.. anyone else heard this line?
It bothers me that H kept using this line even when I told him several times it wasn't helping. I kept finding out more things about what he did before d-day and he would admit them but never confess himself. And he still thinks OW would be really stupid to confess to her H.
He seems to think that "not telling" is the best way to go about. That honesty is stupid if you'll hurt your partner with it.

Is it just more fog? How did you deal with it?

I hear that every other day. I have to ignore it. Can't reason with a fogster. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Lying does hurt. Honesty is the solution to adultery, not more lying.

Harley described it well in this article:

“From my perspective, honesty is part of the solution to infidelity, and so I'll take honesty for whatever reason, even if it's to relieve a feeling of guilt and depression. The revelation of an affair is very hard on an unsuspecting spouse, of course, but at the same time, it's the first step toward marital reconciliation.

Most unfaithful spouses know that their affair is one of the most heartless acts they could ever inflict on their spouse. So one of their reasons to be dishonest is to protect their spouse from emotional pain. "Why add insult to injury," they reason. "What I did was wrong, but why put my spouse through needless pain by revealing this thoughtless act?" As is the case with bank robbers and murderers, unfaithful spouses don't think they will ever be discovered, and so they don't expect their unfaithfulness to hurt their spouse.

But I am one of the very few that advocate the revelation of affairs at all costs, even when the wayward spouse has no feelings of guilt or depression to overcome. I believe that honesty is so essential to the success of marriage, that hiding past infidelity makes a marriage dishonest, preventing emotional closeness and intimacy.

It isn't honesty that causes the pain, it's the affair. Honesty is simply revealing truth to the victim. Those who advocate dishonesty regarding infidelity assume that the truth will cause such irreparable harm, that it's in the best interest of a victimized spouse to go through life with the illusion of fidelity.

It's patronizing to think that a spouse cannot bear to hear the truth. Anyone who assumes that their spouse cannot handle truth is being incredibly disrespectful, manipulative and in the final analysis, dangerous. How little you must think of your spouse when you try to protect him or her from the truth.

It's not only patronizing, but it's also false to assume that your spouse cannot bear to hear the truth. Illusions do not make us happy, they cause us to wander through life, bumping into barriers that are invisible to us because of the illusion that is created. Truth, on the other hand, reveals those barriers, and sheds light on them so that we can see well enough to overcome them. The unsuspecting spouse of an unfaithful husband or wife wonders why their marriage is not more fulfilling and more intimate. Knowledge of an affair would make it clear why all efforts have failed.

After revealing an affair, your spouse will no longer trust you. But lack of trust does not ruin a marriage, it's the lack of care and protection that ruins marriages. Your spouse should not trust you, and the sooner your spouse realizes it, the better.

The Policy of Radical Honesty is one of two rules you must follow to protect your spouse from your self-centered behavior, which includes affairs. The other rule is the Policy of Joint Agreement (never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse). If you were to be completely honest with you spouse, and you were to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement, an affair would be impossible, unless for some reason your spouse wanted you to have one.

If you knew that your affair would be discovered -- that right after having sex with your co-worker, your spouse were to find out about it -- you would probably not go through with it. And if you were honest enough with your spouse so that YOU would be the one to tell him or her what you did, your honesty would be a huge reason to avoid any affair.

How the victimized spouse should respond to the revelation of an affair is a subject of a later column. I do not have the space to treat it here. But a spouse is twice victimized when he or she is lied to about an affair. Truth is far easier to handle than lies.”

Thanks MelodyLane.
I'll have H read the text.
Any other suggestions on how to make this type of fog clear? Though I suspect it might also be a character trait (conflict avoidance, which used to be my middle name too) ?

Dear Bob,
yes my dear, from what you are posting you need a fog horn around your W. But you're doing fine, you have come a long way - compared to what you are going through my problems are very small.
I hope you'll be posting about these smaller problems yourself later on..

You know, I don't believe people really think that lying doesn't hurt,I think instead that they fear the truth will hurt them, and have rationalized it as such. In other words, it is just a poorly constructed excuse to protect themselves, not anyone else.

Yes MelodyLane,
I think so too. It's conflict avoiding.
I have been a conflict avoider myself all my life, I just wouldn't do stuff that would hurt my partner. There were times when I might have been tempted but I just thought of my partner's face if he'd walk in just at that moment and I just wasn't tempted anymore.

But the bottom line is - I can relate to conflict avoiding. I'm just trying to find gentle ways to explain to hubby that honesty feels so much better <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> .

<small>[ August 26, 2004, 07:26 AM: Message edited by: brownhair ]</small>

That was a great bit of info, Mel, thanks! My FWH never used this line on me, and that is what it is, a line. He simply stated the truth: he knew a second affair would devastate me and our marriage, but he did it anyway because he needed the "juice" from the affair. He was determined that I would never find out.

Well, I did.

I think if he had told me that line he knew I would have pointed out the obvious irony; if he didn't want to hurt me, he wouldn't have had the affair in the first place. Duh.

~ Snow

<small>[ August 26, 2004, 07:39 AM: Message edited by: Snowbelle ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Snowbelle:
<strong> That was a great bit of info, Mel, thanks! My FWH never used this line on me, and that is what it is, a line. He simply stated the truth: he knew a second affair would devastate me and our marriage, but he did it anyway because he needed the "juice" from the affair. He was determined that I would never find out.

Well, I did.

I think if he had told me that line he knew I would have pointed out the obvious irony; if he didn't want to hurt me, he wouldn't have had the affair in the first place. Duh.

~ Snow </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Hi,

I ran into a similar problem with my husband. He took OW home 3 hours away to her parents because he said she wouldn't leave him alone. He lied to me and told me he went to visit his Mom. I called his Mom and caught him in his lie. He said he lied to protect me. Yet he wonders why I can't trust him. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Melody quoted from Harley:


"But I am one of the very few that advocate the revelation of affairs at all costs, even when the wayward spouse has no feelings of guilt or depression to overcome."

There may be a reason that so few other practitioners hold this view . . . perhaps this position is a personal conviction held by Harley derived from his Christian beliefs and the requirement for confession, and not empirically derived from his practice.

There are many, many marriage counselors in the world, and quite a few have good success rates. Not many of them demand this obedience to confession. On the other hand, when the issue becomes personal, i.e. if my spouse was actively in an affair I would want to know. If she did it ten years ago . . . I'l have to think about that one.

<small>[ August 26, 2004, 07:47 AM: Message edited by: Comfortably Numb ]</small>

Dear Comfortably Numb,

I guess Dr Harley has a "total view" of relationships - meeting EN, total honesty, POJA etc etc and lying about such important things indeed doesn't fit in with that view.

Not everyone wants to know. Some people might prefer not to know. I for one hate it when people lie. It's belittling and many cheaters feel they can cheat again and again over the years as long as their partner doesn't find out because "no harm is done anyway".

If it would be about a ONS that was immediately regretted "after the facts".. well just maybe.. but if it's an A that lasts a long time..

I think a man or a woman has the right to know who they are married to and to choose whether or not they want to remain in a relationship when the truth has been told.

I think total honesty has is the way to go for two reasons.

The plan A and Plan B, as I understand them are two do one of two things. Either save the marriage or help the BS get all the love units removed.

My WW is now being more honest with me, although I doubt totally, and it is really draining the love bank. The lies just hurt, but did not have much more of an effect. But when my WW told me last night that she did not care that she was having an A and was going to meet the OM for some Ice Cream after work, I felt crushed, I could almost hear the withdrawls.

So the honesty will not only:
1) Help the WS acknowledge the horror of what they are doing
2) It will help the BS get a better grip on what they are feeling towards the WS.

Its wierd, even with that statement, when she came home, she slept on our bed (first time in months) and I told her I still loved her. Although I cannot imagine loving some one like my WW for much longer.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Comfortably Numb:
<strong>

There may be a reason that so few other practitioners hold this view . . . perhaps this position is a personal conviction held by Harley derived from his Christian beliefs and the requirement for confession, and not empirically derived from his practice.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think Harley is one of the MOST successful, though, and this is one of the reasons why. I think this viewpoint is empircally derived from his practice which makes him a much more successful MC than most. Obviously, a marriage cannot be successful if it is based on lies. That is a rational viewpoint, that can be defended logically; logic is not exclusive to Christianity. Lying, on the other hand, cannot be defended logically.

I think the reason that many counselors recommend lying is because they are moral relativists who do not respect the truth, which is why so many are failures. I would also point out that it seems that most marriage counselors are NOT pro-marriage, Harley IS.

Even so, what matters to me is whether or not the concept of honesty is rationally SOUND; it is. What cannot be defended rationally is the concept of lying. Lying is never the solution to adultery and that path always falls apart under logical examination.

<small>[ August 26, 2004, 08:26 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

My WW has lied so much over this after a pretty honest lifetime previously that she now cannot tell the tuth by default.

She always tells everyone what she thinks they want to hear, or what will make them think of her in the best possible light. Even me who knows about the affair !

She also thinks that everyone else is lying all the time too. She suspects my every action and statement, another reason to keep my mouth shut and foot free for a while.

I hate lying. My mom always said that "liars better have good memories". I never have had much of a memory..... the lying will be as hard for me to forgive and recover from as the physical and emotional betrayals.

This is why I am unsophisticated in my processing of information. I just feel that telling everybody the truth won't leave egg on my face.

OM GF for example didn't need or want my additional proof of their A.

I hate having to become artful in this affair. I hate what this cr@p has done to me.

I'm probably the last person that should add my 2cents... however, after much thinking about to tell or not to tell, I've come up with the following analogy.

A man and a wife decide to drive 2000 miles cross country with their 2 kids. The husband decides to do all the driving, allowing his wife to get some rest. As the wife settles into the passenger seat, she has full faith and trust in her ability to do the driving. The husband starts off the trip fully alert and enjoying the peace and quiet while everyone in the car is asleep. At the 200 mile mark, the husband gets a little tired, but he's still doing just fine at the wheel. Once he hits the 400 mile mark, his eyes are beginning to get a little heavy and before he knows it, he jolts to attention as his car sways into the right lane where another vehicle was passing him. This gets his attention and he although he knows that he's tired, he decides he can drive a little further down the road. After regaining his composure and aligning his car up in the proper lane, he checks everyone in the car and breaths a sigh of relief when he realizes that no one has been disturbed out of their sleep induced comas. He sees no reason to wake his wife and tell her that he almost lost control of the car, after all, he was able to regain himself and control of the car.

Seven hundred miles and the husband is proud of the amount of distance he's covered. He's feeling just fine and is able to answer his wife when she briefly awakens to ask him how he's doing. "Fine, honey, you can go back to sleep. I'm going to drive a little further down the road", he says. Was this the truth? Kind of. Because while he was actually feeling ok at that moment, he had not been doing to good a little while ago. A couple hundred more miles to go and once again, his eyes are feeling heavy. He tries all of the techniques that he could think of to keep himself alert. He turned the radio on, cracked his window, drank the coffee that they had packed for the trip. While driving through a small town with barely any street lights, he notices a black dog in the middle of the road and swerves to miss it. By swerving, he almost landed their car in the ditch on the side of the highway. Once again, he straightens his car up and looks in his rearview mirror for the dog, wondering where it could have went to and where it came from.

Now he's driven nearly a 1000 miles and not only are his eyes bothering him, but so is his body. His back is starting to ache, and his legs are starting to cramp, still yet, he doesn't feel that it's bad enough to wake his wife and let her know. He feels that he can handle this on his own and that he shouldn't have to bother his wife who is sleeping so peacefully. He's been driving 10 hrs straight and besides a few minor mishaps along the way, everything was ok. His wife and kids were safely sleeping and they were all ok. Or was it?

The husband decided that he would go another 200 miles before pulling over to get some rest. He felt good about that decision and felt up to the task of driving the 200 miles without any assistance from his wife and he definitely didn't need the distractions of the kids. One hundred and fifty miles down and only fifty more to go. His body was slowly giving up on him, first his eyes, then his back, then his legs and now his feet. However, he still saw no need to wake his wife, after all, he only had 50 more miles to go.

With only 30 miles to go until the designated stopping point, the car, carrying the entire family swerved off the road, hitting a tree stump, rolling over and coming to rest on it's top. Taking the lives of the children and the wife, leaving the husband alone. Waking up in the hospital, after being told about the plight of his family, the husband began to think about some of the mistakes along the way, playing the "what if" game. What if, I would have waken up my wife to talk to me?" What if, I would have told my wife that I almost hit a car by dozing off? She might have been mad that I didn't wake her right away, but she would still be here, because she would have insisted that I pull over or she would have probably did some of the driving. What if, I would have insisted that the children wake up and distract me?, What if I would have just listened to my body, instead of my mind? So many what ifs that will never be answered.

So, I say all of that to say that sometimes, even when we think we can handle a situation and that just because we made it through whatever it is without a scratch and no one is the wiser. At some point, it will come back and will probably leave us asking the "What if's?"

double post . . .

<small>[ August 26, 2004, 09:35 AM: Message edited by: Comfortably Numb ]</small>

Melody said:

"I think Harley is one of the MOST successful, though, and this is one of the reasons why. I think this viewpoint is empircally derived from his practice which makes him a much more successful MC than most."

O.K Melody . . . show me the data! Where is the data that shows that Harley is one of the MOST successful. All because it is common banter around here doesn't make it so. Is this just a view that you have?

I have no problem with the confession of one's sins . . . I would see a priest though and not my spouse to scratch that itch. That is just me though.

Like I said I would probably want to know about an affair, I just don't think it is an absolute. I don't think that if this confession is not made the marriage is doomed. I have seen no published data to support this.

Even Harley says that he is one of the few practitioners that hold this view. That is why I think it is his personal moral view, not one that was arrived upon by research.

If I am wrong, I would love to read the scientific article where this is presented. I'm a data kind of guy. I know what your OPINION is I would like to see the supporting evidence.

Oh well... if you'd decide to lie about ever having had an A, you had better make pretty sure
a) it doesn't affect your health (guilt eating away at you plays havoc on your body, you know)
b) it never ever comes to light because then your partner will feel he or she has lived with a liar all those years
c) you'll never ever get the urge to tell it to get it off your conscience (see b)
d) you'd better make sure you never have another A or you're just a serial cheater who lies and hides for personal convenience, not to protect your partner
e) you will personally carry the full burden of fixing whatever is wrong in your M that made you look for your EN elsewhere in the first place

A lot of work, no? And all this because it MIGHT be better not to tell.