in those isolating behaviors( sleeping way to one side of the bed, back to spouse in bed, refusing intimacy).

Withdrawl is more pervasive...irritable, depressed and forlorn.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by wontgiveupyet:
WAT says maybe it is withdrawal.<hr /></blockquote>That was assuming he's ended the affair. I also said I've never seen affair withdrawal, so I'm no expert. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

OK, nid, I'm going fishing in Fla. with my son next week. Won't check up on you until after the 12th. I challenge you to focus on yourself and YOUR son. Make yourself more desirable by feeling better about yourself. and, NO LBs!

WAT

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Withdrawl is more pervasive...irritable, depressed and forlorn.
<hr /></blockquote>He is these things Mthrrhbard. Just last night he was extremely irritable. I thought he was purposefully trying to make me mad. And depressed, yes he is that too. Then when he acts rudely to me, later he feels bad. Almost like he realizes he is pushing me away, although I try my best not to be emotional anymore. He was really mean to me last night and blamed it on being really tired, which he was.

WAT, I am definitely taking care of me and my son. I'm exercising a lot and looking really good! I feel better too, knowing I am doing my best and trying my hardest to save my M. If I can't, at least I will know that I did all I could do. And I know I will be okay, no matter what happens.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> He was really mean to me last night and blamed it on being really tired, which he was.
<hr /></blockquote>Most WS are depressed so they are forlorn and irritable for the most part. But I have found that when there are "bursts" of irritability, meanness, and distance it is usually an indication that WS has had contact and feels guilty. To combat their guilt they have to be mean and nasty, trying to get a negative reaction out of you, so they can justify in their minds that the contact they had was justifiable and you really are an old shrew. Of course they'll use any excuse for their meaness besides the real one, which is usually continued contact. Does he have access to a phone or computer at work?

I'm not trying to burst your bubble. I do think you are seeing things through rose colored glasses due to the fact that your H has not made a single move towards recovery. He simply sits and stalls. I don't think he's going to change anything without some sort of catalyst.

He works from home and in his car only (pharmaceutical sales). So he uses home phone, cell phone, and PC at home.

I came home today and found *67 plus her phone # on his redial. *67 would block his information on her phone. My friend thinks he called her then hung up, and he's baiting me to see if I'm still checking up on him. Otherwise, he would have covered his tracks like he used to. She thinks he wants to see how I react or if I react.

I think it could also be that he wants her to pick up the phone and maybe she's ended it with him and he knows she won't pick up if he sees his number.

Who knows? I'm not going to ask or react.

[ April 02, 2004, 04:26 PM: Message edited by: wontgiveupyet ]

*67 is also the "beam me up" signal to the Mothership.

Maybe time to stir the brains some more. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Explain in English please, WAT. I don't have much sense these days <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Sorry. I was just employing an absurd explanation for an absurd behavior and trying to lead you off the analysis road.

OK, I'll try another.

Time to once again dust off WAT's Word Origins.

wayward

way - the route or path to someplace

ward - loonie bin

Thanks for the laugh WAT. Mission accomplished.

No more analyzing his crazy behavior. But I'm still going to go to Radio Shack!

I'm with mthrrhbard on this one. Well, WAT too.

I think you are deluding yourself in wanting to believe the best. This doesn't sound like withdrawal to me.

His acting like that in bed and his angry attitudes all sound like guilt to me too.
I also think it means he's had contact.

This has been my experience.

Yes, you guys may have a different history than we did and that history may be have something to do with his possibly testing whether or not you can truly change for the best. I am sure OW doesn't think you can. Maybe he's pissed because
a he'd doesn't want to believe you can change and he was convincing himself the he wanted to be gone. You have been confusing him, but not consistently enough.

You really should get to Radio Shack.

You know Momof3boys's H's OW told him he wouldn't be happy if he went back to his wife. I'd bet your H's OW says the same type of stuff. She wants him to join her and head for DV la la land. I wonder how her DV is progressing?

Doesn't hurt to still do as your friend suggested until you go to plan B; if and when you ever get proof of contact.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> My friend thinks he called her then hung up, and he's baiting me to see if I'm still checking up on him. <hr /></blockquote>Yes, that or he doesn't want someone else in her household to know he's calling. Remember, she is going through divorce proceedings and his # and/or name on her phone, even if seen by her kids( who then tell their dad),could cause problems for her.

Botton line Nid, if you H is going to be testing you when he's the one who's been messing around, you are far from coming to a place of mutual recovery. Does he actually think that after what he's pulled you aren't entitled to check up on him? Most certainly you are. Does he honestly have the notion that he's entitled to some kind of personal privacy in a marriage after he's betrayed your trust? Being fully open and having no problem being scrutinized by the BS is one of the first steps to recovery and is an indicator that WS is honestly interested in repairing the emotional damage they've caused. His job in recovery is to do everything possible to make you feel secure, even if that means coming up against an occasional false accusation and some paranoia on your part.If he's really interested in a healthy recovery he'd have no problem with you checking up on him and asking questions. That's to be expected.

Honestly, I know this is hard to hear, but the chances are very high that if he's questioning whether or not he still wants to be married or not, he's assured he could have her back in his life in a New York minute, if he gave the word.

My H was fooling himself by trying to convince himself that it was more a question of "did he want to stay married" vs. "did he want to take his affair to the next level". I think he had to fool himself to some degree because he didn't have another coping mechanism strong enough to justify the wrongness of his A. In his mind, he had to make it about something else, besides OW. Mine used the "not compatible" excuse, the "not ever really in love with you" excuse, and the "can't communicate" excuse. To him it was about me and not the feelings he was having for her. He thought this way until he went to IC, stopped acting destructively and made numerous efforts to construct a new marriage.

In the time I have been on this board, in cases where a marriage has been scarred by an affair on the parts of both partners, I have seen a miniscule amount recover without the benefit of long term marital counseling.

For me, I had to refuse to let,my (and my kids) life be effected daily, by my H's destructiveness. Affair or no affair, it was not healthy to allow the destructiveness of his indecision to continue. I figured the longer I allowed him to negatively affect the marriage, the more damage it could do and the harder it would be to fix it. He had to go. I had to know, that he knew what it felt like, to be without me. I thought that if he experienced what it was like to live without me, at least he'd never have to wonder about that again.

This is just to give an illustration of one marriage's formula for getting to the first steps of a successful recovery. There are many others found here on MBers. I post with the hope that someone out there finds something helpful in my experience.

Praying for the best for you nid.

Hey everyone. I just wanted to say thank you for all your support. I'm going to take a break from posting here for a while because I feel like it is consuming my life and I just want to stop focusing my entire life around my misery. I don't know if that makes sense or not, but I'm going to just focus on myself and my son first, then my work. I feel like I'm totally neglecting my responsibilities as a teacher. I haven't been doing lesson plans, grading papers, and giving the time I should to my students.

Anyway, I will give you all an update when something in my life changes.

Thank you again for all your support and prayers.

Nid

Nid, I hope it all works for you. We will still be here for you if you need help. Take care. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Good luck nid!
May God's blessings be with you and son and H.

Good Luck Nid! We wish you all the very best. We'll be here if you need us. I take it from your note that he didn't move out this weekend! That's good.