Hi all,

Well, my H knows I love him and he know I want to save my M. But he doesn't know what he wants. Half the time he wants to divorce, the other half of the time he doesn't want to leave. He says he loves me, but doesn't know if we can work this out.

I decided today to help him to find a place to stay. Instead of trying to convince him of all the reasons to stay, I'm going to just let him go without any more fight. I looked in the paper and on the net for him this morning. I found a few places. He is going to check them out. I've got to stop trying to control the situation. I'm just going to continue to let him know I love him and to show him I am changing as a person.

I just wish that someone could convince him that our M could be better than ever. I guess he will have to discover that on his own. I'm pretting convinced this isn't about OW. Confiding in her was wrong, but he was in such pain from all the repeated times I turned my back on him. Once when he asked me if I was "in love" with him I told him I did love him, but no I didn't have that in love feeling anymore. That statement coupled with all my turning away from him, no matter what my reasons were, has made him numb.

Anyway, I guess I need to just let him find himself and show him that I love him, can be here for him, and that I have changed.

<small>[ March 28, 2004, 12:00 AM: Message edited by: wontgiveupyet ]</small>

Wow! Do you really have yourself together that well?

It's not your fault he had an A(I think you know this). But you have admitted you were wrong for some of the things you did. Now, he needs to get his head out of his @$$ and pay attention. How long has it been since Dday?

I don't know if you should be looking for him a place. He needs to do his own work if that's what he wants. It's also possible ammo down the road for him to fire back at you. "Well, you didn't want me here. You even looked for me a place to go." I'm not trying to be harsh, but us men/ws/whatever say and do a lot of stupid when are head are up our.... well, I think you get the point.

But it sounds like YOU might be getting to a good spot in working out everything in your head. Just don't go to extremes with it. It's easy for some people(Looking in mirror) to push blame from one extreme to another.

Wow, I'm really impressed with the way you've explained you feelings. I'm thinking we have a lot in common in this. Well, maybe not me and you. But the situation.... I'm sorry it sucks <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Wow! Do you really have yourself together that well?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks BAM, no I really don't. I go up and down, sometimes several times a day. Just this morning I was pleading with him to stay. It just became so obvious that he doesn't want to. I think I'm pushing him farther away the more I try to convince him. He keeps saying that I'm not regarding his feelings and I'm making it all about how I feel, so maybe just offering him support will show him I care about his happiness, which I do, no matter how much it is killing me inside.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How long has it been since Dday?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My first d-day was July 03, but he explained it all away and he and the OW promised they would no longer let their R be of a personal nature. For months I had the suspicion it was continuing and me and my H would get into fights, further justifying his EA and our inability to communicate. In Jan. 04, I found cell phone bills that proved the extent of their EA.

In case your not familiar with my story, I had an A 5 1/2 years ago. Obviously we never truly recovered from that, hence all our problems today. He's admitted though his faults and has begun to accept some responsibility for the state of our M. The thing is he truly believes I would be happier with someone else and believes that he can never meet my needs. I know this is not true, but he has to be willing to do it.

Wow...what a position to be in.

I hope you stay as strong as you sound now...cause you sound very strong.

Anyway..have you thought about the possibilty of this being a test from him to you?

Maybe not even a concious one.

Let me explain...I remember at one point my H (while deep in fogland and land of temporarily insane) actually got angry at me in teh middle of his A because I couldn't tell what was going on. He was actually mad at me that he was pulling this over on me. He said it was like a cry for help and I didn't hear him (even though he acknowledges he was one sneaky, manipulative guy during that time).

Is it possible that somewhere inside of your H his inner child is desparately calling to you for help...which is exhibited in his wishwashy manner???

Anyone else out there think this is a possibility?

If I were you I would try to get an appt with a therapist who specializes in inner child issues and run your story adn your H behaviour by them and get some advice.

I'm positive that this isn't "just" about the OW..I've mentioned before that it certainly sounds like he has other issues going on...he sounds so much like a lost little boy.

However, lost little boys usually turn to someone to help or meet their needs...I would still follow through on that PI to make sure it's not OW he turns to.

Maybe deep down he really wants you to make a stand for him.

Have you ever had a really bad day...feel really out of sorts, grouchy...don't even know what's wrong....know your acting irrationally but can't stop?? I have I've gotten upset with my H on so many occasions and when I do...I sometimes push him away hard...he tries to hold me..I say don't touch me...he says let me help...I say leave me alone....ALL ALONG WHAT I REALLY WANT IS FOR HIM NOT TO LISTEN TO MY PUSHING HIM AWAY...WANT HIM TO GRAB ME AND HOLD ON TIGHT NO MATTER WHAT I SAY OR DO. MY ADULT IS OUT OF CONTROL AND MY INNER CHILD IS IN CONTROL.

Could this be your H now???

If so do some research on inner child...in recovery Kat used to post alot about this.

During IC our therapist worked really hard with my H and myself to help us understand that everyone is made up of differnt parts...logical/compassionate adult, critical doubter and inner child. Understanding this and how to recognize who's in control of us at any given time is key to getting control back.

Just something else to think about....

I think you are missing the point. I think he's trying to tell you that he wants to do this on his own. Don't "help" him find a place to live, let him do it. He needs to think of what he's doing as he's "looking", for a new place to live.
You are rescuing this man from all of the consequences of his A.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've got to stop trying to control the situation. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">By looking to find a place for him, this is exactly what you are doing.

Let him go, help him move, say goodbye and let him see you go on with your life. If you never give this man something to think about, he's going to keep thinking the same garbage he's been stuck thinking for the last 8 months.

ditto mrrrrrthrrddd

Allow him to do this, don't hinder and don't help. In fact, make sure you are looking out for YOUR interests. Be reasonable but firm with any money decisions.

WAT

I agree with both forevertogether and mthrrhbard...although they are saying somewhat different things! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

inner child...also called vulnerability...took me a long time to recognize that that was what I did too...accept the vulnerability, face it and hey presto...you don't do that crap any more...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It just became so obvious that he doesn't want to. I think I'm pushing him farther away the more I try to convince him. He keeps saying that I'm not regarding his feelings and I'm making it all about how I feel, </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">woof...almost word for word from my H...I wasn't pleading but...hmmm...explaining?

let him do what he wants but be loving...don't plead, don't cry, just reiterate that you love him and want to be M...SHOW him your changes, don't discuss them...he's waffling because he's not sure, not sure if he trusts, not sure what he wants...whatever...

be strong...I told my H that I was strong enough to let him go...that pretty much ended the convos about him leaving...do you know what I mean? I wasn't supporting him leaving but I made it clear that I would neither prevent him from going, nor would I collapse if he left...it nicely put the ball squarely in his court, which is where your ball needs to go...I mean in your H's court not mine! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The thing is he truly believes I would be happier with someone else and believes that he can never meet my needs. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">a strong, happy, confident you is the best thing he can see right now...be upbeat...you can do it! awed

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is it possible that somewhere inside of your H his inner child is desparately calling to you for help...which is exhibited in his wishwashy manner???
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not sure about this forever. But it could be because I know he never grew up feeling much love from his parents. I know this just from the things he has told me. Also, his parents don't really have a good marriage. They fought all the time and he says he used to wish they would have divorced. He is not close with his parents even today.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ALL ALONG WHAT I REALLY WANT IS FOR HIM NOT TO LISTEN TO MY PUSHING HIM AWAY...WANT HIM TO GRAB ME AND HOLD ON TIGHT NO MATTER WHAT I SAY OR DO. MY ADULT IS OUT OF CONTROL AND MY INNER CHILD IS IN CONTROL.

Could this be your H now???
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think so. I think he truly wants me to let go. He thinks I am holding on just because another woman came into the picture. That opened my eyes to the state of our M, but I honestly do not feel threatened by her. I know my H loves me. I just think he doesn't want to be hurt again and he thinks I will do that.

As for me, I feel just as you described sometimes. When I stormed away from him in the past, what I really wanted and needed was for him to come running after me and hold me tight. Now, when I am in the throes of an emotional breakdown, I just want him to hold me and comfort me even if I know it isn't going to change his mind. I just need the comfort.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> By looking to find a place for him, this is exactly what you are doing. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know, when I re-read my post, I thought how stupid that sounded because it did seem like I was trying to control that. In actuality though, he wanted me to quit battling him about it and try to support him. I was only trying to help because he had so many things to do and I wanted him to see that I'm not going to fight him on this. He knows where I stand and what I want, but this is about him.

I was also thinking that maybe he wants to leave to see how he'll feel not having me. Maybe he wants to see if he'll miss me. Since he's feeling so numb to my expressions of love and my attempts to fulfill his needs, maybe he wants to see if he'll miss those things. Does that make sense to anyone?

He filled out the EN questionnaire and we started to go over them. Funny thing is the only need of mine he has been fulfilling is SF. He doesn't have any interest in fulfilling my needs. He thinks I am fulfilling his only because I am trying to hang on. That may be in a small part true, but also because I want to show him that I CAN and I want him to realize that I do love him. My efforts are genuine, but he doesn't see that. Maybe that's another reason why he wants to move out, to see if I am still going to try or for how long. Maybe its a test to see if I really do love him. I just don't know.

Good move. Wish him well and help him pack. I suspect it is the first step in the recovery of your marriage. Just lingering on in limboland forever is doing but destroying yourself. This is a positive step in the right direction and I think it will wake him up.

Melody, what I'm not sure of is how to act while we are separated. I know I should show that I am confident and doing well, but how much affection should I show him? Should I continue to try to fill his needs?

I am pretty confident about OW being out of the picture, there has been no indication that he has been in contact. OW's H is actually coaching their s's LL team, so they are in a lot of contact. He told my friend that OW is actually the last thing on his mind right now. He is just so emotionally torn about himself and our M.

Back to what I was talking about in the 1st paragraph, should I be somewhat distant or unavailable? Or will this have a negative effect on our trying to rebuild? Should I let him be the one to make the first moves, or will he see this as me not really caring? Its just all so confusing.

Should I just quit stressing about it and take it day by day, with no set plan? Any advice?

Why wouldn't you just go into Plan B? If Plan A doesn't work after a period of time, it actually becomes destructive. I think you are far past that point. Am I missing something here?

But he wants to build a foundation, a friendship, sort of start over and see where it goes from there. If I go to plan B, how can I do that?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by wontgiveupyet:
<strong> But he wants to build a foundation, a friendship, sort of start over and see where it goes from there. If I go to plan B, how can I do that? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How can he build a "friendship," much less his marriage, if he is not there? That does nothing to build a close marriage. How can he build a "friendship" if he is still in contact with the OW? You are not his "friend," but his wife.

Nid, it is unrealistic to believe that you can "start over." That is fog talk. If he really wants to work on the marriage, he should stay home and go into counseling with you. But I don't see him willing to do that. Once again, his words just don't match his actions.

He has had plenty of time to work on this "friendship", but I don't see him doing that. Instead I see him trying to move out.

Nid, please go by his actions and not his words.

<small>[ March 27, 2004, 08:53 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

He says he doesn't want to stay because we always fight, that we can't communicate without me being hurt by his honest feelings.

He also says he needs space, some peace from all the stress of our M.

How will moving out change any of that?

I would point out that your fights are about his relationship with the OW and his dishonesty, which he refuses to end. How will moving out solve that?

Unless he stops doing the thing that is causing the fights, moving out will help nothing. If he stopped doing the things that caused the fights, wouldn't that give him some peace?

Has he sent a no contact letter to the OW?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I would point out that your fights are about his relationship with the OW and his dishonesty, which he refuses to end. How will moving out solve that?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have done this. He doesn't really agree. He says he needs a break.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Unless he stops doing the thing that is causing the fights, moving out will help nothing. If he stopped doing the things that caused the fights, wouldn't that give him some peace?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He says he doesn't want to offer me any false hope that we will work things out. He feels that by staying he is doing that whenever he is nice to me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Has he sent a no contact letter to the OW? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No. He will not do this. He says he still needs to be able to communicate with her about LL.

Melody, I know none of this makes sense to anyone, not even me. But it makes sense to him. I don't know if anyone can get through to him to see it another way. Nothing will make him see that we have the potential of having a great marriage. It makes me think he is just trying to let me down easy, to smooth things out, and then ask for a divorce when I am less emotional. Maybe he just really doesn't want to be with me.

Nid..I don't think any of us can give you clear advise until we know For Sure if the OW is still in the picture.

Everything he says now is so typical for a WS still in an A and fogland...scary part is that you are showing signs of being in the fog with him. You are letting him suck you into his temporary insanity...you are letting an insane person call all the shots.

No matter what else you do hire the PI to find out if OW still in picture or not!!

If she is...go Plan B.

If she's not...put all your efforts into getting him into see an IC. A good one.

If she's DEFINITELY not in picture...then you can rest a little easier if he goes forward with moving out and you can tell him that you want him here...you are his friend but as long as OW not in picture AND he agrees to see an IC...you'll do your best to support him. However, you should set clear boundaries of what this support means...you don't want him to gave the best of single and married life..else why would he want to come home???

As for EN's..meeting each others when you're in the middle of all this trauma is tough...however, if you go into it with the attitude that you are going to do this...it becomes fun..really fast. We made charts, graded each other had fun with it...like a mini competition..it gave us moments of humor and laughs during all the trauma.

And that is exactly why you need to go into Plan B. Plan A has not worked, Nid. You will never pull him off that fence if you just keep doing what you are doing. You are just giving him more time. You can see for yourself it is not working. And of course, he wants to keep you waiting in the wings, doesn't EVERY WS? But it is not until the BS takes matters into their hands that things start changing.

Doing Plan A this long is only destructive. And I don't care what he says, you can't go by what he says. He is a confused individual who doesn't know what he wants. Quit helping him sit on the fence, Nid. When he moves out, go into Plan B.

I would also point out that he has told you ALL ALONG that his "contact" with the OW is purely professional and it hasn't been. Any contact is continuation of the affair no matter what deceptive name he calls it.

So, I take it the board president isn't going to do anything about this?

I understand exactly where you and H are at. Your H is saying all the same things my H said. Men are simple, when he's telling you where his head is at, leave it at that, don't read anything else into it. It is what it is. He really needs to be on his own if your marriage is going to get to the point of recovery. Yes, he needs to see if he is going to miss you.

My H had the same problems with his parents and the lack of love he experienced growing up. IC helped him with this. It was a big factor affecting him internally and how he saw ME. I had a tendency to be my H's "mother". We married very young (24) and he acted like a kid and I fell into the "mother" thing. Feelings get displaced when there are deep issues from childhood that need resolved. Now I DO NOT mother.

Your H will not realize what he is giving up until he leaves. More than anything else you must do everything to rule out contact with OW. There can be NO contact. If he insists, then you MUST Plan B. He has to know how serious you are. You will not get a recovered marriage if there is contact. I have no idea how you or a PI is going to be able to rule out telephone contact since your H has discovered the secrecy a calling card provides.

I'd say for now, let him move out, give him a few good weeks without much contact with you to see what he does with his free time ( all the while having the PI on him)and to give him the OPPORTUNITY to miss you. If and when he gets into counseling himself and if and when the issue of contact with OW gets ruled out, then you can think about some kind of contact with him yourself. JMHO, as always.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your H will not realize what he is giving up until he leaves. More than anything else you must do everything to rule out contact with OW. There can be NO contact. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will definitely do this. He is really trying to show me that he isn't talking to her. Yesterday at the ball field he asked me if I could go pick up his suits before the store closed. I knew if I did, the game would finish before I returned and OW was on the next field. The thought of him being there and her so close by made the bile in my stomach rise. I told him I was really uncomfortable with it and told him why. He said, no problem, I understand. I can get them next weekend. Whew, I really wanted to do it for him but it left me with so much anxiety I knew I couldn't. I was glad he understood and took it so well.

We did a ton of talking yesterday about options of moving out: a friend, an apt. alone, his mom, or an extended stay hotel for a month. He is thinking about which will be best. He doesn't want to do the friend because he'll want to party. He doesn't want to do his mom because she'll drive him nuts. So it will probably be one of the other two options. We talked about a lot of feelings we were both having. It was a pleasant conversation. Some of his feelings were hard to swallow, but I did without breaking down.

We went to church yesterday. The gospel was so fitting. It was about the adulterous woman brought before Jesus and he said let he who has no sin cast the 1st stone. It was all about forgiveness and love. My H had his arm around me during part of the mass. We also noticed in the bulletin two counselors that the church has and my H said he would look into them. I think a Christian counselor would be best because they are going to emphasize reconciliation, don't you think.

I also finished reading SAA and the chapter about Recovery and resentment and restoring trust really hit home. This is where we went wrong so long ago. My H said he would read it.

My H also mentioned yesterday about a conversation we had long ago about an old boyfriend of mine. I had said that while I was with him I always wondered if there was someone else for me. My H says he thinks that I feel that way about him. I said that couldn't be farther from the truth. I told him that the old boyfriend and I were best friends, but I never had any passion for him and never was "in love" with him. Yes I loved and cared about him a lot, but I couldn't force the feeling of desire. I told him I stayed with him so long because I tried to convince myself it was good because he was such a special person. But finally, I let him go. It was unfair to him. He deserved to have someone who truly was in love with him. With my H, the passion was there immmediately, the "in love" was there soon after. I gave up everything to be with him because my family disapproved of him (we are different ethnicities). I gave up my very close family relationship (parents) for HIM because I loved him so much. I said to him you want friendship from me, we can definitely build that. You can't force someone to feel attracted to another person. We have the attraction, the passion, the desire, we can build the friendship.

I think that conversation gave him some things to ponder. We'll see.