I lied because I didn't want to hurt you - Marriage Builders® Forums

.. anyone else heard this line?
It bothers me that H kept using this line even when I told him several times it wasn't helping. I kept finding out more things about what he did before d-day and he would admit them but never confess himself. And he still thinks OW would be really stupid to confess to her H.
He seems to think that "not telling" is the best way to go about. That honesty is stupid if you'll hurt your partner with it.

Is it just more fog? How did you deal with it?

I hear that every other day. I have to ignore it. Can't reason with a fogster. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Lying does hurt. Honesty is the solution to adultery, not more lying.

Harley described it well in this article:

“From my perspective, honesty is part of the solution to infidelity, and so I'll take honesty for whatever reason, even if it's to relieve a feeling of guilt and depression. The revelation of an affair is very hard on an unsuspecting spouse, of course, but at the same time, it's the first step toward marital reconciliation.

Most unfaithful spouses know that their affair is one of the most heartless acts they could ever inflict on their spouse. So one of their reasons to be dishonest is to protect their spouse from emotional pain. "Why add insult to injury," they reason. "What I did was wrong, but why put my spouse through needless pain by revealing this thoughtless act?" As is the case with bank robbers and murderers, unfaithful spouses don't think they will ever be discovered, and so they don't expect their unfaithfulness to hurt their spouse.

But I am one of the very few that advocate the revelation of affairs at all costs, even when the wayward spouse has no feelings of guilt or depression to overcome. I believe that honesty is so essential to the success of marriage, that hiding past infidelity makes a marriage dishonest, preventing emotional closeness and intimacy.

It isn't honesty that causes the pain, it's the affair. Honesty is simply revealing truth to the victim. Those who advocate dishonesty regarding infidelity assume that the truth will cause such irreparable harm, that it's in the best interest of a victimized spouse to go through life with the illusion of fidelity.

It's patronizing to think that a spouse cannot bear to hear the truth. Anyone who assumes that their spouse cannot handle truth is being incredibly disrespectful, manipulative and in the final analysis, dangerous. How little you must think of your spouse when you try to protect him or her from the truth.

It's not only patronizing, but it's also false to assume that your spouse cannot bear to hear the truth. Illusions do not make us happy, they cause us to wander through life, bumping into barriers that are invisible to us because of the illusion that is created. Truth, on the other hand, reveals those barriers, and sheds light on them so that we can see well enough to overcome them. The unsuspecting spouse of an unfaithful husband or wife wonders why their marriage is not more fulfilling and more intimate. Knowledge of an affair would make it clear why all efforts have failed.

After revealing an affair, your spouse will no longer trust you. But lack of trust does not ruin a marriage, it's the lack of care and protection that ruins marriages. Your spouse should not trust you, and the sooner your spouse realizes it, the better.

The Policy of Radical Honesty is one of two rules you must follow to protect your spouse from your self-centered behavior, which includes affairs. The other rule is the Policy of Joint Agreement (never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse). If you were to be completely honest with you spouse, and you were to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement, an affair would be impossible, unless for some reason your spouse wanted you to have one.

If you knew that your affair would be discovered -- that right after having sex with your co-worker, your spouse were to find out about it -- you would probably not go through with it. And if you were honest enough with your spouse so that YOU would be the one to tell him or her what you did, your honesty would be a huge reason to avoid any affair.

How the victimized spouse should respond to the revelation of an affair is a subject of a later column. I do not have the space to treat it here. But a spouse is twice victimized when he or she is lied to about an affair. Truth is far easier to handle than lies.”

Thanks MelodyLane.
I'll have H read the text.
Any other suggestions on how to make this type of fog clear? Though I suspect it might also be a character trait (conflict avoidance, which used to be my middle name too) ?

Dear Bob,
yes my dear, from what you are posting you need a fog horn around your W. But you're doing fine, you have come a long way - compared to what you are going through my problems are very small.
I hope you'll be posting about these smaller problems yourself later on..

You know, I don't believe people really think that lying doesn't hurt,I think instead that they fear the truth will hurt them, and have rationalized it as such. In other words, it is just a poorly constructed excuse to protect themselves, not anyone else.

Yes MelodyLane,
I think so too. It's conflict avoiding.
I have been a conflict avoider myself all my life, I just wouldn't do stuff that would hurt my partner. There were times when I might have been tempted but I just thought of my partner's face if he'd walk in just at that moment and I just wasn't tempted anymore.

But the bottom line is - I can relate to conflict avoiding. I'm just trying to find gentle ways to explain to hubby that honesty feels so much better <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> .

[ August 26, 2004, 07:26 AM: Message edited by: brownhair ]

That was a great bit of info, Mel, thanks! My FWH never used this line on me, and that is what it is, a line. He simply stated the truth: he knew a second affair would devastate me and our marriage, but he did it anyway because he needed the "juice" from the affair. He was determined that I would never find out.

Well, I did.

I think if he had told me that line he knew I would have pointed out the obvious irony; if he didn't want to hurt me, he wouldn't have had the affair in the first place. Duh.

~ Snow

[ August 26, 2004, 07:39 AM: Message edited by: Snowbelle ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Snowbelle:
 That was a great bit of info, Mel, thanks! My FWH never used this line on me, and that is what it is, a line. He simply stated the truth: he knew a second affair would devastate me and our marriage, but he did it anyway because he needed the "juice" from the affair. He was determined that I would never find out.

Well, I did.

I think if he had told me that line he knew I would have pointed out the obvious irony; if he didn't want to hurt me, he wouldn't have had the affair in the first place. Duh.

~ Snow <hr /></blockquote>

Hi,

I ran into a similar problem with my husband. He took OW home 3 hours away to her parents because he said she wouldn't leave him alone. He lied to me and told me he went to visit his Mom. I called his Mom and caught him in his lie. He said he lied to protect me. Yet he wonders why I can't trust him. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Melody quoted from Harley:

"But I am one of the very few that advocate the revelation of affairs at all costs, even when the wayward spouse has no feelings of guilt or depression to overcome."

There may be a reason that so few other practitioners hold this view . . . perhaps this position is a personal conviction held by Harley derived from his Christian beliefs and the requirement for confession, and not empirically derived from his practice.

There are many, many marriage counselors in the world, and quite a few have good success rates. Not many of them demand this obedience to confession. On the other hand, when the issue becomes personal, i.e. if my spouse was actively in an affair I would want to know. If she did it ten years ago . . . I'l have to think about that one.

[ August 26, 2004, 07:47 AM: Message edited by: Comfortably Numb ]

Dear Comfortably Numb,

I guess Dr Harley has a "total view" of relationships - meeting EN, total honesty, POJA etc etc and lying about such important things indeed doesn't fit in with that view.

Not everyone wants to know. Some people might prefer not to know. I for one hate it when people lie. It's belittling and many cheaters feel they can cheat again and again over the years as long as their partner doesn't find out because "no harm is done anyway".

If it would be about a ONS that was immediately regretted "after the facts".. well just maybe.. but if it's an A that lasts a long time..

I think a man or a woman has the right to know who they are married to and to choose whether or not they want to remain in a relationship when the truth has been told.

I think total honesty has is the way to go for two reasons.

The plan A and Plan B, as I understand them are two do one of two things. Either save the marriage or help the BS get all the love units removed.

My WW is now being more honest with me, although I doubt totally, and it is really draining the love bank. The lies just hurt, but did not have much more of an effect. But when my WW told me last night that she did not care that she was having an A and was going to meet the OM for some Ice Cream after work, I felt crushed, I could almost hear the withdrawls.

So the honesty will not only:
1) Help the WS acknowledge the horror of what they are doing
2) It will help the BS get a better grip on what they are feeling towards the WS.

Its wierd, even with that statement, when she came home, she slept on our bed (first time in months) and I told her I still loved her. Although I cannot imagine loving some one like my WW for much longer.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Comfortably Numb:


There may be a reason that so few other practitioners hold this view . . . perhaps this position is a personal conviction held by Harley derived from his Christian beliefs and the requirement for confession, and not empirically derived from his practice.

<hr /></blockquote>I think Harley is one of the MOST successful, though, and this is one of the reasons why. I think this viewpoint is empircally derived from his practice which makes him a much more successful MC than most. Obviously, a marriage cannot be successful if it is based on lies. That is a rational viewpoint, that can be defended logically; logic is not exclusive to Christianity. Lying, on the other hand, cannot be defended logically.

I think the reason that many counselors recommend lying is because they are moral relativists who do not respect the truth, which is why so many are failures. I would also point out that it seems that most marriage counselors are NOT pro-marriage, Harley IS.

Even so, what matters to me is whether or not the concept of honesty is rationally SOUND; it is. What cannot be defended rationally is the concept of lying. Lying is never the solution to adultery and that path always falls apart under logical examination.

[ August 26, 2004, 08:26 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]

My WW has lied so much over this after a pretty honest lifetime previously that she now cannot tell the tuth by default.

She always tells everyone what she thinks they want to hear, or what will make them think of her in the best possible light. Even me who knows about the affair !

She also thinks that everyone else is lying all the time too. She suspects my every action and statement, another reason to keep my mouth shut and foot free for a while.

I hate lying. My mom always said that "liars better have good memories". I never have had much of a memory..... the lying will be as hard for me to forgive and recover from as the physical and emotional betrayals.

This is why I am unsophisticated in my processing of information. I just feel that telling everybody the truth won't leave egg on my face.

OM GF for example didn't need or want my additional proof of their A.

I hate having to become artful in this affair. I hate what this cr@p has done to me.

I'm probably the last person that should add my 2cents... however, after much thinking about to tell or not to tell, I've come up with the following analogy.

A man and a wife decide to drive 2000 miles cross country with their 2 kids. The husband decides to do all the driving, allowing his wife to get some rest. As the wife settles into the passenger seat, she has full faith and trust in her ability to do the driving. The husband starts off the trip fully alert and enjoying the peace and quiet while everyone in the car is asleep. At the 200 mile mark, the husband gets a little tired, but he's still doing just fine at the wheel. Once he hits the 400 mile mark, his eyes are beginning to get a little heavy and before he knows it, he jolts to attention as his car sways into the right lane where another vehicle was passing him. This gets his attention and he although he knows that he's tired, he decides he can drive a little further down the road. After regaining his composure and aligning his car up in the proper lane, he checks everyone in the car and breaths a sigh of relief when he realizes that no one has been disturbed out of their sleep induced comas. He sees no reason to wake his wife and tell her that he almost lost control of the car, after all, he was able to regain himself and control of the car.

Seven hundred miles and the husband is proud of the amount of distance he's covered. He's feeling just fine and is able to answer his wife when she briefly awakens to ask him how he's doing. "Fine, honey, you can go back to sleep. I'm going to drive a little further down the road", he says. Was this the truth? Kind of. Because while he was actually feeling ok at that moment, he had not been doing to good a little while ago. A couple hundred more miles to go and once again, his eyes are feeling heavy. He tries all of the techniques that he could think of to keep himself alert. He turned the radio on, cracked his window, drank the coffee that they had packed for the trip. While driving through a small town with barely any street lights, he notices a black dog in the middle of the road and swerves to miss it. By swerving, he almost landed their car in the ditch on the side of the highway. Once again, he straightens his car up and looks in his rearview mirror for the dog, wondering where it could have went to and where it came from.

Now he's driven nearly a 1000 miles and not only are his eyes bothering him, but so is his body. His back is starting to ache, and his legs are starting to cramp, still yet, he doesn't feel that it's bad enough to wake his wife and let her know. He feels that he can handle this on his own and that he shouldn't have to bother his wife who is sleeping so peacefully. He's been driving 10 hrs straight and besides a few minor mishaps along the way, everything was ok. His wife and kids were safely sleeping and they were all ok. Or was it?

The husband decided that he would go another 200 miles before pulling over to get some rest. He felt good about that decision and felt up to the task of driving the 200 miles without any assistance from his wife and he definitely didn't need the distractions of the kids. One hundred and fifty miles down and only fifty more to go. His body was slowly giving up on him, first his eyes, then his back, then his legs and now his feet. However, he still saw no need to wake his wife, after all, he only had 50 more miles to go.

With only 30 miles to go until the designated stopping point, the car, carrying the entire family swerved off the road, hitting a tree stump, rolling over and coming to rest on it's top. Taking the lives of the children and the wife, leaving the husband alone. Waking up in the hospital, after being told about the plight of his family, the husband began to think about some of the mistakes along the way, playing the "what if" game. What if, I would have waken up my wife to talk to me?" What if, I would have told my wife that I almost hit a car by dozing off? She might have been mad that I didn't wake her right away, but she would still be here, because she would have insisted that I pull over or she would have probably did some of the driving. What if, I would have insisted that the children wake up and distract me?, What if I would have just listened to my body, instead of my mind? So many what ifs that will never be answered.

So, I say all of that to say that sometimes, even when we think we can handle a situation and that just because we made it through whatever it is without a scratch and no one is the wiser. At some point, it will come back and will probably leave us asking the "What if's?"

double post . . .

[ August 26, 2004, 09:35 AM: Message edited by: Comfortably Numb ]

Melody said:

"I think Harley is one of the MOST successful, though, and this is one of the reasons why. I think this viewpoint is empircally derived from his practice which makes him a much more successful MC than most."

O.K Melody . . . show me the data! Where is the data that shows that Harley is one of the MOST successful. All because it is common banter around here doesn't make it so. Is this just a view that you have?

I have no problem with the confession of one's sins . . . I would see a priest though and not my spouse to scratch that itch. That is just me though.

Like I said I would probably want to know about an affair, I just don't think it is an absolute. I don't think that if this confession is not made the marriage is doomed. I have seen no published data to support this.

Even Harley says that he is one of the few practitioners that hold this view. That is why I think it is his personal moral view, not one that was arrived upon by research.

If I am wrong, I would love to read the scientific article where this is presented. I'm a data kind of guy. I know what your OPINION is I would like to see the supporting evidence.

Oh well... if you'd decide to lie about ever having had an A, you had better make pretty sure
a) it doesn't affect your health (guilt eating away at you plays havoc on your body, you know)
b) it never ever comes to light because then your partner will feel he or she has lived with a liar all those years
c) you'll never ever get the urge to tell it to get it off your conscience (see b)
d) you'd better make sure you never have another A or you're just a serial cheater who lies and hides for personal convenience, not to protect your partner
e) you will personally carry the full burden of fixing whatever is wrong in your M that made you look for your EN elsewhere in the first place

A lot of work, no? And all this because it MIGHT be better not to tell.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Comfortably Numb:


Even Harley says that he is one of the few practitioners that hold this view. That is why I think it is his personal moral view, not one that was arrived upon by research.

If I am wrong, I would love to read the scientific article where this is presented. I'm a data kind of guy. I know what your OPINION is I would like to see the supporting evidence. <hr /></blockquote>CN, Harley claims in his own bio that his success rate was over 90% in his practice and while that is anecdotal, I have no reason to doubt him. We don't need a "scientific study" to discern truth. He is one of the most popular, effective and well published marriage counselors in the US, so I have no reason to doubt his word.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi2000_meet.html

On the other hand, traditional marriage counselors have a notoriously high failure rate. That is because most are not pro-marriage, they are pro-divorce.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Even Harley says that he is one of the few practitioners that hold this view. That is why I think it is his personal moral view, not one that was arrived upon by research.
<hr /></blockquote>Yes, Harley is one of the few practitioners who hold this view, as I said, most counselors are moral relativists and have a high failure rates. But, a viewpoint's validity is determined by it's aspects, NOT by how many people support it.

However, I don't think that one needs to do "research" to know that honesty is the best policy. While honesty is a moral issue, more than anything, it can be supported rationally and pragmatically. Deceit can never be supported rationally nor could it be successfully argued that it is ever helpful for marriages.

Again, regardless of its "moral" underpinnings, a viewpoint is only as good as the aspects that support it. And logic only supports honesty. The notion that it is effective to lie your way to a happy marriage is simply not defensible and is foolish. It is politcally correct boob bait that can't withstand scrutiny. Although it is the moral way, and morals ARE absolute, we always come back to the main premise: is it logical?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Comfortably Numb:


Even Harley says that he is one of the few practitioners that hold this view. That is why I think it is his personal moral view, not one that was arrived upon by research.

<hr /></blockquote>Since you require research to come to your conclusion, I presume you have research that supports that deceit and lies are healthy practices in a marriage? Could we see that please?

My W omits the truth regularly these days. She has told me in the past she has lied or omitted the truth to save my feelings. RUBBISH! She omitted truth because she didn't want me to know the truth. PERIOD! She was ashamed of the truth and moreso afraid of the consequences of the truth.

My truest barometer with her fog state is seeing how upset she gets when I discover her lies or secrets. She still blames me for finding out the answers to questions or her actions by snooping.

"How else can I know the truth if you won't be HONEST"

She changed her email account today because I was able I cracked it and found out some of her secrets. As far as I'm concerned, if you aren't HONEST in a M then that M has no HOPE! The first step in solving any problem is to identify the problem and being dishonest only compounds the situation and allows it grow. I can handle honesty its the LIES and OMISSIONS that I can't handle. The bottom line is my W wants to continue her R with OM and her lying about it only prolongs my agony. Her being dishonest takes away my freedom of choice, because with accurate information we are able to make informed decisions in our lives. She does not help our M or me by lying, she instead is only further derailing US and impeding our chances of reconciliatin and recovery, but since right now she not sure if she wants or doesn't want to be M to me it makes sense, it's UNETHICAL but it makes sense. You are honest with your spouse if you genuinely want to save your M because only by tackling the causes of those things you lie about can your M actually be saved.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MelodyLane:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Comfortably Numb:


Even Harley says that he is one of the few practitioners that hold this view. That is why I think it is his personal moral view, not one that was arrived upon by research.

<hr /></blockquote>Since you require research to come to your conclusion, I presume you have research that supports that deceit and lies are healthy practices in a marriage? Could we see that please? <hr /></blockquote>Can you offer nothing more than conjecture, here say, an anecdotal information to support your view?

The fact remains that and absolute demand that an affair be admitted has a better marital outcome then not-admitting has not been proved. I could care less if it is the “right thing to do”. I think it matters more if marriages can be reconciled, especially if there are children involved. Divorce is devastating to children, I can post some refs. if you doubt this.

In your moral absolutism, what does one do if their spouse is potentially violent? Does one confess and hope for the best? Maybe they won’t kill me?

Lifted form the local news here, and much abbreviated. Wife admits to affair, husband shoot her in the head. This happened in a department store parking lot as she and the kids were walking to the car.

Moral absolutes are fine in theory, it is when they touch the lives or real people that it becomes complicated.

Finally, I am not advocating a position Melody, you are. That is why I asked you for the data to back up what you are presenting as the truth. You can’t . . . maybe because it doesn’t exists

Dear Brownhair,

I too heard I lied because I didn't want to hurt you. This line ticks me off because I begged him to tell me the full truth after I found out about the PA. He lied and I finally got it all 6 months later ( I think). Lying during recovery is devastating for the BS. Here you are at the pit of despair, thinking you are crawling out only to find later more dirt is raining down on you.

I think the WS lies as a way to avoid the full magnitude of what they have done. My WH lied about using a condom. I think when I asked him about using a condom it occurred to him how much he had put his own and my life at risk for his fling and he couldn't face it. I genuinely don't understand how he could not see that before the A.

I think lying is bad for marriages for a couple of reasons:
1) it keeps spouses from getting close
2) it shows that the lying spouse doesn't trust the other spouse
3) it gives the lying spouse power in the relationship because he is the only one that knows the truth.

To have a really vibrant relationship I think two people have to be willing to share the truth with each other--even the ugly stuff.

Gillian, BS
husband is WS
PA 11/1/03-12/18/03
d-day 1 12/18/03
d-day 2 7/7/04 found out all details of first PA and EA 1996-?
married 11 years.

nothing kills a recovery like deceit

<blockquote>quote:<hr />In your moral absolutism, what does one do if their spouse is potentially violent? Does one confess and hope for the best? Maybe they won’t kill me?
<hr /></blockquote>If morals are not absolute, then what is wrong with violence? What is wrong with murdering someone? Or are you saying that only SOME morals are "absolute" and others are not? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />The fact remains that and absolute demand that an affair be admitted has a better marital outcome then not-admitting has not been proved. I could care less if it is the “right thing to do”.<hr /></blockquote>CN, and maybe that is your own "moral standard." but it is not that of others. Your moral standard is to NOT CARE if something is the right thing to do. What has been proved is that lies and deceit are disasterous to a marriage. You can't seriously argue against that point logically.

So where do we draw the line with disclosure? Is it enough that we admit to an affair? Or perhaps we should disclose every grueling detail.

What if the BS says 'STOP'? Do we say, "Honey, I'm going to continue because Dr. Harley says it's good for us."

What kinds of details are too much? Does the spouse need to know that the OP was far more skilled in bed? That they had a better body? That you really thought the OP was more compatible with you as a friend? That you thought the OP was smarter?

When does disclosure become outright cruelty?

Be careful what you ask for. You just might get it.

Low

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MelodyLane:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />In your moral absolutism, what does one do if their spouse is potentially violent? Does one confess and hope for the best? Maybe they won’t kill me?
<hr /></blockquote>If morals are not absolute, then what is wrong with violence? What is wrong with murdering someone? Or are you saying that only SOME morals are "absolute" and others are not? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />The fact remains that and absolute demand that an affair be admitted has a better marital outcome then not-admitting has not been proved. I could care less if it is the “right thing to do”.<hr /></blockquote>CN, and maybe that is your own "moral standard." but it is not that of others. Your moral standard is to NOT CARE if something is the right thing to do. What has been proved is that lies and deceit are disasterous to a marriage. You can't seriously argue against that point logically. <hr /></blockquote>Can one kill during war? For self-defense? These moral codes ARE NOT ABSOLUTE. It is illogical to blindly hang to some belief when presented with evidence that is contrary to that stance. All killing isn’t necessarily a sin.

Your not supposed to lie, what if lying saves someone’s life?

You refuse to answer the difficult questions . . . why is that? I’ll ask you again: if a spouse is potentially violent, where you think your life might be in danger, should you still reveal an affair? What if the BS has a history of mental illness and attempted suicides? I’m sure you will ignore these situations, yet again, because they muddy your absolute moral stances. But I'm sure you will respond with some clever repartee. I’ve noticed you like to have the last word. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

[ August 26, 2004, 02:05 PM: Message edited by: Comfortably Numb ]

It may be true that a small percentage of cheaters think this way "I'm protecting my spouse by lieing about the affair", but for my case and several others I've read here over the years, they, (WS) are in "selfish-mode", and are looking out only for number 1. An affair by definition is an incredibly "selfish" act.

As was my then-H during his affairs. At one point I found written on his note pad, along with a to do list for moving <unbeknownst to me>, "Hell to pay when she finds out".

Just who do you think he was worried about "paying hell" for discovery. Certainly not me, who was currently in cancer treatment. He was worried about himself and any hurt or inconvenience HE may incur from my discovery.

I just think this one Harley article does not represent the majority of WS's feelings or true motives when active <operative word> in an affair. I truly believe the WS's are only looking out for themselves during it, and it's the rare exception the one's that are genuinely worried about the BS feelings or well being.

JMVHO,
Jo

[ August 26, 2004, 02:01 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by LowOrbit:
 So where do we draw the line with disclosure? Is it enough that we admit to an affair? Or perhaps we should disclose every grueling detail.

What if the BS says 'STOP'? Do we say, "Honey, I'm going to continue because Dr. Harley says it's good for us."

What kinds of details are too much? Does the spouse need to know that the OP was far more skilled in bed? That they had a better body? That you really thought the OP was more compatible with you as a friend? That you thought the OP was smarter?

When does disclosure become outright cruelty?

Be careful what you ask for. You just might get it.

Low <hr /></blockquote>Low,
I agree if can't handle the truth, you'd better not ask for it. I can only speak for myself, if I ask the truth I want the truth. It may hurt, it may be difficult to swallow and I may choose not to swallow it, but leave my decisions up to me. I am no child, I am not made of glass and if my wife reveals something to me that is hard to hear I'll ever get over it or I won't. I'm not suggesting someone should be callous enough to rattle off a barage of truths and in your scenario those are perceptions NOT truths. If OM is smarter than me? What is the scale for that judgement? An IQ test? Was he able to spot a pick pocket? Did he have more knowledge of current events? To me, a truth would be cut and dry like,
"Where were you last night?"
"Have you contacted OM today?"
"Did you let OM ride in my Damned Expedition?" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

See my point? There is a difference between that and was OM better in bed? ONe is definitive and the other highly subjective and open to interpertation and feelings.

[ August 26, 2004, 02:08 PM: Message edited by: FamilyMatters ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I just think this one Harley article does not represent the majority of WS's feelings or true motives when active <operative word> in an affair. I truly believe the WS's are only looking out for themselves during it, and it's the rare exception the one's that are genuinely worried about the BS feelings or well being. <hr /></blockquote>I think you are basing this on the feelings that most BS's express on this forum. This does not necessarily mean that it is so. I think almost all WS's who have posted here have been extremely concerned about hurting their spouses.

I know that I was. I felt no guilt for my affair while it was in progress. I had no fear of what my wife could do to me. However, I knew that I still loved her and I knew that I wanted to be discreet to avoid hurting her. As I've said before, if I hadn't been caught, I would've continued the affair indefinitely because I had rationalized that it wasn't wrong as long as it wasn't hurting my wife. As long as my wife didn't know, it wasn't hurting her. So I kept it secret.

Of course, I've spent the last couple of years in an MB re-education camp and am now fully versed in the error of my ways.

So from MY perspective (which is as valid to me as your is to you), I would tend to think that MOST WS's are concerned about hurting their spouse. Just stopping the affair won't work - the horse is out of the barn. Hiding the affair seems to be the only viable choice.

Low

LO..I have been thinking about the lines of disclosure and this is what I ahve come up with..tell me what you think.

It is all about the attitude of the WS and almost not at all about where the lines actually fall. You are correct..not everyone wants to know everything.

If the attitude of the WS or FWS is one of remorse and honesty and the only thing that would hold them back from disclosing is that htye do not wish to further hurt their spouse...then I suggest this would solve the problem without deceit and without arrogantly presuming what the BS can and can not handle as though they were a child...

Tell them that you are willing to answer honestly any question that they ask you, however tell them that some of these answers are likely to hurt them and that you will not disclose them unless asked. Then carry this out. It is both respectfull to the BS and puts the accountability for dealing with what is disclosed at their feet. You are willing to tell them..but they will have to live with knowing. Both parties need to understand that once done..this can't be undone..so tread lightly. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

However..most WS do not fail to disclose because they want to spare their spouses..they want to spare themselves. They keep secrets specifically so that they will not have to pay the consequences and refuse to be truthfull even when confronted with solid evidence of their activities and their deceit.

I think that these two differring attitudes will stand in stark contrast with each other. I think that most BSs would appreciate the former and be enraged and frustrated by the latter.

Comfortably Numb..

Here's my .02 about failing to disclose the affair in order to "save" the marriage.

Scenario:
You are an adult..and have taken action. Your action may result in your partner deciding that they no longer wish to have this relationship with you. So, in order to preserve the relationship, you do not tell them. The relationship continues and everyone is happy..correct?

Well, unfortunately no..because people usually are eventually caught..and then not in one lie but many..but even if a person were to be successful in this....

...it is incredibly cruel to do so. Your spouse is also an adult..and by deceiving them, you are denying them the opportunity to make their own choices and base their decisions on factual information. They are essentially held hostage in the relationship because you have fixed things to your liking without taking them into consideration as a person who is as free as you are. This is your peer, not your pet. They do not need to be pacified. To assume that you know best for them is arrogant in the extreme..and also not likely something that you would tolerate should the tables be turned.

--Noodle

My .02?

Some WS do not want to divulge the intimate details because it will tarnish and cheapen the A and the memory will not be the fantasy place to which they can retreat.

k

Noodle said:
“Scenario:
You are an adult..and have taken action. Your action may result in your partner deciding that they no longer wish to have this relationship with you. So, in order to preserve the relationship, you do not tell them. The relationship continues and everyone is happy..correct?

Well, unfortunately no..because people usually are eventually caught..and then not in one lie but many..but even if a person were to be successful in this....

...it is incredibly cruel to do so. Your spouse is also an adult..and by deceiving them, you are denying them the opportunity to make their own choices and base their decisions on factual information. They are essentially held hostage in the relationship because you have fixed things to your liking without taking them into consideration as a person who is as free as you are. This is your peer, not your pet. They do not need to be pacified. To assume that you know best for them is arrogant in the extreme..and also not likely something that you would tolerate should the tables be turned.”

I don’t advocate lying. I’ve been having a discussion about the necessity of disclosure in ALL cases.

Now on to the situation you posed. People do not disclose past affairs for many reasons, to assume that they are all motivated by fear of consequences to them is false. I think it is pretty arrogant to believe that all WS have this motivation. Many competent counselors with proven recovery statistics generally advocate disclosure in most cases, but not in all. That is my point.

I understand what you are saying, but I don’t think the situation you described is valid for many WS. Some don’t tell because they don’t want their children to be from a divorced, some because they fear a bullet in the head, some because they fear a bullet in the BS’s head, and on and on.

Life is messy, one-size-fits-all solutions like this mandatory confession are often inappropriate.

THIS IS JUST MY OPINION!!! and it happens to be the opinion held by the majority of folk in the marriage recover field. Harley states often that he is in a very small minority of practitioners that hold his view.

Originally posted by Comfortably Numb:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />The fact remains that and absolute demand that an affair be admitted has a better marital outcome then not-admitting has not been proved. I could care less if it is the “right thing to do”.<hr /></blockquote>CN, yes, it has been proven logically. You have not been able to refute Harley's excellent defense of the truth in his article. So it stands, as is. You simply can't produce a rational argument that would support that it is good for a marriage to be based on lies and deceit. One doesn't need a "study" to support a logically justified argument. Do you need a "study" to prove that murder is bad? Of course you don't that is silly. [well, maybe you do since you don't believe in moral absolutes]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Can one kill during war? <hr /></blockquote>But one can kill anywhere, anytime according to your logic. You say there are no absolutes, so it is never wrong to murder - or kill. Nor did your attempt to mix word meanings achieve a logical argument against moral absolutes. Killing is not necessarily the same as murder. Murder is absolutely wrong, self defense is not. Rational people recognize the difference..

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I’ll ask you again: if a spouse is potentially violent, where you think your life might be in danger, should you still reveal an affair? What if the BS has a history of mental illness and attempted suicides? I’m sure you will ignore these situations, yet again, because they muddy your absolute moral stances.<hr /></blockquote>But you can't ask this question without demolishing your argument, CN. Don't you see that you have just destroyed your own argument with this question?

I will ask again, if there are no moral absolutes, how can you say that violence is bad? How can you say that suicide is bad?

Complete cyclic logic Melody . . .

Please try again.

Ok Cn...

I'll give you that one. It is arrogant to assume that I know what motivates all WSs everywhere.

Now I have a question for you.

Was it the affair..or the disclosure of the affair that caused the damage?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Comfortably Numb:
 Complete cyclic logic Melody . . .

Please try again. <hr /></blockquote>CN, I am using your logic, though. You can't very well claim there are no moral absolutes and then turn around and claim that violence and suicide are bad. Surely you can see the glaring problem with your argument? Can you really not see that you have gone off the cliff?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Comfortably Numb:


THIS IS JUST MY OPINION!!! and it happens to be the opinion held by the majority of folk in the marriage recover field. Harley states often that he is in a very small minority of practitioners that hold his view. <hr /></blockquote>But this does not make it a valid or correct opinion. Majority opinion is irrelevent to the validity of a viewpoint. The majority of pre-WWII Germans thought that Jews were "subhuman." Did that make it true? The value of a viewpoint is based on it's OWN MERITS, not on how many people believe it.

CN,

I love it when someone puts words in a persons mouth who cannot respond and proceeds to agrue against the words that have been placed there by arguer.

Harley, does NOT say that thought should be suspended. He recommends honesty in most if not all normal marriage situations. His success rate is impressive, but one thing is clear. The statement that he is one of the few is no longer correct. You must recall when that book was written.

It is now recognized in encouraged by many counselors of national level, including none other than Dr. Phil. It is also recommend by Peggy (darn phone range and now cannot recall her name), as well as many other published "experts" on this matter.

One thing you missed in your use of telling a spouse that is prone to abuse or is abusive. Harley recommends leaving that marriage,not trying to rebuild it. And one has to question the person that is so afraid of a spouse that they cannot be honest, but does have an affair.

The honesty approach is catching along with the concept that divorces do hurt children. It is catching on because it seems to offer the best chance to rebuild the marriage and address the issues within the marriage.

There are still many counselors trained up until this last decade that adhere to what is at best "measured" honesty. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> But the reality most of them are left over from the "if it feels good do it" approach to life and counseling. AND IT FEELS GOOD TO LIE AND NOT HAVE TO FACE YOUR SPOUSE.

So while you paint Harley as "radical honesty" for ALL situations that is NOT the case. You are arguing against your own strawman, not Harley.

You probably don't realize that he has been a marriage counselor for decades but he was also a very successful counselor for those addicted to drugs and alcohol. Hence his stance that he will NOT do marriage counseling if one of the partners is still addicted to some substance or thing. It won't work until the addiction is addressed.

Is he perfect, I am certain that is not the case. But if one is talking about "rebuilding" a marriage rather than just keeping one on life support, then addressing the issues that lead to an affair are crucial, but that can only happen with honesty about the affair and the reasons for it. Otherwise, at least one of the people is simply cruising along in ignorance.

From my perspective, ignorance is NOT the state of mind that leads to advancement. One should at least be aware of the problem and issues.

One, last thing. You may not have noticed but this is NOT a religious based site. I know many posters come here and discuss their religion and how it helped them, but that is their choice. When people are hurt the often fall back to their core beliefs and those are often religious in nature.

It is sort of like the bumper sticker which says <blockquote>quote:<hr /> As long as there are tests, there will be prayer in school <hr /></blockquote><img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

So if you don't like the approach to rebuilding a marriage, fine say so and be done with it. If you have doubts fine, doubt. But, frankly you are going to have to admit to yourself, that the people that post here are self-selected because they understand the approach AND they find it works in addressing this very painful subject. They are their own data.

Finally, while the focus seems to be on affairs, the reality is that the approach Harley is talking about is designed for rebuilding marriages where affairs have not entered the picture and won't. The marriage is just failing and at least one spouse is wondering why. So frankly, the affair part is a subset of a larger picture.

I solve problems for a living, and I have for many decades, and I have yet to solve a problem that I did not at least quantify and identify.

Perhaps you have.

JL

"and it happens to be the opinion held by the majority of folk in the marriage recover field"

I had one of these 2its 2 years ago. The "measured honesty" IC. I had discovered my W's A by accident. I was so trusting it'd make your head spin how ig'rant I was of what was going on. My IC said "I usually advise my clients who have had an A but ended it on their own, not 2 tell the BS". He believed that "what they don't know won't hurt him". No jive! He was an otherwise good counselor, though, so I stuck with him for a few months. It was the "measured honesty" discussion we had (I posted my thoughts on it over 2 years ago here) that got me wondering about the wisdom of continuing with him.

The term "measured honesty" itself implies a "measure of deceit". I don't know about you, but my brain would short out and sparks would come out my ears if I tried 2 live like that for more than a handful of femtoseconds.

I told him that, yes, finding out about my W's 12-yr A (11-yrs old at the time) sure as hell hurt, but what if I'd found out about it 20 years from now??? Could I start over in my 70s? I'd sure have a hard time wanting 2 rebuild after more than 40 years of "same time next year" nonsense going on behind my family's back.

Homey don't play that. Never will.

Give me radical honesty any day.

-ol' 2long

Melody said:

"But this does not make it a valid or correct opinion. Majority opinion is irrelevent to the validity of a viewpoint. The majority of pre-WWII Germans thought that Jews were "subhuman." Did that make it true? The value of a viewpoint is based on it's OWN MERITS, not on how many people believe it."

When someone trivializes the Holocaust to prop up a vapid argument on a discussion forum the dialog is at an end.

That's a nice diversion, CN, but it doesn't help your case.

Thanks JL. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />