My Marriage is Over and it's my fault not my W's

Marriage Builders

Dear Board,
I have spoken to my W and she answered some very difficult questions. I had thought so many stupid things. I've made such huge mistakes. I apologize to all of you for my actions and my foolishness. I cheated on my wife 10 years ago, though I did not intend to, it is what I did. I had an EA which did turn into a PA. I was young, dumb, misinformed, selfish and depressed when I met OW. I was a complete fool. At the time me and my W were struggling to make ends meet. I had been the provider, though ill-equipped with direction to lead my family or deal with the many pressures I was facing. I am not making excuses, I am just stating how dumb I was. I was very very dumb. I met OW with a group of friends and it was nothing to begin with, just a friendship. My W and I were going thru problems and I turned to my friends and OW. She made me feel good about myself, I no longer felt depressed like I was losing everything. I couldn't find a job for close to a year and I was drinking heavily. I became involved with this woman and things became more and more complicated. Before I knew it I felt responsible for the OW and her children. I fooled myself into thinking I was NOT a [censored] if I helped her find a better life. While I did these stupid things my W and D suffered. This cruelty went on for years, approximately 4 or so. I had tried to mend things with my wife during that time we even had another child, moved into a terrick house but I couldn't free myself of the OW. My wife and I became separated. During our separation my W met OM. I didn't know it at the time, but she was falling in love with him. I finally was able to pull myself from OW and tried to reconcile with my W but I had no luck. She told me she wanted a divorce. I did not, I wanted us to fix our marriage. I could not win her back, she was involved with OM and they were in a serious relationship at this point, of course I found out later as time went on. No attempts on my part worked and I felt respoonsible for the entire collapse of our M.

This was almost 5 years ago. I began a quest to better myself as a man. My W gave me physical custody of my S and I began the process of growing. I always regretted my stupid, selfish choices and wanted her back in my life to rebuild what I had destroyed. I finally gave up on my W coming back and I continued on with my life. Her relationship with OM disintergrated due to her straddling the fence between her feelings for him and I. I am just learning of the whole truths tonight. I made such a wreck of my family! I am ashamed. OM even proposed to my W, I had no idea. My W reportedly gave him back his ring and soon after returned to me. I finally had my family back together again and I was never going to screw this up. I had changed my entire lifestyle. I had tried to do everything in my power to win back my W's love. I thought this is what she wanted as she did return after YEARS of being separated.

After 2 years of reconciling I discover that my W was still in contact with OM. I guess it became my time to be devestated. I was devestated and I sought out this website for answers. I just talked to my W and she has told me all of these truths about how she feels. She does not regret her R with OM and she resents me for not being there because of my involvement with OW. I know that I cannot discount my actions with immaturity and naivete though I was very selfish. I have changed. I am no longer a selfish 25 year old. I am a much better dad, a much better husband a much more honest, wiser man. I NEVER knew how my W felt about my actions. I had fooled myself into thinking that due to our age, me not being capable of all my responsibilities that she had somehow overlooked my stupidity and foolish ways. I was wrong.

I was beyond foolish and beyond lost. Now I feel I deserve this pain, though I have changed. I now realize how damaging my actions were and how I mistreated my W. Infact I realized this all years ago, but I had prayed I was forgiven because of my actions over the few years. I see now that my W is entitled not to love me or want to heal this marriage. I am so sorry that I ruined my life and my marriage and hurt her over and over again. I do not know if my W will ever forgive me and worse I don't think she wants to be my W. She says she only reconciled with me for the childrens sake. I have been trying to make up for my mistakes for so very long. She is not the blame, I am the blame. I hurt her years ago and now she has hurt me, but to make matters worse she doesn't feel her R with OM was wrong because I had an A. I am so very lost and confused and full of guilt. I was stupid to think that when she came back to me after 3 years that she had forgiven me and that I had an opportunity to reclaim my family as a whole, to put the pieces back together. I fear that I will not be able to do this. I am writing this to let you all know that I am sorry. I am writing this because I have not being that selfish kid in quite some time and I wish I could mend our marriage. I don't know what to do except pray that my GOD forgives me and will allow me to find peace. My W is very hurt and it is likely we will become divorced and it's all my fault. I have changed and I thought I had showed her that, but after learning how she really feels I don't think it was in time.

This is by far the lowest point of my life. I made so many mistakes and I have been trying to mend them for years now. I'm so sorry for the mess that I have created. I understand no matter how depressed, stressed or whatever I was that I had no right to start a R with someone outside my M. I did not intend to. My wife did the same, but it was following my lead and now I feel that she will never get over my confronting OM and ending their friendship. I never would've confronted OM if I knew she still wanted him and regretted giving him up to return to our M for the kids sake. I thought she returned for the same reasons as I. To rebuild and make right what went so wrong. I don't know if there's any advice anyone can give me. I was an idiot, but I have grown since then. Is it too late to turn back time? Is it too late for me to save my marriage? Am I so many years too late that it is far beyond my reach? I thought I was a good man, but I am only now a good man, years ago I was not so good and not so loving to my W. If she wants out I must let her go and accept that it is my own doing that created this mess. She is now tired and does not want to try any longer and frankly I don't feel I have a right to ask her a darn thing considering how I behaved back then. I do still love her and I regret my mistakes, but she feels that her R with OM was not wrong. She feels that she deserved to do what she did and to maintain her bond with him. I am lost, but since she has left I must find a way to be here for my children. I am so disappiointed in myself. None of my present deeds or past deeds will erase the pain I caused her in my earlier days. What can I do now?

Now at least you know the reality and you can begin working from the truth of that. Until you face the brutal rality of the truth, any attmpts to deal with it would have been in vain.

Start from today and be the best you that you can be. Plan A. All is not lost. If you want your marriage don't give up. Keep plan Aing.
C&S

Oh my gosh Familymatters....your story is so similar to mine. But you must not take the full blame for this. Your W CHOSE to get involved with OM while she was still married to you....that is NEVER right. Two wrongs do not make a right. What you did is in the past, you have repented and changed. God has forgiven you, but your W obviously has not.

I'm not going to go into my story, but it is so much like yours. I have also changed myself...too late....the damage done. I am going into Plan B this weekend. My H blames me for our failed M. I did fail him 6 years ago, but he also failed me in many ways. He has punished me for my mistake for so long that I built up a wall of protection around myself. My emotional distance set the stage for him to CHOOSE to have an A. I do not believe it is all my fault, and neither should you.

Please take care and I will pray for you and your family.

The "answer", FM, is that all you can do, you can do now. You can't change the past, neither can she. You 2 can point fingers, be martyrs, whatever, but what use is that?

I'm fond of paraphrasing the gist of Eckhart Tolle's "The Power of Now" by saying that the past and fu2re do not exist, except in our memories and imaginations. THere is only NOW.

YOu were a "bad H" in the past? Well you are a good one now. Dwelling on past mistakes is unhealthy. Learning from past mistakes is healthy, but you have 2 recognize that memories fade and transform over time. And we all remember even the same events differently (except for that day the seagull crapped on the HS superintendent's new suit right in front of hundreds of us after lunch 35 years ago - we ALL remember that the same! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ).

Likewise, it does no good spending all your time and burning calories worrying about the fu2re. It hasn't happened yet. And when it does, it will be in the NOW anyway.

Everything you do, every thought you have, every plan you make, you do NOW. Not before, not someday. Now.

I know you feel despair over what's happening. It won't be easy, perhaps, but it is important that you do look around you, take stock of what you have (kids), who you are today, and cherish those things. You can't change your W, but you can continue 2 improve you.

I happen 2 like the man you are. I don't know the one you just described. He's in the past anyway, so it's not important that I know him. The man I read about here is an honorable, thoughtful, caring man.

Your integrity will sustain you.

-ol' 2long

... Don't ask me how, but I knew it (a part of it), felt it 'in the air'... or somewhere 'between the lines'...

We all made mistakes and we all had to pay them (or still paying)...

You cannot turn back time... you cannot erase what has been done... but you can redeem some of it - by being a good father to your kids, love, support and stability in their life...

And hope, hope that as it's never too late to become a better person to be proud of, it's never too late to restart Life... now based on self-cognition should make all the difference...

[ September 01, 2004, 11:44 PM: Message edited by: Belonging to Nowhere ]

PS:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I happen 2 like the man you are. I don't know the one you just described. He's in the past anyway, so it's not important that I know him.<hr /></blockquote>Same here.
You see the answer now, FM?

Hope this time now soon will be past for your W.
And you'll be even, to restart your life together again. ;-)

FM,

My W is very hurt and it is likely we will become divorced and it's all my fault.

Not all YOUR fault! You do not take 100% of the blame. It takes two.

And while you did something that was wrong, you are sorry and have repented. God's word says if you repent, he will fogive you.

In case you haven't read my zillions of posts to all my threads, I also had an A some years ago. Not a long one--at least the P/A part wasn't long. And NO intentions of leaving my spouse. But he knew, and it allowed him to have his first A without much guilt, because he blamed me for being the first to break the vows. I've beat myself up over it and other things that have happened. But the point is, I truly am sorry, I have asked for forgiveness from God and from my WH (or STBXH I guess he is now). I am trying hard to never put myself in situations that would lead me to where I went years ago. I am sorry. And I have to be able to let go of the guilt and move on now.

You do, too.

LL

FM, I also felt that your story was somehow incomplete.

I don't have all that much to add to the wisdom you've got from everybody (well except for 2long <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ), but anyway...

You're a fine man. You have overcome the mistakes of your past, but are still feeling their consequences. But 100% your fault if it ends? I know you must be thinking if I hadn't done this in the first place, etc. This type of thinking is useless to you, and it fools you into thinking you have such mastery of your world that if you are perfect, no harm will ever befall you. You need to let go of that part. You're here. Suck it up. There is nothing you can do about the past. Your regret can gain you nothing but the wisdom you've already taken from it.

Did that make ANY sense at all? Well, whatever, you are where you are, and you are who you are. If your M ends, you will have to accept your part in that, but never believe you have such power that everything is your fault.

Now, in my case, if my M ends, it is totally the fault of my WW. But I'm special. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Let's have you get through the emotions you're experiencing right now, and when you have a clear mind you can start planning for what comes next.

G'night,

GC

How are you, my friend? Long day, eh? You still breathing though, right? You--to emphasize ol2--right now, still are "Family Matters", right? Just checking. What's that?!?!? [Taking out my nerf 2X4}. What did I tell you?!?! Quit beating yourself up--that's why you have us! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> I'll get back to you in a sec...

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Belonging to Nowhere:
... Don't ask me how, but I knew it (a part of it), felt it 'in the air'... or somewhere 'between the lines'...<hr /></blockquote>[reaching to my right, grabbing the "real" one]: Get over yourself, BTN...this is not some f#$%ing game. I'm disappointed in your comment. Wasn't necessary.

...OK...feel a little better. Do you? I wish I knew how to double-quote. Woulda used most of what ol2 said. Quite frankly, don't care of who you *were*. Who are you now, FM? Now repeat after me: "I am Family Matters--NOW!" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> That is what matters--the here and now. I, too, don't know who you were several years ago. Honestly don't care (no offense <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .) But, I do know the man now. Good guy, strong, intelligent, big-a$$ heart to boot...(Deja vu...I said that not too long ago...Still holds true, FM.) I'm sorry your wife can't see that now.

Advice? Still don't think I'm in no ways able to give any. *Quit beating yourself up. You can probably kick the $hit out of yourself, anyway. That's no fun. *Keep at your plan. *And, something tells me you still didn't get to the doc to get some AD's.

Oh, keep your head up, friend.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> OMG!! FM is....

human.

You made some bad decisions in the past. You've acknowledged them and learned from them, right? (I think it's safe for me to answer my question with a big ol' yes there). Like everybody else has said, don't beat yourself up over it. Use what you've learned to help deal with the present.

And it's not all your fault.

And I think you've grown into a much better person since then. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thank you all for your kind words though I feel I don't deserve them. I have no words to describe my shame or my pain at this time. I know I must learn to forgive myself, but how can I? Once upon a time in a world far away a very special woman loved me adn I tore her heart out. While I was busy trying to be rescue others I lost my way home. She happened upon another man and fell in love. They had plans to marry. I earned her love back, or so I thought. She never let go of that OM and now I'm the bad man again, for tearing her heart out twice. I honestly never looked at it that way. I thought my present deeds had some negated my earlier stupidity and cruelty. I will pray for forgiveness again tonight as I've never prayed before. Family does matter it just took me too long to realize it and now I'm afraid nothing I do will can change her resentment. It's quite possible I'm the one who is in the fog. The fog of thinking I could redeem myself and restore my family. I am sorry for being so down, but I had no idea the reachings of her R with OM or how she truly felt about me. Once upon a time I was her best friend and protector, I relinquished my place and for what? At least she was on the verge of marrying OM, I had no intentions of M OW I was just too full of guilt to leave OW totally or return totally. It's hard to explain, but it's my story and I wish it wasn't.

{{{{{FM}}}}}

All I can do br'a.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by LINY:I wish I knew how to double-quote.<hr /></blockquote>Type [ QUOTE] (no space here) then text then (no space here either) [/QUOTE].

For a 'quote in quote': [ QUOTE] text [quote/]text [/QUOTE]

Or simply if you click on "reply with quote" above each message, you'll see how all of this looks like.

---
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />
My words were for FM!!... for I felt he would understand...
Right, FM? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

[ September 02, 2004, 06:09 AM: Message edited by: Belonging to Nowhere ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Belonging to Nowhere:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by LINY:I wish I knew how to double-quote.<hr /></blockquote>Type [ QUOTE] (no space here) then text then (no space here either) <hr /></blockquote>.

For a 'quote in quote': [ QUOTE] text [quote/]text [/QUOTE]

Or simply if you click on "reply with quote" above each message, you'll see how all of this looks like.

---
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />
My words were for FM!!... for I felt he would understand...
Right, FM? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> [/QUOTE]

Yes I do understand, it hurts but I understand...
no offense taken...At the moment I feel too low to be offended by anything other than the words pounding inside of my head. It'll be a couple days before outside digs will even resonate <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I do have one issue, which I did leave a message for my W and ask or eluded to I might say. If I had known how she felt and the full-extent of her R with OM then I wouldn't have expected so much. I have been working so hard over the last 2 years that we were back together. You people have no idea, her every wish was my command. She didn't even have to ask, if she even mentioned something like...hey I like the way the moon looks tonight, I was up all day trying to negotiate the stars to allow the moon to duplicate the exact position that struck her interest.

If I had only known how she felt I could have done somethings different, I also wouldn't have been kicking myself for the last 2 years wondering WHY isn't anything I'm doing really bringing us closer??? I know I made big mistakes in the past, I am not discounting the facts, all I'm trying to convey is when I wanted my family to reunite it wasn't just for the children. She tells me after banging my head for 2 years that she only did it for the children? I hope this is not too much of an LB coming from a FWH, but I really wish she would have told me when we could have sought counseling or tried to work on it. I feel like now she only tells me because she is GONE. I realize now that her wounds had been healed when we reconciled. I just wish I would have had an opportunity to know that when I could have been more supportive, more patient and more understanding. I feel like I just got fired from my dream job because of poor work performance, but I was never given a Job Description. Oh well I guess once you make a big mistake like mine it's pretty selfish to complain about truths. I have really no room to complain, but I am sorry that I didn't know. I didn't reconcile just for my children, I reconciled for HER and I as well. I still love her.

I would have rented a JEt and had them sky write that I loved her and I was so sorry, if I had known. I would have taken 2 months salary and took her to Italy and proposed again on my hands and knees at the leaning Tower of Pisa.

I cannot accept that she really believes her R with OM continuing during our reconciliation had nothing to do with her feeling that she only reconciled for the childrens sake. I have pictures of us laughing and smiling and loving each other during this time frame. I am beyond confused. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

FM,

We're all human. I have a couple of quick comments now and will write more tonight. Do you have ANY contact now with your OW? Next, there has been a thread about the pain of WS when they pierce the fog and realize the intense pain and destruction they have inflicted. It drifts quickly into dispare so keep your head right now. Dispare saps your strength and you feel unable to act or decide anything. ONE STEP at a time.

First, You KNOW the forgiveness of God so hit your knees and cry out to HIM. He will carry you through this low.

Second, It ain't even close to over. FAITH, HOPE and LOVE! Your W is in the fog now so realize the things she is saying is fog-talk. It's a rollercoaster...it will be up one day, down the next. Hang on for a ride, but it sounds like your wanting to make it to the end.

If she's staying to maintain "family" that's still good. The love between you two CAN re-ignite. Don't give up... Don't loose hope. It's a battle your in.

You have plenty of friends out here that will help and pray. Stay focused. One baby step at a time. Don't "Imagine" what might happen way down the road. It just causes "freak out" moments of panic. One step.

We only have today... tomorrow is just that.

{{{{{FM}}}}}

2scared

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by 2scared:
 FM,

have a couple of quick comments now and will write more tonight. Do you have ANY contact now with your OW? <hr /></blockquote>Absolutely NOT! I have blocked her phone numbers, blocked her email addresses. I have sent a no contact letter. It's my W who still wanted to stay in touch with her ex NOT me. I wanted this to work and I was not going to do anything to jeopardize that opportunity. I understand the FOG oh too well, look what FOG did to me, but when we agreed to reconcile I was like HERE"S MY CHANCE..look at me do the HAPPY MAN DANCE!

I shut out everything I had done, anyone I had seen during our separation. I narrowed my life down to ONE friend. A friend I've known for 15 years that my wife knows as well. A friend that used to berate me when I was in the FOG and entangled with OW. I have since even limited contact with him because he is so sad for me, it hurts him too much for me to discuss my M issues with him. Not to mention he is NOT M so he doesnt really grasp the WHY'S.

I will look for the thread that you speak of regarding the despair. I do feel it. I see the depths of her pain now. It's very difficult, mainly because she doesn't see her R while we were married as an A because we were separated and she asked for a divorce. The truth is she asked for the divorce when I asked if we could end the separation. I now know that she had been developing feelings for OM during our separation and when I wanted to return she had to chose and she chose OM. I cannot blame her because I sat on the fence for a long time, keeping her in limbo. I was wrong, she was wrong. I have no justification for my wrongs, but to her she does. Her justifications are my wrongs (at least to her).

I have many excuses but no justifications. Life is hard, I was young, I was depressed are all cop outs. I don't care who's right, I just want my M to survive. I don't mind carrying full responsibility for everything. I can handle it. I can eat crow, but I will not walk away without a fight. I've devoted the last 2 years of my life to saving this M and I can swallow my pride and accept she continued her R with OM during our reconciliation. I don't care about that at the moment. I care about this M surviving. I am very weary, I've read some posts from BW's here and many of them don't seem very encouraging for idiots like myself <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> I am not fogged into rationalizing anything and I've been trying to make amends for years now, even crimminals get released at some point and an opportunity to contribute to society right? Pepper, Orchid, Melody, 2Long, somebody please tell my W that I love her in the right words that I'm too thick headed to say correctly. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I didn't just end my A last week. I've made my decisions late but not that late. I've been fighting for an opportunity to be a good H for YEARS. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Cheers to you FM!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

* clink *

You can see clearly now!!

It may not be easy but nothing worthwhile ever is!

Regroup, start planning and SING !!!

I Can See Clearly Now
Jimmy Cliff
(Cool Runnings Soundtrack)

I can see clearly now the rain is gone
I can see all obstacles in my way
Gone are the dark clouds that had me blind
It's gonna be a bright, bright sunshinin' day
It's gonna be a bright, bright sunshinin' day

I think I can make it now the pain is gone
All of the bad feelings have disappeared
Here is the rainbow I've been praying for
It's gonna be a bright, bright sunshinin' day

Look all around, there's nothing but blue skies
Look straight ahead, there's nothing but blue skies

I can see clearly now the rain is gone
I can see all obstacles in my way
Gone are the dark clouds that had me blind
It's gonna be a bright, bright sunshinin' day
It's gonna be a bright, bright sunshinin' day
Real, real, real, real bright, bright sunshinin' day
Yeah, hey, it's gonna be a bright, bright sunshinin' day

WOW, FM, what good advice you are getting from your friends here at MB...If some of it could just penetrate your heart...especially IT IS NOT YOUR FAULT THAT YOUR W HAD AN AFFAIR AND KEPT IN CONTACT AFTER....and YOU ARE A GREAT GUY!

Some words that don't help us:
If only I'd....
I should have...
It's not fair...(Life isn't Fair.)

The past is the past....at the time, you were probably almost led or driven to have this affair...it happened! It's past and over....

Your wife is every bit as guilty...as they say here, "If just one person says NO, there would be no affairs..

All you can do is go on with your life the best you can and only you can decide what the BEST is for you.
Love, Julie <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

P.S. Your wife had a choice years ago...she could have simply forgiven you. She surely understands your affair, now that she has been fog-bound herself with an OM?????

FamilyMatters, I am so sorry for the pain and guilt you are going through right now. I understand that you are very disappointed and angry with yourself. Guilt can do you no good. I know that's easy to say and hard to let it go. But you have changed! You must believe in yourself right now. And you must believe that your current path of negotiating a reconciliation is the right one. I hesitate to bring up religion because I'm not sure if you believe in God or not. But if you do...give this one to God, FamilyMatters. You MUST have faith that He knows what is in your heart and is taking care of you and your family. I'm getting the feeling (and I might be wrong) that your current state of being is something that's pretty hard for you to handle right now. So let God help you. God has forgiven you. If you continue to relentlessly feel guilt, continue to relentlessly repent..well, what's He gonna do with that? He's already forgiven you and cannot help you forward until you take the first step. Try it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> And if you do not believe in God or have a strong faith, then let me know..grin..I'll give you my other thoughts.

FamilyMatters, you have the perspective of a spouse who has been betrayed, but who feels they caused that betrayal themselves. I think most of us feel that to a certain extent, but you're in a "tit for tat" situation--or at least that is how you and your wife seem to be viewing it. You know in your heart that there is no justification. You're not allowing yourself to justify, don't let your wife. Sometimes empathizing and understanding the actions of someone who is hurting you is very hurtful in itself.

I wish I had the right words for you.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Blessed TIME:


P.S. Your wife had a choice years ago...she could have simply forgiven you. She surely understands your affair, now that she has been fog-bound herself with an OM????? <hr /></blockquote>Thats eggzackly what I tried to express to her. I told her though this has hurt me its good to know that she can see how this can happen to a fundamentally good person like herself. The problem is she doesn't see her R with OM as an A?!?!? She sees her actions as justified, I'm the one who had an A not her. She has been steadfast in this. She doesnt regret sleeping with OM while M to me, she doesn't feel guilty about proposals of M while still M to me??? It's also possible she does feel it was wrong, but she's still upset that I revealed that me and her were living together to OM. I exposed her to OM that's why he ended their R. This is a dicey sitch. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

FM:

"I know I must learn to forgive myself, but how can I?"

I don't know if this will help or not, because I've only just started reading, but Spacecase got the author's permission 2 post Dr. Guy Pettit's ENTIRE book "The Heart of Healing", and some others, on his website at: http://iloveulove.com/forgiveness/hoh1.htm#THE_HEART_OF_HEALING_BOOK_

So far what I've read has been interesting and enlightening. An approach I hadn't been using enough in my own sitch. I wish my W would read it someday.

"Pepper, Orchid, Melody, 2Long, somebody please tell my W that I love her in the right words that I'm too thick headed to say correctly. "

Boy, if I knew what 2 say my problems would have been over long ago! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I'm still learning this stuff.

best,
-ol' 2long

OK FM, So now what ?

Whats the next step , back in PLAN B or are ya going another way ?

Unless I missed something , witch I guess I did ,, Why where ya talking to her anyway ???

OK so again whats the PLAN of action ?

I know your in a great deal of pain , but like you've talked about before , you been going at this for some time now .

I get it all , you feel guilty this is all your fault and stuff ,,, BUT we all know its not .

It takes 2 , just becasue you made a mistake , doesn't give her the GREEN to do the same .

2 wrongs do not make a RIGHT !!! (and all that jazz)

I admit I didn't read all responses ,, but some ,, and unless I missed something , I don't recall where you are in the PLAN situation .

OK just wanting to know what you are doing with all this and if you changing PLAN"S.

2Long, Maddy, 3isa, Blessed:
I don't know if I'm coming or going which way is up or if the cow jumped over the moon and ran away with the remote control <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

2Long I will definetly read that online book! I could definetly use a perspective on my guilt and how to release myself from this agony. I know that I have changed.

Maddy, yes friend I know I must learn to walk away from my past. I do believe in GOD, I am a christian and becoming more and more spiritual as this goes on, believe me.

Blessd, thank you for reminding me that it's not all my fault. I could hear that a 100 times and it would still be refreshing! The problem is my W was so trusting of me at one time and I know in my heart that I betrayed her trust and shaped the way she sees so many things. We started dating so YOUNG. We were together in high school. My W was my first real GF and I her first real BF. This could have been such a terrifick love story and now look at it, our love has become a bad made for tv movie <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

3isa, I was in Plan B. What started us talking was my W visited our home Tuesday and I emailed her to discuss her coming over because it was too painful for me to see her and I needed to retain my boundaries. Once the emailing started things derailed and I began to run my big mouth and ask questions. If you could see these answers, but I will not post them because I so want her to join this forum and not just "lurk". I wish she would comment and share with all of you, but she hasn't taken that step.

As for what plan I will take next? I don't have the foggiest. I never understood the depths of my W's pain until yesterday. I am still whirling from her honesty. I FELT HER CONFUSION, GRIEF AND SUFFERING FOR THE FIRST TIME and then it became a humongous wave washing over me. I cannot get my bearings around a plan. I am thinking Plan A again if she will agree to come home and recommit, but I doubt she will. Now that I understand her pain I realize we have never really dealt with so many issues. We are hurting each other repeatedly and I want it to stop. I hope she is only fogged because she has said somethings such as she doesn't see the ill-effects on her R with OM on our children?? I do! She doesn't see how her not being with me now is badly affecting the children either? I cannot pierce her fog. She will not let me in, the OM is a saint and I am the villian. Of course OW is a B&*$% in her book! To her OM was doing a hero's job of picking up the pieces. To me he was sleeping with my W in my home and even had the audacity to ask my W to marry him. I do not want to argue or drive her from me but she very easily justifies her R with OM and she sees her continued emotional attachment as just a FRIENDLY BOND? How is this just a friendly BOND? You used to sleep with him, he wanted to marry you? How can I be wrong for contacting him and telling him to back off, I was not reconciling just for the kids, I wanted my W back. She doesn't respect me I suppose, I am the bad guy and her M to me at the time of their R was inconsequential to the deep love they shared.

This is painful beyond belief and very unfair.

I am not intending to kick ya when feeling down BUT ,,,GOT to say this ,,,

HOW after having an A of your own and all the crap that goes with it ,,, is this the first time you UNDERSTAND and really see the depth of your W's PAIN >>>>

I am NOT justifing her A at all please understand that ...

But are you shore you defogged after your A ?
Or did you at the time justify it ?

All I am saying and I hope I am getting it out right is ,,, Being that you had an A ,, and then being the BS ,,,, THIS is the forst time you really UNDERSTOOD what your W was feeling ???

Again I am not bashing at all just trying to understand ...

SORRY if this is wong but JMO ,,, You still need to stay focused and make a PLAN ,,, the longer you sit around the more depressed you will become and the more nothing will get done ....

PLAN A ,, well if she comes back OM will still be in her life ,, can you deal with that ?

She may come back for just the kids again for the begining ,, can you live with that ????

Will she go to MC , even if she comes back for the kids its a start .

HAS she said , once and for all she wants a D ???

Is she fogged ? YES
Is she justifing her A ? YES
CAN she ? NO she still made a choice to deal with your A by having one of her own .

DOES she see this yet ? NO

BTN...With that said, then I owe you an apology. I let my emotions take over my fingers sometimes. (Where it was coming from...I am reading more and more members posting things where they write in a self-serving, "holier-than-tho", self-righteous way and it is really getting sickening. To top it off, it just sounded like you were kicking him while he was down. (I know how that feels.) It also stemmed from, it jst seems, everywhere I turn, I feel like my back is a aginst the wall--the other day I decided to start "fighting" back. With that said, it was inappropriate to take it out on you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> So, I apologize.

FM, I only breezed through the second page of your thread and I don't know if it was mentioned, but I remember reading that there was some good stuff (maybe a book?) about the revenge A. Maybe something to read.

I keep saying to myself, "This all sucks. It shouldn't be this hard!" I'm feeling for you, FM. I have that same "Knight in shining armor" complex. And, beating myself up.

I really am discombobulated today, so I gotta end here! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> Just wanted to let you know there's still a lot of support and friends still here for you.

FM,

Harley (and almost EVERY infidelity specialist) teaches us we are NOT at fault for our spouse's affair. We are accountable for our contribution for the conditions of our marriage that may have led to the affair but NOT their CHOICE to have an affair. I know you've read this a million times so far but you need to accept it.

Ok, so you talked to your W and rehashed the past. Today you are thinking about your conversation. Do you think she isn't? Don't you feel you may have gotten a few points in there? Given her something to think about today?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />

Originally posted by FamilyMatters:
Thank you all for your kind words though I feel I don't deserve them.

<hr /></blockquote>Try this on for size....

DO NOT say things ~about yourself~ that you would not be willing to say about others.

Would you ~ever~ say that another person does not "deserve" kindness because of past mistakes?

I highly doubt you would say this.

Remember, kindness is not "deserved" by anyone much of the time. Kindness is offered like a gift, free of charge.

If you persist on the "I don't deserve your kindness" bit .... I will say this to you ... this is a VERY prideful remark! Yes, PRIDEFUL!.

My personal past erroneous ways are not any less stupid than yours. Different, but equally wrong.

If you "don't deserve" kindness, than neither do I. Neither does 2Long. Neither does Bob Pure, Neither does Believer. Not one single MB member is deserving of kindness.... if you are not.

You cannot place your past sins into a different level of wrongness from mine. If you do, it is an act of pridefulness.

GOT THAT???

You are just like the rest of us. Sinners. Stupid some days. Smart some days.

Your journey begins now.

Accept the kindness of others and be glad, because it humbles you, and because it gives us hope that we too deserve kindness.... no matter what.

Love,

Pep

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by 3isacrowd:

But are you shore you defogged after your A ?
Or did you at the time justify it ?

<hr /></blockquote>Defogged? I saw the damage this A did to my life almost 5 years ago. That's when I accepted my responsibility for my A. We have been reconciled for 2 years, living in the same home but I had tried and tried before then to reconcile.

You misunderstood me: until yesterday I was no longer looking at my W's pain from my A. After she emailed me answering some of my questions I realized for her it's as if my A took place last week! She was that upset, that cruel, that much in pain. She must be in pain to say that her R with OM was justified. I do not think that its just FOG but also pain. My questions to her were not broad they were very SPECIFIC. Here's 2 such questions and answer from her email:

Let me preface to see these questions came up because she said I was making her feel guilty. I wanted to know what she felt guilty about and I though direct questions work best. I did not get the responses I was expecting:

Do you feel guilty about the feelings you have for another man besides your husband?

I can’t help how I feel, so no.

Do you feel guilty because you didn't break this relationship off with this other man once you noticed it was improper?

I never felt it was improper – we never did anything that was improper.

Here are my answers to the same questions put in the past tense for me of course:

Do you feel guilty about the feelings you had for another woman besides your wife?

Yes! I have long realized that I was looking for an escape from my own pain and built this OW up to be my solutions to that pain. I felt guilty at the time for my actions and I still guilty to this day about what I did to my marriage and my family!

Do you feel guilty because you didn't break this relationship off with this other woman once you noticed it was improper?

YES! It is one of the biggest mistakes, NO it is the biggest mistake I've made in my LIFE! I should have ended the R when things became improper but I thought there was no harm. I was never more wrong, and once I became swept up in it I was LOST. I don't know if my W can ever understand this, but I did not set out to have an A. It was tiny steps with each encounter and I regret it very much.

See what I mean? After I read these answers I realized that she must STILL be going thru very deep agony and resentment over my cruel actions YEARS AGO. She is so upset and unflinchable that she must be either very bitter of very cruel. My W is not cruel at all. She is a very warm person by nature so I concluded she is very bitter and what caused her bitterness? ME and my affair.

I knew she was hurt, betrayed and wounded, but this is years after the fact. She is still hurt, betrayed and wounded. I hope you understand that I am TOTALLY DEFOGGED! I am beyond DEFOGGED I am even sympathetic of my W's FOG to the point I ignore my own pain that she inflicts WILLINGLY and with NO REMORSE. She feels NO GUILT. Dr. Harley talked about this in "What to do with an Unfaithful Wife Letter 2 "

[I}Even though you have been very hurt by her affair, don't blame her for it. Don't expect her to apologize and don't ask her to explain the gory details.

She is probably suffering depression over the relationship not working out. It's a common symptom of withdrawal. She will want to talk to someone about how badly she feels. Try to be the one she confides in, even if what she says is how much she misses this other man. DON'T JUDGE HER! If you do, she simply won't open up to you. If you can't handle it, she should talk to a friend or a counselor, but don't risk losing her by venting your anger or your judgment on her. [/I]

This is what I think I should do, it will not be easy, but I think its my only real option. Plan B is what she wants because she is TIRED and she won't have to commit to anything. She would love Plan B I think and our M will END if I follow it. In her state of mind I think she feels it's just too much effort to work on our issues and since she is still going thru withdrawal from OM, it would suffice to say; I'm not her favorite person right now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

[ September 02, 2004, 10:26 AM: Message edited by: FamilyMatters ]

Now she is telling me this:

I just want you to be happy and
enjoy your life. I complicate things.

She is quitting on me and our M. Why did she tell me all this answers to all the questions just to QUIT AGAIN. She told me time is a great healer. Time did not heal her, OM healed her and while she was here going thru withdrawal I tended to her. I went to the counselor with her, I worried about her over medicationing, I took away her prescription and rationed it because she was abusing it. I phoned her job and spoke with her employer. I took care of the children and tried to be as supportive as I could. Now she is breaking my heart and she says...OH TIME WILL TAKE CARE OF IT, I KNOW.

I just want out of this pain, she says she cares for me and always will but she doesnt want to come back. I feel very used and stupid for all my trying to mend my family. She will not check in here and post probably because she doesnt want to hear anyone say, Your Husband loves you, you should work on your M. She wants to take the path of least resistance.

Liny... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Thanks!

(Sometimes I do sound different (to people who don’t know me) than my thoughts and intentions are, but I do always post with no bad intentions...)

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by FamilyMatters:
Yes I do understand, it hurts but I understand...
no offense taken...<hr /></blockquote>I knew you would. Good.

It hurts? Good too.
Whenever we learn more about inner ourselves or begin seeing parts of us the way they really are (and which usually we (sub)consciously close our eyes when faced to for not liking to See them), it hurts.
This means you are on the right path!

I do hope your W will recognize a new yourself and come back Home.

You’ve got really good advise her; follow them, follow your heart and pray.
God bless!

I was so busy typing and falling apart I failed to see how much of an outpouring of love is here. I thank you all for showing me such compassion. I truly appreciate the kindnees and understanding that has been extended to me. Its just hard to accept all that I have been hit with over the last 24 hours. I tired so hard to reshape my W's view of me, but in the end if she cannot have OM she doesn't want to be in our home. I don't even think she sees how selfishly fogged out that action is, but I must accept it. I am where I started. Yes I have made mistakes but as you kind people have reminded me I have learned from mine. My W will have to learn from hers, and until she sees sleeping with OM while being my wife is wrong, until she feels that our M is valuable, important, worth cherishing and a gift from GOD that there is nothing I can do for her or our marriage. I am a much wiser man and a more compassionate man. I will extend her the compassion that she did not extend me and my deeds will return to me with blessings. You are all so right, I must lay my burden down and concern myself with today. Today is all I have and I should not live in the past. I have asked her to post here and she has refused. She is running away which is an action of hers I know oh too well. Our M is too important to avoid it as if it's an unpleasent smell or a seedy part of town. I aim to do some disenfecting and to revitalize the neighborhood. She is not on board and chooses to justify it by copping out on me and our family. I used to know this woman very well, and she was much more well-intentioned and warm. This new lady whom bears resemblence to my W is not my W at all. My W loved me and wanted nothing more than to bring beautiful babies into the world and sit on a rocking chair and catch a cool breeze 40 years from now as our great grandchildren crawled to and fro us like butterflies. This new woman, this replica is not my W, and I will try to wait to see if the real Mrs. Matters will stand up again.

sincerely,

FM

I didn't sleep last night. No, please allow me to rephrase, I could not find sleep. Today has been a swriling of emotional pitfalls and a humbling acceptance of my own weakenesses and humaneness. I did finally take a nap at about 12:30 this afternoon. I had my alarm clock set for 2:10, as I was to meet my son at the school bus stop at 2:30 sharp (he's 6 and in 1st grade). When I awoke I was very groggy, you can imagine when you've only gotten a hour and half sleep in over a 24 hour period. I searched for my keys which were hidden in plain sight of course, I did however find them at 2:33 and raced out the door to gather my son. I saw many children and kept sifting thru there smiling faces searching for my little piece of sunshine. I could not find him among them so I raced to the rear of our home hoping he went to the back door. Then I ran around to the front door even more panicky now, my heart pounding. I still could not find my son. The fear of every horrible, terrible, unimaginable, adrenaline covered desperation engulfed me. Where is my son! Finally I spotted him walking lonely down the sidewalk. Shaking I ran to him and hugged him. I was so relieved and terrified at the same time. He had chosen to walk home he said. He was visibly shaken by emotional state of desperation so I clamored to compose myself and calmly explained how the bus is there for all the kids and daddys to be sure they return to each other safely. I tell you all this story because it is my reminder that though I am swept up in the destructive hurricane of my W's absence from my life, I must remember at all costs, at each dip in the rollercoaster, that there are 2 people who are totally innocent from all of this upheavel: My children.

I will remind myself that GOD has placed them in my care and that there are far worse things than losing my W. There are also far worse things the constant self-pounding that I routinely have delivered in search of my own atonement for my contribution to my W's A, her fog and her indecision to recover our M. There are my children and their safety, their well-being, their smiling faces that I intend to preserve through all of this. My son has just reminded me that there are things to be grateful for, precious things to thank my GOD for and though I could not protect my M from this A I can do what is humanely possible to protect my children from the side-effects and the debris of this indfidelity hurricane that tosses my emotions into the whirling, twirling winds of regret, pain and loss. I must remember I am not free to indulge in self-loathing, self-pity or self-condmenation. There is much left to do and there's a bigger picture that desperately demands my attention and they are; my children, my health and my faith in GOD.

Thank you LORD for my children's health, safety and love.

[ September 02, 2004, 02:29 PM: Message edited by: FamilyMatters ]

FM....I just read every single post. I wasn't on long enough yesterday, but I'll tell ya man - I witnessed a transformation from beginning to where you were hugging your DS. I actually feel my heartbeat outside of my chest.....

You continue to prove that "the 25yr old FM" is not "the FM we all know". You, my distant friend and experienced one, and your family will be in my prayers tonight. I've read over the last week or so some differing opinions regarding what is taught here at MB. Different philosophies from other sites, other counselors, etc. With all the posts you received, I'm pretty sure most of it hit home (I was moved by 98% of it) and the only thing I want to add is "those who say it can't be done should get out of the way of those of us who are doing it!"

Keep the faith FM. Your head is held high, your convictions are strong and you know what matters - family.....God Bless FM......LS

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by lostsailor:
 FM....I just read every single post. I wasn't on long enough yesterday, but I'll tell ya man - I witnessed a transformation from beginning to where you were hugging your DS. I actually feel my heartbeat outside of my chest.....

You continue to prove that "the 25yr old FM" is not "the FM we all know". God Bless FM......LS <hr /></blockquote>Lost,
Thanks friend! Now that my emotions have subsided a bit, I'm able to see things for what they are. I am where I was before my W hit me with a litany of justfifications for her actions and HER continued contact with OM and LEAVING OUR home are not JUSTIFIED. Her reasoning, though genuine and at least partially fueled due to feelings of betrayal by me, are nevertheless hollow-FOGGY irresponsible rationalizations. I am back on board now! I realize the reality of my situation, and putting aside all the drama and excitement it is as 3isa stated....
certain points remain :
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by 3isacrowd:


You still need to stay focused and make a PLAN ,,, the longer you sit around the more depressed you will become and the more nothing will get done ....

PLAN A ,, well if she comes back OM will still be in her life ,, can you deal with that ?

She may come back for just the kids again for the begining ,, can you live with that ????

Will she go to MC , even if she comes back for the kids its a start .

HAS she said , once and for all she wants a D ???

Is she fogged ? YES
Is she justifing her A ? YES
CAN she ? NO she still made a choice to deal with your A by having one of her own .

DOES she see this yet ? NO <hr /></blockquote>Thank you 3isa! I need to make a PLAN, though I more fully understand my W's reasons for her actions and how my previous actions have contributed to her A, that has very little to do with her current choices. I also see that her clobbering me with much of her resentment may have been an attempt to back me off so she can continue with her destructive actions.

I will regroup tonight and choose a PLAN for my life and the well-being of my children. My W though somewhat bitter, is no BLIND WOMAN and she has seen over the last few years that I have changed very much! She knows this, it is her who has not changed. A's do very damaging things to not only the offending S but the offender, changes in conviction, character and all and out demon position. Yes ROBBY, I can see clearly now the rain is GONE! And I see based on my own experiences that she is still very FOGGED and that I will have to continue on with life and the business of providing my children with a loving environment. She will regret her decisions and lowly actions, just like I did, NOT NOW, but LATER, You would think her being a former BS would help her understand her OWN actions better and SEE the damage she is CAUSING, I know my experiences as a FWS have helped me better UNDERSTAND and DEAL with her ACTIONS. It's time to get back in the saddle and do what MUST be DONE. PEPPER thanks for the 2X4, GRAY as WELL! LINY you always keep a 2X4 handy, I am not so full of pride to think all of M issues are ONLY my creation. I am HUMAN, I made mistakes and I will move on pass them now. The issue remains:

My W is not home,
She feels she's done, and is DOING nothing wrong.
She stopped going to her IC
She is still very FOGGED
I am at home with our CHILDREN
I am not repeating this vicious cycle, she is!
It's time for a PLAN and a <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> !

[ September 02, 2004, 09:12 PM: Message edited by: FamilyMatters ]